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Shield Adaptive Frequency Generator (Valdore's console) feedback

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    naeviusnaevius Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    If there's a problem with the fundamental mechanic of "Take the damage I just did and multiply it by N, then heal me", it won't matter what I change N to or what value I cap that formula at - it won't be doing what we want it to do.

    I wonder if it is counting its own healing as additional 'damage', leading to more healing...
    _________________________________________________
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    saxfiresaxfire Member Posts: 558 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Currently the console heals for 20% of all damage you deal with all shots, that's 5% dmg done to each shield facing, I would reduce that by 200%, so the proc only gives 50% shields, or with internal cooldown of 10 seconds.
    Say the word, it saves the world.
    CUUCUUMBEER! "-With slight partigen with it."
    Proud member or DPS-800 "-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
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    vinsinarvinsinar Member Posts: 55 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    adrianm63 wrote: »
    he just offered to turn that console into a shield regen console you can buy from fleet emabssy or exchange if you want a crappier version....congrats ,you know how the game works :D

    Like I said earlier nerf cannons problem solved. Nerfing cannons would also fix a few other balance issues as well.
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    edna#7310 edna Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    vinsinar wrote: »
    Like I said earlier nerf cannons problem solved. Nerfing cannons would also fix a few other balance issues as well.

    or remove the stupid faction aka romulans. that would also fix not few ,but all ballance issues in game after LoR.
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    vinsinarvinsinar Member Posts: 55 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    adrianm63 wrote: »
    or remove the stupid faction aka romulans. that would also fix not few ,but all ballance issues in game after LoR.

    lol last I checked the Romulans aren't a faction just a glorified add on race to the Feds or KDF.

    Maybe they should spend the next year fixing all the KDF bugs and adding some really awesome OP KDF ships and costumes, new content to balance out faction population.
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    kapla1755kapla1755 Member Posts: 1,249
    edited June 2013
    vinsinar wrote: »
    Like I said earlier nerf cannons problem solved. Nerfing cannons would also fix a few other balance issues as well.

    The problem is not cannons per se, see post #136 where I tested with an Engineer running only 4 common beam arrays in a D'Drex in a PVE setting and still managed 1.2mil in healing.
    adrianm63 wrote: »
    or remove the stupid faction aka romulans. that would also fix not few ,but all ballance issues in game after LoR.

    Really thats not gonna happen, so smile and play-on. ;)


    Personally I love the console, but I understand how it would be a problem in CE where healing is a factor for 1st place. They really need more information, because when a 4 beam D'Drex can put out 3.9mil in dmg but the console heal numbers show I healed my shields for 1.2mil something is interacting with it in an odd manner. thats roughly a quarter of total damage output. :confused:

    BTW is there a way to post the entire combat log?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    vinsinarvinsinar Member Posts: 55 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    kapla1755 wrote: »
    The problem is not cannons per se, see post #136 where I tested with an Engineer running only 4 common beam arrays in a D'Drex in a PVE setting and still managed 1.2mil in healing.

    Understood have believed all along this shouldn't be a nerf but a fix as it works most of the time but has some spikes that don't add up.

    I still think cannon DPS is unbalanced and should be fixed as its been an issue a lot longer than the some of these other problems.
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    edna#7310 edna Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    vinsinar wrote: »
    Maybe they should spend the next year fixing all the KDF bugs and adding some really awesome OP KDF ships and costumes, new content to balance out faction population.


    and what have kdf and other races/factions dont have?

    if you want godmode on go play start trek singleplayer offline.Last time I checked this was a mmo .
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    kapla1755kapla1755 Member Posts: 1,249
    edited June 2013
    vinsinar wrote: »
    Understood have believed all along this shouldn't be a nerf but a fix as it works most of the time but has some spikes that don't add up.

    I still think cannon DPS is unbalanced and should be fixed as its been an issue a lot longer than the some of these other problems.

    not sure if DHC are so much of an issue more like beam arrays ability to keep the power levels up or have the option to get a heavy beam array to feel more competitive (HB array 300base dmg vs 200 base dmg on Mk XI beams for example). add some additional wide-angle type torpedoes/missiles ( ferengi missiles need a dmg buff please ) to available items for sale. or they could buff single cannon damge for that other Trek running in cannons blazing sorta feel :D.

    but back to topic is there a way to post the complete combat log without resorting to tons of screenshots?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    vinsinarvinsinar Member Posts: 55 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    adrianm63 wrote: »
    and what have kdf and other races/factions dont have?

    if you want godmode on go play start trek singleplayer offline.Last time I checked this was a mmo .

    Your missing my point (maybe I'm being to sutle) there is only 1 faction in STO and until they fix that most other things are pointless. The only way to address it is give the KDF some serious attention for the next year or so with cool new ships, content etc and ignore the Fed side for a while.
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    tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    vinsinar wrote: »
    Your missing my point (maybe I'm being to sutle) there is only 1 faction in STO and until they fix that most other things are pointless. The only way to address it is give the KDF some serious attention for the next year or so with cool new ships, content etc and ignore the Fed side for a while.

    Why would they do that? The Fedside was already ignored and the KDF was made a total and whole faction already, but then its the Romulans who should get stuff now.
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
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    dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    aexrael wrote: »
    I still don't care for your snapshots. Put up the entire log and I'll run it through the parser. I already stated I have, albeit a limited data set, to the contrary that it procs more often then the indicated 2.5% over an entire encounter.

    tpalelena wrote: »
    He is just posting the same lucky log all over again, Most likely an alpha strike with all boost he could get, and a lucky console heal series.

    I would not put much stock in his data based on a 3rd party program he can edit at will anyway.

    An internal cooldown is a bad idea if it always procs on the useless turret heals.

    It most likely needs a lower healing that activates on all hits, like Plasmonic leech.

    Turning it into an active console makes it useless at Estf, like all active consoles. That's propably the worst thing that could be done to it.


    who cares if it still came out to 2.5% of shots, thats obviously to much. the first 3 screenshots are the bottom 3 pages viewable, not cheery picked at all. the other 2 were picked totally at random. instead of refusing to believe your lieing eyes, but together an escort with 2 copies of CRF and log what happens. you will get the same rate of proc as me. you dont even have to log it to see it in action. you see 4 large heal numbers pop up wile you shoot, watch as the proc goes off in real time.

    i can edit it? really? how totally unnecessary. i wouldn't even know how to edit it even. have you ever looked at a raw log? theres no way in hell i could edit that manually.

    what adorable denial you all have
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    tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    who cares if it still came out to 2.5% of shots, thats obviously to much. the first 3 screenshots are the bottom 3 pages viewable, not cheery picked at all. the other 2 were picked totally at random. instead of refusing to believe your lieing eyes, but together an escort with 2 copies of CRF and log what happens. you will get the same rate of proc as me. you dont even have to log it to see it in action. you see 4 large heal numbers pop up wile you shoot, watch as the proc goes off in real time.

    i can edit it? really? how totally unnecessary. i wouldn't even know how to edit it even. have you ever looked at a raw log? theres no way in hell i could edit that manually.

    what adorable denial you all have

    First, I dont use 3rd party software for STO, its against the rules I think.

    Second, yes, I had such an event once....when I was shooting a transformer with already full shields!

    The proc did not trigger at all when I was shooting the tactical cube.
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
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    dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    in my log file from this last week i have 30878 energy weapon hits on a target. in that same period i have 1596 procs. im not real good at math, but 2.5 % of 30878 should be ~772 right? im getting about a 5% proc rate i figure. im not doing any sort of pvp'er hax ether, its just 3 DHCs, and 3 turrets, with a torp, and CRF at its system cooldown. normal escort behavior.

    heres the over view

    https://i.minus.com/ioIn0XC03gk7z.JPG

    and another look at the log

    https://i.minus.com/ir84Kx0foHL6Y.JPG

    please tell me how act is making this look worse then it is. all its doing is showing exactly what happens.

    tpalelena wrote: »
    First, I dont use 3rd party software for STO, its against the rules I think.

    Second, yes, I had such an event once....when I was shooting a transformer with already full shields!

    The proc did not trigger at all when I was shooting the tactical cube.

    3rd party software? what, act? its easy not to notice the proc going off sometimes when lots of numbers are flying around your ship. unless you can time stamp the cube fight with a log entry you cant really say there was no procs
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    tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    It did go off on a useless turret, but did no major heal.

    Also, its still those few seconds of successive procs you bring up.

    Maybe through the whole log it did not proc like that all the time.
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
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    dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    tpalelena wrote: »
    It did go off on a useless turret, but did no major heal.

    Also, its still those few seconds of successive procs you bring up.

    Maybe through the whole log it did not proc like that all the time.

    the whole log looks like this. this is not anomaly. there have been 6 screenshots of it showing this to be the case
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    lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited June 2013
    in my log file from this last week i have 30878 energy weapon hits on a target. in that same period i have 1596 procs. im not real good at math, but 2.5 % of 30878 should be ~772 right? im getting about a 5% proc rate i figure. im not doing any sort of pvp'er hax ether, its just 3 DHCs, and 3 turrets, with a torp, and CRF at its system cooldown. normal escort behavior.

    heres the over view

    https://i.minus.com/ioIn0XC03gk7z.JPG

    and another look at the log

    https://i.minus.com/ir84Kx0foHL6Y.JPG

    please tell me how act is making this look worse then it is. all its doing is showing exactly what happens.




    3rd party software? what, act? its easy not to notice the proc going off sometimes when lots of numbers are flying around your ship. unless you can time stamp the cube fight with a log entry you cant really say there was no procs

    Like I said before, not too much of a help if you are firing 6 diff cannons using CRF. If you want to help pin down the problem, try one cannon type at a time with and without CRF.

    By the way, your idea of normal escort behavior is based on players that know DHC are best for DPS. Heck CSV is more common in PvEs.
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    tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    the whole log looks like this. this is not anomaly. there have been 6 screenshots of it showing this to be the case

    Hm.... You must have gotten lucky, it does not work that well for me.


    How does the game calculate procs?
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
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    scrimpinionscrimpinion Member Posts: 76 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    tpalelena wrote: »
    Hm.... You must have gotten lucky, it does not work that well for me.

    There is no possible way you could ever know that, because you don't parse your combat logs, you just got done saying so.

    assuring everybody it's not bad because it doesn't "feel" that way to you when you're playing.

    Vs.

    A combat log that contains all events over a given period sorted by what the event is and the precise numbers relating to them as recorded by the game client.


    ...Yeah.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    lucho80 wrote: »
    Like I said before, not too much of a help if you are firing 6 diff cannons using CRF. If you want to help pin down the problem, try one cannon type at a time with and without CRF.

    By the way, your idea of normal escort behavior is based on players that know DHC are best for DPS. Heck CSV is more common in PvEs.

    using 1 cannon isn't normal, and is not helpful information for balancing this console in practice. if players were useing DCs they would get even more procs then im getting, they fire more individual shots. and if they were useing CSV, they would be hitting vastly more targets then me. the procing would be more out of control, my logs are tame compared to what that might cause.

    my ship is displayed in the gateway link in my sig, thats what made these logs
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    lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited June 2013
    using 1 cannon isn't normal, and is not helpful information for balancing this console in practice. if players were useing DCs they would get even more procs then im getting, they fire more individual shots. and if they were useing CSV, they would be hitting vastly more targets then me. the procing would be more out of control, my logs are tame compared to what that might cause.

    You fail to grasp the finer details of debugging code. Yes, it's not normal to run 1 weapon, but running 6 different ones at the same time is little to no help pinning down the problem.
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    scrimpinionscrimpinion Member Posts: 76 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    lucho80 wrote: »
    You fail to grasp the finer details of debugging code. Yes, it's not normal to run 1 weapon, but running 6 different ones at the same time is little to no help pinning down the problem.

    1) I don't believe that you can say whether or not multiple cannons helps or hinders pinning down this problem, cuz you're not a Cryptic dev

    2) It isn't Dontdrunk's or your job to debug code, cuz you're not a Cryptic dev

    3) you're not a Cryptic dev
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited June 2013
    1) I don't believe that you can say whether or not multiple cannons helps or hinders pinning down this problem, cuz you're not a Cryptic dev

    2) It isn't Dontdrunk's or your job to debug code, cuz you're not a Cryptic dev

    3) you're not a Cryptic dev

    No but I'm a computer engineer with a pretty good grasp on how there are many pieces of code behind the scene that must be interacting to cause this problem which is why the dev is asking for help. Some bugs are easy to spot and some are a pain. Frankly, if he's asking for help, this is one of the annoying ones.

    On #2 and #3 you're basically saying to the dev, no thanks, you screwed up, you deal with it.
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    tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    They will need to run tests with all the cannons, cannon and attack patter abilities, and so on.... and then do it with the beams, with all the energy types and such.

    A lot of work.
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
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    scrimpinionscrimpinion Member Posts: 76 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    lucho80 wrote: »
    No but I'm a computer engineer with a pretty good grasp on how there are many pieces of code behind the scene that must be interacting to cause this problem which is why the dev is asking for help. Some bugs are easy to spot and some are a pain. Frankly, if he's asking for help, this is one of the annoying ones.

    Many pieces of interacting code, but evidently none of them involve more than a single weapon shooting at a time or power use, because you're asking dontdrunk to only use one cannon and no buffs.

    also? he didn't ask for help.
    Hi all,

    We're evaluating situations in which the Shield Adaptive Frequency Generator console's effectiveness may be too high. We're still gathering data on its effectiveness, and how much of its healing is overhealing vs. effective healing, so I don't have any concrete plans to share with you since our plan of action will depend on the extent to which it performs in our testing. However, we just wanted to let you know that we are looking at the console and may try to make it less "swingy" if necessary - boosting the theoretical minimum performance and reining in the theoretical maximum performance - if the data supports making that change.

    that's not why the logs have been posted. they have been posted because (among other reasons) there are people in this and other threads who swear there isn't any sort of problem. Almost universally, these same people don't *have* any combat logs to show how much of a problem there isn't. so some people took it upon themselves to show their logs as proof.


    This is doubtless a complex event reliant on a bunch of factors, which I'm guessing has at least something to do with why the devs would prefer to conduct tests and gather evidence themselves. claiming to know what makes a good test or qualifies as good debugging practices contribute nothing to the discussion.

    They got this. I think t'palelena summed it up nice:
    tpalelena wrote: »
    They will need to run tests with all the cannons, cannon and attack patter abilities, and so on.... and then do it with the beams, with all the energy types and such.

    A lot of work.

    let's leave them to that.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    aexraelaexrael Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    in my log file from this last week i have 30878 energy weapon hits on a target. in that same period i have 1596 procs. im not real good at math, but 2.5 % of 30878 should be ~772 right? im getting about a 5% proc rate i figure. im not doing any sort of pvp'er hax ether, its just 3 DHCs, and 3 turrets, with a torp, and CRF at its system cooldown. normal escort behavior.

    heres the over view

    https://i.minus.com/ioIn0XC03gk7z.JPG

    and another look at the log

    https://i.minus.com/ir84Kx0foHL6Y.JPG

    please tell me how act is making this look worse then it is. all its doing is showing exactly what happens.

    3rd party software? what, act? its easy not to notice the proc going off sometimes when lots of numbers are flying around your ship. unless you can time stamp the cube fight with a log entry you cant really say there was no procs

    1596 procs needs to be divided by 4, as the proc for the shield console shows up 4 times in the log per 1 actual proc, as there are four shield facings. This is why the number of procs in ACT for the Shield Console are always divisible by 4.

    1596 / 4 = 399 actual procs / 30878 hits * 100 = 1.29% you are in fact proccing considerably less than the consoles stated %. So no you are not getting a 5% proc rate.
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    naeviusnaevius Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    aexrael wrote: »
    1596 / 4 = 399 actual procs / 30878 hits * 100 = 1.29% you are in fact proccing considerably less than the consoles stated %. So no you are not getting a 5% proc rate.

    Or he has half that number of actual 'hits', in which case the number is right on. I suspect that is the case...it goes by 'die rolls', not actual hits, so you get 1 hit per the 2 DHC shots.
    _________________________________________________
    [Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth]
    [Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk]
    [D'Mented][D'Licious]
    Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
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    lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited June 2013
    In my experience with this game, percentages stated in this game are pretty precise. The % of times it procs is not the problem.
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    yargomeshyargomesh Member Posts: 179 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    I looked through my own logging efforts for evidence of the Shield Absorption stuff and found some similar numbers, although my sample isn't as controlled as the others who've posted.
    I have four people who had the console and only one of them has the same type and frequency of numbers that dontdrunk has but there's still at least one instance of a 10k/20k heal in the others.

    The issue that remains is how are those huge numbers getting so huge? It's clearly not a 1:2 Damage/Heal ratio.

    Here's what I've discovered:

    12:58:28 Shield Absorptive Frequency Generator Proc : 9472 heal
    12:58:28 Phased Polaron Turret: Scatter Volley I : 285 damage
    12:58:28 Dual Phased Polaron Cannons: Scatter Volley I : 612
    12:58:28 Dual Phased Polaron Cannons: Scatter Volley I : 516
    etc. etc. 22 lines

    Next person:
    12:57:34 Shield Absorptive Frequency Generator Proc : 13556 heal
    12:57:34 Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons: Scatter Volley I : 1816 damage
    12:57:34 Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons: Scatter Volley I : 202
    12:57:34 Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons: Scatter Volley I : 1565
    12:57:34 Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons: Scatter Volley I : 1845
    etc. etc. 8 lines.

    12:56:48 Shield Absorptive Frequency Generator Proc : 16878 heal
    12:56:48 Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons: Scatter Volley I : 204 damage
    12:56:48 Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons: Scatter Volley I : 1704
    12:56:48 Plasma Turret: Scatter Volley I : 75
    12:56:48 Plasma Turret: Scatter Volley I : 449
    12:56:48 Plasma: Plasma Fire : 542 crit

    Next person:
    10:28:27 Shield Absorptive Frequency Generator Proc : 11142 heal
    10:28:27 Polaron Turret: Singularity Overcharge : 79 damage
    10:28:27 Polaron Turret: Singularity Overcharge : 77
    10:28:27 Plasma Turret: Singularity Overcharge : 91
    10:28:27 Dual Plasma Cannons: Singularity Overcharge : 363 crit
    10:28:27 Dual Heavy Plasma Cannons: Singularity Overcharge : 914 crit
    10:28:27 Plasma Turret: Singularity Overcharge : 89

    Final person:
    10:28:52 Shield Absorptive Frequency Generator Proc : 22873 heal
    10:28:52 Dual Heavy Disruptor Cannons : 734 damage
    10:28:52 Dual Heavy Disruptor Cannons : 1637 crit
    10:28:52 Dual Heavy Disruptor Cannons : 709

    10:26:05 Shield Absorptive Frequency Generator Proc : 24816 heal
    10:26:05 Dual Heavy Disruptor Cannons: Scatter Volley I : 1399 damage
    10:26:05 Directed Energy Modulation I : 82
    10:26:05 Dual Heavy Disruptor Cannons : Scatter Volley I : 30
    10:26:05 Directed Energy Modulation I : 1
    10:26:05 Dual Heavy Disruptor Cannons : Scatter Volley I : 1399
    10:26:05 Directed Energy Modulation I : 60
    etc. etc. 32 lines

    It seems Scatter Volley/'Applied Powers' are messing with the formula.
    I am puzzled about the normal DHC Disruptor proc. I'll investigate further though I recommend for people who log to also look at the same timestamps under Outgoing Damage.

    Anyone have a Beam Overload/Fire At Will instance to compare to all this cannoning?

    Here are my suggestions:
    If this is to remain a passive console with a per-shot proc chance then adjust the ratio to 1 damage : >1 healing, then cap both the minimum and maximum amount it can heal in the effort to prevent any such silly things as damaging your shields rather than healing them.

    However if this is turned into an active console then the ratio can remain but there does need to be max/min caps on how much it can heal per shot.

    As it is it's got the best of both worlds.
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    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Out of curiosity, if you were to add up the damage from the CSV...is it half of the proc'd heald?
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