The difference being that unlike the previous rulers, Sela doesn't have the military and social control to keep them loyal (particularly if she's been at odds with the Tal Shiar).
I don't think it is ever established or even referenced that she has exercised less military and social control compared to the other Romulan praetors-if anythign, she is painted as being in more control, even after the new retcons.
Before the retcons, there was definate evidence of the existance of a non-tal shiar military presence, both as ground troops and fleet ships-you fought a lot of non-Tal Shiar in many of the episodes, so I don't think that a non-tal shair military support is much of an issue. Besides, when she went into exile (and when she returned) she had her fleet with her, as well as her Hirogen allies. There's general Velal, for isntance.
I'm going to have to disagree. They want to rebuild the RSE, but explicitly as something different in cultural values than the old RSE of TNG. it seems to me to be mroe of a 'grass is greener over there' sort of situation rather than out of Loyalty to the RSE.
That same episode mentions that the Tal Shiar are "the Romulan intelligence agency".
I acknowledge that they've retconned Sela's relationship with them with regards to STO, but I don't think that it ever effected anything before. It may have made Sela a bit more innocent regarding the Iconians, but we still don't know if she actually was working with them, or if Hakeev was going behind her back.
I'm far more upset about retconning Taris, because I always had a pet fan theory that she and the Tal Shiar were ordered by the Iconians to use Shinzon to destroy Earth in Nemesis, and now I'm not sure that can be true. Ah well.
I'm pretty sure that 'Face of the Enemy' is the only episode in which the tal Shair are mentioned by name, but lets not split hairs
Anyways, a retcon is a retcon. The whole introduction of the Romulan Republic rests on recons, without which a RSE faction would have been perfectly reasonable. Heck, even with the retcons, a lot of people have been saying they would *still* rather play as the RSE- they are that iconic. The Republic are neither necessary, nor a natural evolution of the storyline (since they required a lot of retcons to work).
We would be better off without them.
That is precisely what I'm trying to get some folks to realize on their own. It's easy to be a critique when you don't have to do any of the work .
Though interesting gameplay on it's own, it'd be like the KDF from the start of STO. We could be given VA missions like that later on. When "game wise" a new senate is convened etc. Right now, lets get it out the door.
I think KDF suffers in population because of it's horrible start, so many were turned off by it that they have more "mains" in the Federation they don't want to build up a KDF. I actually only got a 50 Orion because of the costume/reboot of the KDF.
That is precisely what I'm trying to get some folks to realize on their own. It's easy to be a critique when you don't have to do any of the work .
Though interesting gameplay on it's own, it'd be like the KDF from the start of STO. We could be given VA missions like that later on. When "game wise" a new senate is convened etc. Right now, lets get it out the door.
I think KDF suffers in population because of it's horrible start, so many were turned off by it that they have more "mains" in the Federation they don't want to build up a KDF. I actually only got a 50 Orion because of the costume/reboot of the KDF.
I'm still only lvl 36 on my Orion, and I started a KDf with the costume reboot to the Orions. There's not enough mission content to slide right on through, story wise. Am lookoing forward to the new content for KDF on the 21st.
Imperial Secret Order. "we are the ones that maintain the balance of power in the universe. May our shadow never fall upon you."
That is precisely what I'm trying to get some folks to realize on their own. It's easy to be a critique when you don't have to do any of the work .
Though interesting gameplay on it's own, it'd be like the KDF from the start of STO. We could be given VA missions like that later on. When "game wise" a new senate is convened etc. Right now, lets get it out the door.
I think KDF suffers in population because of it's horrible start, so many were turned off by it that they have more "mains" in the Federation they don't want to build up a KDF. I actually only got a 50 Orion because of the costume/reboot of the KDF.
Honestly, I'd prefer that it was more like the KDF at start, or even a 'monster play' faction if it meant that we got to play the old Romulans. A half faction can always be expanded onto into a full faction-the update to the KDF shows this clearly. However, not only is the RR designed from the floor up to be a sort of 'inbetween' faction-one that borrows assets, episodes, etc heavily from the KDF and FED, but by choosing to make the faction the RR instead of the RSE (as well as all the retcons to completely demonize the RSE) means that the door for a RSE faction is pretty much permanetely shut.
"I'm going to have to disagree. They want to rebuild the RSE, but explicitly as something different in cultural values than the old RSE of TNG. it seems to me to be mroe of a 'grass is greener over there' sort of situation rather than out of Loyalty to the RSE."
I HATE and LOATHE the infamous "They".
Who is this "They", right now we just have D'Tan and unificationists. Admittedly, I have only gotten to level 11 because I do not want to spoil my Romulan and I only went to the beta test because I was absolutely curious what direction they took with the Romulan Republic and the Choice between Fed and KDF. Oh yes, I would not have played a Romulan if they "joined" one of them. :P
The Romulan Republic will have at some point convene a Senate not full of unificationists and then the "they" will be them. Not all Romulans left agree with him and that's said actually by Tovan himself. I'm sure more Romulans joining the Romulan Republic will eventually change the tone of the Romulan Republic.
If anything Parlimentaries, Senates, etc of our current world displays anything of how much disagreements there can be. The old Senate did oppose Taris before she dissolved them after all. The "new" Senate may eventually oppose D'Tan at some point.
The only big difference at this point is the Romulan Republic founders want a more open and less conquest oriented Republic. That is "for now", Democracy has a vary strange way of changing with the wind.
The Legacy of Romulus is opening the door to show how not all of the Romulans of this new Government are like the unificationists.
Honestly, I'd prefer that it was more like the KDF at start, or even a 'monster play' faction if it meant that we got to play the old Romulans. A half faction can always be expanded onto into a full faction-the update to the KDF shows this clearly. However, not only is the RR designed from the floor up to be a sort of 'inbetween' faction-one that borrows assets, episodes, etc heavily from the KDF and FED, but by choosing to make the faction the RR instead of the RSE (as well as all the retcons to completely demonize the RSE) means that the door for a RSE faction is pretty much permanetely shut.
I'd hate to live through another half finished faction debacle that the KDf went through. It took three years to bring them up to speed, and the wounds will never heal.
maybe in the future they'll open up monster play for the evil factions like the true way, the borg, and the Tal shiar, but even that won't be what players want.
Imperial Secret Order. "we are the ones that maintain the balance of power in the universe. May our shadow never fall upon you."
but by choosing to make the faction the RR instead of the RSE (as well as all the retcons to completely demonize the RSE) means that the door for a RSE faction is pretty much permanetely shut.
You know that's patently false and what Romulan wouldn't be opposed to Iconian interference which was long established before this faction came about.
You already had prior to this a Senate who opposed the Monarchy of Taris.
The real question I have for a lot of you, do you really see the RSE being ruled by a Dictator?
Considering we see the Helix etc, we might be seeing the factions of the Temporal Cold War coming together (here comes the Sabatoge etc).
By the 24th century, the government of Romulus was dependent upon the Tal Shiar, the Romulan secret police, to maintain order and stability among both civilians and the military. The Tal Shiar was known for its brutal tactics, which included routine kidnapping, torture, and assassination. Many Romulans fear even expressing dissenting opinions as not to spark the interest of the Tal Shiar. There were also indications that tension existed between the military and the Tal Shiar. (TNG: "Face of the Enemy")
At one point in history, Romulus was a sovereign nation ruled by an Empress, as indicated by Q. (VOY: "The Q and the Grey") By the 23rd century, the highest position of power was held by the Praetor, who presided over the Romulan Senate. (TOS: "Balance of Terror"; Star Trek Nemesis) The Praetor headed the Continuing Committee, which was comprised of the Empire's most elite individuals, who made decisions of the utmost importance. (DS9: "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges")
You know that's patently false and what Romulan wouldn't be opposed to Iconian interference which was long established before this faction came about.
You already had prior to this a Senate who opposed the Monarchy of Taris.
The real question I have for a lot of you, do you really see the RSE being ruled by a Dictator?
Considering we see the Helix etc, we might be seeing the factions of the Temporal Cold War coming together (here comes the Sabatoge etc).
We know that the Tal Shiar wouldn't be opposed to Iconian interference, but they don't (or didn't rather) speak for Sela or the RSE as a whole. Theri whole operation was very explicitly very cloak and dagger.
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What does this have to do with the part of my post you quoted from?
Consdiering the RSE is and has been rueld by dictators in the past, it seems rather fitting that Sela be an Empress. I'd still prefer the Senate/Praetor system, but it seems within character for the RSE.
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What does the Suliban have to do with anything?
As for your rant about pronouns, you do realize that I was talking about the Romulan Republic there, right? it should have been abundantly clear, considering that I was responding to a six word sentance (two of which were 'Romulan Republic) or were you just waxing a pit pedantic for the sake of drama? Not worth my time to reply to if you are just going to purposefully misinterpruet for the sake of drama.
We know that the Tal Shiar wouldn't be opposed to Iconian interference, but they don't (or didn't rather) speak for Sela or the RSE as a whole. Theri whole operation was very explicitly very cloak and dagger.
Because you keep maintaining an assumption that Sela didn't know... she was the Empress, occam's razor, she'd more than likely know about it. Especially after recent events, such as, the attacks on the colony in the Romulan Tutorial are -before- the events of the Federation campaign.
Consdiering the RSE is and has been rueld by dictators in the past, it seems rather fitting that Sela be an Empress. I'd still prefer the Senate/Praetor system, but it seems within character for the RSE.
Again a false assertion, you make a lot of these, only in with Q does there allege to have been one and only one before. Until Shinzon all that is known is that there is a Republican government.
As for your rant about pronouns, you do realize that I was talking about the Romulan Republic there, right? it should have been abundantly clear, considering that I was responding to a six word sentance (two of which were 'Romulan Republic) or were you just waxing a pit pedantic for the sake of drama? Not worth my time to reply to if you are just going to purposefully misinterpruet for the sake of drama.
That's precisely why I hate they and how you used it, you are speaking about a Government that is at the whims of citizens. Things can change, D'Tan will not be proconsul forever.
Again a false assertion, you make a lot of these, only in with Q does there allege to have been one and only one before. Until Shinzon all that is known is that there is a Republican government.
But it's Q, are they bound by time.
a Q would know better then you or me.... and because he said it that is fact and canon
and no they are not bound by time did you not see the EP with the girl Q or was it the one with the Q that committed suicide they went back in time to the start of the big bang ?
That's my point, he could be talking about the current Empress or one before... it's Q, who knows.
he was talking pretense and seeing there was no sto or nemesis at the time of the air date of that EP
"Nonsense! I could have chosen a Klingon Targ, a Romulan empress, a Cerelian microbe..."
"Really?! I beat out a single cell organism?! How flattering."
- Q and Janeway
Actually Warz I'm going to have to point out you using a bit of false logic it seems.
Your points about people coming up with solutions for fixing the problems rather than just "coming from the negative" as you put it, doesn't really hold water. You don't need to be a mechanic to know a car is broken, nor do people need to be able to detail a fully fleshed out playable-RSE scenario to know that they dislike the direction Cryptic has taken. In fact, it's kind of Cryptic's job to do the actual fixing. I think we can all agree, though, that the Romulans we are playing are definitely not the Romulans from the TNG/DS9 episodes which pretty much defined Romulans for us. That's certainly more than enough of a starting point for someone to be disappointed in the Romulan Republic.
That being said, I have to say that I think it would actually be a more compelling story if the player's perspective was that of the Tal Shiar and it's attempts to rebuild the Empire of old after such a tragedy. There's a lot of rich history and interesting concepts from that point of view; things like trying to use the Iconians/Elachi for help without becoming subservient to them, dealing with splinter colonies like Virinat or terrorist groups like D'Tans, and trying to reclaim the identity that once dominated major sections of the quadrant. The so called "evil" perspective would provide a much more unique storytelling experience than the current one which could easily have been the Federation trying to save people from the Borg.
Unfortunately, having this group of 'clean slate' Romulans meant they wouldn't really have to deal with any of the story history or defined nature of Romulans, so there was no need for the finesse the storyline might have required. In my opinion, it was taking the easy way out. In much the same manner, the technological requirements of a fully unique playable RSE were circumvented by having the 'clean slate' Romulans forced into joining one of the existing factions. It's for this reason I don't think we'll ever see a proper playable RSE. Having Romulans join the UFP/KDF is a corner-cut to use currently existing content to fill the gaps in what we would've received for a unique faction. This lets them get the expansion out faster but may mean just that much more coding to separate the Romulans, should that idea occur to Cryptic. They essentially may be painting themselves into a corner because of it.
In the end, I think it simply comes down to the fact that for many people like myself, we don't feel like Cryptic is being true to the spirit of Romulans that was branded in our hearts during the shows that we loved. I don't think anyone would have been as disappointed playing the RSE and the Tal Shiar over the Romulan refugees we are now.
That being said, I have to say that I think it would actually be a more compelling story if the player's perspective was that of the Tal Shiar and it's attempts to rebuild the Empire of old after such a tragedy. There's a lot of rich history and interesting concepts from that point of view; things like trying to use the Iconians/Elachi for help without becoming subservient to them, dealing with splinter colonies like Virinat or terrorist groups like D'Tans, and trying to reclaim the identity that once dominated major sections of the quadrant. The so called "evil" perspective would provide a much more unique storytelling experience than the current one which could easily have been the Federation trying to save people from the Borg.
I think it would have been more of a mistake. One of the key things about the Romulans from the show was just how much of a mystery they were. Picard could never quite tell what they were thinking, or planning, or if they were being honest or not. Playing from the Romulan side would destroy that sort of mystery by removing that any guess work of what your character was up to.
Also, much like the Klingons, I some times felt that after TOS, many of the enemies fell into stereotypes rather then being a dynamic race, which few got out of. While more cloak and dagger in TNG and DS9, the Romulans where more of a mystery in TOS with more of an emphasis on personal Honor and Duty, then anything else. This makes Romulans far more diverse when it comes to what they are and how they act.
The Klingons went from a strong enemy force always competing with the Federation, to a more fleshed out and cultured warrior race by Star Trek VI. Kang was more than a rampaging barbarian who only thought of attacking every thing that moves. When TNG rolled around the Klingons had morphed into space vikings with fighting as the only true way for a Klingon to live, which brings up major gaps in the culture, like farming and mechanics.
The ferengi where really horrible at first, suppose to show the worst of capitalism, but they did not pose a serious threat as an enemy. the morphed into an interesting side race that dealt with commerce when DS9 came around, and actually turned into s species people liked and could respect.
Unfortunately, having this group of 'clean slate' Romulans meant they wouldn't really have to deal with any of the story history or defined nature of Romulans, so there was no need for the finesse the storyline might have required. In my opinion, it was taking the easy way out. In much the same manner, the technological requirements of a fully unique playable RSE were circumvented by having the 'clean slate' Romulans forced into joining one of the existing factions. It's for this reason I don't think we'll ever see a proper playable RSE. Having Romulans join the UFP/KDF is a corner-cut to use currently existing content to fill the gaps in what we would've received for a unique faction. This lets them get the expansion out faster but may mean just that much more coding to separate the Romulans, should that idea occur to Cryptic. They essentially may be painting themselves into a corner because of it.
This is where i think you are wrong. We get to see the Romulans from a more unique perspective, namely from a survivor and citizen, instead of the government, which is what the shows mostly dealt with as far as representing the Romulan people. Just like we can't judge what Americans are like just by looking at our politicians, most Romulans are not the cloak and dagger folks. (otherwise, I doubt that culture would have survived this long). I think it brings back the Romulan idea as it should be, personal Honor and a sense of duty, which each individual decides what that means. For some that means doing what the Empire wants, with out question, while others would retreat even if they had the advantage, because the felt that sort of victor held no meaning. Romulans, much like the klingons claim to be, like strong opponents to test them selves against, and so to prove their worth and skill.
As part of the republic you have to struggle harder and take on larger challanges to prove you are capable, whilst a Tal Shiar agent would really just be bullies, maybe fighting a strong opponent every once in a while. I will admit that part of the reason the designed the story like this was so that they could take advantage of some of the content already available, seeing as they have a limited time to work on this, but I think the story really does bring all aspects of the Romulans to life, and not just one side of it. And the Story is light years ahead of most of the content we have now.
And frankly, I don't think the community would have settled for a half finished faction to come out, and the way the game is set up, you can't throw a third faction into the mix, especially when it comes to PvP. They still want to maintain a two sided conflict, and this was the best compromise to get what we wanted in. A distinct faction, that works with in one of the other factions of your choice, and getting benefits of these choices, while still having both a uniquely Romulan experience and story, as well as access to enough end game content to keep us happy and content till the next season and the content that comes with that. Which would more than likely included extended content for the Romulans to play.
In the end, I think it simply comes down to the fact that for many people like myself, we don't feel like Cryptic is being true to the spirit of Romulans that was branded in our hearts during the shows that we loved. I don't think anyone would have been as disappointed playing the RSE and the Tal Shiar over the Romulan refugees we are now.
It's sorry that you feel that way. Time will tell what they decide to do with the Romulan Republic. And I'm sure there will be content that people of your mindset will enjoy. Which might explain why the dev team decided to allow you to have the Tal shiar outfits, and the IRW monicker for your ships, so that you can role play as the more "traditional" Romulan, or even as a Tal Shiar agent, from the olden days.
Imperial Secret Order. "we are the ones that maintain the balance of power in the universe. May our shadow never fall upon you."
Actually Warz I'm going to have to point out you using a bit of false logic it seems.
Your points about people coming up with solutions for fixing the problems rather than just "coming from the negative" as you put it, doesn't really hold water. You don't need to be a mechanic to know a car is broken, nor do people need to be able to detail a fully fleshed out playable-RSE scenario to know that they dislike the direction Cryptic has taken. In fact, it's kind of Cryptic's job to do the actual fixing. I think we can all agree, though, that the Romulans we are playing are definitely not the Romulans from the TNG/DS9 episodes which pretty much defined Romulans for us. That's certainly more than enough of a starting point for someone to be disappointed in the Romulan Republic.
That being said, I have to say that I think it would actually be a more compelling story if the player's perspective was that of the Tal Shiar and it's attempts to rebuild the Empire of old after such a tragedy. There's a lot of rich history and interesting concepts from that point of view; things like trying to use the Iconians/Elachi for help without becoming subservient to them, dealing with splinter colonies like Virinat or terrorist groups like D'Tans, and trying to reclaim the identity that once dominated major sections of the quadrant. The so called "evil" perspective would provide a much more unique storytelling experience than the current one which could easily have been the Federation trying to save people from the Borg.
Unfortunately, having this group of 'clean slate' Romulans meant they wouldn't really have to deal with any of the story history or defined nature of Romulans, so there was no need for the finesse the storyline might have required. In my opinion, it was taking the easy way out. In much the same manner, the technological requirements of a fully unique playable RSE were circumvented by having the 'clean slate' Romulans forced into joining one of the existing factions. It's for this reason I don't think we'll ever see a proper playable RSE. Having Romulans join the UFP/KDF is a corner-cut to use currently existing content to fill the gaps in what we would've received for a unique faction. This lets them get the expansion out faster but may mean just that much more coding to separate the Romulans, should that idea occur to Cryptic. They essentially may be painting themselves into a corner because of it.
In the end, I think it simply comes down to the fact that for many people like myself, we don't feel like Cryptic is being true to the spirit of Romulans that was branded in our hearts during the shows that we loved. I don't think anyone would have been as disappointed playing the RSE and the Tal Shiar over the Romulan refugees we are now.
while I dont disagree with you, you also make an assumption that every seems to make. That Romulans = Tal Shiar. We didnt even have to be Tal Shiar.
We could have been normal Romulan military, dealing with the same things you mentioned but also having to worry about the Tal Shiar.
You could have still kept most of the plot points. Defeating Hakeev etc.
Its canon that there was friction between the military and the Tal Shair.
It was also mostly the Military that killed the senate and and staged the Shinzon coup.
But all anyone talks about is Tal Shiar.
Our only options were not Tal Shiar or badly dressed scarf lovers.
This is where i think you are wrong. We get to see the Romulans from a more unique perspective, namely from a survivor and citizen,
Yeah, just like in Star Wars Galaxies. They orginally thought that no wanted to be Han Solo or Greedo but was going to be the guy behind the bar. I know my Star wars dream was to be a chef.
while I dont disagree with you, you also make an assumption that every seems to make. That Romulans = Tal Shiar. We didnt even have to be Tal Shiar.
We could have been normal Romulan military, dealing with the same things you mentioned but also having to worry about the Tal Shiar.
You could have still kept most of the plot points. Defeating Hakeev etc.
Its canon that there was friction between the military and the Tal Shair.
It was also mostly the Military that killed the senate and and staged the Shinzon coup.
But all anyone talks about is Tal Shiar.
Our only options were not Tal Shiar or badly dressed scarf lovers.
Exactly. We already had a pre-established friction between the Tal Shiar and the military. There was already a pre-established friction between the Tal Shiar and Sela. There was already a 'rebuilding the empire' subplot going on prior to the introduction of the Romulan Republic. We already know that the Romulan Star Empire utilized half-breeds and defectors within positions in their military-so the excuse that playing RSE would necessitate locking out all species options except Romulans holds no water. if anything it was more work to retcon this divisive Romulan Republic faction into existance than it would have been to just implement a straight-up RSE faction.
oh come on. we all know this is it. they'll do nothing else.
all that will ever happen is they'll put some toy in a lockbox or come out with another c-store ship.
Just like they decided not to do anything for the Klingons. While I expect alot of Tal Shiar material to be lock box or C store, they are trying to tell a story that will progress, for all factions, and I have no doubt that more will come. What that is when it gets here remains to be unseen, but with LoR, it gives me high hopes that future content will be of good quality.
As for the being part of the military. If the path to 2409 is any indication, there isn't much left that isn't being contorled by Empress Sela. In fact she had to use the Hirogen just to give her military backing when she took the Empire. Most of them that had survive the destruction of Romulus, where sent to try to stabilize the Romulan Klingon border, where the Klingons have been fighting since the destruction of Romulus. The remainder are under her control, as well as the Tal Shiar (see dev blog #1) which leaves very few left to work against her. Most survivng members not wanting to be apart of Sela's Empire, would be living out on the fringe worlds, trying to make a life for them selves. As security and other positions their talents allow.
But hey, if you want to play as something other then A Republic captain, I can guarantee there will be whole story line from the foundry that will give you the alternate Romulans you so desire.
Imperial Secret Order. "we are the ones that maintain the balance of power in the universe. May our shadow never fall upon you."
...
As for the being part of the military. If the path to 2409 is any indication, there isn't much left that isn't being contorled by Empress Sela. In fact she had to use the Hirogen just to give her military backing when she took the Empire. Most of them that had survive the destruction of Romulus, where sent to try to stabilize the Romulan Klingon border, where the Klingons have been fighting since the destruction of Romulus. The remainder are under her control, as well as the Tal Shiar (see dev blog #1) which leaves very few left to work against her. Most survivng members not wanting to be apart of Sela's Empire, would be living out on the fringe worlds, trying to make a life for them selves. As security and other positions their talents allow.
...
As I and others have already noted, we don't need to 'work against her' She was't a Tal Shiar lackey until LoR rolled around. There are plenty of non-tal shiar military elements present (many if not most of the Romulans fought in the episdodes for the federation are normal military)in both the background (she won her position of empress with the help of a taris-opposed general, she went into exile with her personal fleet) In any case, the normal romulan military seems to be getting retconned out with LoR.
There isn't much point arguing about how these new Romulans are more appropriate given the storyline when the the current storyline came about as a result of retconning out the old one.
Actually Warz I'm going to have to point out you using a bit of false logic it seems.
Your points about people coming up with solutions for fixing the problems rather than just "coming from the negative" as you put it, doesn't really hold water. You don't need to be a mechanic to know a car is broken, nor do people need to be able to detail a fully fleshed out playable-RSE scenario to know that they dislike the direction Cryptic has taken. In fact, it's kind of Cryptic's job to do the actual fixing. I think we can all agree, though, that the Romulans we are playing are definitely not the Romulans from the TNG/DS9 episodes which pretty much defined Romulans for us. That's certainly more than enough of a starting point for someone to be disappointed in the Romulan Republic.
Ah, see this is not true. Most of the critics have not been acknowledging the Lore, Canon, and Story that is been of the Romulans up until this point (to include STO). So no, I'm not using a false logic there.
Instead they remain in stereotypes of what should be. As if all Canadians are nice or all Americans are fat/overweight etc.
I've not once said those notions were "wrong", just that calling the Romulan Republic not Romulan is wrong.
The rest I think methodus2063 addressed well. We're acknowledging Cryptic's need to make this playable in game too within those constraints.
If you follow in STO everything is on a timeline, so the RR can change too, the KDF and Federation could get a truce, etc. LoR shows that Cryptic will do things ground up in a sense, within what they can.
As I and others have already noted, we don't need to 'work against her' She was't a Tal Shiar lackey until LoR rolled around. There are plenty of non-tal shiar military elements present (many if not most of the Romulans fought in the episdodes for the federation are normal military)in both the background (she won her position of empress with the help of a taris-opposed general, she went into exile with her personal fleet) In any case, the normal romulan military seems to be getting retconned out with LoR.
There isn't much point arguing about how these new Romulans are more appropriate given the storyline when the the current storyline came about as a result of retconning out the old one.
I don't think they are getting retconned at all.
How many of there were left? Tomeer's story (yes ask him dern questions!) shows that some of them left and joined D'Tan's movement for the new Romulan Republic.
If anything, the old storyline was setting up this if you were watching.
I am curious where you see this; "There are plenty of non-tal shiar military elements present" in STO?
Ah, see this is not true. Most of the critics have not been acknowledging the Lore, Canon, and Story that is been of the Romulans up until this point (to include STO). So no, I'm not using a false logic there.
Um....most of us have been arguing from a lore/canon/etc perspective....
Instead they remain in stereotypes of what should be. As if all Canadians are nice or all Americans are fat/overweight etc.
I've not once said those notions were "wrong", just that calling the Romulan Republic not
Romulan is wrong.
People would be justifyably upset if with the LoR patch the klingons all of a sudden started acting diplomatic and conflcit adverse. If they only took up arms to defend their peaceful farming lifestyle, if they joined vulcan monastaries en masse. Klingons and Romulans have certain iconic traits that are identified with them. You may call that a stereotype, I call that culture. Besides, it has already been discussed how a Romulan can adhere to these expectations and still be unique in their own regard, such as Toreth.
How many of there were left? Tomeer's story (yes ask him dern questions!) shows that some of them left and joined D'Tan's movement for the new Romulan Republic.
If anything, the old storyline was setting up this if you were watching.
I am curious where you see this; "There are plenty of non-tal shiar military elements present" in STO?
you have an increadible capacity to ignore even the most simple or responses. Ifyou had bothered to read the portions of my reply in parenthesis, or the last sentence of my post, you may have noticed that I already addressed these points in the message you quoted.
I think it would have been more of a mistake. One of the key things about the Romulans from the show was just how much of a mystery they were. Picard could never quite tell what they were thinking, or planning, or if they were being honest or not. Playing from the Romulan side would destroy that sort of mystery by removing that any guess work of what your character was up to.
And frankly, I don't think the community would have settled for a half finished faction to come out, and the way the game is set up, you can't throw a third faction into the mix, especially when it comes to PvP. They still want to maintain a two sided conflict, and this was the best compromise to get what we wanted in. A distinct faction, that works with in one of the other factions of your choice, and getting benefits of these choices, while still having both a uniquely Romulan experience and story, as well as access to enough end game content to keep us happy and content till the next season and the content that comes with that. Which would more than likely included extended content for the Romulans to play.
It's sorry that you feel that way. Time will tell what they decide to do with the Romulan Republic. And I'm sure there will be content that people of your mindset will enjoy. Which might explain why the dev team decided to allow you to have the Tal shiar outfits, and the IRW monicker for your ships, so that you can role play as the more "traditional" Romulan, or even as a Tal Shiar agent, from the olden days.
It's not like it would be hard to have mystery in a storyline where you were part of the Tal Shiar, in fact I think it'd be more fun to actually be part of the mystery. Not only would you have the NPCs doing mysterious things, you could participate in stories where you were the mysterious one. Instead, the storylines could easily be replaced with Federation fighting Borg.
A sudden invasion by a new species with highly advanced technology, where they come out of nowhere and abduct people to make new soldiers, who don't speak or reason with you. You spend your time trying to defend against their raids and find a way to beat them. Frankly it's lazy writing imo, which is worse than bad writing.
You say that "most Romulans are not the cloak and dagger folks" but that's not really something you get to decide. We go by the ones shown on the shows, such as the lady delivering soup who is adept enough at the "cloak and dagger" game to see that Picard/Data are more than they seem. Heck, all of the Unificationists were in hiding right under the Romulan's noses, so they had to be part of the cloak and dagger crowd. It was a way of life for pretty much all the Romulans we saw in the shows. You say that Tal Shiar agents would just be bullies, but again that would be lazy writing. A Tal Shiar agent could be anything from James Bond to Elim Garak.
As far as people accepting a half-finished faction, well we're putting another half-finished one in, after having lived with a half-finished one since day one. Deciding the fate of an entire faction on wanting to have 2-team PvP is a terrible design decision. They could easily have solved all their problems regarding populations and 2-team pvp by having the Romulans side with the Klingons for PvP as a tentative "enemy of my enemy" where they both hate the Federation more. But then of course that would mean Cryptic would have to actually think about this "war" between the Fed/KDF where they can't decide if it's still going or not.
What they're really doing is this: Imagine if they decided to have a Star Trek Online MMO, and they announced many of the species from the Federation would be playable. Then they announced you wouldn't actually get to play the Federation; you could fight them and be asked to join them during the story, but you couldn't actually be part of the Federation. Instead, you only got to play the Maquis.
Would you really be happy with a Star Trek where you could only play the Maquis, especially when the Federation was your favourite part of the show?
Making excuses like "they have a limited time to work on this" and others doesn't cut it in my opinion. They're the ones who set the timetable, are we really going to excuse them for rushing out a half-finished faction instead of taking the time to do it right? It took them 3+ years to get KDF even reasonable, how can we expect anything less for Romulans?
Saying that "Time will tell" what happens to the Romulans specifically points out that they're not done yet. The idea of using "role play" to shore up design flaws is also a cop-out in my mind. Imagine if they never let you play a human, but told you to be a Bolian and "role play" that you just had cosmetic surgery and you're really a spy. Imagine if the Klingons/Romulans didn't have cloaks and were told to "role play" their cloaking and de-cloaking.
The expansion hasn't even launched yet and we're already making excuses and suggesting that the "next season" will really fix things this time. What's wrong with wanting them to have been finished when they're launched?
Ah, see this is not true. Most of the critics have not been acknowledging the Lore, Canon, and Story that is been of the Romulans up until this point (to include STO). So no, I'm not using a false logic there.
Instead they remain in stereotypes of what should be. As if all Canadians are nice or all Americans are fat/overweight etc.
Actually as others have pointed out, you're not correct on this point either. Also the false logic isn't anything to do with the canon, it's that you're trying to make out like people shouldn't complain about it being wrong if they don't have a solution to fix it. Again, you don't have to know how to fix a car to know it's broken, and you don't have to be a game dev to know that a design is broken.
As far as stereotypes, that's not what we're talking about here, we're talking about the identity given to us by the shows and the canon.
Could you imagine if they told everyone who loved the Federation that they could only play the Maquis? That wouldn't be satisfactory.
What if they said that the Federation didn't represent humans and that the Maquis was what "real" humans were like? That wouldn't be satisfactory to me.
What if they told all the people who wanted to play Federation but were forced to play Maquis, that they should just "role play" that they're a Federation spy? That wouldn't be satisfactory.
well... to fair. Many people HAD solutions. It was stated by the head guy on this very forum "Thats the story we are telling." and that any input we had was mute.
The issue is two fold anyway. We are made part of the Faux Romulans. But before you can wrap your head around having to wear a scarf, you are forced to be herded into another faction.
Comments
I don't think it is ever established or even referenced that she has exercised less military and social control compared to the other Romulan praetors-if anythign, she is painted as being in more control, even after the new retcons.
Before the retcons, there was definate evidence of the existance of a non-tal shiar military presence, both as ground troops and fleet ships-you fought a lot of non-Tal Shiar in many of the episodes, so I don't think that a non-tal shair military support is much of an issue. Besides, when she went into exile (and when she returned) she had her fleet with her, as well as her Hirogen allies. There's general Velal, for isntance.
I'm going to have to disagree. They want to rebuild the RSE, but explicitly as something different in cultural values than the old RSE of TNG. it seems to me to be mroe of a 'grass is greener over there' sort of situation rather than out of Loyalty to the RSE.
I'm pretty sure that 'Face of the Enemy' is the only episode in which the tal Shair are mentioned by name, but lets not split hairs
Anyways, a retcon is a retcon. The whole introduction of the Romulan Republic rests on recons, without which a RSE faction would have been perfectly reasonable. Heck, even with the retcons, a lot of people have been saying they would *still* rather play as the RSE- they are that iconic. The Republic are neither necessary, nor a natural evolution of the storyline (since they required a lot of retcons to work).
We would be better off without them.
That is precisely what I'm trying to get some folks to realize on their own. It's easy to be a critique when you don't have to do any of the work
Though interesting gameplay on it's own, it'd be like the KDF from the start of STO. We could be given VA missions like that later on. When "game wise" a new senate is convened etc. Right now, lets get it out the door.
I think KDF suffers in population because of it's horrible start, so many were turned off by it that they have more "mains" in the Federation they don't want to build up a KDF. I actually only got a 50 Orion because of the costume/reboot of the KDF.
I'm still only lvl 36 on my Orion, and I started a KDf with the costume reboot to the Orions. There's not enough mission content to slide right on through, story wise. Am lookoing forward to the new content for KDF on the 21st.
I HATE and LOATHE the infamous "They".
Who is this "They", right now we just have D'Tan and unificationists. Admittedly, I have only gotten to level 11 because I do not want to spoil my Romulan and I only went to the beta test because I was absolutely curious what direction they took with the Romulan Republic and the Choice between Fed and KDF. Oh yes, I would not have played a Romulan if they "joined" one of them. :P
The Romulan Republic will have at some point convene a Senate not full of unificationists and then the "they" will be them. Not all Romulans left agree with him and that's said actually by Tovan himself. I'm sure more Romulans joining the Romulan Republic will eventually change the tone of the Romulan Republic.
If anything Parlimentaries, Senates, etc of our current world displays anything of how much disagreements there can be. The old Senate did oppose Taris before she dissolved them after all. The "new" Senate may eventually oppose D'Tan at some point.
The only big difference at this point is the Romulan Republic founders want a more open and less conquest oriented Republic. That is "for now", Democracy has a vary strange way of changing with the wind.
The Legacy of Romulus is opening the door to show how not all of the Romulans of this new Government are like the unificationists.
I'd hate to live through another half finished faction debacle that the KDf went through. It took three years to bring them up to speed, and the wounds will never heal.
maybe in the future they'll open up monster play for the evil factions like the true way, the borg, and the Tal shiar, but even that won't be what players want.
You know that's patently false and what Romulan wouldn't be opposed to Iconian interference which was long established before this faction came about.
You already had prior to this a Senate who opposed the Monarchy of Taris.
The real question I have for a lot of you, do you really see the RSE being ruled by a Dictator?
Considering we see the Helix etc, we might be seeing the factions of the Temporal Cold War coming together (here comes the Sabatoge etc).
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Romulan
At one point in history, Romulus was a sovereign nation ruled by an Empress, as indicated by Q. (VOY: "The Q and the Grey") By the 23rd century, the highest position of power was held by the Praetor, who presided over the Romulan Senate. (TOS: "Balance of Terror"; Star Trek Nemesis) The Praetor headed the Continuing Committee, which was comprised of the Empire's most elite individuals, who made decisions of the utmost importance. (DS9: "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges")
system Lord Baal is dead
....
What does this have to do with the part of my post you quoted from?
Consdiering the RSE is and has been rueld by dictators in the past, it seems rather fitting that Sela be an Empress. I'd still prefer the Senate/Praetor system, but it seems within character for the RSE.
...
What does the Suliban have to do with anything?
As for your rant about pronouns, you do realize that I was talking about the Romulan Republic there, right? it should have been abundantly clear, considering that I was responding to a six word sentance (two of which were 'Romulan Republic) or were you just waxing a pit pedantic for the sake of drama? Not worth my time to reply to if you are just going to purposefully misinterpruet for the sake of drama.
Because you keep maintaining an assumption that Sela didn't know... she was the Empress, occam's razor, she'd more than likely know about it. Especially after recent events, such as, the attacks on the colony in the Romulan Tutorial are -before- the events of the Federation campaign.
Again a false assertion, you make a lot of these, only in with Q does there allege to have been one and only one before. Until Shinzon all that is known is that there is a Republican government.
But it's Q, are they bound by time?
Really??
That's precisely why I hate they and how you used it, you are speaking about a Government that is at the whims of citizens. Things can change, D'Tan will not be proconsul forever.
a Q would know better then you or me.... and because he said it that is fact and canon
and no they are not bound by time did you not see the EP with the girl Q or was it the one with the Q that committed suicide they went back in time to the start of the big bang ?
system Lord Baal is dead
That's my point, he could be talking about the current Empress or one before... it's Q, who knows.
he was talking pretense and seeing there was no sto or nemesis at the time of the air date of that EP
"Nonsense! I could have chosen a Klingon Targ, a Romulan empress, a Cerelian microbe..."
"Really?! I beat out a single cell organism?! How flattering."
- Q and Janeway
hand to put this forgot how funny that part was
system Lord Baal is dead
Your points about people coming up with solutions for fixing the problems rather than just "coming from the negative" as you put it, doesn't really hold water. You don't need to be a mechanic to know a car is broken, nor do people need to be able to detail a fully fleshed out playable-RSE scenario to know that they dislike the direction Cryptic has taken. In fact, it's kind of Cryptic's job to do the actual fixing. I think we can all agree, though, that the Romulans we are playing are definitely not the Romulans from the TNG/DS9 episodes which pretty much defined Romulans for us. That's certainly more than enough of a starting point for someone to be disappointed in the Romulan Republic.
That being said, I have to say that I think it would actually be a more compelling story if the player's perspective was that of the Tal Shiar and it's attempts to rebuild the Empire of old after such a tragedy. There's a lot of rich history and interesting concepts from that point of view; things like trying to use the Iconians/Elachi for help without becoming subservient to them, dealing with splinter colonies like Virinat or terrorist groups like D'Tans, and trying to reclaim the identity that once dominated major sections of the quadrant. The so called "evil" perspective would provide a much more unique storytelling experience than the current one which could easily have been the Federation trying to save people from the Borg.
Unfortunately, having this group of 'clean slate' Romulans meant they wouldn't really have to deal with any of the story history or defined nature of Romulans, so there was no need for the finesse the storyline might have required. In my opinion, it was taking the easy way out. In much the same manner, the technological requirements of a fully unique playable RSE were circumvented by having the 'clean slate' Romulans forced into joining one of the existing factions. It's for this reason I don't think we'll ever see a proper playable RSE. Having Romulans join the UFP/KDF is a corner-cut to use currently existing content to fill the gaps in what we would've received for a unique faction. This lets them get the expansion out faster but may mean just that much more coding to separate the Romulans, should that idea occur to Cryptic. They essentially may be painting themselves into a corner because of it.
In the end, I think it simply comes down to the fact that for many people like myself, we don't feel like Cryptic is being true to the spirit of Romulans that was branded in our hearts during the shows that we loved. I don't think anyone would have been as disappointed playing the RSE and the Tal Shiar over the Romulan refugees we are now.
I think it would have been more of a mistake. One of the key things about the Romulans from the show was just how much of a mystery they were. Picard could never quite tell what they were thinking, or planning, or if they were being honest or not. Playing from the Romulan side would destroy that sort of mystery by removing that any guess work of what your character was up to.
Also, much like the Klingons, I some times felt that after TOS, many of the enemies fell into stereotypes rather then being a dynamic race, which few got out of. While more cloak and dagger in TNG and DS9, the Romulans where more of a mystery in TOS with more of an emphasis on personal Honor and Duty, then anything else. This makes Romulans far more diverse when it comes to what they are and how they act.
The Klingons went from a strong enemy force always competing with the Federation, to a more fleshed out and cultured warrior race by Star Trek VI. Kang was more than a rampaging barbarian who only thought of attacking every thing that moves. When TNG rolled around the Klingons had morphed into space vikings with fighting as the only true way for a Klingon to live, which brings up major gaps in the culture, like farming and mechanics.
The ferengi where really horrible at first, suppose to show the worst of capitalism, but they did not pose a serious threat as an enemy. the morphed into an interesting side race that dealt with commerce when DS9 came around, and actually turned into s species people liked and could respect.
This is where i think you are wrong. We get to see the Romulans from a more unique perspective, namely from a survivor and citizen, instead of the government, which is what the shows mostly dealt with as far as representing the Romulan people. Just like we can't judge what Americans are like just by looking at our politicians, most Romulans are not the cloak and dagger folks. (otherwise, I doubt that culture would have survived this long). I think it brings back the Romulan idea as it should be, personal Honor and a sense of duty, which each individual decides what that means. For some that means doing what the Empire wants, with out question, while others would retreat even if they had the advantage, because the felt that sort of victor held no meaning. Romulans, much like the klingons claim to be, like strong opponents to test them selves against, and so to prove their worth and skill.
As part of the republic you have to struggle harder and take on larger challanges to prove you are capable, whilst a Tal Shiar agent would really just be bullies, maybe fighting a strong opponent every once in a while. I will admit that part of the reason the designed the story like this was so that they could take advantage of some of the content already available, seeing as they have a limited time to work on this, but I think the story really does bring all aspects of the Romulans to life, and not just one side of it. And the Story is light years ahead of most of the content we have now.
And frankly, I don't think the community would have settled for a half finished faction to come out, and the way the game is set up, you can't throw a third faction into the mix, especially when it comes to PvP. They still want to maintain a two sided conflict, and this was the best compromise to get what we wanted in. A distinct faction, that works with in one of the other factions of your choice, and getting benefits of these choices, while still having both a uniquely Romulan experience and story, as well as access to enough end game content to keep us happy and content till the next season and the content that comes with that. Which would more than likely included extended content for the Romulans to play.
It's sorry that you feel that way. Time will tell what they decide to do with the Romulan Republic. And I'm sure there will be content that people of your mindset will enjoy. Which might explain why the dev team decided to allow you to have the Tal shiar outfits, and the IRW monicker for your ships, so that you can role play as the more "traditional" Romulan, or even as a Tal Shiar agent, from the olden days.
while I dont disagree with you, you also make an assumption that every seems to make. That Romulans = Tal Shiar. We didnt even have to be Tal Shiar.
We could have been normal Romulan military, dealing with the same things you mentioned but also having to worry about the Tal Shiar.
You could have still kept most of the plot points. Defeating Hakeev etc.
Its canon that there was friction between the military and the Tal Shair.
It was also mostly the Military that killed the senate and and staged the Shinzon coup.
But all anyone talks about is Tal Shiar.
Our only options were not Tal Shiar or badly dressed scarf lovers.
Yeah, just like in Star Wars Galaxies. They orginally thought that no wanted to be Han Solo or Greedo but was going to be the guy behind the bar. I know my Star wars dream was to be a chef.
oh come on. we all know this is it. they'll do nothing else.
all that will ever happen is they'll put some toy in a lockbox or come out with another c-store ship.
Just like they decided not to do anything for the Klingons. While I expect alot of Tal Shiar material to be lock box or C store, they are trying to tell a story that will progress, for all factions, and I have no doubt that more will come. What that is when it gets here remains to be unseen, but with LoR, it gives me high hopes that future content will be of good quality.
As for the being part of the military. If the path to 2409 is any indication, there isn't much left that isn't being contorled by Empress Sela. In fact she had to use the Hirogen just to give her military backing when she took the Empire. Most of them that had survive the destruction of Romulus, where sent to try to stabilize the Romulan Klingon border, where the Klingons have been fighting since the destruction of Romulus. The remainder are under her control, as well as the Tal Shiar (see dev blog #1) which leaves very few left to work against her. Most survivng members not wanting to be apart of Sela's Empire, would be living out on the fringe worlds, trying to make a life for them selves. As security and other positions their talents allow.
But hey, if you want to play as something other then A Republic captain, I can guarantee there will be whole story line from the foundry that will give you the alternate Romulans you so desire.
As I and others have already noted, we don't need to 'work against her' She was't a Tal Shiar lackey until LoR rolled around. There are plenty of non-tal shiar military elements present (many if not most of the Romulans fought in the episdodes for the federation are normal military)in both the background (she won her position of empress with the help of a taris-opposed general, she went into exile with her personal fleet) In any case, the normal romulan military seems to be getting retconned out with LoR.
There isn't much point arguing about how these new Romulans are more appropriate given the storyline when the the current storyline came about as a result of retconning out the old one.
Ah, see this is not true. Most of the critics have not been acknowledging the Lore, Canon, and Story that is been of the Romulans up until this point (to include STO). So no, I'm not using a false logic there.
Instead they remain in stereotypes of what should be. As if all Canadians are nice or all Americans are fat/overweight etc.
I've not once said those notions were "wrong", just that calling the Romulan Republic not Romulan is wrong.
The rest I think methodus2063 addressed well. We're acknowledging Cryptic's need to make this playable in game too within those constraints.
If you follow in STO everything is on a timeline, so the RR can change too, the KDF and Federation could get a truce, etc. LoR shows that Cryptic will do things ground up in a sense, within what they can.
I don't think they are getting retconned at all.
How many of there were left? Tomeer's story (yes ask him dern questions!) shows that some of them left and joined D'Tan's movement for the new Romulan Republic.
If anything, the old storyline was setting up this if you were watching.
I am curious where you see this; "There are plenty of non-tal shiar military elements present" in STO?
Um....most of us have been arguing from a lore/canon/etc perspective....
People would be justifyably upset if with the LoR patch the klingons all of a sudden started acting diplomatic and conflcit adverse. If they only took up arms to defend their peaceful farming lifestyle, if they joined vulcan monastaries en masse. Klingons and Romulans have certain iconic traits that are identified with them. You may call that a stereotype, I call that culture. Besides, it has already been discussed how a Romulan can adhere to these expectations and still be unique in their own regard, such as Toreth.
you have an increadible capacity to ignore even the most simple or responses. Ifyou had bothered to read the portions of my reply in parenthesis, or the last sentence of my post, you may have noticed that I already addressed these points in the message you quoted.
Maybe because everyone you ever talk to is Commander or Subcommander and not Colonel or Major?
It's not like it would be hard to have mystery in a storyline where you were part of the Tal Shiar, in fact I think it'd be more fun to actually be part of the mystery. Not only would you have the NPCs doing mysterious things, you could participate in stories where you were the mysterious one. Instead, the storylines could easily be replaced with Federation fighting Borg.
A sudden invasion by a new species with highly advanced technology, where they come out of nowhere and abduct people to make new soldiers, who don't speak or reason with you. You spend your time trying to defend against their raids and find a way to beat them. Frankly it's lazy writing imo, which is worse than bad writing.
You say that "most Romulans are not the cloak and dagger folks" but that's not really something you get to decide. We go by the ones shown on the shows, such as the lady delivering soup who is adept enough at the "cloak and dagger" game to see that Picard/Data are more than they seem. Heck, all of the Unificationists were in hiding right under the Romulan's noses, so they had to be part of the cloak and dagger crowd. It was a way of life for pretty much all the Romulans we saw in the shows. You say that Tal Shiar agents would just be bullies, but again that would be lazy writing. A Tal Shiar agent could be anything from James Bond to Elim Garak.
As far as people accepting a half-finished faction, well we're putting another half-finished one in, after having lived with a half-finished one since day one. Deciding the fate of an entire faction on wanting to have 2-team PvP is a terrible design decision. They could easily have solved all their problems regarding populations and 2-team pvp by having the Romulans side with the Klingons for PvP as a tentative "enemy of my enemy" where they both hate the Federation more. But then of course that would mean Cryptic would have to actually think about this "war" between the Fed/KDF where they can't decide if it's still going or not.
What they're really doing is this: Imagine if they decided to have a Star Trek Online MMO, and they announced many of the species from the Federation would be playable. Then they announced you wouldn't actually get to play the Federation; you could fight them and be asked to join them during the story, but you couldn't actually be part of the Federation. Instead, you only got to play the Maquis.
Would you really be happy with a Star Trek where you could only play the Maquis, especially when the Federation was your favourite part of the show?
Making excuses like "they have a limited time to work on this" and others doesn't cut it in my opinion. They're the ones who set the timetable, are we really going to excuse them for rushing out a half-finished faction instead of taking the time to do it right? It took them 3+ years to get KDF even reasonable, how can we expect anything less for Romulans?
Saying that "Time will tell" what happens to the Romulans specifically points out that they're not done yet. The idea of using "role play" to shore up design flaws is also a cop-out in my mind. Imagine if they never let you play a human, but told you to be a Bolian and "role play" that you just had cosmetic surgery and you're really a spy. Imagine if the Klingons/Romulans didn't have cloaks and were told to "role play" their cloaking and de-cloaking.
The expansion hasn't even launched yet and we're already making excuses and suggesting that the "next season" will really fix things this time. What's wrong with wanting them to have been finished when they're launched?
Actually as others have pointed out, you're not correct on this point either. Also the false logic isn't anything to do with the canon, it's that you're trying to make out like people shouldn't complain about it being wrong if they don't have a solution to fix it. Again, you don't have to know how to fix a car to know it's broken, and you don't have to be a game dev to know that a design is broken.
As far as stereotypes, that's not what we're talking about here, we're talking about the identity given to us by the shows and the canon.
Could you imagine if they told everyone who loved the Federation that they could only play the Maquis? That wouldn't be satisfactory.
What if they said that the Federation didn't represent humans and that the Maquis was what "real" humans were like? That wouldn't be satisfactory to me.
What if they told all the people who wanted to play Federation but were forced to play Maquis, that they should just "role play" that they're a Federation spy? That wouldn't be satisfactory.
Yes, at one time, Sela and the Tal Shiar were at odds.... then the leadership of the Tal Shiar changed.
My character Tsin'xing
She has an entire scene where she tells off Hakeev as he is dying. I think she kicks him once or twice.
well... to fair. Many people HAD solutions. It was stated by the head guy on this very forum "Thats the story we are telling." and that any input we had was mute.
The issue is two fold anyway. We are made part of the Faux Romulans. But before you can wrap your head around having to wear a scarf, you are forced to be herded into another faction.