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Shield Adaptive Frequency Generator (Valdore's console) feedback
adjudicatorhawk
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Hi all,
We're evaluating situations in which the Shield Adaptive Frequency Generator console's effectiveness may be too high. We're still gathering data on its effectiveness, and how much of its healing is overhealing vs. effective healing, so I don't have any concrete plans to share with you since our plan of action will depend on the extent to which it performs in our testing. However, we just wanted to let you know that we are looking at the console and may try to make it less "swingy" if necessary - boosting the theoretical minimum performance and reining in the theoretical maximum performance - if the data supports making that change.
We're evaluating situations in which the Shield Adaptive Frequency Generator console's effectiveness may be too high. We're still gathering data on its effectiveness, and how much of its healing is overhealing vs. effective healing, so I don't have any concrete plans to share with you since our plan of action will depend on the extent to which it performs in our testing. However, we just wanted to let you know that we are looking at the console and may try to make it less "swingy" if necessary - boosting the theoretical minimum performance and reining in the theoretical maximum performance - if the data supports making that change.
Post edited by adjudicatorhawk on
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CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Thank you guys for not coming out swinging the "NERF" bat without giving it some extensive data sweeps to see how the majority of players are benefiting from this console.
After a rocky start to LoR and with so many new players + so much money spent - swinging the nerf bat at this point without taking the whole picture and lots of PvE content(not just CE) into account - could upset a lot of players.
I am affraid that any hasty nerf batting without the bulk of PvE content data which most of the new players with this console play - could lead to more anger towards the devs at a time when things are starting to improve with many fixes.
Personally i think in some situations - definitely in the hands of a Cannon rapid firing Escort in PvP - the console is super powerful, however, with so many new players in the game who don't fully know or understand why cryptic may do something to a new paid for console - nerfing something based on the PvP communities "data" could send the wrong message and leave a bad taste in the bulk of players mouths.
Time is on your side in this one - there is lots of time to keep collecting PvE content data from players using this console.
Having broken stuffs used against players in pvp could upset a lot of players.
Having no chance in fleet actions to get first place could upset a lot of players.
Having to pay 1000zen to have a chance to win first place in fleet action could upset a lot of players.
Well said, this guy has been playing interference ever since I made a thread pointing out how silly this console is right now.
first of all, it appears to have a 2.5% chance to proc per shot, not per cycle like all other weapons porcs, meaning this goes off extreamly often, anywhere between 1 to 7 seconds, with an average of 3 seconds wile CRFing. ive got quite a bit of logs from PVE and PVP showing this. the fact that there isnt some 10 second or so lock out preventing procs this often is frankly disturbing, seriously guys.
the heal apparently can crit. the heal can proc on a weapons crit. so if a heal crits, and a highly buffed GDF DHC shot crits, you can see a heal above 50k. thats the only way i can explain a number that high. ive seen screenshots of heals with 6 figures, presumably from a BO crit, with a heal crit.
a heal that high you cant 'use' really, it wont mater if it heals 10k or 100k if your capacity is 10k. the fact that you can get a full shield heal every 1 to 7 seconds wile fireing is pretty unprecedented though. the last time there was something like this it was the tier 4 rep shield regen if i recall correctly. well this is like that or worse in practice.
this also makes a mockery of all scored pve content, this console=autowin unless you afk. in pvp, just the smallest heals are like being able to activate EPtS every few seconds for the shield heal, that will have quite the effect on any engagement. my rom has a terrible shield and no rep, yet with this console i can shield tank better then my other characters with maco and fleet elite and full rep.
solution- congratulations, you made an out of control console, but you made one thats easy to fix with no pvp vs pve specific issues. because this is based off YOUR weapons fire, and your going to shoot at other players the same as you shoot at npcs, with everything as often as possible.
1. 10 second, at least, proc lockout. maybe even proc on cycle, no per shot.
2. disregard procs on crits. and no heal crits, if that happening. also no procs on BO
3. lower % down to like 125%, or 150%.
this addresses pve scored content runaway healing numbers, and loweres the i win factor considerably in pvp. but its still overpowered pay to win, just not hilariously broken. its like still better then 4 rom shield heal sci consoles combined.
250. Thousand. SP. From a single heal. Stop trying to bring up some business model argument. The console was never advertised to do what it's doing. If we're honest and call it a bug fix rather than screaming nerf then there will be no backlash. Just stop.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Anecdotally, I've seen the bonkers numbers much more often when using AoEs. This leads me to believe that the console may be mistakenly adding multiple hits together to count as a single "tick".
Definitely add an ICD. Definitely prevent the procced heal from critting.
I'm of two minds about locking out procs on BO. On the one hand, tacking on 200k or more to a FA leaderboard plays into the near auto-win effect this console has in scored encounters. On the other hand, I don't see that it would be easy to decouple the console from a specific BOFF ability given that the overload attack appears to be keyed off the beam weapon itself, not specifically the boff ability.
Secondly, in the event of a crit what would occur under the proposed solution? Would the console be unable to crit ever? Would the console crit for the unmultiplied value of the hit?
I disagree. The console is performing exactly as it was designed to. That design was just incredibly shortsighted in terms of what players are capable of in STO.
You and almost everyone else that is calling this a "Bug" and calling for a "nerf" - is in fact a primary PvP player!!
except for the Crystal entity mission- just ONE mission out of 30? that take healing into the ranking rewards - removing healing from the rank rewards would nulify all the arguments that this is getting to place by healing.
and there is like 2 other competetive pve missions -frankly I don't hear any PvE only players complaining.
So you are saying that i need to back off by asking them to take their time reviewing "all" the data and not just "data" provided by primary PvP players like yourself? It shows who has the real motives to get this console nerfed.
And I don't claim that this console does not need an adjustment - or a tone down - just that they should take time doing it - there are lots of factors -and yes players perception of Cryptic - especially new loR players - IS - a major consideration. This IS a business!
Firstly, every fleet action counts healing done as part of the score. Secondly, removing healing would completely prevent support ships from ever placing in any Fleet Action ever again.
This is more than just a PvP issue.
Well I don't see many people complaining who are PvE only players. Most just want to get that rep mission done as quickly as possible - especially the CE.
Every day I am in there in a Fleet Mogai - yes 1st place - and a Fleet B'rel and Fleet T'Varo - both are torp boats and never place. I am well aware of the fact that Fleet Mogai with this console can get me 1st place - do I care? No - do a care that any of my other ships don't? No. I suspect that the "bulk" of players in PvE feel the same - they just want to get the mission over as quickly as possible to get their marks.
That is what the "bulk" of the games population wants - rep content that is either fun - or quick to do. They don't want long - grindy - content that is harder to do!
This is acceptable. Still gives a skewed heal for escorts (turret proc vs dhc proc), and a lower, but more even heal, for beam boats.
It's a handy console, but you can't live forever with it.
Of course the PvE community isn't complaining. That's because most of the PvE community LOVES exploits and bugs that they can use to speed up their grinding. Please note that the tricobalt issue wasn't addressed until PvE facerollers started abusing the hell out of it in STFs.
The PvP community in this game exists, and involves a fair amount of people. What's more, PvPers actually pay attention to how the game works, and help point out stuff that's not working right. Get used to it, and stop pretending PvP concerns aren't valid.
Thanks for acnkowledging the overhealing vs effective healing issue, it leads many people to think this console is far more powerful then it actually is, most of the super high healing numbers from the pvp scoreboard is wasted heals. Perhaps just fixing how healing is logged is all that is necessary. If all the wasted heals are not counted on the scoreboard, we won't see such crazy healing numbers in pvp, and in scored pve like CE players won't easily win 1st because of all the extra healing.
A heal of this size (one which dwarfs all others) will only hurt the game. Please stop trying to make your arguments out to be somehow aimed at protecting STO's future. And please stop trying to stir up animosity between those you perceive as PvP'ers and PvE'ers.
"Player perception" can be handled quite easily by saying "This console was providing 10x the amount of healing it was supposed to, but not it works like its description says." Taking it slow will actually hurt player perception when action is finally taken.
Taking it slow isn't necessary. Not when so many players are available to provide raw logs.
Suspicious of me? Fine. "/combatlog 1" friend. If they throw it open to donations then you can provide your clean data to go alongside mine which must remain in quotes.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
And of course you confirmed that there were no Romulan ships using this console right?
Anecdotal evidence is entirely anecdotal (as is what follows in all fairness). My Sci-Rom has yet to place lower than 2nd in space STFs. Given that in quite a few of those fleet actions i've come in late, not actually tried, or for other reasons not put out a 100% perfect performance either I'm absurdly skilled, I was paired with a bunch of complete morons, or some other factor was at play.
Take a guess as to which I'm putting my money on.
If you read my first post I acknowledged the PvP issue - I have also said that this console need some kind of adjustment.
However, I don't think now is the right time with lots of new players and right after a massive expansion that is only just starting to get fixed in meaningful ways.
I have no doubt that this console will be adjusted - I Just know that when it happens mission failure rate will skyrocket, afking will skyrocket, PvE players who had this console will be crying foul - it is doing what it was advertized to do.
Add all that up if it happens in the summer its going to be very messy in the games pug Q's and a real firestorm on the forums.
And with that I will leave it in the Devs hands.
Good luck all.
Hyperbole much? People completed content perfectly fine before this console was introduced. They'll continue to complete content just as well (actually easier) after this console is made somewhat reasonable.
I think this is definitely necessary no matter what we do with the Valdore console. Overhealing should not be helping people score higher in FEs, which it appears it may be doing.
Ideally, for FE scoring, all players should feel like they have a chance at first place if they're playing well and using their abilities optimally. That's not the case right now (and not all FEs are consistent in their scoring mechanics, though I believe that all FEs do, in fact, give at least some points for healing). This is something we're looking at that's clearly separate from the Valdore console issue, but has had a bright light shone on it by the feedback on the console.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Since the Crystalline Event...April 11th, I have participated in:
3x Capture and Hold,
2x Arena,
1x Duel for Fun,
and been to Ker'rat four times.
Those numbers might be off by one or two, but uh...those numbers are a big change compared to before the Crystalline Event. I used to PvP daily on multiple toons. My KDF guys would usually run Ker'rat with the odd queue while my Fed guys ran queues and sometimes glitched KDF in Ker'rat.
Crystalline Event on a bunch of guys, then getting the invite to the closed LoR beta, then the FE rerun for the guys that hadn't done them, leveling the Reman, and taking another look at trying to grind up/gear up all the guys while various bugs/etc were sorted out...yeah, while obviously I'm not a PvE only player...I'm not the PvP player that I was.
My complaints about the Valdore console in various threads have been PvE related. Part of that is based on my PvP experience...I like popping hull with full shields (it makes me giggle, giggle like an adult male but giggle all the same)...so a shield healing console for PvP didn't really matter. Shields have been so over the top for so long, there's a reason I changed to hull popping long ago.
I started this post off with the Crystalline Event, not only because it was the point where my gameplay changed mainly from PvP to PvE...but also because of what was seen during the event. My two worst toons for PvP...always got first. My main toon, my most geared toon, sometimes did and sometimes did not. My two worst toons though...always.
A Fed Eng in a Mirror Star Cruiser and a KDF Eng in a Mirror Vor'cha. Each built relatively the same, since they were an experiment that I had abandoned. Jem 3pc, mix of Phased Polarons/Polarons, and basically...healing. Yep, during Crystalline scenarios - I would just fly around in circles tossing out random heals and it would guarantee first.
On the other hand, my then main Fed Eng in a Chel Grett would rock SB24/Gorn. The combination of FAW spam and healing would almost always guarantee first. See, it's not about killing things as much as it is about damage spam and healing spam there.
In those two scenarios, there is an undeniable advantage given to a Romulan using the Valdore console in both situations. The KDF/Fed simply cannot compete. That's an issue. It's not a PvP issue. It's a PvE issue. Heck, beyond that - there's a greater advantage for the F-Rom than the K-Rom if you bring Elite Fleet Phasers into the mix.
But that's just "competitive" PvE...it doesn't affect "non-competitive" PvE like STFs, right?
Actually, it does. In this case though, it's not about Tom scoring higher than Jerry. It's about those with the console being able to complete the content/encounter faster/easier than what Cryptic intended.
To keep it simple, take the same 5 man group...Romulans...have them run through an ESTF with and without the console. The difference...noticeable, eh? Then step back and consider the difference for the Roms vs. KDF/Fed, eh?
Yes, anybody that was thinking to use the console as their sole means of healing would probably be laughed at by both sides of this argument. That extreme though...does not change that there is a definite advantage given by the console that appears to go above and beyond what Cryptic may have intended.
Which goes back to what archon was saying...taking a look at both the min and max theoretical performance of the console. Anybody that's followed some of my chief complaints on the forums would know that one of them is the Yo-Yo nature of so many things in STO. This is a Yo-Yo console. No skill involved...you're either rocking with it or you're wondering why the f...Hell you've got it equipped. It's Yo-Yo.
It also taps into another of my complaints...that of magic wand healing. It's Star Trek Online...it's not Star Frolic Online. We're not running through the space forest, our robes flowing in the solar wind, waving our magic wands about, and all that garbage.
So yeah, to me, archon and the guys at Cryptic being open to looking at the Yo-Yo nature of the console is a good thing. Doesn't mean that anything will get changed, but it at least acknowledges that there might be some Yo-Yo issues going on in STO and this could be one.
As Drunk pointed out, this is a per hit proc - not a per cycle proc like other weapon procs.
DHCs 2 shots/3 seconds
DCs/Turrets/Cannons 4 shots/3 seconds
Beams 4 shots/5 seconds
So while other procs are rolling...
DHCs once/3 seconds
DCs/Turrets/Cannons once/3 seconds
Beams once/5 seconds
...this one is rolling...
DHCs twice/3 seconds
DCs/Turrets/Cannons four times/3 seconds
Beams four times/5 seconds
What does that mean for the probability of the proc occurring at least once during each cycle?
For the normal 2.5% weapon proc we have the following:
DHCs 2.5% every 3 seconds
DCs/Turrets/Cannons 2.5% every 3 seconds
Beams 2.5% every 5 seconds
For the Valdore console we have the following:
DHCs 4.9% every 3 seconds
DCs/Turrets/Cannons 9.6% every 3 seconds
Beams 9.6% every 5 seconds
Again, that's at least once...meaning that it can occur twice/four times/four times during those cycles compared to the normal weapon proc.
Simply bringing that in line with the normal weapon procs...would eliminate that Yo-Yo (feast or famine) sort of thing. Note, I haven't done anything but spreadsheet warrior testing with this. It's pure speculation based upon evidence offered by other folks and simple math 'n mechanics.
But the combination of that change and the stuff I saw about overhealing posted as I previewed this...those would be fixes...not nerfs. I definitely understand the underlying fear that exists in asking for things to be fixed...sometimes Cryptic comes out of leftfield with nerfs that don't actually address the issues that people have laid out. Tricobalts anybody? But it's an ongoing review process...if they nerf something too hard, they may buff it again later. I prefer tweaking a little at a time personally than the mad pendulum action we get at times...but if it eventually reaches a more balanced state, isn't that still a good thing?
If rebalancing is called for, I sincerely hope special care is given to not shortchange the latter. In other words, please don't adjust this exclusively with the highest performing outliers in mind.
LOL so feedback on the issue of healing in FA goes back to season 2, came up at Gozers hints at a revamp to FA, at the STF revamp.... and didn't change a thing. sure sounds like you had one hell of a look at it. Another closely monitored WAD i suppose.
But the console is moving things, thats nice.
The solution, however, is not to let the pvp crowd be damned and remove healing from FA scores. Overhealing to score points is about the only reason in STO to equip healing skills outside of PvP. You need to go in the opposite direction. What about its counter part like non effective damage, eg. Keep shooting bops when the map objective has moved on to cruisers in gorn minefield. Will beamboats suffer once more because of AoE dmg vs. Burst?
Make a properly flown eng (whatever that is) get points for what they are doing. That being said i have played with the console and switched ships back immediately its just that silly. Its a pitty when lol mechanics prevent you from enjoying your purchases or lucky draws.
As for ovhealing, the root problem is class balance. Tac give up too little tankiness compared to the dmg boost they get, in a pve meta that is nothing but a DPS race. CE being the only mission taking non-dps into account. If the other FA do take healing into account like you said, which i don't believe is true, chances are you gys forget a few zeros somewhere in the 1st place calculation.
Here is where we are at on a scale from 1-10.
Dmg: tac (10) sci (8) eng (1)
Heal: Eng (10) Sci (9) Tac (6)
CC: sci (10) Tac (6) Eng (4)
The problem is that round about 6 healing turns into overhealing. Since even the most baddass NPC don't do enough regular damage (not borken one shoot torps) to force a kill against a single player.
Look at those ratios, something good comes out of the valdor consoles. Bandaid fixes to individual consoles or items just don't cut it any more. No matter if its TI, elite shields and disruptors, rep procs, or p2w universal consoles. You guys have made a farce of healing in PvE. there is no need for cross healing. There are no more glass cannons. The only reason the valdor console is a problem, is that in CE both things are measure for a change to calculate prices.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Though honestly I bought the Valdore for its looks, so I'll keep using the skin for the Mogai, just will switch the console out for something else like borg assimilated console, a field generator or a -threat sci console.
But to people who bought it for the console, nerfing it would disgruntle them from buying anything else from the store again.
Why pay for a play to win item if it suddenly becomes rather lacklustre? Like the andorian phasers.
As for removing the over-heal count from events, sure I dont care about that. The over-heals can be removed entirely, I doubt any romulan ship can have shields bigger then 12-13k.
My Ha'nom has 12k shields... per facing. Could probably approach (possibly even exceed) 14k with covariant/paratrinic & field gens, but 12k is plenty good enough for me.
Perhaps a science oriented ship, a lot of field generators and a convariant shield, that would have a bit more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=OqL7jyrXhLs#t=4s :P
First of all a cd on the proc would make it useless, its just needs to make it proc on cycle, no cd necesary. Thats why are all those high heals, from stacks since when the chance for proc happens, it lingers for a split second, in wich a CRF or CSV skill delivers severls shots. On a side note, and i didnt see any pvper complaining about it, have u noticed that the omega amplifier behaves exactly the same, it procs per shot, giving usual 2-3 stacks and a huge weapon power drain resistence along with weapon power buff?? But of course if u can use it on ur ship then is not op so no 10 secs cd nerf is necesary.:rolleyes:
Second the shield heals shoudnt count over the cap, just to heal what is left till reaches 100% and if the shield is 100% then to give 0% heals. This would rezolve the problem in PvE actions like Crystaline Entity. Imagine the same bug would happend to the hull heal, i am sure the 2pc borg set would look overpowered aswell since it has even a much bigger proc, and it isnt for nothing the standard pvp set up (2 pc borg+elite shields). The same like the valdore console, it has a big healing potential (like it trigers allmost every time at the smallest dmg u take) but becouse it caps on heals is working as intendend. What it could DO is not the same with what it DOES. And this thing, ppl that actually play with the console, noticed, is not a god mode console or an "I win" button, ppl die on regular basis even with this console, those are just exaggerated cries, mostly from pvpers who cant slot it on their pvp ships so cant get their ego kicks so fast in premades.