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Simple Question: Any serious talk of a Borg Collective playable faction?

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  • cedricophoffcedricophoff Member Posts: 153 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    genlog76 wrote: »
    but stil funny how voyager easly kill a few cubes
    in the serie

    When all else fails, mess with the temporal prime directive. Nothing like getting some enhanced loot from the future. If only the borg had thought of that instead of going backwards in time.
  • lazarus51166lazarus51166 Member Posts: 646 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    real life logic doesnt apply. The idea of a Borg faction is no more unrealistic than the idea that we magically come back to life after our ship explodes.

    logical always applies. there are no exceptions to this under any circumstances. when you do something it has to be practical and make sense in context. a borg faction does not
    With that basic concept in mind, playing as a Borg would work exactly the same as playing as a member of Starfleet or the KDF: you are assigned a mission, you complete your mission, rinse and repeat. The only difference would be you are getting missions from "the collective" instead of Starfleet or the High Command

    this is not true
    What makes you think being part of a hive mind removes autonomy? You must think Im proposing we play as a drone...no, Im proposing we play as the autonomous entity within Collective that controls a whole ship(s) and its drones. Playing as a Vinculum is akin to being a Captain or Admiral in command of a ship(s) and its crew.

    seriously? removing autonomy is the basic concept behind the borg and how they function. there are no autonomous entities within the collective. just the drones and the queen. there is nothing autonomous about a vinculum.
    And for the people who still dont like the idea of playable Borg I have 3 words for you: dont play them. If a playable Borg faction is ever added to the game, I promise I wont come to your house and force you to play it.

    circular logic. akin to the 'if you don't like it leave' that keeps getting told to people around here. using your logic nobody has a right to complain if they added a faction of flying hamsters that shoot torpedoes out of their butts. because, of course, nobody would be forcing you to play it
    And aside from the rare "Q event" or time loop, you didnt come back to life every time you die either. So as I said previously, the idea of a playable Borg faction is no more unrealistic within the IP than magically coming back to life after your ship blows up.

    that is not an argument for what you are suggesting, nor does it have any comparison to it. you come back when you die because its a concession to the requirements of an mmo. that doesn't justify adding a borg faction that makes no sense in context for the IP
    When your character dies then magically comes back to life, you dont throw a fit about how it doesnt make sense; you understand it is simply a mechanic of the game. The same is true of a hypothetical Borg faction

    again, you are comparing two things that have nothing whatsoever to do with eachother. respawning doesn't justify a faction. you're saying things that do not make sense
    Read my posts again, you still seem to be thinking as if the player is to represent a single drone

    thats because thats how this game actually works
    You certainly assume their is no autonomy in the Collective, you assume all a.ctions must be dictated directly and explicitly from the Queen. None of this is true.

    yes it is true. that is how the collective operates
    How is a ship commanded by a vinculum by definition expressing some level of individualism

    borg ships are not command by a vinculum.
    Some of you people are SO ridiculous its funny. Once again, the idea of a playable borg faction is no more contradictory to the IP than the fact that Fed and KDF players magically come back to life when their ship explodes

    someone accusing people of being 'rediculous' shouldn't be trying to make comparisons between respawning and a faction that makes no sense. continuing to repeat the same claim, despite the fact it makes no sense, is in itself rediculous
    2 high level Cryptic employees(Craig and Dan) have both talked about doing a Borg faction one day

    no they didn't. in fact several cryptic employees stated it wasn't going to happen
    which they wouldnt have done if they didnt already know CBS would allow it.

    no. thats circular logic. even if they had said something about it, which they didn't, that would simply be that - a discussion. they discuss alot of things that never get approved or have no chance of ever happening, internally
    The devs have told us before that the forums do not represent the playerbase

    which is an offensive and derogatory claim on their part. and is not true. the forums are a cross section of the community as a whole. that is a fact.
    What does actually matter is that they have said they would like to do a Borg faction on more than one occasion, meaning they know they have the permission

    they have said nothing of the sort and again, discussing something does not mean they have permission to DO something.
    True that. With certain subjects they flat out tell us CBS wont allow it, but they have never said anything like that regarding a Borg faction

    they've never said cbs said no to a faction of giant man eating hamsters. does that mean they plan to add that sometime?
    But from the multiple comments they have made about doing a Borg faction one day, they are obviously fairly confident that they would be able to work it out

    why is it you keep repeating the same false claim? they never said anything - anything whatsoever about actually doing a borg faction
    And as recently as the latest Ask Cryptic, Dan is still talking about the possibility of a Borg faction.

    no he isn't
    The same computer/Vinculum that controls the ship also controls the individual drones.

    except that it neither controls the ship nor the drones
    The only "serious" talk about a Borg Player-Faction for STO, is here in the forums among interested players.

    correct
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    This is the only instance of a positive dev reponse to playable Borg factions
    Q: (sirking417) Is there any hope for other factions like being able to play a Borg side? Will we ever be able to get a Borg ship?

    Dstahl: Playing as a Borg has been suggested before and would be fun to develop. If we were to introduce a new faction, we would most likely start with the Romulans.

    Meaning that any Borg faction development is at the concept phase and most of the stuff at the concept phase doesn't get developed further or fails at a future phase. He does not say what type of Borg faction it would be
  • stof4nb0ystof4nb0y Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    I've just finished reading through most of this thread, and while I can understand both sides of the argument, the people who are saying that Borg couldnt be playable because of the IP are confusing the storyline of the game itself with their own real life awareness. Saying that a person sitting behind a computer controlling a Borg violates the IP is no different than saying that a person sitting behind a computer controlling a human or klingon also violates the IP, since humans and klingons arent controlled by people sitting behind computers.

    Within the storyline of the game, the person sitting behind the computer doesnt exist, only the characters in the game. Therefore what the person sitting behind the computer knows has nothing to do with the storyline of the game. The reality is, this game is like one big Star Trek convention, and our characters are like the costumes we wear. Some people will roleplay their characters, and others wont. The people who cant handle someone saying or doing something out of character are more than free to hide their chat or block certain people, but they have no right to tell anyone else how they should play the game. And that includes what ship they should fly, uniform they should wear, or even faction they should play.
    2 high level Cryptic employees(Craig and Dan) have both talked about doing a Borg faction one day
    no they didn't. in fact several cryptic employees stated it wasn't going to happen

    Absolutely no cryptic employee has ever said that(it wasnt going to happen). And because people should not be allowed to spread that kind of false information, I publicly challenge you to provide a source for your statement. I already know you cant, but its important that everyone else see that you cant too.
  • kimmerakimmera Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    stof4nb0y wrote: »
    I've just finished reading through most of this thread, and while I can understand both sides of the argument, the people who are saying that Borg couldnt be playable because of the IP are confusing the storyline of the game itself with their own real life awareness. Saying that a person sitting behind a computer controlling a Borg violates the IP is no different than saying that a person sitting behind a computer controlling a human or klingon also violates the IP, since humans and klingons arent controlled by people sitting behind computers.

    Within the storyline of the game, the person sitting behind the computer doesnt exist, only the characters in the game. Therefore what the person sitting behind the computer knows has nothing to do with the storyline of the game. The reality is, this game is like one big Star Trek convention, and our characters are like the costumes we wear. Some people will roleplay their characters, and others wont. The people who cant handle someone saying or doing something out of character are more than free to hide their chat or block certain people, but they have no right to tell anyone else how they should play the game. And that includes what ship they should fly, uniform they should wear, or even faction they should play.

    I think you are misunderstanding the objection.

    It isn't that playing the Borg would in and of itself break the IP, but that playing the Borg as if they have individual captains would.

    Even though it is true that there are Fed players who don't play as if they fit in with the Federation, and KDF players who play very non-Klingon, there are examples of both in canon. Both races have significant levels of individuality and it is even considered a trademark of the Federation. Every canon Star Fleet captain flaunted regs to at least some degree. Even Picard did so and he was about as by the book as it gets.

    Borg are deliberately defined as not like that.

    Borg being playable as a conventional faction breaks that.

    As a 'monster mission' type thing? Maybe. As a faction? Not so much.
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    kimmera wrote: »
    I think you are misunderstanding the objection.

    It isn't that playing the Borg would in and of itself break the IP, but that playing the Borg as if they have individual captains would.

    Even though it is true that there are Fed players who don't play as if they fit in with the Federation, and KDF players who play very non-Klingon, there are examples of both in canon. Both races have significant levels of individuality and it is even considered a trademark of the Federation. Every canon Star Fleet captain flaunted regs to at least some degree. Even Picard did so and he was about as by the book as it gets.

    Borg are deliberately defined as not like that.

    Borg being playable as a conventional faction breaks that.

    As a 'monster mission' type thing? Maybe. As a faction? Not so much.

    I think the discussion has always been towards the idea of post-Collective Borg.

    Like Hugh or the Borg Cooperative.

    As for whether that makes the Borg "less scary," I'm going to pose the question: why does having the Borg as a scary threat matter?

    They served their purpose. Asking for them to be perpetually scary and around is like asking for Okona to be perpetually annoying and around.
  • hravikhravik Member Posts: 1,203 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    I think the discussion has always been towards the idea of post-Collective Borg.

    Go back and read the OP. This is exactly the opposite of what he's asking for.

    Thats it, no liberated, Fed-washed, watered down, house Borg. Im talking about the full blown Collective.

    Which is why I think its silly. He's asking for the collective, but the only way to play an MMO is as individual. The two are quite literally mutually exclusive.
  • stof4nb0ystof4nb0y Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    kimmera wrote: »
    I think you are misunderstanding the objection.

    It isn't that playing the Borg would in and of itself break the IP, but that playing the Borg as if they have individual captains would.

    No, I completely understand the objection. But what I'm telling you is that you are confusing the storyline of the game itself with your own real life awareness. Within the storyline of the game, the person sitting behind the computer doesnt exist, only the characters in the game. And within the storyline of the game, someone playing a Borg character wouldnt be an "individual captain", they would be a member of the collective. The fact that they would be playing a single character is simply a game mechanic, not an element of the game's story.
  • kimmerakimmera Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    stof4nb0y wrote: »
    No, I completely understand the objection. But what I'm telling you is that you are confusing the storyline of the game itself with your own real life awareness. Within the storyline of the game, the person sitting behind the computer doesnt exist, only the characters in the game. And within the storyline of the game, someone playing a Borg character wouldnt be an "individual captain", they would be a member of the collective. The fact that they would be playing a single character is simply a game mechanic, not an element of the game's story.

    So?

    So the person playing a Borg would be content to play with a character that walks at a Borg pace, never runs, never responds proactively to a potential threat, *must* accept missions and carry them out slowly and methodically, etc?

    You are not a 'member' of the collective. It isn't a club. You are a 'piece' of the collective.

    It is not a matter of knowing the character is a character. It is a matter of knowing that the character is a character who acts inconsistent with the story and setting.
  • stof4nb0ystof4nb0y Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    kimmera wrote: »
    So?

    So the person playing a Borg would be content to play with a character that walks at a Borg pace, never runs, never responds proactively to a potential threat, *must* accept missions and carry them out slowly and methodically, etc?

    People already except slow turn rates on ships as a trade off for other things, so slower ground movement could be comparable. There are are also already different "classes" of Borg that you encounter in the game(some are tougher than others and some are specialized in healing or combat), so it is not inconceivable within the storyline of the game that a new "class" could be created that has greater speed/agility. After all, as the Federation and Klingons continue to advance in technology, it is only logical that the Borg would continue to adapt as well.

    As far as not responding proactively, the Borg have already encountered all of the factions in STO, and according to the storyline of the game they are actively invading the alpha and beta quadrant, so there is plenty of gameplay to be had with the pre-existing storyline.
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    hravik wrote: »
    Go back and read the OP. This is exactly the opposite of what he's asking for.

    And the devs have always said they'd find true Borg both boring and problematic but a Borg offshoot is what they'd like to do.
  • stof4nb0ystof4nb0y Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    And the devs have always said they'd find true Borg both boring and problematic but a Borg offshoot is what they'd like to do.

    I have never seen any statement elaborating on what a hypothetical Borg faction would actually be like, so please link to the statement you are referring to.
  • retunred4goodretunred4good Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Yeah, I don't see how this would work. Basically, you'd have a Borg with free will. A Borg with free will would have no place in the Collective. For the sake of all other arguments, I can't get past that one point.
    -It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.-- Mark Twain.
  • stof4nb0ystof4nb0y Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Yeah, I don't see how this would work. Basically, you'd have a Borg with free will. A Borg with free will would have no place in the Collective. For the sake of all other arguments, I can't get past that one point.

    The Borg would not have free will according to the storyline of the game. Like a few others in this thread, you are confusing the storyline of the game itself with your own real life awareness. Within the storyline of the game, the person sitting behind the computer doesnt exist, only the characters in the game. And within the storyline of the game, someone playing a Borg character wouldnt have free will, they would simply be part of the collective. The fact that the person playing a Borg would be controlling a single character would simply be a game mechanic, not part of the game's story.
  • centersolacecentersolace Member Posts: 11,178 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Yeah, I don't see how this would work. Basically, you'd have a Borg with free will. A Borg with free will would have no place in the Collective. For the sake of all other arguments, I can't get past that one point.

    The Borg Cooperative? Would that work as a faction?
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    stof4nb0y wrote: »
    I have never seen any statement elaborating on what a hypothetical Borg faction would actually be like, so please link to the statement you are referring to.

    All that I'm aware of were before the forums merged so there's no way of showing who authored what... But I recall that being the general line from Wishstone. Before her, Zinc (the original EP of STO who left the company and came back as an exec) with a tease or two that direction by Stahl, who always also seemed inclined towards doing Romulans before thinking too hard about the others. But there's been maybe one dev post or so every six months saying that IF they did it, it would be outside the Collective or questioning whether there will be any Collective left after Into the Hive.

    Zinc is the one who wanted a Borg faction since before launch.
  • stof4nb0ystof4nb0y Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    All that I'm aware of were before the forums merged so there's no way of showing who authored what... But I recall that being the general line from Wishstone. Before her, Zinc (the original EP of STO who left the company and came back as an exec) with a tease or two that direction by Stahl, who always also seemed inclined towards doing Romulans before thinking too hard about the others. But there's been maybe one dev post or so every six months saying that IF they did it, it would be outside the Collective or questioning whether there will be any Collective left after Into the Hive.

    Zinc is the one who wanted a Borg faction since before launch.

    Even if it is in an old thread, any Dev post will have been quoted multiple times, and the name of the person who made the post shows up in the quotes. I have definitely seen the various comments regarding a possible Borg faction, but never the ones you are referring to stating it would be outside the collective. Please post a link to any one of them.
  • retunred4goodretunred4good Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    stof4nb0y wrote: »
    The Borg would not have free will according to the storyline of the game. Like a few others in this thread, you are confusing the storyline of the game itself with your own real life awareness. Within the storyline of the game, the person sitting behind the computer doesnt exist, only the characters in the game. And within the storyline of the game, someone playing a Borg character wouldnt have free will, they would simply be part of the collective. The fact that the person playing a Borg would be controlling a single character would simply be a game mechanic, not part of the game's story.

    That sounds to me like over-analytical nonsense. Making something sound more complicated doesn't make it more logical. Imagine what happens in STF's when you get assimilated; you have no control over where you go or what you do. Remember, Freud said that "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar". Obscuring something with over-analysis doesn't give it validity.
    The Borg Cooperative? Would that work as a faction?

    Now THAT makes more sense. The challenge would be in how to pull that off.
    -It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.-- Mark Twain.
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Now THAT makes more sense. The challenge would be in how to pull that off.

    I can see ways to pull it off but I think you'd need to goth them up quite a bit and re-Borgify them.

    Frankly, I think the reason it holds water is because intelligent zombies and drow elves have held so much stock in fantasy RPGs.

    It's a matter of doing that with Borg flavor.

    They'd have Necropolis-style hubs with lots of shadow and neon green, creepy imagery, probably some clever co-opting of the Borg.

    I imagine it'd be a creepy, assimilated sort of Gothic London and you'd have Borg nobles limping around in ragged frilly outfits.

    Have Borg Caitians experiments as a kind of werewolf type thing.

    Done up right, I think it would be Star Trek: World of Darkness. Probably replace the zombie metaphor with a vampire metaphor on the whole. Which you could get with the Nosferatu style Remans but I imagine this would go in a more Anne Rice's Borg kind of direction. Done truly properly, I'd imagine these would be less commentary on collectivism and more commentary on Ayn Rand's notions of individualism (which is a response to Soviet style collectivism, embraced most fervently by refugees from collectivist states gone wrong.) Instead of people being subjugated wholly, they'd be using a mishmash of disposable limbs and personally sought after upgrades.

    In effect, the Anti-Borg but with iconography, ships, and terms lifted from the Borg.
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    I'd looked at doing something similar in Foundry missions, with a future "Constitutional Monarchy" of Borg, with Barons, Archdukes, Duchesses... Playing more with the cybernetic theme of industrial revolution and the ruthless barons that produces. Very Tim Burton Steampunk.

    As for links, I don't really see the value in citations because, as this debate always comes up, I come here to spout ideas and half-remembered bits of trivia. Digging through forum posts that are unindexed to track down comments from people no longer at Star Trek Online to suggest a direction that simply won't even begin development until after Romulans and Cardassians seems fruitless. We're talking two year old comments to try and forecast something that's another two years out, based on comments made mostly by departed team members... Eh.

    It would probably be easier to find STOked's response to it.

    The one thing that might make it worth digging around for are the comments where it was suggested that Into the Hive would mark a huge departure from any previous IP status quos for the Borg. At this point, though, I'd rather just play Into the Hive when it's out and see if it is, say, the end of the Collective or a faction setup.

    STO does borrow a lot from archetypal MMO designs, down to the desire to give KDF a pretty race (Orions). And a part of that is the intelligent, self-possessed, vengeance driven ex-zombie in a dark kingdom with a beloved queen. (In fact, not JUST MMOs. ALL of Blizzard's games seem to have this.) I'd imagine Seven of Nine (and Donatra as a back-up, pending likeness approvals) are positioned rather transparently as a Kerrigan or Sylvanas figure for STO. That's what I get out of the STO novel, the Path to 2409, etc.

    Really, what would tie it all together or not hinges on whether the Borg ARE linked to the Iconians. I re-watched the Iconian episodes of TNG and DS9 this weekend and here's what jumped out (aside from my usual Picard-Iconian conspiracy theory):

    The Borg are at least 200,000 years old.
    The Iconians were driven from the galaxy 200,000 years ago by orbital bombardment.
    The Iconians used a computer virus against their enemies that shut down technology.

    This was all stated within a few episodes of one another.

    I see a connection there. Enough that I'd ask Steve Gerber (who created the Iconians) if he were still with us. (He passed a couple of years back.) I know at least one writer who did more with the Iconians than anyone else. I could ask him if he's aware of any planned connections there.

    I SUSPECT that we'll stop the Borg, the Iconians will finish them off (as they've done a few times in STO), and that's when we find out that the Borg were the only thing holding the Iconians at bay. (My Picard idea really ties into that pretty profoundly but I doubt we'll see much about Picard in STO.)
  • retunred4goodretunred4good Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    I'd looked at doing something similar in Foundry missions, with a future "Constitutional Monarchy" of Borg, with Barons, Archdukes, Duchesses... Playing more with the cybernetic theme of industrial revolution and the ruthless barons that produces. Very Tim Burton Steampunk.

    As for links, I don't really see the value in citations because, as this debate always comes up, I come here to spout ideas and half-remembered bits of trivia. Digging through forum posts that are unindexed to track down comments from people no longer at Star Trek Online to suggest a direction that simply won't even begin development until after Romulans and Cardassians seems fruitless. We're talking two year old comments to try and forecast something that's another two years out, based on comments made mostly by departed team members... Eh.

    It would probably be easier to find STOked's response to it.

    The one thing that might make it worth digging around for are the comments where it was suggested that Into the Hive would mark a huge departure from any previous IP status quos for the Borg. At this point, though, I'd rather just play Into the Hive when it's out and see if it is, say, the end of the Collective or a faction setup.

    STO does borrow a lot from archetypal MMO designs, down to the desire to give KDF a pretty race (Orions). And a part of that is the intelligent, self-possessed, vengeance driven ex-zombie in a dark kingdom with a beloved queen. (In fact, not JUST MMOs. ALL of Blizzard's games seem to have this.) I'd imagine Seven of Nine (and Donatra as a back-up, pending likeness approvals) are positioned rather transparently as a Kerrigan or Sylvanas figure for STO. That's what I get out of the STO novel, the Path to 2409, etc.

    Really, what would tie it all together or not hinges on whether the Borg ARE linked to the Iconians. I re-watched the Iconian episodes of TNG and DS9 this weekend and here's what jumped out (aside from my usual Picard-Iconian conspiracy theory):

    The Borg are at least 200,000 years old.
    The Iconians were driven from the galaxy 200,000 years ago by orbital bombardment.
    The Iconians used a computer virus against their enemies that shut down technology.

    This was all stated within a few episodes of one another.

    I see a connection there. Enough that I'd ask Steve Gerber (who created the Iconians) if he were still with us. (He passed a couple of years back.) I know at least one writer who did more with the Iconians than anyone else. I could ask him if he's aware of any planned connections there.

    I SUSPECT that we'll stop the Borg, the Iconians will finish them off (as they've done a few times in STO), and that's when we find out that the Borg were the only thing holding the Iconians at bay. (My Picard idea really ties into that pretty profoundly but I doubt we'll see much about Picard in STO.)

    LOL Dude, you always come up with good ideas that stay within the realm of ST canon and possibility; the biggest problem is you don't work for them. :( But that sounds quite feasible. Off topic: what happened to that Odo mission you were making?
    -It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.-- Mark Twain.
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    LOL Dude, you always come up with good ideas that stay within the realm of ST canon and possibility; the biggest problem is you don't work for them. :( But that sounds quite feasible. Off topic: what happened to that Odo mission you were making?

    What happened was that the Foundry went down, I moved and was without internet, and when I came back, I got a lovely bunch of new maps to play with just as I'm starting back to school (working on a second Master's, taking a full load AND working to test out of around six courses since this is a radical discipline shift for me).

    The Odo thing was a fun bit I had planned. It'll happen. But I may try shifting things around so I have to build fewer custom maps to accommodate school.

    Now that we have some quality ship interiors, I'm looking at rewriting things to be bottle episodes. Less map flashbang. More character driven. I can build a pretty snazzy map in around 15-20 hours, which actually accounts for most of the time I spend building a mission.

    One thing that should save time going forward is that I have a master list of canon characters I can easily use without violating the EULA (Starfleet side at least; Odo is a question mark I want to test since I've been told I can do the voice well and that could help with trailers).

    Honestly, my biggest delay right now is that I want to recreate or plausibly conceal all the NPC placements on DS9 for the Odo mission and my other mission involves placing 44 named and unique looking NPCs on a Defiant interior, all doing something interesting and at appropriate stations. The idea of missions where no NPC is generic (and they all have relevant chatter) seems to be pretty consuming right now and will only get crazier if they add pathing. I may just find creative ways to block off unused parts of DS9.

    The upside is that, hopefully, I'll hit a point where I can comfortably start reusing things. I know I'm not as prolific as somebody like Murphy but would eventually like to stake out the turf of doing bottle episodes, ie. mass producing missions set on a Defiant interior.
  • stof4nb0ystof4nb0y Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    That sounds to me like over-analytical nonsense.

    Calling something "nonsense" has never been and will never be a valid counter-argument. I could have easily called several posts that I have replied to "nonsense" rather than take the time to make a real reply to them, but I have more respect for other people and myself than to resort to that type of tactic.
    Making something sound more complicated doesn't make it more logical.

    I completely agree. However, you have it backwards; it is the people who are mixing/confusing what they know as a real person with the storyline of the game that are over-complicating the topic. Saying that a person sitting behind a computer controlling a Borg violates the IP is no different than saying that a person sitting behind a computer controlling a human or klingon also violates the IP, since humans and klingons arent controlled by people sitting behind computers.
  • docsnoopydocsnoopy Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    After reading all of this I still believe that Borg as a full player faction (like Fed or KDF) will not make much sense or work at all.

    The Borg are different and should stay different.

    A "monster play" mini-faction (something like monsterplay in LotR) could work. Much more linear story line and character development as other factions but something new and unique.

    Maybe a feature for the z-store or an incentive for subscription/lifetime.

    What do you think?
  • stof4nb0ystof4nb0y Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    docsnoopy wrote: »
    After reading all of this I still believe that Borg as a full player faction (like Fed or KDF) will not make much sense or work at all.

    The Borg are different and should stay different.

    A "monster play" mini-faction (something like monsterplay in LotR) could work. Much more linear story line and character development as other factions but something new and unique.

    Maybe a feature for the z-store or an incentive for subscription/lifetime.

    What do you think?

    I agree that it wouldnt be practical to try to create any story-heavy Borg missions(like the episodic content that the Feds have). However the way the bare bones star cluster type missions work would be perfect for a Borg faction, because the only difference would be instead of destroying 5 ships you would be assimilating 5 ships. And of course, as you mentioned, a type of monster-play PvP scenrio could work quite well.
  • retunred4goodretunred4good Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    stof4nb0y wrote: »
    Calling something "nonsense" has never been and will never be a valid counter-argument. I could have easily called several posts that I have replied to "nonsense" rather than take the time to make a real reply to them, but I have more respect for other people and myself than to resort to that type of tactic.

    :rolleyes: Apparently, I'm not the only one who thinks it doesn't make sense. It's not a tactic, it's a simple statement. Simple, and to the point. It's not elaborate or full of fluff, just descriptive. Sorry, but some things aren't worth dignifying with a "real" response.
    -It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.-- Mark Twain.
  • kimmerakimmera Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    I SUSPECT that we'll stop the Borg, the Iconians will finish them off (as they've done a few times in STO), and that's when we find out that the Borg were the only thing holding the Iconians at bay. (My Picard idea really ties into that pretty profoundly but I doubt we'll see much about Picard in STO.)

    Weren't the Undine holding the Borg at bay? (At least til Janeway decaptiated the Borg)
  • ayreon76#1360 ayreon76 Member Posts: 93 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    kimmera wrote: »
    Weren't the Undine holding the Borg at bay? (At least til Janeway decaptiated the Borg)

    yup in the serie undine was to powerfull for the borg becouse there ships was alive none metal so for the Borg inposeble to adept

    here what i found ^^

    Species 8472 uses a type of organic spacecraft known only as a bioship composed of the same organic material as their pilots and typically controlled by a single pilot. Despite Species 8472's use of telepathic communication, it is not clear whether the Bioships themselves are controlled telepathically as Species 8472 has been witnessed to operate a console in order to pilot a bioship. A bioship explored by members of the Voyager crew contained an atmosphere breathable by humanoids; however as it was in atmospheric contact with the inside of a Borg cube at the time, it is possible the original atmosphere of the bioship had been displaced by the internal atmosphere of the Borg vessel.

    Each bioship possesses an electrodynamic fluid circulatory system presumably for the distribution of power, a neurological computer core, an incredibly powerful biogenic energy weapon system, and warp capability. The hull can change shape to attach to other ships, melting through the hull, and can rapidly heal damage. The vessel can function effectively in both normal space and fluidic space. The bioship's main weapon is powerful enough to destroy a Borg cube in only a few shots. Likewise, when a Borg cube rammed a bioship to destroy it, both vessels were annihilated despite the comparatively smaller mass of the bioship. The weapons of eight bioships (referred to in Star Trek: Armada II as "Species 8472 battleships") can be linked with that of a larger ninth bioship of modified design (referred to in Armada II as a "Species 8472 bio-frigate"); the collective weapon thus formed can destroy an entire planet in seconds.
  • stof4nb0ystof4nb0y Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Sorry, but some things aren't worth dignifying with a "real" response.

    If it is easier for you to try to dismiss everything I said than to actually formulate a counter-argument, that is fine. But that only shows your inability to do so, not that what I said was wrong.
  • kimmerakimmera Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    stof4nb0y wrote: »
    If it is easier for you to try to dismiss everything I said than to actually formulate a counter-argument, that is fine. But that only shows your inability to do so, not that what I said was wrong.

    I, on the other hand, agree with him that your argument represents an over analysis of the concept and is fundamentally flawed. And I have given my reasons.

    Your counter seems to be that since the characters are fictional and don't know the difference, that it should not make any difference how far from the IP the game gets.

    The flaw in your logic is that the characters will never know the differences because they are fictional and programmed. This is true irrespective of degree.

    So basicly, you are arguing that there is no such thing as plot or setting, since they are artificial constructs not 'knowable' by fictional characters within the constructs. It is a false argument, since plot and setting are meant for the very real reader or viewer of the material. The only reason they need to seem internally consistent to the characters within the work is so that it remains believable to the reader.
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