SWTOR is failing due to its F2P model, that is the only reason.
Just thought I'd point out, anyone who suggests SWTOR is "failing" is working off of false information, or doesn't understand what "failing" means.
SWTOR currently has just under 500k subscriptions and their monthly revenues since going f2p have more than doubled.
For reference, STO never reported over 110k subs or so even before it went f2p. I'd be happy to hear from a dev what the current numbers are for STO but I don't think we'll hear it.
SWTOR is a good point of proof though; claiming people don't want to play the "bad" guys is simply not true. If Cryptic wants to gut Romulans to force them into their happy story mold, that's up to them, but they need to have a better reason than the fact that the Tal Shiar are "bad".
Just thought I'd point out, anyone who suggests SWTOR is "failing" is working off of false information, or doesn't understand what "failing" means.
SWTOR currently has just under 500k subscriptions and their monthly revenues since going f2p have more than doubled.
For reference, STO never reported over 110k subs or so even before it went f2p. I'd be happy to hear from a dev what the current numbers are for STO but I don't think we'll hear it.
SWTOR is a good point of proof though; claiming people don't want to play the "bad" guys is simply not true. If Cryptic wants to gut Romulans to force them into their happy story mold, that's up to them, but they need to have a better reason than the fact that the Tal Shiar are "bad".
So what do you want, spy missions into the Federation and KDF ?
The Romulans are rebuilding after a supernova kinda took out much of their base.
I don't see the happy go lucky Romulans you do.
Sure they co-operate with the KDF or UFofP, however, conanically they were ALREADY working with The Federation after Shinzon's coup and destruction of their Senate.
Many of you are good at coming from the negative, but not from the positive.
Exactly, And Romans were devoted to the STATE. It was more important to self.
They still are...
You said you can not disagree with D'Tan on the unification with the Vulcans. That is wrong. You can and you reassert this notion with the Sub-commander Tomeer*sp? again later, in the beginning too.
D'Tan and his faction (canonically) were the strongest faction of the RSE left next to the TalShiar. After all, most of them were in hiding.
Or are you going to tell me, no one should be able to play as a Reman? After all pre-Shinzon they were a slave race, Pre-the whole senate being killed off, they were slaves, etc.
The Romulans you "know" died in Nemesis, were further estranged by the supernova, and now are fractured.
The Romulan Republic you see is the RSE being reborn from those events. No they aren't as xenophobic, but still hold themselves superior to everyone.
So what do you want, spy missions into the Federation and KDF ?
yes! And sabotage! And plots to get the Feds and Klingons fighting more. Slave uprisings. Putting down warlords. Funding Gorn Seperatists to weaken the Klingons. Helping the True way so we can dimish Fed influence in those sectors. Getting rid of Hirogens. Setting D'Tan up to fail.
Where would you change it?
more or less ALL of it. From the moment I waved to the yehaws from my porch in the opening 30 seconds my stomach started turning. get rid of the Farm.
I want no part of ther Republic so I dont really want to scout their new planet. Or be involved in anyway with its founding.
I would also delete the Alien choice from the character creator as its offensive to any Romulan.
Thats for starters.
But then I would have made us an actual faction too. And not added insult to injury by making us join the Feds or Klingons.
From the writing and dialogue and silly scarves, I feel like many people working on this have never even seen a Romulan. or have any clue what the player base was expecting and wanting.
Even as Fed, the minute I got to the bunnies on New Romulas, I beamed out never to return.
This entire "refugee" nonsense 20 years after the fact is balderdash. Without fusion power and replicators they chinese have built entirely new cities for millions of people in the same time.
People would not be going around wearing rags worrying about their next meal.
It's almost like a society built on paranoia and betrayal and centralized power is having problems cooperating now that the overlords are gone. Imagine that.
Nevermind the years of infighting that have been going on, or the invasion by the Klingons after Hobus, or the near civil war over the massive reforms that have had to be passed by the rapidly disintegrating and increasingly illegitimate state.
Exactly, And Romans were devoted to the STATE. It was more important to self.
The idea that all Romulans just LOVED fascism is the blandly predictable propaganda that every single fascist state uses. Name one tyrannical state that DOESN'T say that all of their people put the state ahead of themselves out of sheer love. If that was true, there wouldn't need to be a Tal Shiar to "keep the people loyal." TNG pretty much disproves this entire idea repeatedly simply by introducing the idea of reunificationists or defectors at all.
That's like earnestly believing that every single Iraqi voted for Saddam Hussien at every election because their sincerely wanted him to be president. It had nothing to do with the secret police monitoring the voting AT ALL, right?
yes! And sabotage! And plots to get the Feds and Klingons fighting more. Slave uprisings. Putting down warlords. Funding Gorn Seperatists to weaken the Klingons. Helping the True way so we can dimish Fed influence in those sectors. Getting rid of Hirogens. Setting D'Tan up to fail.
But then I would have made us an actual faction too. And not added insult to injury by making us join the Feds or Klingons.
See this is again showing a lack of an ability to read.
You do not join them, in exchange for some of the Romulan Technology and some of our "military might", the Federation and KDF fight against the TalShiar and recognize the Romulan Republic as a real entity.
See China, Taiwan and the United States for some ideas of HOW this could be played out.
From the writing and dialogue and silly scarves, I feel like many people working on this have never even seen a Romulan. or have any clue what the player base was expecting and wanting.
I dunno seems like you aren't doing much reading.
Why don't you tell me what was happening on Romulus before the supernova for a decade after Shinzon was killed?
D'Tan and his faction (canonically) were the strongest faction of the RSE left next to the TalShiar. After all, most of them were in hiding.
there is no "canon" on this really. it was a small subsection of the population in one episode so Nimoy's ego could make an appearence.
The only "canon" is that Romulas was destroyed.
The part of the "history" is borrowed from a couple of books and the rest made up completely by who ever is writing for cryptic at the time.
So the few people who are dissatified can join D'Tan. I and many others are not in that catagory. D'Tan is free to do whatever. Just dont force us to be a part of it
there is no "canon" on this really. it was a small subsection of the population in one episode so Nimoy's ego could make an appearence.
The only "canon" is that Romulas was destroyed.
The part of the "history" is borrowed from a couple of books and the rest made up completely by who ever is writing for cryptic at the time.
So the few people who are dissatified can join D'Tan. I and many others are not in that catagory. D'Tan is free to do whatever. Just dont force us to be a part of it
See this is again showing a lack of an ability to read.
You do not join them, in exchange for some of the Romulan Technology and some of our "military might", the Federation and KDF fight against the TalShiar and recognize the Romulan Republic as a real entity.
ummm.... the point is that many of us dont care about what D'Tan needs. Only if you follow D'Tan does any of that matter. I dont care if the republic gets recognized.
And its treason to share our technology with aliens. And especially the Feds or Klingons. Many of us have issue with that. I dont need to be helping either side.
If you dont buy into what D'Tan is selling then all the other talking points are irrelevant.
My only hope is he is just a con man and its all a clever ploy to get the Feds and Klingons to build stuff for us before we run them out of the area.
So the few people who are dissatified can join D'Tan. I and many others are not in that catagory. D'Tan is free to do whatever. Just dont force us to be a part of it
You can still run off to roleplay or the Foundry and make your own campaign in which you villainously twirl your mustache. They have even given the players the Tal Shiar uniforms and prefix to help that, which even I thought was a great touch.
You really shouldn't be so offended that they took the game's story in another direction that it literally turns your stomach. That's getting less "roleplay" and more "creepy", and I say that as a roleplayer of many years.
there is no "canon" on this really. it was a small subsection of the population in one episode so Nimoy's ego could make an appearence.
The only "canon" is that Romulas was destroyed.
The part of the "history" is borrowed from a couple of books and the rest made up completely by who ever is writing for cryptic at the time.
So the few people who are dissatified can join D'Tan. I and many others are not in that catagory. D'Tan is free to do whatever. Just dont force us to be a part of it
yYah, funny when peopel talk about 'canon' in relation to STO. If we are going by 'canon' we wouldn't have any Borg, Sela and Taris would both be dead etc etc. There's a lot of bad 'canon' floating around the Star Trek universe due to an over-bloated expanded universe thanks to the numerous books, comics, etc etc. Cryptic decided to take some creative liberty with some regards to the canon, (and who can blame them with that decision) however, a lot of their decisions are questionable at best, particularly in regards to their handling of Romulans. If they wanted to stay 'true' to the movies that is, destroy Romulus) then their commitment to messing with the Romulans needn't go any further than destroying the homeworld.
The Klingons had their homeworld made virtually uninhabitable thanks to the destruction of their moon, but by the time of TNG (and indeed, much earleir) they had rebounded and were stronger than ever. That's obviously the sort of thing that made klingon fans very happy. Imagine if instead all we had were rag-clothed klingon refugees showing up every now and again kowtowing to federation and Romulans and wishing to only live in peace?
And I don't get why people keep stating that this change of governemnt, culture, etc was 'inevitable' or such nonsense. After all, the Romulan Republic was a rather new development-added in just last year. Before that there were no 'rebel' Romulans (unless you count the now-retconned rather blatent hints that the Tal'Shiar was a Rogue element and was at odds with Sela's regime) The Romulans were heading back towards an era of stability and strength. Diplomacy in place of brute force was outright stated to be a tool that Sela prefered to use in the reunification of the RSE.
Compare that to the situation after all of these retcons by Cryptic starting with the New Romulus expansion-it's a completely different picture. Brute force is now the *only* language the Empress speaks, who has gone from being anti-Tal Shiar to actually working with them on all of their deepest, darkest schemes. Instead of a few miners beign taken advantage of on the periphrials of the Emprie by Ferengi etc, we have everyone living in fear that The Tal Shiar might just swoop in and massacre them for no reason. (a far cry from Sela's 'diplomacy' mentioned in the previous material)
Fact of the matter is, Cryptic already laid the foundation for a RSE that was stable, recovering, and stayed true to the well-known flavor of Romulans we have known across TNG/DS9 & VOY. This is the Romulan faction that we could have played-one that didn't need to bow knee to their former enemies, (Iconians don't count, since the Empress was not aware of the Tal Shiar's role) that still allowed for a 'rebuilding' storyline, let us play as classic Romulans instead of ones inspired by the Bajorans and Rebel Alliance. (outright stated by the devs) and wouldn't have left the vibe that one was playign a third-rate power/boarderline protectorate.
it would have actually taken less effort to have written a faction for the RSE pre-New Romulus than for Cryptic's new 'reinvention', so any statements that the Romulan Republic makes more 'sense' given the circumstances fall flat considering that Cryptic had to basically retcon the whole Romulan backstory to make room for these faux-romulans.
The Klingons had their homeworld made virtually uninhabitable thanks to the destruction of their moon, but by the time of TNG (and indeed, much earleir) they had rebounded and were stronger than ever. That's obviously the sort of thing that made klingon fans very happy. Imagine if instead all we had were rag-clothed klingon refugees showing up every now and again kowtowing to federation and Romulans and wishing to only live in peace?
Read the Road to 2409. There was /never/ a stable Empire after Hobus. The very week Romulus was destroyed, the Klingons sent a fleet to conquer and enslave every Romulan they could find. Praetor Dontara was assimilated and the Narrada was made from Borg technology, so obviously the Borg attacked the Empire, and the Tal Shiar covered it up. They've had to end the slavery of the Remans and develop a new, slavery free society, all while shouldering the burden of building up Rator 3.
There have been frequent assassinations and infighting at the highest levels. Taris, the leader of the Empire, just vanished one day and never came back. Sela clawed her way to power only a few years ago, taking the long default title of Empress. After she vanishes, whatever is left is bound to fall into infighting and civil war.
There are references to Sela brutalizing her own people in the original Fed missions. Plenty of them. The idea of a large, stable Romulan Empire is a misconception.
Read the Road to 2409. There was /never/ a stable Empire after Hobus. The very week Romulus was destroyed, the Klingons sent a fleet to conquer and enslave every Romulan they could find. Praetor Dontara was assimilated and the Narrada was made from Borg technology, so obviously the Borg attacked the Empire, and the Tal Shiar covered it up. They've had to end the slavery of the Remans and develop a new, slavery free society, all while shouldering the burden of building up Rator 3.
There have been frequent assassinations and infighting at the highest levels. Taris, the leader of the Empire, just vanished one day and never came back. Sela clawed her way to power only a few years ago, taking the long default title of Empress. After she vanishes, whatever is left is bound to fall into infighting and civil war.
There are references to Sela brutalizing her own people in the original Fed missions. Plenty of them. The idea of a large, stable Romulan Empire is a misconception.
Did you actually read any further than the second paragraph? I have read the road to 2409, adn that's what I was basing my entire argument on. Read Sela's parts. She has large support among the general populace, is heralding in a new age of recovery and stability for the Empire, and is using more non-violent means for re-integrating Romulan colonies into the Empire than any of her predecessors. And lastly, she hates the Tal Shiar (if you couldn't gather that just from doing the Romulan arc already) and really had little reason to tolerate them, much less be in on their plans considering what they did to her.
Again, Cryptic did soem rather substantial retcons in order to get this Romulan Republic faction to fly.
ummm.... the point is that many of us dont care about what D'Tan needs. Only if you follow D'Tan does any of that matter. I dont care if the republic gets recognized.
And its treason to share our technology with aliens. And especially the Feds or Klingons. Many of us have issue with that. I dont need to be helping either side.
So the early Romulan-Klingon Alliance that gave the Klingons cloaking technology never happened?
Or the Defiant? Oh monsieur woe is you.
Again you speak from a negative vacuum lacking in scope and breath of cannon.
If you dont buy into what D'Tan is selling then all the other talking points are irrelevant.
Guess what, in the Tutorial that is a response you can actually give... interesting eh? "I don't want any part of this war" in the context of the Romulan Republic and TalShiar. Yes you do have to go with them but under the pretext of "for now" as a choice.
My only hope is he is just a con man and its all a clever ploy to get the Feds and Klingons to build stuff for us before we run them out of the area.
D'Tan is just one man in the Romulan Republic and doesn't so far seem to seek out to be Praetor (as in "Ceasar").
FYI, D'Tan wants to rebuild the Romulan Republic to keep the culture and heritage before even talking about peace with the Vulcans and Remans. That's nearly an exact quote from the dialogue.
Really, it's been fun. All I have left for you is personal insults at this point and that gets neither of us anywhere.
Read the Road to 2409. There was /never/ a stable Empire after Hobus. The very week Romulus was destroyed, the Klingons sent a fleet to conquer and enslave every Romulan they could find. Praetor Dontara was assimilated and the Narrada was made from Borg technology, so obviously the Borg attacked the Empire, and the Tal Shiar covered it up. They've had to end the slavery of the Remans and develop a new, slavery free society, all while shouldering the burden of building up Rator 3.
There have been frequent assassinations and infighting at the highest levels. Taris, the leader of the Empire, just vanished one day and never came back. Sela clawed her way to power only a few years ago, taking the long default title of Empress. After she vanishes, whatever is left is bound to fall into infighting and civil war.
There are references to Sela brutalizing her own people in the original Fed missions. Plenty of them. The idea of a large, stable Romulan Empire is a misconception.
A lot of people forget you confront Sela and then an Iconian ship toes her away, in the Federation story line.
She has large support among the general populace, is heralding in a new age of recovery and stability for the Empire, and is using more non-violent means for re-integrating Romulan colonies into the Empire than any of her predecessors.
Right, and when you get to actually see that "recovery and stability", it involves using biological weapons on Romulan colonies and outright attacking anyone who thinks of leaving (and plenty of planets along the neutral zone are) because the Romulan Empire is still collapsing even with her in charge.
Gee, I don't know why so many people aren't loyal to the state anymore.
And lastly, she hates the Tal Shiar (if you couldn't gather that just from doing the Romulan arc already) and really had little reason to tolerate them, much less be in on their plans considering what they did to her.
In Unification, she's working with "Romulan Intelligence" to invade Vulcan. She's always been part of the Tal Shiar, even on the show. That doesn't mean she can't hate them, of course, but it's never been said that she's tossed them out of power.
A lot of people forget you confront Sela and then an Iconian ship toes her away, in the Federation story line.
Aparently you forget that she was responding to a military invasion of Romulan space, and that in the debriefing of the mission, it's questioned whether she went willingly, or if the Iconians were jsut being opportunistic and abducted her-which would be mroe in line with what we know from the background material and dialogues in previous missions where it is firmly established that she has a strong dislike for the Tal Shiar and would likely be the last person to collaborate with them.
Did you actually read any further than the second paragraph? I have read the road to 2409, adn that's what I was basing my entire argument on. Read Sela's parts. She has large support among the general populace, is heralding in a new age of recovery and stability for the Empire, and is using more non-violent means for re-integrating Romulan colonies into the Empire than any of her predecessors. And lastly, she hates the Tal Shiar (if you couldn't gather that just from doing the Romulan arc already) and really had little reason to tolerate them, much less be in on their plans considering what they did to her.
Again, Cryptic did soem rather substantial retcons in order to get this Romulan Republic faction to fly.
Really it just comes down to a vacuum of what really did happen between Nemesis and JJ Abrams' Star Trek on Romulus.
Donatra, Tu'laura, D'Tan and Sela are the "figureheads" we could speculate about.
STO/Cryptic went with D'Tan and the unification underground.
Sela has an odd relationship with the TalShiar (Unification 1 & 2 TNG), but is very against the unification of Vulcans and Romulans.
So it makes "some sense" how we have what we have in STO, Sela is shown to have no remorse in killing her own people too.
Right, and when you get to actually see that "recovery and stability", it involves using biological weapons on Romulan colonies and outright attacking anyone who thinks of leaving (and plenty of planets along the neutral zone are) because the Romulan Empire is still collapsing even with her in charge.
Gee, I don't know why so many people aren't loyal to the state anymore..
Romulan rule has never been 'nice'. Sela is just better than all of the other Caligua's that have come before her in recent memory.
As to why they would be loyal? Even in TNG, during the two instances where Romulans defect to the Federation, they do it out of what they interpruet as loyalty to the Empire. They aren't defecting because the grass is greener on the other side of the neutral zone, but because they want a better situation for the RSE.
In Unification, she's working with "Romulan Intelligence" to invade Vulcan. She's always been part of the Tal Shiar, even on the show. That doesn't mean she can't hate them, of course, but it's never been said that she's tossed them out of power. .
It's also possible that they were seperate entities. After all, 'Tal Shiar' is only mentioned in exactly one episode of TNG.
At any rate, in STO, they seem to have goen with the idea that she was either never a member, or was kicked out a long tiem before the events of STO when she was banished. There's a lot of bad blood between them
Aparently you forget that she was responding to a military invasion of Romulan space, and that in the debriefing of the mission, it's questioned whether she went willingly, or if the Iconians were jsut being opportunistic and abducted her-which would be mroe in line with what we know from the background material and dialogues in previous missions where it is firmly established that she has a strong dislike for the Tal Shiar and would likely be the last person to collaborate with them.
No I didn't and I will grant you, the question of did she know? or not know of the gates being built could be questioned.
I understand with the TalShiar (before the supernova) exiling her would be a damper on them but they established in STO they are one of the fractured RSE factions who are the strongest left over. Sela probably would see no quarrel using them as Empress after all use of the Hirogen led her to conquer the TalShiar.
Romulan rule has never been 'nice'. Sela is just better than all of the other Caligua's that have come before her in recent memory.
The difference being that unlike the previous rulers, Sela doesn't have the military and social control to keep them loyal (particularly if she's been at odds with the Tal Shiar).
As to why they would be loyal? Even in TNG, during the two instances where Romulans defect to the Federation, they do it out of what they interpruet as loyalty to the Empire. They aren't defecting because the grass is greener on the other side of the neutral zone, but because they want a better situation for the RSE.
That's what the Romulan Republic wants.
It's also possible that they were seperate entities. After all, 'Tal Shiar' is only mentioned in exactly one episode of TNG.
That same episode mentions that the Tal Shiar are "the Romulan intelligence agency".
I acknowledge that they've retconned Sela's relationship with them with regards to STO, but I don't think that it ever effected anything before. It may have made Sela a bit more innocent regarding the Iconians, but we still don't know if she actually was working with them, or if Hakeev was going behind her back.
I'm far more upset about retconning Taris, because I always had a pet fan theory that she and the Tal Shiar were ordered by the Iconians to use Shinzon to destroy Earth in Nemesis, and now I'm not sure that can be true. Ah well.
Read the Road to 2409. There was /never/ a stable Empire after Hobus. The very week Romulus was destroyed, the Klingons sent a fleet to conquer and enslave every Romulan they could find. Praetor Dontara was assimilated and the Narrada was made from Borg technology, so obviously the Borg attacked the Empire, and the Tal Shiar covered it up. They've had to end the slavery of the Remans and develop a new, slavery free society, all while shouldering the burden of building up Rator 3.
There have been frequent assassinations and infighting at the highest levels. Taris, the leader of the Empire, just vanished one day and never came back. Sela clawed her way to power only a few years ago, taking the long default title of Empress. After she vanishes, whatever is left is bound to fall into infighting and civil war.
There are references to Sela brutalizing her own people in the original Fed missions. Plenty of them. The idea of a large, stable Romulan Empire is a misconception.
This. The road to 2409 spelled out a pretty unstable empire; Who, by the way, were getting significant support from the federation already. Empress Sela had already starting using Tal Shiar tactics to get what she wanted well before being banished to the Delta quadrant. The RSE military, which had become the defacto ruling body after the destruction of Romulus was stretched thin and subsequently either decimated by their war with the KDf, or by the Tal Shiar's clamor for power. Which, one would imagine would start with the assimilation of what's left of the military.
This makes the Tal Shiar the military, with Empress Sela leading them as she tries to turn the Empire into what she wants.
Mean while, the Romulan people have been running or fighting with the countless grabs for power by people and factions wanting to make their own Romulan Empire, all to serve their own needs, and not caring that the empire was struggling just to survive on the worlds that they were making.
many Romulans are trying to avoid the Empire, as it's Sela's empire and not even a shadow of what they used to belong to.
But Lets say that you guys did get what you wanted, not alliances, back stabbing and subterfuge at all angles. what's take a look at what such a faction would look like.
The Not quite Tal Shiar Romulan Empire.
1) character creation: You would get to create a character of any type of Romulan. You wouldn't be able to create Remans, because they would be a slave race, or never allowed near the helm of a war bird. Nor would you have borg liberated Romulans or Alien gen, which already is causing such a frenzy as those are locked off to many players to begin with so that their is a more Romulan faction. (unlike the KDF Orion empire the Klingons have.) If they did allow playable Remans, (something many want.) They would have to be their own faction as well.
The outfits would also be limiting, as many would be variations of uniforms, much like the KDF and Feds, instead of what we have now, which is a nice mix, with options to get those iconic uniforms we like from the shows.
2) Story: I'm going to be very generous here, trying to extrapolate what would likely be the best story with the idea of Pre-nemesis Romulan military. You would start out as a lowly whatever (Not even lieutenant yet.) in command of a very insignificant vessel. We'll assume for the sake of argument that you get the old TOS era warbird because resources are scarce on the flotilla. You have to prove that you are capable to be of use for the Empire, whose goal is to over throw the Tal Shiar and reclaim Rator III so that you can re-establish the Empire's old glory.
With a limited number of vessels left, you have to be careful not to loose any major conflicts of battles. Every loss would be felt in the already diminished Fleet. your first assignment is to establish control over key resources inside Romulan space, while fighting both the Tal Shiar, and the rebel Remen, including people like Obisek. You''l use threat of force and intimidation, including eliminating key leaders on these locations. The whole cloak and dagger. You are ultimately trying to get worlds to fall in line with your faction.
After 10 levels of progression worth of these, you are then promoted and given the task of fueling the war between the KDF, who is still expanding into your empire, and attacking Feds, who despite still offering aid to your weaker colonies, causing both of those factions to intensify hostilities with you and your group, and now expanding your total enemy faction count to four. (we have yet to add in the Hirogen, who I'm willing to role in with the Tal Shiar).
Despite your limited forces, you eventually manage to over throw the Tal Shiar, and hold both the federation and KDf at bay for now, as they are still focused on fighting each other. You suffer losses from the Remens though, and you continue an almost genocidal campaign against them just to blunt their forces. (You can't ally with them, as they refuse to become second class citizens, and the leaders won't bring them to treat them as equals, as that isn't the old ways.)
In the final act of the story, You set up an government on Rator III, and now must go and bring the rest of the Romulans into your fold through force and subterfuge, all while fending off other claims for power from other Romulan factions and protect against assassination attempts. As you reach rank 50, you look back at a very weekend and shattered Romulan Empire, proud that despite having many enemies, you managed to Slavage the old Empire and breath life back into it. Now it's time to fight off the Klingons and the federation, who have now realized that you have been sabotaging their efforts, thanks to the remains of the Remens.
3) Game play: you'll be playing missions very similar to the KDfs, including the attack faction X, or Destroy faction Y ships. You'll also have missions where you have to over throw or bring incriminating evidence to leaders of Romulan colonies to get them to fall in line. You'll also be sent on mission to cross the neutral zone and shadow federation and Klingon ships, just to push their buttons before returning across the neutral zone all in a huff.
so there will be a few new types of missions only for Romulans, there will also be a lot of old KDF style grinds just to fill in the non story game of content. Areas where you can blow up all the different faction ships.
PvP wie, we'll be fracturing the already low community by introducing Rom vs KDF and Rom vs Fed maps, as the game currently doesn't have an open PvP system or larger tehn 5v5 maps. You also won't have the same STFs as teh KDf and Feds will not likely ally, even temporarily with an enemy who uses subterfuge and sabotage to undermine both Factions. The Klingons would treat you like they do the Undine, as honor-less dogs, and the feds would be too wary to even attempt anything involving trust, but hey, at least you got to be the sneaky back stabbers, plus the Romulans wouldn't team up with them anyways, because they are xenophobic, so there perspective is pointless.
Not to mention that many of the featured episodes would not make sense to play as the Romulans in our new Empire, as why would the Roms help the deferi? or investigate the drozana station and the dividians? they would be adding fuel to these catastrophes to help destabilize the other two factions.
4) Community : We'll also have a further fracturing of the player community, as there would be a third side competing for players. relegating the KDF into obsolescence. And even reducing the number of Feds, as you can only play one character at a time. Along with the PvP and STFs that I mentioned above, we would have a more serious problem. And that's not including that fact that many new players, as well as many players don't want to play the villians, and while the KDf can make case as being not evil or underhanded, the Romulans would be. So the draw for new players woudl be hampered. Not to say that there won't be many who want to be villains, just that that group is not the majority.
All in All, this would not be the greatest faction, and that is not including how the Romulans would muster the forces to accomplish establishing an new Empire with out aid from the other factions. At Least D'tan is going to have the resource backing of the Feds and the KDF as he re-establishes a Romulan culture. And While that does include allowing Remens and other Romulan aliens to be equal members, it still a faction based on personal Honor and duty, which are the key charcateristics of a Romulan.
Romulans where underhanded because it was tactical advantage, but they always did things with a sense of personal honor. Except the Tal shiar, but there will always be those that have no honor. And all Romulans have a strong sense of duty, even willing to giver their live for this. They are not characterized by being back stabbing SOBs, as that is a select few, many of which are in politics, and many cases believe that it's the only way to better the Empire.
I for one am happy with the Republic, and Even D'tan makes it clear that you are first and foremost a Romulan. And considering how powerful the Tal Shiar is, with their alliances, it makes sense that D'tan would seek to level the playing field as loosing this over racial pride means the end of the Romulans and their culture for good. And so what if the republic is a little more peaceful? If I come across opposition, I'm not the tree hugging feds who allow them selves to be at a disadvantage just to establish a peace where it does not exist, but character who wants there to be no unnecessary conflicts, but will not back down from a fight, or be taken advantage of by others for the vain idea of peace. The Republic is "speak softly, but carry a big stick, Preferably the biggest stick and make sure the other is very much aware of it." style of Romulan. And these alliances are more self serving to the Romulans then to the other factions.
Imperial Secret Order. "we are the ones that maintain the balance of power in the universe. May our shadow never fall upon you."
Comments
Just thought I'd point out, anyone who suggests SWTOR is "failing" is working off of false information, or doesn't understand what "failing" means.
SWTOR currently has just under 500k subscriptions and their monthly revenues since going f2p have more than doubled.
For reference, STO never reported over 110k subs or so even before it went f2p. I'd be happy to hear from a dev what the current numbers are for STO but I don't think we'll hear it.
SWTOR is a good point of proof though; claiming people don't want to play the "bad" guys is simply not true. If Cryptic wants to gut Romulans to force them into their happy story mold, that's up to them, but they need to have a better reason than the fact that the Tal Shiar are "bad".
So what do you want, spy missions into the Federation and KDF ?
The Romulans are rebuilding after a supernova kinda took out much of their base.
I don't see the happy go lucky Romulans you do.
Sure they co-operate with the KDF or UFofP, however, conanically they were ALREADY working with The Federation after Shinzon's coup and destruction of their Senate.
Many of you are good at coming from the negative, but not from the positive.
What do you want?
Who are the Romulans?
Why are you arguing?
Where would you change it?
They just fail to grasp that the Romulans are basically chaotic, irrational, passionate, intelligent, duplicitous people.
Not some caricature of an evil empire.
Rather a modern/sci-fi Roman Republic setting, which featured all those things.
In summation, Human.
Exactly, And Romans were devoted to the STATE. It was more important to self.
They still are...
You said you can not disagree with D'Tan on the unification with the Vulcans. That is wrong. You can and you reassert this notion with the Sub-commander Tomeer*sp? again later, in the beginning too.
D'Tan and his faction (canonically) were the strongest faction of the RSE left next to the TalShiar. After all, most of them were in hiding.
Or are you going to tell me, no one should be able to play as a Reman? After all pre-Shinzon they were a slave race, Pre-the whole senate being killed off, they were slaves, etc.
The Romulans you "know" died in Nemesis, were further estranged by the supernova, and now are fractured.
The Romulan Republic you see is the RSE being reborn from those events. No they aren't as xenophobic, but still hold themselves superior to everyone.
You seem to refuse to "define" them, why so?
yes! And sabotage! And plots to get the Feds and Klingons fighting more. Slave uprisings. Putting down warlords. Funding Gorn Seperatists to weaken the Klingons. Helping the True way so we can dimish Fed influence in those sectors. Getting rid of Hirogens. Setting D'Tan up to fail.
more or less ALL of it. From the moment I waved to the yehaws from my porch in the opening 30 seconds my stomach started turning. get rid of the Farm.
I want no part of ther Republic so I dont really want to scout their new planet. Or be involved in anyway with its founding.
I would also delete the Alien choice from the character creator as its offensive to any Romulan.
Thats for starters.
But then I would have made us an actual faction too. And not added insult to injury by making us join the Feds or Klingons.
From the writing and dialogue and silly scarves, I feel like many people working on this have never even seen a Romulan. or have any clue what the player base was expecting and wanting.
Even as Fed, the minute I got to the bunnies on New Romulas, I beamed out never to return.
Maybe you should turn off the game and go outside.
It's almost like a society built on paranoia and betrayal and centralized power is having problems cooperating now that the overlords are gone. Imagine that.
Nevermind the years of infighting that have been going on, or the invasion by the Klingons after Hobus, or the near civil war over the massive reforms that have had to be passed by the rapidly disintegrating and increasingly illegitimate state.
The idea that all Romulans just LOVED fascism is the blandly predictable propaganda that every single fascist state uses. Name one tyrannical state that DOESN'T say that all of their people put the state ahead of themselves out of sheer love. If that was true, there wouldn't need to be a Tal Shiar to "keep the people loyal." TNG pretty much disproves this entire idea repeatedly simply by introducing the idea of reunificationists or defectors at all.
That's like earnestly believing that every single Iraqi voted for Saddam Hussien at every election because their sincerely wanted him to be president. It had nothing to do with the secret police monitoring the voting AT ALL, right?
I dont need to "define" them.
Do you need someone to define Klingons to you know what a Klingon faction would be like?
That all can come later.
What you want to be floating out in space as a drifter? Where are all the "PC" Romulans coming from.
Where do these new Romulan ships get built?
See this is again showing a lack of an ability to read.
You do not join them, in exchange for some of the Romulan Technology and some of our "military might", the Federation and KDF fight against the TalShiar and recognize the Romulan Republic as a real entity.
See China, Taiwan and the United States for some ideas of HOW this could be played out.
I dunno seems like you aren't doing much reading.
Why don't you tell me what was happening on Romulus before the supernova for a decade after Shinzon was killed?
How are you going to write an empire/faction nearly wiped out by a super nova, into a thriving empire/faction?
The Klingons are far more fleshed out and aren't a "dying" Empire.
there is no "canon" on this really. it was a small subsection of the population in one episode so Nimoy's ego could make an appearence.
The only "canon" is that Romulas was destroyed.
The part of the "history" is borrowed from a couple of books and the rest made up completely by who ever is writing for cryptic at the time.
So the few people who are dissatified can join D'Tan. I and many others are not in that catagory. D'Tan is free to do whatever. Just dont force us to be a part of it
What is D'Tan doing?
ummm.... the point is that many of us dont care about what D'Tan needs. Only if you follow D'Tan does any of that matter. I dont care if the republic gets recognized.
And its treason to share our technology with aliens. And especially the Feds or Klingons. Many of us have issue with that. I dont need to be helping either side.
If you dont buy into what D'Tan is selling then all the other talking points are irrelevant.
My only hope is he is just a con man and its all a clever ploy to get the Feds and Klingons to build stuff for us before we run them out of the area.
well along with dstahl destroying what little is left of the Romulans
You can still run off to roleplay or the Foundry and make your own campaign in which you villainously twirl your mustache. They have even given the players the Tal Shiar uniforms and prefix to help that, which even I thought was a great touch.
You really shouldn't be so offended that they took the game's story in another direction that it literally turns your stomach. That's getting less "roleplay" and more "creepy", and I say that as a roleplayer of many years.
this^^^^ if he dose something like this will show me there is some romulan in him after all
system Lord Baal is dead
The Klingons had their homeworld made virtually uninhabitable thanks to the destruction of their moon, but by the time of TNG (and indeed, much earleir) they had rebounded and were stronger than ever. That's obviously the sort of thing that made klingon fans very happy. Imagine if instead all we had were rag-clothed klingon refugees showing up every now and again kowtowing to federation and Romulans and wishing to only live in peace?
And I don't get why people keep stating that this change of governemnt, culture, etc was 'inevitable' or such nonsense. After all, the Romulan Republic was a rather new development-added in just last year. Before that there were no 'rebel' Romulans (unless you count the now-retconned rather blatent hints that the Tal'Shiar was a Rogue element and was at odds with Sela's regime) The Romulans were heading back towards an era of stability and strength. Diplomacy in place of brute force was outright stated to be a tool that Sela prefered to use in the reunification of the RSE.
Compare that to the situation after all of these retcons by Cryptic starting with the New Romulus expansion-it's a completely different picture. Brute force is now the *only* language the Empress speaks, who has gone from being anti-Tal Shiar to actually working with them on all of their deepest, darkest schemes. Instead of a few miners beign taken advantage of on the periphrials of the Emprie by Ferengi etc, we have everyone living in fear that The Tal Shiar might just swoop in and massacre them for no reason. (a far cry from Sela's 'diplomacy' mentioned in the previous material)
Fact of the matter is, Cryptic already laid the foundation for a RSE that was stable, recovering, and stayed true to the well-known flavor of Romulans we have known across TNG/DS9 & VOY. This is the Romulan faction that we could have played-one that didn't need to bow knee to their former enemies, (Iconians don't count, since the Empress was not aware of the Tal Shiar's role) that still allowed for a 'rebuilding' storyline, let us play as classic Romulans instead of ones inspired by the Bajorans and Rebel Alliance. (outright stated by the devs) and wouldn't have left the vibe that one was playign a third-rate power/boarderline protectorate.
it would have actually taken less effort to have written a faction for the RSE pre-New Romulus than for Cryptic's new 'reinvention', so any statements that the Romulan Republic makes more 'sense' given the circumstances fall flat considering that Cryptic had to basically retcon the whole Romulan backstory to make room for these faux-romulans.
Read the Road to 2409. There was /never/ a stable Empire after Hobus. The very week Romulus was destroyed, the Klingons sent a fleet to conquer and enslave every Romulan they could find. Praetor Dontara was assimilated and the Narrada was made from Borg technology, so obviously the Borg attacked the Empire, and the Tal Shiar covered it up. They've had to end the slavery of the Remans and develop a new, slavery free society, all while shouldering the burden of building up Rator 3.
There have been frequent assassinations and infighting at the highest levels. Taris, the leader of the Empire, just vanished one day and never came back. Sela clawed her way to power only a few years ago, taking the long default title of Empress. After she vanishes, whatever is left is bound to fall into infighting and civil war.
There are references to Sela brutalizing her own people in the original Fed missions. Plenty of them. The idea of a large, stable Romulan Empire is a misconception.
Again, Cryptic did soem rather substantial retcons in order to get this Romulan Republic faction to fly.
What do you want the Romluns to be then?
Again able to speak from the negative...
So the early Romulan-Klingon Alliance that gave the Klingons cloaking technology never happened?
Or the Defiant? Oh monsieur woe is you.
Again you speak from a negative vacuum lacking in scope and breath of cannon.
Guess what, in the Tutorial that is a response you can actually give... interesting eh? "I don't want any part of this war" in the context of the Romulan Republic and TalShiar. Yes you do have to go with them but under the pretext of "for now" as a choice.
D'Tan is just one man in the Romulan Republic and doesn't so far seem to seek out to be Praetor (as in "Ceasar").
FYI, D'Tan wants to rebuild the Romulan Republic to keep the culture and heritage before even talking about peace with the Vulcans and Remans. That's nearly an exact quote from the dialogue.
Really, it's been fun. All I have left for you is personal insults at this point and that gets neither of us anywhere.
A lot of people forget you confront Sela and then an Iconian ship toes her away, in the Federation story line.
Right, and when you get to actually see that "recovery and stability", it involves using biological weapons on Romulan colonies and outright attacking anyone who thinks of leaving (and plenty of planets along the neutral zone are) because the Romulan Empire is still collapsing even with her in charge.
Gee, I don't know why so many people aren't loyal to the state anymore.
In Unification, she's working with "Romulan Intelligence" to invade Vulcan. She's always been part of the Tal Shiar, even on the show. That doesn't mean she can't hate them, of course, but it's never been said that she's tossed them out of power.
Really it just comes down to a vacuum of what really did happen between Nemesis and JJ Abrams' Star Trek on Romulus.
Donatra, Tu'laura, D'Tan and Sela are the "figureheads" we could speculate about.
STO/Cryptic went with D'Tan and the unification underground.
Sela has an odd relationship with the TalShiar (Unification 1 & 2 TNG), but is very against the unification of Vulcans and Romulans.
So it makes "some sense" how we have what we have in STO, Sela is shown to have no remorse in killing her own people too.
Romulan rule has never been 'nice'. Sela is just better than all of the other Caligua's that have come before her in recent memory.
As to why they would be loyal? Even in TNG, during the two instances where Romulans defect to the Federation, they do it out of what they interpruet as loyalty to the Empire. They aren't defecting because the grass is greener on the other side of the neutral zone, but because they want a better situation for the RSE.
It's also possible that they were seperate entities. After all, 'Tal Shiar' is only mentioned in exactly one episode of TNG.
At any rate, in STO, they seem to have goen with the idea that she was either never a member, or was kicked out a long tiem before the events of STO when she was banished. There's a lot of bad blood between them
No I didn't and I will grant you, the question of did she know? or not know of the gates being built could be questioned.
I understand with the TalShiar (before the supernova) exiling her would be a damper on them but they established in STO they are one of the fractured RSE factions who are the strongest left over. Sela probably would see no quarrel using them as Empress after all use of the Hirogen led her to conquer the TalShiar.
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Mission:_Cutting_the_Cord/Walkthrough
The difference being that unlike the previous rulers, Sela doesn't have the military and social control to keep them loyal (particularly if she's been at odds with the Tal Shiar).
That's what the Romulan Republic wants.
That same episode mentions that the Tal Shiar are "the Romulan intelligence agency".
I acknowledge that they've retconned Sela's relationship with them with regards to STO, but I don't think that it ever effected anything before. It may have made Sela a bit more innocent regarding the Iconians, but we still don't know if she actually was working with them, or if Hakeev was going behind her back.
I'm far more upset about retconning Taris, because I always had a pet fan theory that she and the Tal Shiar were ordered by the Iconians to use Shinzon to destroy Earth in Nemesis, and now I'm not sure that can be true. Ah well.
I think too many people are just clouded by seeing D'Tan and Unification... they just aren't seeing the bigger scope.
This. The road to 2409 spelled out a pretty unstable empire; Who, by the way, were getting significant support from the federation already. Empress Sela had already starting using Tal Shiar tactics to get what she wanted well before being banished to the Delta quadrant. The RSE military, which had become the defacto ruling body after the destruction of Romulus was stretched thin and subsequently either decimated by their war with the KDf, or by the Tal Shiar's clamor for power. Which, one would imagine would start with the assimilation of what's left of the military.
This makes the Tal Shiar the military, with Empress Sela leading them as she tries to turn the Empire into what she wants.
Mean while, the Romulan people have been running or fighting with the countless grabs for power by people and factions wanting to make their own Romulan Empire, all to serve their own needs, and not caring that the empire was struggling just to survive on the worlds that they were making.
many Romulans are trying to avoid the Empire, as it's Sela's empire and not even a shadow of what they used to belong to.
But Lets say that you guys did get what you wanted, not alliances, back stabbing and subterfuge at all angles. what's take a look at what such a faction would look like.
The Not quite Tal Shiar Romulan Empire.
1) character creation: You would get to create a character of any type of Romulan. You wouldn't be able to create Remans, because they would be a slave race, or never allowed near the helm of a war bird. Nor would you have borg liberated Romulans or Alien gen, which already is causing such a frenzy as those are locked off to many players to begin with so that their is a more Romulan faction. (unlike the KDF Orion empire the Klingons have.) If they did allow playable Remans, (something many want.) They would have to be their own faction as well.
The outfits would also be limiting, as many would be variations of uniforms, much like the KDF and Feds, instead of what we have now, which is a nice mix, with options to get those iconic uniforms we like from the shows.
2) Story: I'm going to be very generous here, trying to extrapolate what would likely be the best story with the idea of Pre-nemesis Romulan military. You would start out as a lowly whatever (Not even lieutenant yet.) in command of a very insignificant vessel. We'll assume for the sake of argument that you get the old TOS era warbird because resources are scarce on the flotilla. You have to prove that you are capable to be of use for the Empire, whose goal is to over throw the Tal Shiar and reclaim Rator III so that you can re-establish the Empire's old glory.
With a limited number of vessels left, you have to be careful not to loose any major conflicts of battles. Every loss would be felt in the already diminished Fleet. your first assignment is to establish control over key resources inside Romulan space, while fighting both the Tal Shiar, and the rebel Remen, including people like Obisek. You''l use threat of force and intimidation, including eliminating key leaders on these locations. The whole cloak and dagger. You are ultimately trying to get worlds to fall in line with your faction.
After 10 levels of progression worth of these, you are then promoted and given the task of fueling the war between the KDF, who is still expanding into your empire, and attacking Feds, who despite still offering aid to your weaker colonies, causing both of those factions to intensify hostilities with you and your group, and now expanding your total enemy faction count to four. (we have yet to add in the Hirogen, who I'm willing to role in with the Tal Shiar).
Despite your limited forces, you eventually manage to over throw the Tal Shiar, and hold both the federation and KDf at bay for now, as they are still focused on fighting each other. You suffer losses from the Remens though, and you continue an almost genocidal campaign against them just to blunt their forces. (You can't ally with them, as they refuse to become second class citizens, and the leaders won't bring them to treat them as equals, as that isn't the old ways.)
In the final act of the story, You set up an government on Rator III, and now must go and bring the rest of the Romulans into your fold through force and subterfuge, all while fending off other claims for power from other Romulan factions and protect against assassination attempts. As you reach rank 50, you look back at a very weekend and shattered Romulan Empire, proud that despite having many enemies, you managed to Slavage the old Empire and breath life back into it. Now it's time to fight off the Klingons and the federation, who have now realized that you have been sabotaging their efforts, thanks to the remains of the Remens.
3) Game play: you'll be playing missions very similar to the KDfs, including the attack faction X, or Destroy faction Y ships. You'll also have missions where you have to over throw or bring incriminating evidence to leaders of Romulan colonies to get them to fall in line. You'll also be sent on mission to cross the neutral zone and shadow federation and Klingon ships, just to push their buttons before returning across the neutral zone all in a huff.
so there will be a few new types of missions only for Romulans, there will also be a lot of old KDF style grinds just to fill in the non story game of content. Areas where you can blow up all the different faction ships.
PvP wie, we'll be fracturing the already low community by introducing Rom vs KDF and Rom vs Fed maps, as the game currently doesn't have an open PvP system or larger tehn 5v5 maps. You also won't have the same STFs as teh KDf and Feds will not likely ally, even temporarily with an enemy who uses subterfuge and sabotage to undermine both Factions. The Klingons would treat you like they do the Undine, as honor-less dogs, and the feds would be too wary to even attempt anything involving trust, but hey, at least you got to be the sneaky back stabbers, plus the Romulans wouldn't team up with them anyways, because they are xenophobic, so there perspective is pointless.
Not to mention that many of the featured episodes would not make sense to play as the Romulans in our new Empire, as why would the Roms help the deferi? or investigate the drozana station and the dividians? they would be adding fuel to these catastrophes to help destabilize the other two factions.
4) Community : We'll also have a further fracturing of the player community, as there would be a third side competing for players. relegating the KDF into obsolescence. And even reducing the number of Feds, as you can only play one character at a time. Along with the PvP and STFs that I mentioned above, we would have a more serious problem. And that's not including that fact that many new players, as well as many players don't want to play the villians, and while the KDf can make case as being not evil or underhanded, the Romulans would be. So the draw for new players woudl be hampered. Not to say that there won't be many who want to be villains, just that that group is not the majority.
All in All, this would not be the greatest faction, and that is not including how the Romulans would muster the forces to accomplish establishing an new Empire with out aid from the other factions. At Least D'tan is going to have the resource backing of the Feds and the KDF as he re-establishes a Romulan culture. And While that does include allowing Remens and other Romulan aliens to be equal members, it still a faction based on personal Honor and duty, which are the key charcateristics of a Romulan.
Romulans where underhanded because it was tactical advantage, but they always did things with a sense of personal honor. Except the Tal shiar, but there will always be those that have no honor. And all Romulans have a strong sense of duty, even willing to giver their live for this. They are not characterized by being back stabbing SOBs, as that is a select few, many of which are in politics, and many cases believe that it's the only way to better the Empire.
I for one am happy with the Republic, and Even D'tan makes it clear that you are first and foremost a Romulan. And considering how powerful the Tal Shiar is, with their alliances, it makes sense that D'tan would seek to level the playing field as loosing this over racial pride means the end of the Romulans and their culture for good. And so what if the republic is a little more peaceful? If I come across opposition, I'm not the tree hugging feds who allow them selves to be at a disadvantage just to establish a peace where it does not exist, but character who wants there to be no unnecessary conflicts, but will not back down from a fight, or be taken advantage of by others for the vain idea of peace. The Republic is "speak softly, but carry a big stick, Preferably the biggest stick and make sure the other is very much aware of it." style of Romulan. And these alliances are more self serving to the Romulans then to the other factions.