Outside of PvP, what is the benefit of a sci/sci over tac/sci ... ???? NONE. (the only possible exception being to SNB Donatra's ship) Inside PvP the only reason to use a sci captain is SNB, and that does not benefit from a sci ship in any way. I have been Sci since launch, yet I hardly play as sci anymore in space as a Tac or Eng is better in every case in every ship except SNB in PvP, and then only on an organized team.
It seems like one person is too busy defending Tac abilities and viability in a sci ship (perhaps justifiaby so). Perhaps the only reason PSW3 got nerf ... er ... fixed was because of its abuse by Tac captains super buffing it. My Tac could easily crit for 60,000 damage in the fleet DSSV. My Sci captain is collecting dust. Science needs help. It is not fair to science captains that Tacs are so much more powerful in a science ship.
Who wants to see 5 Science captains in an STF??? (I know this is PvP forum) The point is well made (even if by TSI) that Science needs help, and it is insulting to Science that Tacs can do so much with a science vessel while Science captains can do nothing better than SNB.
Outside of PvP, what is the benefit of a sci/sci over tac/sci ... ???? NONE. (the only possible exception being to SNB Donatra's ship) Inside PvP the only reason to use a sci captain is SNB, and that does not benefit from a sci ship in any way. I have been Sci since launch, yet I hardly play as sci anymore in space as a Tac or Eng is better in every case in every ship except SNB in PvP, and then only on an organized team.
It seems like one person is too busy defending Tac abilities and viability in a sci ship (perhaps justifiaby so). Perhaps the only reason PSW3 got nerf ... er ... fixed was because of its abuse by Tac captains super buffing it. My Tac could easily crit for 60,000 damage in the fleet DSSV. My Sci captain is collecting dust. Science needs help. It is not fair to science captains that Tacs are so much more powerful in a science ship.
Who wants to see 5 Science captains in an STF??? (I know this is PvP forum) The point is well made (even if by TSI) that Science needs help, and it is insulting to Science that Tacs can do so much with a science vessel while Science captains can do nothing better than SNB.
Imo, PVE is by in large a damage race oustide of NSW. I'd rather have a debuffing Sci or 2 w/CC & a heal or 2 in a PuG group than a Eng who doesn't add much since a TAC would do better damage and a Sci would be better CC and also debuffs.
I do believe in general many more Sci abilities should be significantly more effective in PvE, and they should use resists to tone them down for PvP where they should be a viable playstyle option w/more options than is currently realistic. Also, Tac abilities shouldn't boost them only Skill Point investment and consoles/deflector slots should improve them.
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What if Tac buffs scale with weapon power? At full, they work the same as they do now. If you happen to go full aux for science, you lose your damage buffs. In most situations it isn't a nerf, some science ship fits will still work but have to be tac oriented. Then take a look again at how aux does too little for some powers (especially PSW).
It doesn't help that weapon power fluctuates of course, can anyone think of a way around that? Maybe instead of basing it on the 125 part of 125/100 it could be scaled on the base power level. Anyway, it's an idea.
I would also still like some sci and eng captain abilities to be looked at a bit more...
That would be nerf to torpedoes / spike dmg. Why not fix science captains instead finding options how to TRIBBLE tactical captains ? Or why not get rid of captain classes and let everyone pick one of three choices at each rank.
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Are you here for real, or are you just trolling us along? I've skimmed the posts now, and so much of what you say makes no sense. Like:
What sci ability can a sci captain do better than a tac captain? (=none, while a tac captain can do almost all sci skills better than a sci. To a greater or smaller degree))
Why do you keep talking about Graviton consoles and TBR? If you push your targets out of range, it's a sure way to miss your kill. You want particle gens.
Yes, Tac captain give en enormous advantage to some sci skills, including TBR. On TBR3 you can get almost 3k damage per pulse with Tac buffs. A sci can only get half. Thats 30k damage vs 15k when used on someone running APO.
FBP will deal back 70% of incoming damage on a sci toon. A tac captain can deal back 150%!
Shockwave, also more than double figures.
Ok so GW and Tykens damage are so small thet even doubled they're a joke, but it's still better than nothing, right?
You talk about energy drains being deadly? First of all, to anyone with a few points in insulators they're a joke. (except the few that are broke with regards to resist. Like siphon drones) In addition, almost all builds carry at least two abilities to restore shields. Even on my Defiant I have EPtoS and RMC (sustitute shield battery if you don't have it).
I'm starting to get a feeling you don't know half of the abilities in the game, and still pretends to lecture the veterans of the game. The ones that know it so well that half the pug players will still zone out when facing them in an arena. Who are you anyway? Can't remember ever crossing phasers with you...
Are you here for real, or are you just trolling us along? I've skimmed the posts now, and so much of what you say makes no sense. Like:
What sci ability can a sci captain do better than a tac captain? (=none, while a tac captain can do almost all sci skills better than a sci. To a greater or smaller degree))
Why do you keep talking about Graviton consoles and TBR? If you push your targets out of range, it's a sure way to miss your kill. You want particle gens.
Yes, Tac captain give en enormous advantage to some sci skills, including TBR. On TBR3 you can get almost 3k damage per pulse with Tac buffs. A sci can only get half. Thats 30k damage vs 15k when used on someone running APO.
FBP will deal back 70% of incoming damage on a sci toon. A tac captain can deal back 150%!
Shockwave, also more than double figures.
Ok so GW and Tykens damage are so small thet even doubled they're a joke, but it's still better than nothing, right?
You talk about energy drains being deadly? First of all, to anyone with a few points in insulators they're a joke. (except the few that are broke with regards to resist. Like siphon drones) In addition, almost all builds carry at least two abilities to restore shields. Even on my Defiant I have EPtoS and RMC (sustitute shield battery if you don't have it).
I'm starting to get a feeling you don't know half of the abilities in the game, and still pretends to lecture the veterans of the game. The ones that know it so well that half the pug players will still zone out when facing them in an arena. Who are you anyway? Can't remember ever crossing phasers with you...
I have to ask the same questions about you. I mean seriously you people are either trolling, thinking that with a straight face a Graviton Tac will do anything in terms of effective dps, next to a sci's Sub Nuc, force multiplication abilities (or if the sci is double Vming)
Why? Because if you aren't a moron, you hit this magical button with your TBR called Evasive. Which keeps your target more or less in range, and pushes it farther away from team mates. Farther push however, = less DPS for a tac. Guess what class benefits from a higher push though. Sci. It kicks the target out farther, and makes that SNB all the more potent when it lands as the target is much less likely to receive friendly heals.
Tykens, is better for sci than it is tacs. Know why chump? Because it's DPS dealing capability is Jack and TRIBBLE. Even fully tac buffed with a 20 percent go down fighting bonus. Making it a better choice for a sci captain than a tac.
Shockwaves damage is pathetic, even with tac buffs now, especially for the lengthy cool down. It's only purpose in pvp now is to knock off extends. Meaning it's more useful as a Debuff than it is an attack.
TBR Damage only if you have particle gen consoles. However guess what chump, that's not the only use for TBR. There's this thing called Repel. And it gets ludicrously stronger the more graviton consoles you have. Those said consoles, eat away Tremendous amounts of dps for a tac. So a tac running with Gravitons is a ****ing Moron. Kind of like you butt hurt lil girls.
No it's not better when your DPS is not even enough to punch out native hull regen, and native HDR, it's Craptastic. A sub nuke in that situation? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> APA and if you are too stupid to see that maybe you should uninstall.
You see, it's called building to your strengths. A tac building for Debuffing, repels, or zone denial, is a Moron. Similarly a sci building for DPS is also you guessed it a Moron. A tac running heavy on debuffs, and repels, is every bit as fail tastic as a sci running for dps. And if you feel sci should do dps as well as a tac can, then YOU are the one with no conception of game balance and game mechanics.
Also champ, that tykens vid I linked earlier? the target had ranks in insulators. You get a TR3 and Doff proc and they will notice it. You get 2 TR3s and Doffs and they will be crippled. So go faceroll yourself.
And I bet my sci would roll yours, and make yours look sorry (and including Mai kai) in every match we que together with. Either allied or adversaried.
You idiots and I do mean that quite sincerely at this point, act like some how SNB doesn't synergize well with debuff strikes. What's next you gonna start claiming tacs are super healers compared to engineers, cause APA boosts turn rate and thus marginally boosts survivability while boosting their dps output?
I mean really, how about this, start asking for Scattering field to add bonuses to sci debuffs (ie Gravitons, Countermeasures, and Decompiler) instead of whining like pve heroes that "oh nooes tacs can do dps in a sci ship!" Your case would be much better, and much better grounded in Reality instead of your Vagisil needing rants.
Or how about this. You want tac buffs to only work on weapons, which WILL kick tac sci into Useless Failboat again status. To compensate, let all sci ships mount Dual Heavy Cannons and give + 1 tac consoles across the board. Because without tac buffed sci skills, tac dps in a sci ship is a complete farce. And that is quite literally the only thing tacs are good for.
Outside of PvP, what is the benefit of a sci/sci over tac/sci ... ???? NONE. (the only possible exception being to SNB Donatra's ship) Inside PvP the only reason to use a sci captain is SNB, and that does not benefit from a sci ship in any way. I have been Sci since launch, yet I hardly play as sci anymore in space as a Tac or Eng is better in every case in every ship except SNB in PvP, and then only on an organized team.
It seems like one person is too busy defending Tac abilities and viability in a sci ship (perhaps justifiaby so). Perhaps the only reason PSW3 got nerf ... er ... fixed was because of its abuse by Tac captains super buffing it. My Tac could easily crit for 60,000 damage in the fleet DSSV. My Sci captain is collecting dust. Science needs help. It is not fair to science captains that Tacs are so much more powerful in a science ship.
Who wants to see 5 Science captains in an STF??? (I know this is PvP forum) The point is well made (even if by TSI) that Science needs help, and it is insulting to Science that Tacs can do so much with a science vessel while Science captains can do nothing better than SNB.
SNB, and heal. Because Sci Fleet is well above and beyond the call of duty for keeping your ship together while You can give heals. Oh and it gives all your team mates the same massive SDR bonus.
Also, frankly I couldn't care less about pve. PvE is Faceroll stuff anyway.
Also further, the problem isn't tac captains. It's the state of the Stupid TRIBBLE Skill Tree that allows you to have 50 +percent resistances, passively to debuffs when specced up, especially when coupled with the massive OverHealing this game has.
Tykens, is better for sci than it is tacs. Know why chump? Because it's DPS dealing capability is Jack and TRIBBLE.. (etc...)
so your main argument is that a tac captain is only improving the abilities a bit, and that is for some reason worse than not improving them all? Being a little bit better is worse than being a little bit worse?
(PS: that vagisil comment is a dead giveaway. C'mon, you can do better than this. BTW: As I have barely touched my sci toon, or a sci ship, since the skill revamp, I have no doubt you would beat me in a sciship. I stopped doing sci/sci when I found other combinations were stronger after the revamp)
I personally would go away from direct dmg on science ship abilities and make them debuffs.
Tachyon beam = shield breach, debuffs the target shield dmg reduction for duration. Resists would reduce the duration of the debuff, cleared by science team. Duration is improved by Aux. Ideally, a tachyon beam 1 would counter Emergency Power to Shields 1 + 50 shield power effect.
Charged Particle Burst = disables cloak, debuffs the target and prevents shields to be healed by natural regen or abilities for the duration. Resists would reduce the duration of the debuff, cleared by science team. Duration is improved by Aux.
As for boosting science captains in sci ships. I would change sensor scan.
I would remove the dmg resistance debuff, and apply a new buff type that improves the magnitude of all offensive sci effect used on victim.
so your main argument is that a tac captain is only improving the abilities a bit, and that is for some reason worse than not improving them all? Being a little bit better is worse than being a little bit worse?
(PS: that vagisil comment is a dead giveaway. C'mon, you can do better than this. BTW: As I have barely touched my sci toon, or a sci ship, since the skill revamp, I have no doubt you would beat me in a sciship. I stopped doing sci/sci when I found other combinations were stronger after the revamp)
It's at Effective 0. Now compare that to removing someone's 75 percent SDR, 60 percent HDR, along with the HOTs that will definitely be on the target at the time, lengthening firing cycles, and cool downs on all abilities with the press of a button. While applying the same boff skill. SNB wins that hands down.
TRIBBLE bonus dps, vs Removal of heals. Seriously man, TR3, (even GW3 the other supposed big bad of tac scipeen#s) does lower dps than a Non High Yielded Torpedo does. GW3, fully auxed up, particle genned, and tac buffed, does less than a Transphasic Torp Spread 2 with buffs. To say nothing of possible constant pelting with a torp after that. Your Tack Buffed Turrets, will do more dps than a GW3 (no, seriously they do.)
PSW3 is on par with a nekkid tac buffed quantum in damage output. To say nothing of the laughably bad PSW1.
SNB is a much stronger ability than APA and GDF are, when low dps skills come into play. I'd argue that it's almost stronger period anyway given that you can dump 4 to 5 alphas into a target that's being cross healed, and without an SNB you won't down the target at all.
TBR is presently the only decent DPS sci skill left in the game, (FBP is too situation dependent) and even it's crank power isn't nearly what it was a while ago. Gone are the Crit Chains against multiple targets, it's crit chance is also lower than it was previously, per pulse. Tac Sci are on their way down the Flusher. Every bit as fast as Sci Sci is.
Maybe you pug too much. (and Maikai plays with his guildies and friends, so he's at minimum pugmading all the time. Which you are going to Face **** pugs anyway, SNB or not) Pugs don't heal, pugs don't use Resists correctly. So SNBs power is largely drained away, in those kind of situations.
Sci Powers, outside of Tractor 1, VM, TBR, and Doffed Up Spammed TR3s are offensively pathetic. Not a single one of them work properly anymore. It's not Tacs fault that this happened either. We can blame this squarely on Gecko not liking sci powers because "zomg not like trek at all!" while he puts more Dumb TRIBBLE Carriers into the game which NEVER appeared in trek.
Coincidentally, Tractor 1, VM, and TBR can also be fielded equally strong as a tac can field it. (maybe abit stronger since TBR changed abit) providing they don't try to use the last one as a dps skill but as a repulsion effect.
There were a couple of points earlier on by Mai Kai that I thought were interesting and wanted to ask questions about, so I'm sorry for necroing a bit here.
this thread has nothing to do with what a science captain can or can't do. it has to do with why is it a tactical captain can boost science powers but a science captian cant. its been like this since day one, and i've never understood why that is.
I have a similar question, but it's also slightly different.
I've also wondered as well why the Science captain can't really enhance their powers in any particular fashion better than a Tac.
I'm sort of neutral in the Tac buffing or not being able to buff Sci power damage.
On the one hand that's what Tacs do, damage. On the other hand, the way the game is designed the Sci captain does nothing to Sci powers at all - damage or otherwise, and that certainly doesn't make much sense either.
While you've specifically said this thread is notabout what Sci captains can or can't do, if you ever get an idea to create a thread of what they should be able to do to enhance their ships - that's one I'd be very interested in (and I think we can all just hope maybe Bort sees it and finds something to take away from it).
Let's say Tacs do continue to buff the damage of Sci powers, I would really love for a Sci captain to be able to add Debuffs/Crowd Control to any ship they Captain. (Technically they do with Subnuc and Sensor Scan, but it's not on the level of a tac being able to completely buff the damage of anything and everything or an Eng being able to make anything more survivable).
I would like for them to be able to directly enhance the weapons to match the way Tacs can buff Sci damage powers. (caveat, this could also be some scary territory).
Imagine an APA equivalent, but instead of criticals and damage - weapons & powers have slows, drains or similar added to their base effects - could be exciting, could also be terrifyingly overpowered but it's a fun idea.
i dont think its right that a tactical in a science ship can make the most of his guns (full weapon power) sensor anylasis (extra weapon damage) and make the most of non aux damage sci powers (like shockwave) and then add all of his extra bonuses from tactical captain abilities on top of all 3 of those.
the extra damage should only apply to weapon damage from a tactical. otherwise it seems tacitcals are better at sci then science.
I don't technically disagree, but they are better at killing with science.
I'd like to see Sci captains actually make Sci powers better at doing many of the other things Sci powers are (or should be, rather) designed to do.
That being said, I'm not sure how to accomplish that without re-writing the entire set of sci captain abilities.
yes the anwser should be to boost debuffs. but since the first patch a couple years ago science powers that dont deal damage have been slowly and slowly become more and more useless.
Yes, this is a major system wide issue. It's pretty atrocious.
why is this such a bad thing to want tacticals to be good at dealing weapon damage and not all damage? if you want to deal damage as a tactical officer then the ideal remark should be "go fly an escort or cruiser" but nope! its "go fly whatever you want because your powers increase ALL damage you do reguardless of how you do it!" that isnt very balancing IMO.
I just want to re-iterate that I am on the fence about this issue - I do think that the above statement also holds true for an Engineer.
An engineer can also go fly whatever they want and make it amazingly more survivable.
The problem, I think, is that a Sci captain does not get the same mileage nor lend enough to make their ship do any one thing really well.
You can't say the same thing about a Sci captain that you can about Tacs and Engineers, and that's a shame.
crowd control,
science in a science ship (in theory) should be the best at this! wrong. a tactical can do a lot more dps and all the crowd controlling science captian could do.
This is the disjointed part in my opinion.
I think Sci captains as they are designed lack focus. They have no real crowd control to speak of and no way to really add it to ships in a major fashion.
They have some Debuffing and some buffs, and photonic fleet.
And while powers like Subnuc and Sensor Scan are good the design of the class is all over the place - unlike Tacs that have a number of ways to simply make things die and Engineers that have a number of ways to increase their survivability.
I really think the design of Sci captains is the culprit here, and I'd be very interested in your opinion.
I think that behinds mai's and ghosty's battle of whits are two maybe three separate issues.
1) Sci ships are imbalanced any player class does better in cruisers or escorts depending on their preference.
I had once suggested that sci ships should get passive boosts (much like Sensor Analysis) that has one effect on their own ship, and another applied to their team. With a limit to them stacking. Making sci ships more effective at solo PvE and at high level PvP. Each ship could have a unique flavor to this boost making for moare chocies which is always good.
2) Player class balance embodied in their cpt skills has come somewhat out of whack. The amount of external healing to keep a tac/scort alive has dropped radically, by introducing the jem bug/stacking shield distro doffs/the skill tree revamp/the low oportunity cost of the assimlated borg set pieces and maybe even more factors.
Furthermore, the nadion cpt skill for engs has lost much of its potential with the weapons energy consumption revamp. Taken together it makes Engs somewhat pointless beyond bringing one healer eng in a team (space that is, the new OS and explosives have somewhat made the class viable for ground pve again).
While i think that SNB is great the way it is (much more powerful then APA) in pvp it is kind of meh in PvE. Be that as it may, it would be great to get more synergy between Sci/sci combo. It is indeed a bit weird that Tac boost sci skills better then Sci. I'm fine with high crit PSW3 being reserved for tacs, but a similar increase in the stun would be a nice thing. basically make cc and debuff more effective and make that part of the sci profession. Sci fleet has never made much sense to me, even after the nerf.
Tac opportunity cost seems just to low. There are no more glass cannons, PvE is a DPS race so there really isn't much reason to fly anything but tac.
3) the sci part of the skill tree revamp has kicked sci (class and ship) in the nuts hard. A nerf was in order but it went to far. Start by fixing this, then rebalance player skills and then lets take a look at BOs/ship class balance.
I just wanna poke my nose in here to say that I've been reading this thread with interest. Please carry on.
i dont think anyone here agrees with ghostyandfrosty. theres no reason a tac/sci couldn't load up on graviton gens and switch to more controlling tactics then pure damage dealing tactics. they can do both, wile sci can just control. the sci can also not make full use of snb's power by itself, it needs a heavy hitter around to do that for him. the tac sci doesn't need any help, it can be a heavy hitter all by itself, bypassing shields almost completely and being able to kill with half the effort it takes to kill someone any other way. thats not to say it isn't extreamly tricky to do correctly.
i dont think anyone here agrees with ghostyandfrosty. theres no reason a tac/sci couldn't load up on graviton gens and switch to more controlling tactics then pure damage dealing tactics. they can do both, wile sci can just control. the sci can also not make full use of snb's power by itself, it needs a heavy hitter around to do that for him. the tac sci doesn't need any help, it can be a heavy hitter all by itself, bypassing shields almost completely and being able to kill with half the effort it takes to kill someone any other way. thats not to say it isn't extreamly tricky to do correctly.
Sure there is. Your DPS will be TRIBBLE if you load up on gravitons instead of particle gens. How about you go try it yourself. Have fun with your 3k crits, that are easily repaired and mitigated.
Your best Asset, which is Damage becomes non existent when you do that. Turrets will deal more effective DPS than you will with gravitons.
Sci on the other hand? Their best asset remains. It actually makes more sense to do it as a sci, and likely you'll have more kills at the end of a match doing that, than a tac will.
"Raw dmg tac will be better though zomg zomtg!" Yeah. And that damage is FAR more easily taken care of than the sub nuc that the sci will be giving once he gets the target far away from his allies. And then after that the sci will actually do -more- damage out put than the tac will. Why? Because Buffs matter.
Tac sci, 9/10 times will not deal nearly as much death as a Tac escort. In that 1/10 circumstances, the enemy has been heavily debuffed, and mauled by almost everyone on the team.
And that's in the Best Case of having multiple TBRs to work with. Because Grav Well, regardless of console type isn't going to do Jack.
A sci, using TR3 can rip off buffs, and score kills with a combo of chroniton TRIBBLE, TR3 procs, lolarons a Sub Nuc and Target Subs. A tac on the othe rhand will be dealing laughably bad damage while TR3 is up, that is more than easily mitigated by enemy healing.
Of course this all assumes you aren't facing pugs that are killable by Overload 1 carrying Shuttles as well.
But hey what do I know. It's not like I'm a high end pvper or anything. It's not like I spend 50 percent of the small time I do play anymore, in sci sci, or tac scis or anything.
I just wanna poke my nose in here to say that I've been reading this thread with interest. Please carry on.
Hopefully you'll see the issue isn't with tactical class, it is with science class, which DO have very annoying and effective skills. Not saying there isn't room for improvement, but please don't do an insane buff...
Perhaps the following could be done to each of the professions..
For Tacticals, Attack Pattern Alpha, and Go down Fighting, would be changed to only work on Weapons.
Tactical Officers would then have an Innate Space Trait, Any Power that deals damage would get a X% Damage boost, starting at 1% at Lt 1 and raising to 5% At VA/LG 50. (Example of Powers effected: Gravity Well, Eject Warp Plasma, etc..)
Science Officers would have an Innate Space Trait that would increase the Durations of any Targeted/AOE based effects by 1% Starting at Lt 1 raising to 5% at VA/LG 50, and increase shield resists by .5% at LT1 to 2.5% at VA/LG 50. (Example of powers effected: Viral Matrix, Photonic Shockwave's Stun, etc..)
Engineering Officers would have an Innate Space Trait that would Increase the durations of any Personal/Self Powers by 1% Starting at Lt 1 raising to 5% at VA/LG 50, and increase Hull resists by .5% at LT1 to 2.5% at VA/LG 50. (Example of powers effected: Emergency Power to X, Polarized hull etc..)
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Sure there is. Your DPS will be TRIBBLE if you load up on gravitons instead of particle gens. How about you go try it yourself. Have fun with your 3k crits, that are easily repaired and mitigated.
Your best Asset, which is Damage becomes non existent when you do that. Turrets will deal more effective DPS than you will with gravitons.
Sci on the other hand? Their best asset remains. It actually makes more sense to do it as a sci, and likely you'll have more kills at the end of a match doing that, than a tac will.
the fundamental flaw in this thinking is that if you were flying a tac to control, you don't care about your damage. it doesn't mater if you deal as much damage as a sci at that point. the tac when ever he wishes can then swap to particles and go for damage, buffed tremendously by his tac skills. a sci cant ever do that.
"Raw dmg tac will be better though zomg zomtg!" Yeah. And that damage is FAR more easily taken care of than the sub nuc that the sci will be giving once he gets the target far away from his allies. And then after that the sci will actually do -more- damage out put than the tac will. Why? Because Buffs matter.
Tac sci, 9/10 times will not deal nearly as much death as a Tac escort. In that 1/10 circumstances, the enemy has been heavily debuffed, and mauled by almost everyone on the team.
do you not realize that to a properly set up tac/sci your target might as well not have shields equipped? that its direct to hull damage with tac buff FBP followed by TBR is enough to kill even a cruiser through its shields? i guess you never encountered one like that, i sure have. any other captain in any other ship will always have to deal with shields and then deal with hull, there ist a captain and ship combination that does direct to hull damage better, and does enough to kill through shields completely.
snb can be cured a second later by ST too, you cant count on it to be a trump card. if enemies can close and surround the SNB'ed player, allies can too just as easily. no sci/sci has killed me on his own after he subnuked me, there isn't anything he can do that deals enough damage, regardless of how VM'ed or subsystem targeted i am.
A sci, using TR3 can rip off buffs, and score kills with a combo of chroniton TRIBBLE, TR3 procs, lolarons a Sub Nuc and Target Subs. A tac on the othe rhand will be dealing laughably bad damage while TR3 is up, that is more than easily mitigated by enemy healing.
A tac, using TR3 can rip off buffs just as easily as a sci can. and can score the kills nearly the same way a sci can, missing only snb and gaining tac buffed instead.
A tac on the other hand will be dealing crippling damage while TR3 is up, which is much harder to mitigated by enemy healing then shield damage because people have a lot more shield healing then hull healing, because you need 1 more then the other, unless a tac/sci is around.
Of course this all assumes you aren't facing pugs that are killable by Overload 1 carrying Shuttles as well.
But hey what do I know. It's not like I'm a high end pvper or anything. It's not like I spend 50 percent of the small time I do play anymore, in sci sci, or tac scis or anything.
your describing every one in this thread. being a high end pvp'er isnt special here. but the points i have made shouldn't have to be explained to a high end pvp'er.
the fundamental flaw in this thinking is that if you were flying a tac to control, you don't care about your damage. it doesn't mater if you deal as much damage as a sci at that point. the tac when ever he wishes can then swap to particles and go for damage, buffed tremendously by his tac skills. a sci cant ever do that.
do you not realize that to a properly set up tac/sci your target might as well not have shields equipped? that its direct to hull damage with tac buff FBP followed by TBR is enough to kill even a cruiser through its shields? i guess you never encountered one like that, i sure have. any other captain in any other ship will always have to deal with shields and then deal with hull, there ist a captain and ship combination that does direct to hull damage better, and does enough to kill through shields completely.
snb can be cured a second later by ST too, you cant count on it to be a trump card. if enemies can close and surround the SNB'ed player, allies can too just as easily. no sci/sci has killed me on his own after he subnuked me, there isn't anything he can do that deals enough damage, regardless of how VM'ed or subsystem targeted i am.
everyone knows that. i seriously hope no LTC stations and up are wasted on it in a tac/sci
A tac, using TR3 can rip off buffs just as easily as a sci can. and can score the kills nearly the same way a sci can, missing only snb and gaining tac buffed instead.
A tac on the other hand will be dealing crippling damage while TR3 is up, which is much harder to mitigated by enemy healing then shield damage because people have a lot more shield healing then hull healing, because you need 1 more then the other, unless a tac/sci is around.
your describing every one in this thread. being a high end pvp'er isnt special here. but the points i have made shouldn't have to be explained to a high end pvp'er.
A tac going full gravitons though is gibbing himself and his potential. yes Or No. It's not exactly Rocket Science here. Does Tac Damage Suffer Tremendously while using graviton consoles, yes or No? Does SNB work Better, when your target is isolated from his allies, yes or No?
If your enemy is dumb enough to continue shooting you with FBP up, he deserves what he gets. That's also an incredibly high slot wasted (ltcmdr for FBP2, or cmdr for FBP3), on a power that is at best passive aggressive. That works like 1 time, and then they quit shooting you. Suddenly you better change that boff ability out for something useful like a VM or second TBR. Or, they wait for you to do it again, and Sub Nuc it off.
SNB does not cure the fact that you suddenly lost every defensive buff running. Secondly, it's pretty unlikely that you'll have one thrown to you if you've been kicked 20km + away from your team mates.
No it can't. TR3s damage Sucks. TBR is the only way he's going to be doing damage, and if he pops TBR he pushes the target out of TR3 and completely mitigates the point of using the power in the first place. Leaving him with maybe what, BO1 and 2 if he's a Recon. Or BO2 and 3 (lol) if he's a Fleet Nova.
Apparently not, because people seem to have gotten Stupid all of the sudden and forget just how much dps you lose by going gravitons as a tac, how little tac buffs help VMs capability, and just how good SNB is against people that Don't Suck.
People also seem to have forgotten just how Flexible Sci Fleet makes your ability to heal yourself and others simultaneously, instead of having to always keep 1+ in the bag for yourself at all times.
Overload Deflector I: Increases flow capacitors, particle generators, graviton generators by 50 for 30 seconds (lt) (4 minute cool down)
Overload Deflector II: +150 (cmdr)
Overload Deflector III: +250 (RALH)
This would give sci's a damage boost ability that directly affects their most important skills, and it time-gates it so they can't just faceroll everyone.
Just an idea, add/remove affected systems and modify numbers to taste. I would prefer that OD III be strong enough to grab a typical escort running high ID, but whatever.
First: About SNB
SNB is a fickle skill. To take advantage of it, you need to be able to deliver spike DPS in the 2 seconds after it's applied. If the enemy manages to hit a new heal, or be healed by a teammate, or run away, it's a wasted, and your captain class is TRIBBLE not only for the last few minutes, but also for the coming few minutes.
Sure, SNB is great when it works, but it's sort of like the Tric mines... most of the time it doesn't. (Or at least works only in giving a slight advantage)
Second: About Sensor Scan
Sensor Scan has potential, but also a very high cost of running. First, you need lotsa points in a T4 skill, second, you need lotsa AUX power. It has a long CD, and it can be removed fairly easily with ST. Even when not removed, it'll only affect bleedthrough numbers, as seeing a ship loose shields is a rare occurance, that can usually be accomplished only by a tac with DHC-CRF.
Scatter field:
Usually good only for someone already heavily debuffed, as else it will only give a few lousy % resist on top of everyones already high resists, due to diminishing returns. Also, it's mostly theoretical. Without your shields, no hull resist can save you from DHC/Torp fire, and with shields, this resistance only affects your bleedthrough.
Sci Fleet:
I'll grant that this ability is good when up. Ofc it has apallingly long CD compared to duration.
Compared to these skills, a tac captain has 3 damage increasing buffs + tac initiative. Meaning he will have a damage buff ready very often. (4 buffs if fighting someone that doesn't chain TT)
Now I'm OK with Tacs doing more weapons damage in a sciship. (Ofc I could wish that the Sensor Analysis could really outweigh the lack of weapons, but that's beside the point) I'd say that the increased damage from weapons alone more than outweighs any advantage of being a sci captain in a sci ship. Now on top of that, he can also deal more damage with the science abilities. This is where the scale really tips IMO.
Most of us understand the tac captains tactical abilities, and appreciates that he knows where to make it hurt. He IS after all a specialist in this area. He has the ability to influence BOTH damage output AND improve the abilities, beacuse he knows the weakness of his enemy, and the strengths of his own. Now wtf did the sci captain learn at the academy? Was it years and years of perfecting SNB? Did he learn nothing about the other sciences?
IMO, to put the sci back in the sci, the captain abilities NEED to make a sci captain better at science. I say adding a flat +15-20ish bonus in all sci skills to SenScan and Scatterfield would go a way to do this.
First: About SNB
SNB is a fickle skill. To take advantage of it, you need to be able to deliver spike DPS in the 2 seconds after it's applied. If the enemy manages to hit a new heal, or be healed by a teammate, or run away, it's a wasted, and your captain class is TRIBBLE not only for the last few minutes, but also for the coming few minutes.
Sure, SNB is great when it works, but it's sort of like the Tric mines... most of the time it doesn't. (Or at least works only in giving a slight advantage)
Second: About Sensor Scan
Sensor Scan has potential, but also a very high cost of running. First, you need lotsa points in a T4 skill, second, you need lotsa AUX power. It has a long CD, and it can be removed fairly easily with ST. Even when not removed, it'll only affect bleedthrough numbers, as seeing a ship loose shields is a rare occurance, that can usually be accomplished only by a tac with DHC-CRF.
Scatter field:
Usually good only for someone already heavily debuffed, as else it will only give a few lousy % resist on top of everyones already high resists, due to diminishing returns. Also, it's mostly theoretical. Without your shields, no hull resist can save you from DHC/Torp fire, and with shields, this resistance only affects your bleedthrough.
Sci Fleet:
I'll grant that this ability is good when up. Ofc it has apallingly long CD compared to duration.
Compared to these skills, a tac captain has 3 damage increasing buffs + tac initiative. Meaning he will have a damage buff ready very often. (4 buffs if fighting someone that doesn't chain TT)
Now I'm OK with Tacs doing more weapons damage in a sciship. (Ofc I could wish that the Sensor Analysis could really outweigh the lack of weapons, but that's beside the point) I'd say that the increased damage from weapons alone more than outweighs any advantage of being a sci captain in a sci ship. Now on top of that, he can also deal more damage with the science abilities. This is where the scale really tips IMO.
Most of us understand the tac captains tactical abilities, and appreciates that he knows where to make it hurt. He IS after all a specialist in this area. He has the ability to influence BOTH damage output AND improve the abilities, beacuse he knows the weakness of his enemy, and the strengths of his own. Now wtf did the sci captain learn at the academy? Was it years and years of perfecting SNB? Did he learn nothing about the other sciences?
IMO, to put the sci back in the sci, the captain abilities NEED to make a sci captain better at science. I say adding a flat +15-20ish bonus in all sci skills to SenScan and Scatterfield would go a way to do this.
Keep the sci power bonus damage. Unless you want to give Sci ships DHC access with 3 to 4 tac consoles. Because otherwise the tac will go straight back to being Pointless in a sci ship just like it was from 2.5 on through Season 4.
Scattering field helps, when you are throwing hazards or extends around the most. It lets hazards basically heal more, and in ES's case mitigates bleedthrough.
SOMEONE in this thread other than than me finally suggested. Give sci direct synergy. Finally someone in this thread that's not me that is not loaded up on mysterious substances.
your describing every one in this thread. being a high end pvp'er isnt special here. but the points i have made shouldn't have to be explained to a high end pvp'er.
with few exceptions, I'd agree to this. The experience of the players in this thread doesn't warrant for anyone to claim to be "better". Sure, some have more experience at some builds, and preferences one way or another, and has felt the game changes more accutely than others.
Noone can claim "their build" is the best, and because of this dismiss any other combo that can be done better by another profession in the same setup. This is mainly because a sciships performance is extremely dependant on who you face and who you're teamed with. This is also why SNB is such a unreliable factor, because it validates but a few of the hundreds of possible sci builds. Fact is, in most sci-sci builds, and in most situations, it will not be decisive. Tac buffs on the other hand, will make a great difference on all but a sci builds.
On a very significant side note: It's strangely convenient that at a point of time where most people did agree that shield resists were through the roof, they broke the two drain abilities that could ignore resist, and validate running a high Aux sci ship...
A tac going full gravitons though is gibbing himself and his potential. yes Or No. It's not exactly Rocket Science here. Does Tac Damage Suffer Tremendously while using graviton consoles, yes or No?
yes. he is also performing at a sci captains potential :rolleyes: THAT'S THE POINT
Does SNB work Better, when your target is isolated from his allies, yes or No?
if all the SNB'ed person has to worry about is a sci ship with a sci captain, he will be fine. if enemies can close on a pushed out SNB'ed target, its allies can as well.
If your enemy is dumb enough to continue shooting you with FBP up, he deserves what he gets. That's also an incredibly high slot wasted (ltcmdr for FBP2, or cmdr for FBP3), on a power that is at best passive aggressive. That works like 1 time, and then they quit shooting you. Suddenly you better change that boff ability out for something useful like a VM or second TBR. Or, they wait for you to do it again, and Sub Nuc it off.
with 2 copies, or aux to bat with technicians a tac sci can make it so EVER shooting at him is a bad idea. the damage a tac buffed FBP can deal in the first second of someone's alpha strike to him is devastating. when the tac/sci sees the attacker stop shooting, then its aux to bat time and the attacker is finished off by TBR3.
SNB does not cure the fact that you suddenly lost every defensive buff running. Secondly, it's pretty unlikely that you'll have one thrown to you if you've been kicked 20km + away from your team mates.
if i truly had nothing to fall back on, or couldn't run, i was gonna die anyway. snb just made it happen a bit sooner. if thier was proper team healing at work it would be almost like the SNB wasn't used at all.
No it can't. TR3s damage Sucks. TBR is the only way he's going to be doing damage, and if he pops TBR he pushes the target out of TR3 and completely mitigates the point of using the power in the first place. Leaving him with maybe what, BO1 and 2 if he's a Recon. Or BO2 and 3 (lol) if he's a Fleet Nova.
3k to 4k damage a tic strait to hull is not what i would call sucky damage. your argument only works if this was true though, so i can see why you keep repeating it. again, shields are a non factor, and weapons that damage shields would not be particularly useful in this situation.
i never said that science captains couldnt use a buff.
but this is how i see it.
anything that is done to buff science captains doesnt change the fact that with the current skill tree layout, a tacitcal will still be better simply because this game is now only about who can dps the most. and a science cant dps.
im not complaining that he cant dps. hes not supposed to. but because a tactical can do all the crowd controling and that extra bit of dps he is the better choice if your team decides to take a science ship.
this entire thread is supposed to be about why a tactical captain is the better choice in a science ship then a science captain in a science ship.
my suggestion would only change the damage he does with the science powers. his weapons would still do more damage then a science captains could.
yes. he is also performing at a sci captains potential :rolleyes: THAT'S THE POINT
if all the SNB'ed person has to worry about is a sci ship with a sci captain, he will be fine. if enemies can close on a pushed out SNB'ed target, its allies can as well.
with 2 copies, or aux to bat with technicians a tac sci can make it so EVER shooting at him is a bad idea. the damage a tac buffed FBP can deal in the first second of someone's alpha strike to him is devastating. when the tac/sci sees the attacker stop shooting, then its aux to bat time and the attacker is finished off by TBR3.
i truly had nothing to fall back on, or couldn't run, i was gonna die anyway. snb just made it happen a bit sooner. if thier was proper team healing at work it would be almost like the SNB wasn't used at all.
3k to 4k damage a tic strait to hull is not what i would call sucky damage. your argument only works if this was true though, so i can see why you keep repeating it. again, shields are a non factor, and weapons that damage shields would not be particularly useful in this situation.
No he isn't and you know it. His dps will Suck. The target will still have a suite of defensive buffs running, even while isolated and it will be a great deal more likely that the target will live through your and your allies attacks long enough for the targets allies to come help. SNB Denies This Possibility.
Realistically it is less likely his allies will catch up before the TBR Makers will due to 2 others being pushed right away from combat as well. To say nothing of chronitons being left behind as the TBR team closes to further slow the advance.
Aux to battery kills your aux power. Remember? So now you are running 2 copies of FBP. You are having to cycle them, on a regular basis, and dramatically cutting into your already limited ability to contribute team healing. (Because Tss is that good) in the hopes that someone will shoot you.. when they have no reason to. Because the only skill you have otherwise to do dps with that's signficant is TBR. Yeah, that's a real hax build right there. Sure it will **** face in pugs. But so do Shuttles carrying Overload1.
Fully tac buffed up, even FB2 doesn't do nearly that much damage in that short of a time as you think it does. I've used it enough to know better and had it used on me enough. Furthermore BFI completely makes a joke out of TBRs damage. As does Polarize Hull.
Abit sooner, becomes Guaranteed with a full suite of talented players on your oppositions side. Stop Pugging.
TR3 does not do 3k dps. It does less than half of what GW3 does, and GW3 caps out at under 1500k dps. And that 1500 is assuming it is hitting straight hull and that the target is stationary. So again, good luck trying to kill someone without TBR there.
SOMEONE in this thread other than than me finally suggested. Give sci direct synergy. Finally someone in this thread that's not me that is not loaded up on mysterious substances.
thats been talked about a bit over here, for engies too.
they need a buff more then sci captains imo. tac captains do NOT need a nerf though. a tac captain making any damaging ability deal more damage is a good thing. hes tactical. he damages. be it warp plasma or FBP he should enhance damage. sci should enhance sci though, it currently doesn't
Comments
It seems like one person is too busy defending Tac abilities and viability in a sci ship (perhaps justifiaby so). Perhaps the only reason PSW3 got nerf ... er ... fixed was because of its abuse by Tac captains super buffing it. My Tac could easily crit for 60,000 damage in the fleet DSSV. My Sci captain is collecting dust. Science needs help. It is not fair to science captains that Tacs are so much more powerful in a science ship.
Who wants to see 5 Science captains in an STF??? (I know this is PvP forum) The point is well made (even if by TSI) that Science needs help, and it is insulting to Science that Tacs can do so much with a science vessel while Science captains can do nothing better than SNB.
Imo, PVE is by in large a damage race oustide of NSW. I'd rather have a debuffing Sci or 2 w/CC & a heal or 2 in a PuG group than a Eng who doesn't add much since a TAC would do better damage and a Sci would be better CC and also debuffs.
I do believe in general many more Sci abilities should be significantly more effective in PvE, and they should use resists to tone them down for PvP where they should be a viable playstyle option w/more options than is currently realistic. Also, Tac abilities shouldn't boost them only Skill Point investment and consoles/deflector slots should improve them.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
It doesn't help that weapon power fluctuates of course, can anyone think of a way around that? Maybe instead of basing it on the 125 part of 125/100 it could be scaled on the base power level.
I would also still like some sci and eng captain abilities to be looked at a bit more...
Are you here for real, or are you just trolling us along? I've skimmed the posts now, and so much of what you say makes no sense. Like:
What sci ability can a sci captain do better than a tac captain? (=none, while a tac captain can do almost all sci skills better than a sci. To a greater or smaller degree))
Why do you keep talking about Graviton consoles and TBR? If you push your targets out of range, it's a sure way to miss your kill. You want particle gens.
Yes, Tac captain give en enormous advantage to some sci skills, including TBR. On TBR3 you can get almost 3k damage per pulse with Tac buffs. A sci can only get half. Thats 30k damage vs 15k when used on someone running APO.
FBP will deal back 70% of incoming damage on a sci toon. A tac captain can deal back 150%!
Shockwave, also more than double figures.
Ok so GW and Tykens damage are so small thet even doubled they're a joke, but it's still better than nothing, right?
You talk about energy drains being deadly? First of all, to anyone with a few points in insulators they're a joke. (except the few that are broke with regards to resist. Like siphon drones) In addition, almost all builds carry at least two abilities to restore shields. Even on my Defiant I have EPtoS and RMC (sustitute shield battery if you don't have it).
I'm starting to get a feeling you don't know half of the abilities in the game, and still pretends to lecture the veterans of the game. The ones that know it so well that half the pug players will still zone out when facing them in an arena. Who are you anyway? Can't remember ever crossing phasers with you...
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
I have to ask the same questions about you. I mean seriously you people are either trolling, thinking that with a straight face a Graviton Tac will do anything in terms of effective dps, next to a sci's Sub Nuc, force multiplication abilities (or if the sci is double Vming)
Why? Because if you aren't a moron, you hit this magical button with your TBR called Evasive. Which keeps your target more or less in range, and pushes it farther away from team mates. Farther push however, = less DPS for a tac. Guess what class benefits from a higher push though. Sci. It kicks the target out farther, and makes that SNB all the more potent when it lands as the target is much less likely to receive friendly heals.
Tykens, is better for sci than it is tacs. Know why chump? Because it's DPS dealing capability is Jack and TRIBBLE. Even fully tac buffed with a 20 percent go down fighting bonus. Making it a better choice for a sci captain than a tac.
Shockwaves damage is pathetic, even with tac buffs now, especially for the lengthy cool down. It's only purpose in pvp now is to knock off extends. Meaning it's more useful as a Debuff than it is an attack.
TBR Damage only if you have particle gen consoles. However guess what chump, that's not the only use for TBR. There's this thing called Repel. And it gets ludicrously stronger the more graviton consoles you have. Those said consoles, eat away Tremendous amounts of dps for a tac. So a tac running with Gravitons is a ****ing Moron. Kind of like you butt hurt lil girls.
No it's not better when your DPS is not even enough to punch out native hull regen, and native HDR, it's Craptastic. A sub nuke in that situation? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> APA and if you are too stupid to see that maybe you should uninstall.
You see, it's called building to your strengths. A tac building for Debuffing, repels, or zone denial, is a Moron. Similarly a sci building for DPS is also you guessed it a Moron. A tac running heavy on debuffs, and repels, is every bit as fail tastic as a sci running for dps. And if you feel sci should do dps as well as a tac can, then YOU are the one with no conception of game balance and game mechanics.
Also champ, that tykens vid I linked earlier? the target had ranks in insulators. You get a TR3 and Doff proc and they will notice it. You get 2 TR3s and Doffs and they will be crippled. So go faceroll yourself.
I know more about the game than you ever will Dassem. As far as who the **** I am goes I'll give you a hint. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPYF2p-cGx8
And I bet my sci would roll yours, and make yours look sorry (and including Mai kai) in every match we que together with. Either allied or adversaried.
You idiots and I do mean that quite sincerely at this point, act like some how SNB doesn't synergize well with debuff strikes. What's next you gonna start claiming tacs are super healers compared to engineers, cause APA boosts turn rate and thus marginally boosts survivability while boosting their dps output?
I mean really, how about this, start asking for Scattering field to add bonuses to sci debuffs (ie Gravitons, Countermeasures, and Decompiler) instead of whining like pve heroes that "oh nooes tacs can do dps in a sci ship!" Your case would be much better, and much better grounded in Reality instead of your Vagisil needing rants.
Or how about this. You want tac buffs to only work on weapons, which WILL kick tac sci into Useless Failboat again status. To compensate, let all sci ships mount Dual Heavy Cannons and give + 1 tac consoles across the board. Because without tac buffed sci skills, tac dps in a sci ship is a complete farce. And that is quite literally the only thing tacs are good for.
SNB, and heal. Because Sci Fleet is well above and beyond the call of duty for keeping your ship together while You can give heals. Oh and it gives all your team mates the same massive SDR bonus.
Also, frankly I couldn't care less about pve. PvE is Faceroll stuff anyway.
Also further, the problem isn't tac captains. It's the state of the Stupid TRIBBLE Skill Tree that allows you to have 50 +percent resistances, passively to debuffs when specced up, especially when coupled with the massive OverHealing this game has.
so your main argument is that a tac captain is only improving the abilities a bit, and that is for some reason worse than not improving them all? Being a little bit better is worse than being a little bit worse?
(PS: that vagisil comment is a dead giveaway. C'mon, you can do better than this. BTW: As I have barely touched my sci toon, or a sci ship, since the skill revamp, I have no doubt you would beat me in a sciship. I stopped doing sci/sci when I found other combinations were stronger after the revamp)
I agree with you in how you would change sci.
It's at Effective 0. Now compare that to removing someone's 75 percent SDR, 60 percent HDR, along with the HOTs that will definitely be on the target at the time, lengthening firing cycles, and cool downs on all abilities with the press of a button. While applying the same boff skill. SNB wins that hands down.
TRIBBLE bonus dps, vs Removal of heals. Seriously man, TR3, (even GW3 the other supposed big bad of tac scipeen#s) does lower dps than a Non High Yielded Torpedo does. GW3, fully auxed up, particle genned, and tac buffed, does less than a Transphasic Torp Spread 2 with buffs. To say nothing of possible constant pelting with a torp after that. Your Tack Buffed Turrets, will do more dps than a GW3 (no, seriously they do.)
PSW3 is on par with a nekkid tac buffed quantum in damage output. To say nothing of the laughably bad PSW1.
SNB is a much stronger ability than APA and GDF are, when low dps skills come into play. I'd argue that it's almost stronger period anyway given that you can dump 4 to 5 alphas into a target that's being cross healed, and without an SNB you won't down the target at all.
TBR is presently the only decent DPS sci skill left in the game, (FBP is too situation dependent) and even it's crank power isn't nearly what it was a while ago. Gone are the Crit Chains against multiple targets, it's crit chance is also lower than it was previously, per pulse. Tac Sci are on their way down the Flusher. Every bit as fast as Sci Sci is.
Maybe you pug too much. (and Maikai plays with his guildies and friends, so he's at minimum pugmading all the time. Which you are going to Face **** pugs anyway, SNB or not) Pugs don't heal, pugs don't use Resists correctly. So SNBs power is largely drained away, in those kind of situations.
Sci Powers, outside of Tractor 1, VM, TBR, and Doffed Up Spammed TR3s are offensively pathetic. Not a single one of them work properly anymore. It's not Tacs fault that this happened either. We can blame this squarely on Gecko not liking sci powers because "zomg not like trek at all!" while he puts more Dumb TRIBBLE Carriers into the game which NEVER appeared in trek.
Coincidentally, Tractor 1, VM, and TBR can also be fielded equally strong as a tac can field it. (maybe abit stronger since TBR changed abit) providing they don't try to use the last one as a dps skill but as a repulsion effect.
Hi Mai Kai!
I have a similar question, but it's also slightly different.
I've also wondered as well why the Science captain can't really enhance their powers in any particular fashion better than a Tac.
I'm sort of neutral in the Tac buffing or not being able to buff Sci power damage.
On the one hand that's what Tacs do, damage. On the other hand, the way the game is designed the Sci captain does nothing to Sci powers at all - damage or otherwise, and that certainly doesn't make much sense either.
While you've specifically said this thread is not about what Sci captains can or can't do, if you ever get an idea to create a thread of what they should be able to do to enhance their ships - that's one I'd be very interested in (and I think we can all just hope maybe Bort sees it and finds something to take away from it).
Let's say Tacs do continue to buff the damage of Sci powers, I would really love for a Sci captain to be able to add Debuffs/Crowd Control to any ship they Captain. (Technically they do with Subnuc and Sensor Scan, but it's not on the level of a tac being able to completely buff the damage of anything and everything or an Eng being able to make anything more survivable).
I would like for them to be able to directly enhance the weapons to match the way Tacs can buff Sci damage powers. (caveat, this could also be some scary territory).
Imagine an APA equivalent, but instead of criticals and damage - weapons & powers have slows, drains or similar added to their base effects - could be exciting, could also be terrifyingly overpowered but it's a fun idea.
I don't technically disagree, but they are better at killing with science.
I'd like to see Sci captains actually make Sci powers better at doing many of the other things Sci powers are (or should be, rather) designed to do.
That being said, I'm not sure how to accomplish that without re-writing the entire set of sci captain abilities.
Yes, this is a major system wide issue. It's pretty atrocious.
I just want to re-iterate that I am on the fence about this issue - I do think that the above statement also holds true for an Engineer.
An engineer can also go fly whatever they want and make it amazingly more survivable.
The problem, I think, is that a Sci captain does not get the same mileage nor lend enough to make their ship do any one thing really well.
You can't say the same thing about a Sci captain that you can about Tacs and Engineers, and that's a shame.
This is the disjointed part in my opinion.
I think Sci captains as they are designed lack focus. They have no real crowd control to speak of and no way to really add it to ships in a major fashion.
They have some Debuffing and some buffs, and photonic fleet.
And while powers like Subnuc and Sensor Scan are good the design of the class is all over the place - unlike Tacs that have a number of ways to simply make things die and Engineers that have a number of ways to increase their survivability.
I really think the design of Sci captains is the culprit here, and I'd be very interested in your opinion.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
1) Sci ships are imbalanced any player class does better in cruisers or escorts depending on their preference.
I had once suggested that sci ships should get passive boosts (much like Sensor Analysis) that has one effect on their own ship, and another applied to their team. With a limit to them stacking. Making sci ships more effective at solo PvE and at high level PvP. Each ship could have a unique flavor to this boost making for moare chocies which is always good.
2) Player class balance embodied in their cpt skills has come somewhat out of whack. The amount of external healing to keep a tac/scort alive has dropped radically, by introducing the jem bug/stacking shield distro doffs/the skill tree revamp/the low oportunity cost of the assimlated borg set pieces and maybe even more factors.
Furthermore, the nadion cpt skill for engs has lost much of its potential with the weapons energy consumption revamp. Taken together it makes Engs somewhat pointless beyond bringing one healer eng in a team (space that is, the new OS and explosives have somewhat made the class viable for ground pve again).
While i think that SNB is great the way it is (much more powerful then APA) in pvp it is kind of meh in PvE. Be that as it may, it would be great to get more synergy between Sci/sci combo. It is indeed a bit weird that Tac boost sci skills better then Sci. I'm fine with high crit PSW3 being reserved for tacs, but a similar increase in the stun would be a nice thing. basically make cc and debuff more effective and make that part of the sci profession. Sci fleet has never made much sense to me, even after the nerf.
Tac opportunity cost seems just to low. There are no more glass cannons, PvE is a DPS race so there really isn't much reason to fly anything but tac.
3) the sci part of the skill tree revamp has kicked sci (class and ship) in the nuts hard. A nerf was in order but it went to far. Start by fixing this, then rebalance player skills and then lets take a look at BOs/ship class balance.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
i dont think anyone here agrees with ghostyandfrosty. theres no reason a tac/sci couldn't load up on graviton gens and switch to more controlling tactics then pure damage dealing tactics. they can do both, wile sci can just control. the sci can also not make full use of snb's power by itself, it needs a heavy hitter around to do that for him. the tac sci doesn't need any help, it can be a heavy hitter all by itself, bypassing shields almost completely and being able to kill with half the effort it takes to kill someone any other way. thats not to say it isn't extreamly tricky to do correctly.
Sure there is. Your DPS will be TRIBBLE if you load up on gravitons instead of particle gens. How about you go try it yourself. Have fun with your 3k crits, that are easily repaired and mitigated.
Your best Asset, which is Damage becomes non existent when you do that. Turrets will deal more effective DPS than you will with gravitons.
Sci on the other hand? Their best asset remains. It actually makes more sense to do it as a sci, and likely you'll have more kills at the end of a match doing that, than a tac will.
"Raw dmg tac will be better though zomg zomtg!" Yeah. And that damage is FAR more easily taken care of than the sub nuc that the sci will be giving once he gets the target far away from his allies. And then after that the sci will actually do -more- damage out put than the tac will. Why? Because Buffs matter.
Tac sci, 9/10 times will not deal nearly as much death as a Tac escort. In that 1/10 circumstances, the enemy has been heavily debuffed, and mauled by almost everyone on the team.
And that's in the Best Case of having multiple TBRs to work with. Because Grav Well, regardless of console type isn't going to do Jack.
A sci, using TR3 can rip off buffs, and score kills with a combo of chroniton TRIBBLE, TR3 procs, lolarons a Sub Nuc and Target Subs. A tac on the othe rhand will be dealing laughably bad damage while TR3 is up, that is more than easily mitigated by enemy healing.
Of course this all assumes you aren't facing pugs that are killable by Overload 1 carrying Shuttles as well.
But hey what do I know. It's not like I'm a high end pvper or anything. It's not like I spend 50 percent of the small time I do play anymore, in sci sci, or tac scis or anything.
Hopefully you'll see the issue isn't with tactical class, it is with science class, which DO have very annoying and effective skills. Not saying there isn't room for improvement, but please don't do an insane buff...
Where is our escort/sci ships?
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
For Tacticals, Attack Pattern Alpha, and Go down Fighting, would be changed to only work on Weapons.
Tactical Officers would then have an Innate Space Trait, Any Power that deals damage would get a X% Damage boost, starting at 1% at Lt 1 and raising to 5% At VA/LG 50. (Example of Powers effected: Gravity Well, Eject Warp Plasma, etc..)
Science Officers would have an Innate Space Trait that would increase the Durations of any Targeted/AOE based effects by 1% Starting at Lt 1 raising to 5% at VA/LG 50, and increase shield resists by .5% at LT1 to 2.5% at VA/LG 50. (Example of powers effected: Viral Matrix, Photonic Shockwave's Stun, etc..)
Engineering Officers would have an Innate Space Trait that would Increase the durations of any Personal/Self Powers by 1% Starting at Lt 1 raising to 5% at VA/LG 50, and increase Hull resists by .5% at LT1 to 2.5% at VA/LG 50. (Example of powers effected: Emergency Power to X, Polarized hull etc..)
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
the fundamental flaw in this thinking is that if you were flying a tac to control, you don't care about your damage. it doesn't mater if you deal as much damage as a sci at that point. the tac when ever he wishes can then swap to particles and go for damage, buffed tremendously by his tac skills. a sci cant ever do that.
do you not realize that to a properly set up tac/sci your target might as well not have shields equipped? that its direct to hull damage with tac buff FBP followed by TBR is enough to kill even a cruiser through its shields? i guess you never encountered one like that, i sure have. any other captain in any other ship will always have to deal with shields and then deal with hull, there ist a captain and ship combination that does direct to hull damage better, and does enough to kill through shields completely.
snb can be cured a second later by ST too, you cant count on it to be a trump card. if enemies can close and surround the SNB'ed player, allies can too just as easily. no sci/sci has killed me on his own after he subnuked me, there isn't anything he can do that deals enough damage, regardless of how VM'ed or subsystem targeted i am.
everyone knows that. i seriously hope no LTC stations and up are wasted on it in a tac/sci
A tac, using TR3 can rip off buffs just as easily as a sci can. and can score the kills nearly the same way a sci can, missing only snb and gaining tac buffed instead.
A tac on the other hand will be dealing crippling damage while TR3 is up, which is much harder to mitigated by enemy healing then shield damage because people have a lot more shield healing then hull healing, because you need 1 more then the other, unless a tac/sci is around.
your describing every one in this thread. being a high end pvp'er isnt special here. but the points i have made shouldn't have to be explained to a high end pvp'er.
Uhm it reduces the dmg to shields of your entire team by 33% for 30sec. That sounds rather useful or am I missing something?
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
A tac going full gravitons though is gibbing himself and his potential. yes Or No. It's not exactly Rocket Science here. Does Tac Damage Suffer Tremendously while using graviton consoles, yes or No? Does SNB work Better, when your target is isolated from his allies, yes or No?
If your enemy is dumb enough to continue shooting you with FBP up, he deserves what he gets. That's also an incredibly high slot wasted (ltcmdr for FBP2, or cmdr for FBP3), on a power that is at best passive aggressive. That works like 1 time, and then they quit shooting you. Suddenly you better change that boff ability out for something useful like a VM or second TBR. Or, they wait for you to do it again, and Sub Nuc it off.
SNB does not cure the fact that you suddenly lost every defensive buff running. Secondly, it's pretty unlikely that you'll have one thrown to you if you've been kicked 20km + away from your team mates.
No it can't. TR3s damage Sucks. TBR is the only way he's going to be doing damage, and if he pops TBR he pushes the target out of TR3 and completely mitigates the point of using the power in the first place. Leaving him with maybe what, BO1 and 2 if he's a Recon. Or BO2 and 3 (lol) if he's a Fleet Nova.
Apparently not, because people seem to have gotten Stupid all of the sudden and forget just how much dps you lose by going gravitons as a tac, how little tac buffs help VMs capability, and just how good SNB is against people that Don't Suck.
People also seem to have forgotten just how Flexible Sci Fleet makes your ability to heal yourself and others simultaneously, instead of having to always keep 1+ in the bag for yourself at all times.
Overload Deflector I: Increases flow capacitors, particle generators, graviton generators by 50 for 30 seconds (lt) (4 minute cool down)
Overload Deflector II: +150 (cmdr)
Overload Deflector III: +250 (RALH)
This would give sci's a damage boost ability that directly affects their most important skills, and it time-gates it so they can't just faceroll everyone.
Just an idea, add/remove affected systems and modify numbers to taste. I would prefer that OD III be strong enough to grab a typical escort running high ID, but whatever.
Some thoughts...
First: About SNB
SNB is a fickle skill. To take advantage of it, you need to be able to deliver spike DPS in the 2 seconds after it's applied. If the enemy manages to hit a new heal, or be healed by a teammate, or run away, it's a wasted, and your captain class is TRIBBLE not only for the last few minutes, but also for the coming few minutes.
Sure, SNB is great when it works, but it's sort of like the Tric mines... most of the time it doesn't. (Or at least works only in giving a slight advantage)
Second: About Sensor Scan
Sensor Scan has potential, but also a very high cost of running. First, you need lotsa points in a T4 skill, second, you need lotsa AUX power. It has a long CD, and it can be removed fairly easily with ST. Even when not removed, it'll only affect bleedthrough numbers, as seeing a ship loose shields is a rare occurance, that can usually be accomplished only by a tac with DHC-CRF.
Scatter field:
Usually good only for someone already heavily debuffed, as else it will only give a few lousy % resist on top of everyones already high resists, due to diminishing returns. Also, it's mostly theoretical. Without your shields, no hull resist can save you from DHC/Torp fire, and with shields, this resistance only affects your bleedthrough.
Sci Fleet:
I'll grant that this ability is good when up. Ofc it has apallingly long CD compared to duration.
Compared to these skills, a tac captain has 3 damage increasing buffs + tac initiative. Meaning he will have a damage buff ready very often. (4 buffs if fighting someone that doesn't chain TT)
Now I'm OK with Tacs doing more weapons damage in a sciship. (Ofc I could wish that the Sensor Analysis could really outweigh the lack of weapons, but that's beside the point) I'd say that the increased damage from weapons alone more than outweighs any advantage of being a sci captain in a sci ship. Now on top of that, he can also deal more damage with the science abilities. This is where the scale really tips IMO.
Most of us understand the tac captains tactical abilities, and appreciates that he knows where to make it hurt. He IS after all a specialist in this area. He has the ability to influence BOTH damage output AND improve the abilities, beacuse he knows the weakness of his enemy, and the strengths of his own. Now wtf did the sci captain learn at the academy? Was it years and years of perfecting SNB? Did he learn nothing about the other sciences?
IMO, to put the sci back in the sci, the captain abilities NEED to make a sci captain better at science. I say adding a flat +15-20ish bonus in all sci skills to SenScan and Scatterfield would go a way to do this.
yes/no?
R.I.P
Keep the sci power bonus damage. Unless you want to give Sci ships DHC access with 3 to 4 tac consoles. Because otherwise the tac will go straight back to being Pointless in a sci ship just like it was from 2.5 on through Season 4.
Scattering field helps, when you are throwing hazards or extends around the most. It lets hazards basically heal more, and in ES's case mitigates bleedthrough.
SOMEONE in this thread other than than me finally suggested. Give sci direct synergy. Finally someone in this thread that's not me that is not loaded up on mysterious substances.
with few exceptions, I'd agree to this. The experience of the players in this thread doesn't warrant for anyone to claim to be "better". Sure, some have more experience at some builds, and preferences one way or another, and has felt the game changes more accutely than others.
Noone can claim "their build" is the best, and because of this dismiss any other combo that can be done better by another profession in the same setup. This is mainly because a sciships performance is extremely dependant on who you face and who you're teamed with. This is also why SNB is such a unreliable factor, because it validates but a few of the hundreds of possible sci builds. Fact is, in most sci-sci builds, and in most situations, it will not be decisive. Tac buffs on the other hand, will make a great difference on all but a sci builds.
On a very significant side note: It's strangely convenient that at a point of time where most people did agree that shield resists were through the roof, they broke the two drain abilities that could ignore resist, and validate running a high Aux sci ship...
yes. he is also performing at a sci captains potential :rolleyes: THAT'S THE POINT
if all the SNB'ed person has to worry about is a sci ship with a sci captain, he will be fine. if enemies can close on a pushed out SNB'ed target, its allies can as well.
with 2 copies, or aux to bat with technicians a tac sci can make it so EVER shooting at him is a bad idea. the damage a tac buffed FBP can deal in the first second of someone's alpha strike to him is devastating. when the tac/sci sees the attacker stop shooting, then its aux to bat time and the attacker is finished off by TBR3.
if i truly had nothing to fall back on, or couldn't run, i was gonna die anyway. snb just made it happen a bit sooner. if thier was proper team healing at work it would be almost like the SNB wasn't used at all.
3k to 4k damage a tic strait to hull is not what i would call sucky damage. your argument only works if this was true though, so i can see why you keep repeating it. again, shields are a non factor, and weapons that damage shields would not be particularly useful in this situation.
but this is how i see it.
anything that is done to buff science captains doesnt change the fact that with the current skill tree layout, a tacitcal will still be better simply because this game is now only about who can dps the most. and a science cant dps.
im not complaining that he cant dps. hes not supposed to. but because a tactical can do all the crowd controling and that extra bit of dps he is the better choice if your team decides to take a science ship.
this entire thread is supposed to be about why a tactical captain is the better choice in a science ship then a science captain in a science ship.
my suggestion would only change the damage he does with the science powers. his weapons would still do more damage then a science captains could.
No he isn't and you know it. His dps will Suck. The target will still have a suite of defensive buffs running, even while isolated and it will be a great deal more likely that the target will live through your and your allies attacks long enough for the targets allies to come help. SNB Denies This Possibility.
Realistically it is less likely his allies will catch up before the TBR Makers will due to 2 others being pushed right away from combat as well. To say nothing of chronitons being left behind as the TBR team closes to further slow the advance.
Aux to battery kills your aux power. Remember? So now you are running 2 copies of FBP. You are having to cycle them, on a regular basis, and dramatically cutting into your already limited ability to contribute team healing. (Because Tss is that good) in the hopes that someone will shoot you.. when they have no reason to. Because the only skill you have otherwise to do dps with that's signficant is TBR. Yeah, that's a real hax build right there. Sure it will **** face in pugs. But so do Shuttles carrying Overload1.
Fully tac buffed up, even FB2 doesn't do nearly that much damage in that short of a time as you think it does. I've used it enough to know better and had it used on me enough. Furthermore BFI completely makes a joke out of TBRs damage. As does Polarize Hull.
Abit sooner, becomes Guaranteed with a full suite of talented players on your oppositions side. Stop Pugging.
TR3 does not do 3k dps. It does less than half of what GW3 does, and GW3 caps out at under 1500k dps. And that 1500 is assuming it is hitting straight hull and that the target is stationary. So again, good luck trying to kill someone without TBR there.
yep. aux to bat then TBR is killer for damage dealing. its a great off switch to the high aux your running when its tac buffed TBR3 time.
thats been talked about a bit over here, for engies too.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=354801&page=26
they need a buff more then sci captains imo. tac captains do NOT need a nerf though. a tac captain making any damaging ability deal more damage is a good thing. hes tactical. he damages. be it warp plasma or FBP he should enhance damage. sci should enhance sci though, it currently doesn't