Well, the Federation also intervened in RSE-affaires (even violant) so it is tricky to say who attack when - and of course you could also argue if there should not be at least some negotiation between KDF and the self-proclaimed heirs of the Empire (the Rom Rep) on the one and the Federation on the other side, not just "jumping in" and bringing a still fragile peace in danger. By the way, so quick as the Fed bring this ships on it seems that they were preparing that a while...
And the treaty was not only for the benefit of the Roms but also the KDF. And of course some kind of kind gesture towards the RSE may also be wise, if the Fed want peace (as theiy claim). In that way they angered both enemies and friends...
A bad SpoonFed with a Rihannsu-style cloaking ability is still a bad SpoonFed. Dev Team has consistently raided tlh'Ingan special items/abilities for years to satisfy the cravings of the SpoonFed portion of the playerbase. Which is the larger part because most people do not have the talent to play tlh'Ingan or Rihannsu effectively. Or they are too lazy to click more than one button at a time.
Now why would the Devs do this?
1) Profit.
2) All the really good ideas got sent to the tlh'Ingan faction and later the Rihannsu half faction.
Rather than dig into the rich history and traditions of Starfleet innovations and come with something unique for the SpoonFeds, it requires far less care, effort and work to simply copy/paste something which all the SpoonFeds want anyways. And when the SpoonFeds are given something unique to them, they ignore it or claim it isn't any good. As an example, How many Vestas did you see swanning about the last time you were ingame? And of those Vestas, how many were simply light carriers rather than full on Science vessels? How many Steamrunners have you seen lately? How many SpoonFeds will be lined up to grab this year's Nanopulse Bat'leth? When was the last time in the Battle Zone anyone saw a SpoonFed running StarFleet issue equipment?
So, OP, the way I see it, give everything to the SpoonFeds. All of it. Every. Last. Item. Most of the SpoonFeds won't know how to use whatever they're given effectively anyways and they'll be bored with it five seconds after the next new shiny comes out.
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
Well, the Federation also intervened in RSE-affaires (even violant) so it is tricky to say who attack when - and of course you could also argue if there should not be at least some negotiation between KDF and the self-proclaimed heirs of the Empire (the Rom Rep) on the one and the Federation on the other side, not just "jumping in" and bringing a still fragile peace in danger. By the way, so quick as the Fed bring this ships on it seems that they were preparing that a while...
And the treaty was not only for the benefit of the Roms but also the KDF. And of course some kind of kind gesture towards the RSE may also be wise, if the Fed want peace (as theiy claim). In that way they angered both enemies and friends...
In case you are unaware, the Federation has long had the capability to make a cloaking device. They stole one and successfully used it in "The Enterprise Incident". THey also developed the Phase Cloak, as shown in the TNG episode "The Pegasus", and in DS9, they made Cloaking devices to fit to the minefield without Romulan aid. Their capacity to make a cloak is established. THe only reason they did is because they kept to the terms of the Treaty of Algeron.
Your other premise, that if D'tan traded cloaking technology for aid, he is a traitor, is flawed. The RSE did the same thing. THey traded cloaking technology to the Klingons in the mid 23rd century for Klingon weapons technology, and for a supply of D7 class battlecruisers. YOur beloved Star Empire is in the same basket.
Another thing to consider is gameplay and story segregation. I have noted, and assume you have, that NPC Defiants and Galaxy-Xs are never seen using Cloaking devices. The only reason that they are available is because the original Defiant in DS9, and the Enterprise in All Good Things, had them. Remember that this is the game where you can fly a TOS Constitution or an NX. If they didn't have them, then the Feddie Bears would throw a temper tantrum.
Can we go to war with the UFP Now? Or at least use it to push for concessions? Maybe unilateral action by RR and KDF against the UFP? We could use more worlds I think. :P
Did not the RSE attacked the Feddies, that effectively void the treaty. Beside, be greatful that the we just use normal sensor and EM-cloak instead of phase-cloacks.
Technically speaking, the war was started by the fed, first by sending spies and saboteur into Romulan territory, then by sending an entire fleet to destroy the RSE fleet orbiting their new homeworld. The mission is called "pre-emptive strike".
The RSE might have shot fed ships sent to help refugees, right after the homeworlds destruction, but considering it was a total mess back then, the ships were actually intruding in RSE territories, and most of the destruction was from Nero, a rogue Romulan, I wouldn't consider that starting a war. And it was decades ago.
Wasn't the treaty with the Romulan People & Senate? That world, senate and people don't exist anymore.
Blame JJ.
In the path to 2409, it says the current fed President renewed the Treaty of Algernon.
But hey, cloak sells. Players asked for fed cloak for a while. Cryptic gave them a cloak. It's not unexpected. That's like asking the ferengi to watch over the deal...
Technically speaking, the war was started by the fed, first by sending spies and saboteur into Romulan territory, then by sending an entire fleet to destroy the RSE fleet orbiting their new homeworld. The mission is called "pre-emptive strike".
The RSE might have shot fed ships sent to help refugees, right after the homeworlds destruction, but considering it was a total mess back then, the ships were actually intruding in RSE territories, and most of the destruction was from Nero, a rogue Romulan, I wouldn't consider that starting a war. And it was decades ago.
Technically speaking 'pre-emptive strike' was ordered (if I recall correct) by rogue SF Admiral who turned out to be Undine infiltrator. So technically it's same type of situation as with Nero.
We can't speak about breaking the treaty because one of the signatures do not exist anymore and didn't left any legal successor. After destruction of Romulus we had at least three self claiming New RSE, but non of them were legally chosen government, so in the view of law non of them were successor for RSE. RR and D'Tan from the beginning were saying that they are new country, they even went and found new homeworld out of official RSE territory.
Rather than dig into the rich history and traditions of Starfleet innovations and come with something unique for the SpoonFeds, it requires far less care, effort and work to simply copy/paste something which all the SpoonFeds want anyways. And when the SpoonFeds are given something unique to them, they ignore it or claim it isn't any good. As an example, How many Vestas did you see swanning about the last time you were ingame? And of those Vestas, how many were simply light carriers rather than full on Science vessels? How many Steamrunners have you seen lately? How many SpoonFeds will be lined up to grab this year's Nanopulse Bat'leth? When was the last time in the Battle Zone anyone saw a SpoonFed running StarFleet issue equipment?
(...)
This here is the biggest problem, IMHO. From the very beginning STO never actually tried to explore the technology and playstyle one would associate with the UFP. Instead, all warfighter battleships, miniguns and plasma grenades were the way to go and to this very day they insist on continuing the trend.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
For the OP: the Romulan Star Empire is gone, your current people use weapons of mass destruction common place (Thaeleron weapons) in clear violation of said treaty, disarm your warbirds and then we will talk about relinquishing our intelligence capabilities in the Delta quadrant.. For an "ally" you seem very intent upon gaining a tactical advantage over those that fought their own allies to defend you (see the KDF RRW war after your own government betrayed you to the Iconians which is why Hobus exploded) I am sure our Klingon allies would love another chance to wipe the quadrant of duplicitous allies.
In the path to 2409, it says the current fed President renewed the Treaty of Algernon.
No, it does not. It explicitly says that in the strict legal sense, the Treaty is no more.
Also note that the Treaty was with the RSE.
The RR is a separate political entity that existed at the same time as the RSE.
The RSE began overt hostilities with the RR when the RR sought recognition from the Klingons and Federation.
Can we go to war with the UFP Now? Or at least use it to push for concessions? Maybe unilateral action by RR and KDF against the UFP? We could use more worlds I think. :P
I think it is incorrect to treat the actions of the RSE during their alliance with the Klingons in the same way as D'Tans acttion. First and above all, D'Tan is not the legal ruler of all Romulans (you could also much argue about the question how legal his claim of leadership about the Republic is). So he of course has much less the right to do anything what many have influence to the fate of all Romulans.
Second of course the terms and circumstances are different. When the RSE changed tech with the Klingons they got a major boost in technology and weapons/ships - and they did so to counter the threat of an already strong Federation. It was a calculated action to strengthen an ally (and yourself) to counter a common foe. After that action the Klingon Empire and the RSE were able to stand firm against the Federation, and even seperated they were quiet a foe which must be recognized by the Feds. When D'Tan gave away tech and the service of ships and men/women he strengthen potential rivals which were at that time already much stronger than the Romulans (and BOTH had commited several acts of aggression and even crimes against Romulan people just short time ago). So he got much less and under curcumstances he could much, much less keep under control. He strengthen potential rivals which already were strong enough to wipe him out - risking to loose some of the few things the Romulan forces had as advantage...
You are correct that the Federation had indeed access zu cloak-technology before - but why did they need the Romulans to get her Defiant ship cloaked if they were so "good" with that kind of stuff? Even if you steal technolgy from your rivals, it mean not that you could handle and develope it further in the same way as they could, perhaps just because you put much less ressources in that kind of research. And sch disadvantages are not so easy to wipe out. Just some years behind your rival could mean a lot.
General and to all
What make me wonder is that this "argument" that the RSE is gone and the Fed are no longer bound (if they not choose to do so) is used in such a biased way. If someone argue in that way it should be obvious that the heirs of the RSE are ALSO not bound to any other treaty - including those who might ban certain weapons etc. But surely in the moment when that happens some people will cry out loud... *g*
You are correct that the Federation had indeed access zu cloak-technology before - but why did they need the Romulans to get her Defiant ship cloaked if they were so "good" with that kind of stuff? Even if you steal technolgy from your rivals, it mean not that you could handle and develope it further in the same way as they could, perhaps just because you put much less ressources in that kind of research. And sch disadvantages are not so easy to wipe out. Just some years behind your rival could mean a lot.
General and to all
Defiant need Romulans is because of the treaty. " The treaty also expressly prohibited the development or use of cloaking device technology by the Federation. "
prohibited the development or use of cloaking device technology
prohibited the development or use of cloaking device technology
prohibited the development or use of cloaking device technology
prohibited the development or use of cloaking device technology
If the feddies use cloaked ship, then the Romulans will be all over them. Beside the feddies already have more advanced phase-cloaks, normal cloak wont be a problem for feddies anyway.
Hell it is a miracle that UFP havent become the dominating Power of alpha and beta quadrant consider what happend:
RSE shattered and broken.
Klingons need 10 years to rebuild their strength from the losses at Dominon war, not to mention Picard is Martoks Arbiter of succession and have influence to "borrow" Three Kvorts BoP.
Ferengis grand Nagus Rom is pro-fed and have a son in starfleet Academy.
Cardassia prime got slaugthered by Jemhadar, the Union probably signed som very disadvantageous treties becaause they were at Dominions side for so long(japan lost WW2 and were forced to sign disadvantageous treties, they dont even have a real military now.)
Voyager brought some Borg Tech home and two borg tech expert(Acheb and 7of9), and Voyager had alot of progress in quantum slipstream too
Hast thou not gone against sincerity
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
Picard was arbiter for Gawron, Martok become Chancellor by Worf hand.
I think it is incorrect to treat the actions of the RSE during their alliance with the Klingons in the same way as D'Tans acttion. First and above all, D'Tan is not the legal ruler of all Romulans (you could also much argue about the question how legal his claim of leadership about the Republic is). So he of course has much less the right to do anything what many have influence to the fate of all Romulans.
Second of course the terms and circumstances are different. When the RSE changed tech with the Klingons they got a major boost in technology and weapons/ships - and they did so to counter the threat of an already strong Federation. It was a calculated action to strengthen an ally (and yourself) to counter a common foe. After that action the Klingon Empire and the RSE were able to stand firm against the Federation, and even seperated they were quiet a foe which must be recognized by the Feds. When D'Tan gave away tech and the service of ships and men/women he strengthen potential rivals which were at that time already much stronger than the Romulans (and BOTH had commited several acts of aggression and even crimes against Romulan people just short time ago). So he got much less and under curcumstances he could much, much less keep under control. He strengthen potential rivals which already were strong enough to wipe him out - risking to loose some of the few things the Romulan forces had as advantage...
You are correct that the Federation had indeed access zu cloak-technology before - but why did they need the Romulans to get her Defiant ship cloaked if they were so "good" with that kind of stuff? Even if you steal technolgy from your rivals, it mean not that you could handle and develope it further in the same way as they could, perhaps just because you put much less ressources in that kind of research. And sch disadvantages are not so easy to wipe out. Just some years behind your rival could mean a lot.
General and to all
What make me wonder is that this "argument" that the RSE is gone and the Fed are no longer bound (if they not choose to do so) is used in such a biased way. If someone argue in that way it should be obvious that the heirs of the RSE are ALSO not bound to any other treaty - including those who might ban certain weapons etc. But surely in the moment when that happens some people will cry out loud... *g*
If we speak how it really techniclaly should work then:
1) D'Tan and Republic never usurp that their are RSE successors. Contrary from very beginning they said Republic is completely new political structure having nothing in common with scattered RSE.
2) As non of New RSEs in a legally chosen government, all were crated by usurpers, technically non of FED-RSE treaties is in force. Yes that also means those which ban Romulans from using some types of weapons. But as those New RSEs want to be saw as heirs to RSE they will keep to then just to make themselves look good.
Obviously D'Tan cannot speak for all Romulans. He is the legally elected head of state of the Romulan Republic, while many of our Sisters and brothers yet live under the Imperial yoke. However, as head of state of the Romulan Republic, he is fully entitled to conduct negotiations, such as exchanges of technology, with other states. Since the Republic has cloaking technology, it is well within it's rights as a sovereign state to trade that technology for other technologies or aid it desires. :P
You are also correct about the circumstances of the first treaty. The Klingons and Romulans made a fair trade of technology and resources to strengthen each other. And that is what would have happened here, if the Romulans traded cloaking technology. The fact that the Federation is capable of making its own cloaking devices, without Romulan aid, is well established in TNG, DS9, and in Cryptic's Path To 2409. The fact that they have only done so under the auspices of Section 31 so far is due to the Federation's unusual idealism, and now that the Romulan Star Empire is at war with the Federation, the Treaty of Algeron is voided.
The reason that the Defiant "needed" Romulan supervision and aid, was because at that time the treaty was still being enforced, and the Romulans allowed the Federation to operate a cloak for intelligence gathering missions in the Gamma Quadrant, a situation from which they benefited as well. The Federation could readily have produced and installed a phase cloak, such as the one from the USS Pegasus, but did not by choice, preferring to maintain good relations with the Romulans.
You are correct in that the Federation did not develop the cloaking technology stolen in 2268 along the same path as the Romulans. Instead, they developed the Phase cloak, which has its own set of advantages and disadvantages compared to Romulan cloaks. I would venture a guess, that the Republic, by refraining from making a stink about the Treaty of Algeron, gained a concession, such as the right to to use Thalaron weaponry in combat. Note that the Federation and Klingons do not use it, and neither have prevented the Republic from utilizing the weapons. I would postulate that if D'Tan were the puppet of the Federation and the Vulcans that you constantly paint him as, his puppetmasters would hardly allow the R.R.F. to use weaponry which the Federation has banned as inhumane.
(Gameplay Vs. Story note: The cloaking devices usable by the Federation prior to the Delta alliance all come with ships that used them in the shows, namely the Defiant, and the Galaxy-X from "All Good Things". This is mainly a flavor addition, because you can hardly allow the TOS Connie, and the Excelsior, and the B'rel Retrofit, and not have a Galaxy-X or Defiant with cloak. The Fed player base would have the mother of all tantrums.)
Finally, I will address your assertion that not only are the Lloann'mhrahel and the Nneikha Klling'hann (Or the Federation and the Klingon Empire) our enemies, but can wipe us out independently. This has no real evidence to back it up. Firstly, the Romulan Republic is allied with both, out of a desire to work toward an honorable and hard won peace after nearly 40 years of chaos, and as a measure against common enemies, such as the Iconians, Undine, and Borg. Secondly, the Romulan Republic is equal in power to the Klingons, and likely surpasses them, and is hardly a foe the Federation would attack lightly. Anyone able to read a map will note that the Republic controls more territory than they, controlling all of the Tau Dewa and Psi Velorum sector blocks, except for a slice belonging to the Federation, as well as the Vendor sector of the Alpha Centauri bloack, and soon the Iota Pavonis Block, as the RSE marches its way to defeat and collapse. The Republic also has primary control of the Solanae Dyson Sphere, as well as a partnership in the control of the Jenolan Dyson Sphrere. Additionally, the Romulans, through their alliances, have acquired the use ofr Federation and Klingon Ships and technology, something clearly not reciprocated in most cases.. I would estimate the Republic to be the second most powerful superpower in the alpha and beta quadrants.
Finally, on a related note, I would remind you of the importance of the alliance that our people have entered into. this alliance of the three superpowers of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants is the best chance for real peace in half a century. In fighting an array of common enemies, our peoples have been united in common cause. The desire held by yourself and your small faction of imperialists to perpetuate old enmities is wholly short-sighted, and self defeating. If it is allowed to prevail, it will only lead to the destruction of the Romulan people, and at best will cause us to fade into history as the galaxy passes us by.
Obviously D'Tan cannot speak for all Romulans. He is the legally elected head of state of the Romulan Republic
Elected by WHICH people at WHAT moment under WHICH circumstances?
He was "elected" when the rebellion against the RSE started. I - until now - have not heard (and even less take part in) about ANY election since then. And I have never heard that there were any candidates to choose between (would be a funny election if there is ONE man running). But enlighten me if I am wrong about this point...:D
And I want to add that the "RSE is at war with the Federation" is not very strong argument if you realize the kind of actions the Federation had started. For people who speak about non-aggression etc. they show VERY little respect towards foreign borders, foreign laws and foreign lives...
By the way I am also not so sure if it would be so easy to put a Fed-style cloak on the Defiant (since if that would so easy, why not just doing so AND inform the Romulans about it - if they were ready to buy the other thing...surely Star Fleet did not believe it could hide the fact if they have cloaks from the TS - the best Intel. Service in Alpha and Beta Quadrant). But that it a point, which is in question, that is right.
And I think it sound a little bit naive, this believe in cooperation and peace blabla. Good for stupid Feds, I guess, but many Romulans will disagree. Not only will they hardly forget the thousands of their brothers and sisters, killed by the Feds and the Klingons. But what is also more than clear - treaties are not made forever, as are alliances. The Klingons changed between war and peace/alliance with the Feds THREE times each in last few centuries. At first we had partly hot and partly cold war. Than peace after Praxis, later an alliance (with some disturbances, I guess). Shortly before Dominium War we had a short but hard fought war (some may claim "it was a BAD Dominion-infiltrator who caused all that", but honestly the brave Klingon warriors were VERY quick to go to war with the Federation - and the Federationwas as fast to kill them). Later again peace and cooperation. Than, surprise, surprise - ANOTHER WAR, which lasted quiet some time and cost both sides a lot. And THAN again peace and cooperation. Does really nobody beside me see a pattern? :rolleyes:
I think many people - including my toon - will say that you (I mean not you in person, but you everyone) must be a fool with your brain blasted off if you believe in lasting peace in our time. Any leader who has just some brain left should be prepared for drastic changes. They may never occur. But better safe, than sorrow. Leaders should not act after their ideology and wishes, but after the interests of their people and their states. And if you look back in the past than being prepared to fight the Federation or the Klingons is highly necessary for the Romulans. Not because this war MUST come. But because it might come. The Romulans could not be reduced of taking only what D'Tans master "allow" him to grab (and for what he pay with the blood of his people). Any coming Romulan government should be free to choose which actions it may take, which alliances it will hold (or end), in which way it will guide the fate of the children of the Raptor. To peace or to war, it is in THEIR hand to decide - not in the hand of a man who was teached by a spy and enemy of the Romulan people. D'Tan do his best to make this freedom of choice impossible, to lay the Romulan future and fate in chains. Perhaps his greates crime.
Many will say, on the day the ships of his so called allies darken the sky over his Faked New Romulus His Royal Madness D'Tan will understand what a fool he was. But than it will be too late...
Your constant harping on the subject of D'tans election is a Red Herring, intended to distract. It is also an example of Petitio Principii AKA Begging the Question. From Wikipedia:
The fallacy of petitio principii, or "begging the question", is committed "when a proposition which requires proof is assumed without proof".
Firther, you are very wrong on that point.
On the contrary, it is stated several times ingame, and in official STO lore that D'tan was elected by the military and Civil leaders who gathed around the Reunification movement afer the destruction of Romulus and the resultant chaos. Additionally, I find it exceedingly humorous that you, a supporter of the Romulan Star Empire, an oppressive autocracy, have the temerity to complain about the elections in a democratic state. To me that is like the leadership of the People's Republic of China whining that the Taiwanese government didn't let them oversee and review their elections. Also, it is highly foolish to assume that new elections would be held only two years after the founding of a new state, just to satisfy the complaints of Imperialists like your self, whose real interest is to muddy the waters and attempt to insert discontent into the Republic in an effort to avoid the triumph of liberty over the tyranny that keeps them in power.
(On an OOC note, in the DS9 episodes Homefront and Paradise Lost, you see the Federation President Jaresh-Inyo. Yet you never see hijm elected? When was he elected? How is he to call himself president with out us seeing an election? THe answer is that he is a fictional character. The producers didn't have time to show him being elected, and the same is true for D'tan.)
Now, your babble about the Republics alliances is another assumption. You ASSUME that they have nothing but happy thoughts about the Klingons and Feds. YOu ASSUME that Si vis pacem, para bellum is an out of fashion statement in the Republic. However, rather than dismissing it, I will rebut it. There are many examples of former enemies joining forces against outside threats and laying the groundwork for lasting peace. The United States and the UK as one example. Despite the hatred and rancor that birthed the US, we normalized relations, cooperated, and now have arguably one of the closest relations between any two nations. Egypt and Israal fought four wars over a period of 26 years, yet for the last 34 have worked together to keep their region stable. Despite the ravages of WWI and WWII, the nations of Europe have largely overcome their old hatreds and arguments.
And here you go, jibber jabbering about D'tan's "master". An "Abusive Ad Hominem" attack. You attempt to invalidate D'Tans arguments and goals by attacking his character and that of his mentors. You assume that simply because Spock (A Vulcan you claim to be a spy and a criminal, and ENEMY of the Romulan people, despite his many efforts on behalf of the Romulan PEOPLE, and his sacrificing himself to stop further destruction) was one of his mentors, you assume that obviously D'tan cares more for the Federations wishes than the welfare of his own people. This despite his claiming of the Jouret Gateway and the Solanae sphere for his people, despite the protests of the Federation representatives. He had to demand, and convince, the Federation to back the founding of the Republic. Hardly something he would have had to do it he were simply founding a puppet state. The Romulan Republic CHOSE to ally itself with the Klingon Empire and the Federation. It CHOSE to make it's own way in the galaxy, guaranteeing freedom for its people rather than oppression and exploitation by an autocratic elite. It CHOSE to make peace with those who desired peace, rather than following the path of tyranny and militarism followed by said elites. D'tan and the government he leads have made it possible for Romulans and Remans to have a choice as to how they are governed.
Once again, I find it humorous to find a supporter of the Romulan Star Empire referring to D'Tan's efforrts towards the freedom of all his people as a crime. Perhaps they are a crime in the RSE, where dissent is ruthlessly expunged by the Tal Shiar, but anywhere else it is nothing of the sort.
Finally, I must giggle at your characterization of the Tal Shiar as the best intelligence service in the Alpha and Beta quadrants. Considering their long history of being bested by Starfleet Intelligence, and Section 31? Their own Chairman from the Dominion War on, Koval, was a Section 31 agent, and they failed to even discover the secret maneuvering that got him onto the Continuing Committee. The likes of Deanna Troi fooled them into believing her to be one of them. And that was before Hobus. Post-Hobus, we have their monumental failure in allying with the Iconians and their mushroom men. Their consistent defeats at the hands of Republic, Starfleet, and KLINGON Inteligence. Seriously? THe best.....:D
On the contrary, it is stated several times ingame, and in official STO lore that D'tan was elected by the military and Civil leaders who gathed around the Reunification movement afer the destruction of Romulus and the resultant chaos.
Well, that is just what others than me had suggested in the past - he was selected by a bunch of rioters, but not by the people he claim to represent. And he was a candidate of those who gather around the reunification-movement. And of course it is only right that my toon - as one who hold a lot from the RSE - mock about that. Because it shows that all this speaking about "democracy" is not much more than a lie (since it looks more like D'Tan was "elected" by leaders who themselves had not much democratic legalization) to justify the rule of a candidate which is in the eyes of most Romulans no man who could be trusted. He is low-born, in the RSE he was a sewer-rat and a criminal, he nether was a war-hero, a gifted administrator, brilliant scientist or whatsoever, and he was far too much influenced by a enemy of the Romulan people.
He is not democratic, and - and that matters even more - even not chosen in a way and out of a background any traditional thinking Romulan could accept. So he has NOTHING which speaks for a justification of his present position. He is as much, or even much more self-proclaimed as Sela, Donatra or Tal'Aura who all were at least skilled and long-serving members of the establishment, not sewer rats who jump forward in the darkest hour of Romulan history.
And it is funny to see how the Republic try to cover this up. Yes, there will be elections, trust me. But not yet, all who speak about are only bad imperialists who want to muddy the water. Let us forget that the people who "elected" D'Tan were a TINY minority of those who now being part of the Republic, and it is hard to believe that they were elected themselves...;)
OOC - well, it is a little bit simple to blame only the producers. You can do it and fill the gaps with your own interpretation - but than I think you must accept that the interpretation from other people may differ, and have the same right to claim to be true...:)
And if you look in history (if you want to ignore that human history is one thing and those of other species another), than there are enough examples in which cooperation worked for a time, but later broke down, by changes in the leadership of this or that land etc. Even former allies have go to war against each other. Italy in the First World War had complete other enemies as in the Second World War, as does Japan (who for example had a war against Russia on the beginning of the 20th century, than was an ally during WWI, than go to some kind of undeclared war with thousands of victims with Soviet-Russia later...).
And of course is Spock a spy and a criminal and a enemy of the Romulan people - from a certain, but for many Romulans obvious point of view. He take deeply part in the actions of the Enterprise under Kirk (he was, more or less, somehow the brains of the bridge, some people would say). So he is of course involved in any actions (both those we could seen on screen and those who may had happened beyond that in the fictional years of the ships duty) against the Fleet of the RSE. He also take part (and a important) in the peace-deal between Klingons and Federation, a thing which the Romulans clearly dislike. And he worked with the Reunification-movement, which was banned and seen as criminal by many Romulans. How someone could not understand how obvious that is, is hard to understand... his so called sacrifice is something which is not so much known (and since there is no result it is hard to proof...and the fact that the Vulcans at least know some of the risks of Hobus but did not tell it...)
And of course D'Tan cares more for the Fed and Klingon wishes. He send his men on their ships to fight their wars (a long time even against each other). He send his men in needles actions against the Breen, against the Dominion or the Borg in areas were no Romulan interests were harmed, against ENDLESS numbers of enemies in the Delta Quadrant which in most cases would never harm Romulans, let them fight and die for people no Romulan would ever care about (beside you could convince me that Nelix bunch of refugees or some eco-separatists did matter in any way for the Romulans). This battles must cost lives and ships, and in the same time he do little to end the conflict with the RSE by negotiation (he even have let slip one good chance away to at least TRY do achieve something - and may continue to do so with the next chance).
About the characterisation of the TS, well, I think if you would look in several Star Trek Wiki that will end your giggle. But I know, facts are nothing what matter... They all are wrong, sure...
Well, that is just what others than me had suggested in the past - he was selected by a bunch of rioters,
I quit reading when I got to this. I can't take any of what you say even half seriously when you start off with a line like this. Please do explain how you came to this conclusion...
This battles must cost lives and ships, and in the same time he do little to end the conflict with the RSE by negotiation (he even have let slip one good chance away to at least TRY do achieve something - and may continue to do so with the next chance).
Negotiate with what?
The Romulan Star Empire is dead. All that is left is squabbling warlords fighting over the scraps and an Iconian puppet terrorist organization.
About the characterisation of the TS, well, I think if you would look in several Star Trek Wiki that will end your giggle. But I know, facts are nothing what matter... They all are wrong, sure...
They got manipulated into sending an significant investment of man power and equipment into a trap on an unsanctioned mission by an enemy infiltrator which got them annihilated, and the only reason they didn't end up like the Obsidian Order (i.e. defunct) was because they likely the majority of the stuff they sent was the regular military so they could stay and hide while everyone else died.
and again during the Dominion War they were kind of on the Federation payroll.
I quit reading when I got to this. I can't take any of what you say even half seriously when you start off with a line like this. Please do explain how you came to this conclusion...
You do realize by now, surely, that caedicius is simply engaging in propaganda without concern for the rules of inference or any desire to get at the truth?
He uses weasel words, engages in abusive ad Hominem, Straw Man, Petitio Principii, replies with juvenile retorts which amount to "I know you are, but what am I?", takes isolated comments out of context and uses them as "proof texts," intentionally misinterprets the evidence, and generally spews outrageous lies repeatedly in an effort to convince by redundancy.
I personally know several good people who used to frequent this forum and make useful contributions who refuse to engage with the forum anymore because of the refusal of certain imperialists to admit defeat when they have been repeatedly shown to be wrong by multiple participants. I refuse to stop countering them, because I don't want them to be the only voice in the Romulan Gameplay forum, but I too had to take a break over the summer, because I was, frankly, nauseated by the sheer intransigence and incorrigibility of three of these imperialists (one of whom, thanks be to The Mother, hasn't posted in this forum in several months, or at least not that I've noticed). The two remaining annoyances will seldom get replies from me in which I engage with them directly (I'm more likely to quote them and talk to the audience about what they have said than to speak directly to them), because they have clearly demonstrated that they will not pay attention, but instead spew more of the same nonsense they have been spewing for months, imagining themselves to be clever or witty by their failure to even use Rhetoric correctly, let alone Logic.
Caedicius, first, stop referring to "many Romulans", or "most Romulans". You do not speak for "many Romulans", much less for "most Romulans, and certainly not for "all Romulans". You have as little idea what Romulans think as I do. If my using examples from Earth history is an issue for you because Romulans are different, then your ability to predict how Romulans would thik is just as much an issue. Romulans are a fictional species created by Humans. Their actions in Star Trek, like those of the Klingons, and Vulcans, and Cardassains, et. al., have always been driven by very human reasons.
Second, you seem to have a bug in your butt about Subcommander Khiana's contact with D'Tan. Let me lay it out for you. What she said was that in return for a say in the governance of the Republic, the Tal Shiar would help D'Tan maintain and expand power. Now, as near as I can tell, there are only two reasons for this, and neither of them constitute an olive branch extended by the RSE. First, when D'Tan called her on representing the Tal Shiar, she did not deny it, nor did she correct him and say the RSE. This implies that the Tal Shiar operating in the Republic were rogue, and therefore criminals. The other possibility was that she was attempting to subvert D'Tan and the governments of the Republic, which is also not an attempt to offer a possibility of peace. When she returned, she proposed to Commander Ruul that they replace D'Tan with someone more accommodating to their plans. More proof that they simply wished for another set of strings to pull. And Ruul then proceded to terrorize the civilians on Mol'Rihan. His men attacked and kidnapped civilians in the mountains, and he sent Hirogen to murder civilians elsewhere. The criminal activites of the Tal Shiar continue to stack up.
Third, your characterization of Spock is flawed. Yes, he was a member of Starfleet, and yes, he took part in operations against Romulan interests, because they had decided to oppose the Federation, his own nation. Yet he never harbored any animosity towards the Romulan people. Yes, he aided the Reunification movement, an organization that desired to find out about their distant Vulcan heritage and develop closer ties with their distant cousins (and was declared criminal by an unelected autocratic and fascist goverement and it's secret police, not the Romulan people, because it's philosophy represented a threat to the continued power and control of said government, like the Falun Gong movment in China.). President Truman, and General/President Eisenhower both fought against the Germans in two world wars, yet they held no animosity for the German people, and went to great lengths to help them post-war. Their administrations helped rebuild Germany and bring it back into the world community. They fought against Germany, but can hardly be considered enemies of the German people. General MacArthur lost his entire army to the Japanese. THey marched them to death in the jungles of the Philipines. Yet post-war he did the same for the Japanese, helping them to rebuild and recover from the devastation. Spock worked hard to better relations between the Romulans and the Federation. Yes, he helped arrange peace between the Klingons and Federation, but how does that make him and enemy of the Romulan people? Just because the autocrats didn't like it? Because they could no longer play the Feds and Klingon off against each other? The sacrificed himself to save the Romulan people from greater destruction. I doubt an enemy would do that for those he opposes.
Fourth, I must bring up the prejudice against Remans that you have expressed elsewhere. Racism is never an intelligent policy. And in this case, the birth of the Reman Resistance can be placed directly at the RSE's doorstep. The Tal Shiar created Shinzon as part of a poorly thought through scheme to infiltrate the Federation. When the closed it down, they abandoned him on Remus. There, and later, during the Dominion War, he rose to leadership among the Remans. Then they displayed utter and incredible incompetence by allowing him to be the one to recapture the facility where he was made. His coup was empowered by the technology he found their. His coup woke the Remans up, and showed them they were strong. And now, despite nearly 2000 years of enslavement and prejudice, they are forgiving those Romulans willing to accept them as equals, and extending the hand of friendship and brotherhood to the Republic. The strength of the Reman people now upholds and empowers the Republic and the ideals it stands for, rather than empowering and enriching the elites and propping up the crumbling edifice of the Star Empire, and I'll wager that you are just foaming at the mouth about that.
P.S: So anyone who feels like claiming that the Federation President was not elected can do so if they feel like it, and must be treated as if their opinion holds water, despite it being made clear repeatedly that the President is ELECTED?
P.P.S.: To Solve the election issue you keep bringing up, the Romulan Republic is holding elections. D'Tan is running for reelection. Running against him is your friend Protogoth. Choose wisely.
P.P.S.: To Solve the election issue you keep bringing up, the Romulan Republic is holding elections. D'Tan is running for reelection. Running against him is your friend Protogoth. Choose wisely.
Oh? lol
I must point out that I did not explicitly toss my hat into the ring, but was instead drafted to run by those who are not quite so fond of Reunification -- which is not to say they oppose the idea utterly, but simply that they would like for it to be more clearly expressed than a vague "let's reunify with them" perspective without any specified conditions, and that they might like a different name than "Reunification," such as, perhaps, "Reconciliation." With these considerations in mind, I consent to be a candidate, but I will not campaign against the Proconsul, to whom I am loyal.
I was not made aware the Treaty of Algeron had been broken. That treaty was made with the Romulan Star Empire, which crumbled and splintered into the Tal'Shiar, the Romulan Sad Empire, and the Romulan Republic. The way I see it, the treaty was void and dissolved, and the restrictions on cloaking devices for the Federation robs the Federation of a distinct tactical advantage, as Sisko said about the USS Defiant.
Dreadnought class. Two times the size, three times the speed. Advanced weaponry. Modified for a minimal crew. Unlike most Federation vessels, it's built solely for combat.
ya know what would be awesome... if we could have a few threads that didnt devolve due to caedicius or protogoth or others and their need to make almost all threads about the same damned thing.
it'd also be kinda cool if people didnt just randomly post in a thread and say the same things that have been said on the first 3 or so pages but I know reading is too hard for 99% of forum users
Comments
And the treaty was not only for the benefit of the Roms but also the KDF. And of course some kind of kind gesture towards the RSE may also be wise, if the Fed want peace (as theiy claim). In that way they angered both enemies and friends...
A bad SpoonFed with a Rihannsu-style cloaking ability is still a bad SpoonFed. Dev Team has consistently raided tlh'Ingan special items/abilities for years to satisfy the cravings of the SpoonFed portion of the playerbase. Which is the larger part because most people do not have the talent to play tlh'Ingan or Rihannsu effectively. Or they are too lazy to click more than one button at a time.
Now why would the Devs do this?
1) Profit.
2) All the really good ideas got sent to the tlh'Ingan faction and later the Rihannsu half faction.
Rather than dig into the rich history and traditions of Starfleet innovations and come with something unique for the SpoonFeds, it requires far less care, effort and work to simply copy/paste something which all the SpoonFeds want anyways. And when the SpoonFeds are given something unique to them, they ignore it or claim it isn't any good. As an example, How many Vestas did you see swanning about the last time you were ingame? And of those Vestas, how many were simply light carriers rather than full on Science vessels? How many Steamrunners have you seen lately? How many SpoonFeds will be lined up to grab this year's Nanopulse Bat'leth? When was the last time in the Battle Zone anyone saw a SpoonFed running StarFleet issue equipment?
So, OP, the way I see it, give everything to the SpoonFeds. All of it. Every. Last. Item. Most of the SpoonFeds won't know how to use whatever they're given effectively anyways and they'll be bored with it five seconds after the next new shiny comes out.
:P
@Liath | My PRIMUS Page | Altaholics | New Vehicle Models | New Emblems | Flag Tights
Asterelle's Forum Enhancement Extension | Game Side Panel Add-In* | Game Server Status Add-In
*Updated to work on Embedded/Non embedded forums post August 2015 Changes
In case you are unaware, the Federation has long had the capability to make a cloaking device. They stole one and successfully used it in "The Enterprise Incident". THey also developed the Phase Cloak, as shown in the TNG episode "The Pegasus", and in DS9, they made Cloaking devices to fit to the minefield without Romulan aid. Their capacity to make a cloak is established. THe only reason they did is because they kept to the terms of the Treaty of Algeron.
Your other premise, that if D'tan traded cloaking technology for aid, he is a traitor, is flawed. The RSE did the same thing. THey traded cloaking technology to the Klingons in the mid 23rd century for Klingon weapons technology, and for a supply of D7 class battlecruisers. YOur beloved Star Empire is in the same basket.
Another thing to consider is gameplay and story segregation. I have noted, and assume you have, that NPC Defiants and Galaxy-Xs are never seen using Cloaking devices. The only reason that they are available is because the original Defiant in DS9, and the Enterprise in All Good Things, had them. Remember that this is the game where you can fly a TOS Constitution or an NX. If they didn't have them, then the Feddie Bears would throw a temper tantrum.
Wasn't the treaty with the Romulan People & Senate? That world, senate and people don't exist anymore.
Blame JJ.
The RSE might have shot fed ships sent to help refugees, right after the homeworlds destruction, but considering it was a total mess back then, the ships were actually intruding in RSE territories, and most of the destruction was from Nero, a rogue Romulan, I wouldn't consider that starting a war. And it was decades ago.
In the path to 2409, it says the current fed President renewed the Treaty of Algernon.
But hey, cloak sells. Players asked for fed cloak for a while. Cryptic gave them a cloak. It's not unexpected. That's like asking the ferengi to watch over the deal...
Technically speaking 'pre-emptive strike' was ordered (if I recall correct) by rogue SF Admiral who turned out to be Undine infiltrator. So technically it's same type of situation as with Nero.
We can't speak about breaking the treaty because one of the signatures do not exist anymore and didn't left any legal successor. After destruction of Romulus we had at least three self claiming New RSE, but non of them were legally chosen government, so in the view of law non of them were successor for RSE. RR and D'Tan from the beginning were saying that they are new country, they even went and found new homeworld out of official RSE territory.
This here is the biggest problem, IMHO. From the very beginning STO never actually tried to explore the technology and playstyle one would associate with the UFP. Instead, all warfighter battleships, miniguns and plasma grenades were the way to go and to this very day they insist on continuing the trend.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Signed Fleet Admiral Kinisho , Starfleet Command
No, it does not. It explicitly says that in the strict legal sense, the Treaty is no more.
Also note that the Treaty was with the RSE.
The RR is a separate political entity that existed at the same time as the RSE.
The RSE began overt hostilities with the RR when the RR sought recognition from the Klingons and Federation.
Ill just quote myself since yall ignored it.
Real join date September 2012
fixed that up a bit for ya
I think it is incorrect to treat the actions of the RSE during their alliance with the Klingons in the same way as D'Tans acttion. First and above all, D'Tan is not the legal ruler of all Romulans (you could also much argue about the question how legal his claim of leadership about the Republic is). So he of course has much less the right to do anything what many have influence to the fate of all Romulans.
Second of course the terms and circumstances are different. When the RSE changed tech with the Klingons they got a major boost in technology and weapons/ships - and they did so to counter the threat of an already strong Federation. It was a calculated action to strengthen an ally (and yourself) to counter a common foe. After that action the Klingon Empire and the RSE were able to stand firm against the Federation, and even seperated they were quiet a foe which must be recognized by the Feds. When D'Tan gave away tech and the service of ships and men/women he strengthen potential rivals which were at that time already much stronger than the Romulans (and BOTH had commited several acts of aggression and even crimes against Romulan people just short time ago). So he got much less and under curcumstances he could much, much less keep under control. He strengthen potential rivals which already were strong enough to wipe him out - risking to loose some of the few things the Romulan forces had as advantage...
You are correct that the Federation had indeed access zu cloak-technology before - but why did they need the Romulans to get her Defiant ship cloaked if they were so "good" with that kind of stuff? Even if you steal technolgy from your rivals, it mean not that you could handle and develope it further in the same way as they could, perhaps just because you put much less ressources in that kind of research. And sch disadvantages are not so easy to wipe out. Just some years behind your rival could mean a lot.
General and to all
What make me wonder is that this "argument" that the RSE is gone and the Fed are no longer bound (if they not choose to do so) is used in such a biased way. If someone argue in that way it should be obvious that the heirs of the RSE are ALSO not bound to any other treaty - including those who might ban certain weapons etc. But surely in the moment when that happens some people will cry out loud... *g*
Defiant need Romulans is because of the treaty. " The treaty also expressly prohibited the development or use of cloaking device technology by the Federation. "
prohibited the development or use of cloaking device technology
prohibited the development or use of cloaking device technology
prohibited the development or use of cloaking device technology
prohibited the development or use of cloaking device technology
If the feddies use cloaked ship, then the Romulans will be all over them. Beside the feddies already have more advanced phase-cloaks, normal cloak wont be a problem for feddies anyway.
Hell it is a miracle that UFP havent become the dominating Power of alpha and beta quadrant consider what happend:
RSE shattered and broken.
Klingons need 10 years to rebuild their strength from the losses at Dominon war, not to mention Picard is Martoks Arbiter of succession and have influence to "borrow" Three Kvorts BoP.
Ferengis grand Nagus Rom is pro-fed and have a son in starfleet Academy.
Cardassia prime got slaugthered by Jemhadar, the Union probably signed som very disadvantageous treties becaause they were at Dominions side for so long(japan lost WW2 and were forced to sign disadvantageous treties, they dont even have a real military now.)
Voyager brought some Borg Tech home and two borg tech expert(Acheb and 7of9), and Voyager had alot of progress in quantum slipstream too
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
If we speak how it really techniclaly should work then:
1) D'Tan and Republic never usurp that their are RSE successors. Contrary from very beginning they said Republic is completely new political structure having nothing in common with scattered RSE.
2) As non of New RSEs in a legally chosen government, all were crated by usurpers, technically non of FED-RSE treaties is in force. Yes that also means those which ban Romulans from using some types of weapons. But as those New RSEs want to be saw as heirs to RSE they will keep to then just to make themselves look good.
Obviously D'Tan cannot speak for all Romulans. He is the legally elected head of state of the Romulan Republic, while many of our Sisters and brothers yet live under the Imperial yoke. However, as head of state of the Romulan Republic, he is fully entitled to conduct negotiations, such as exchanges of technology, with other states. Since the Republic has cloaking technology, it is well within it's rights as a sovereign state to trade that technology for other technologies or aid it desires. :P
You are also correct about the circumstances of the first treaty. The Klingons and Romulans made a fair trade of technology and resources to strengthen each other. And that is what would have happened here, if the Romulans traded cloaking technology. The fact that the Federation is capable of making its own cloaking devices, without Romulan aid, is well established in TNG, DS9, and in Cryptic's Path To 2409. The fact that they have only done so under the auspices of Section 31 so far is due to the Federation's unusual idealism, and now that the Romulan Star Empire is at war with the Federation, the Treaty of Algeron is voided.
The reason that the Defiant "needed" Romulan supervision and aid, was because at that time the treaty was still being enforced, and the Romulans allowed the Federation to operate a cloak for intelligence gathering missions in the Gamma Quadrant, a situation from which they benefited as well. The Federation could readily have produced and installed a phase cloak, such as the one from the USS Pegasus, but did not by choice, preferring to maintain good relations with the Romulans.
You are correct in that the Federation did not develop the cloaking technology stolen in 2268 along the same path as the Romulans. Instead, they developed the Phase cloak, which has its own set of advantages and disadvantages compared to Romulan cloaks. I would venture a guess, that the Republic, by refraining from making a stink about the Treaty of Algeron, gained a concession, such as the right to to use Thalaron weaponry in combat. Note that the Federation and Klingons do not use it, and neither have prevented the Republic from utilizing the weapons. I would postulate that if D'Tan were the puppet of the Federation and the Vulcans that you constantly paint him as, his puppetmasters would hardly allow the R.R.F. to use weaponry which the Federation has banned as inhumane.
(Gameplay Vs. Story note: The cloaking devices usable by the Federation prior to the Delta alliance all come with ships that used them in the shows, namely the Defiant, and the Galaxy-X from "All Good Things". This is mainly a flavor addition, because you can hardly allow the TOS Connie, and the Excelsior, and the B'rel Retrofit, and not have a Galaxy-X or Defiant with cloak. The Fed player base would have the mother of all tantrums.)
Finally, I will address your assertion that not only are the Lloann'mhrahel and the Nneikha Klling'hann (Or the Federation and the Klingon Empire) our enemies, but can wipe us out independently. This has no real evidence to back it up. Firstly, the Romulan Republic is allied with both, out of a desire to work toward an honorable and hard won peace after nearly 40 years of chaos, and as a measure against common enemies, such as the Iconians, Undine, and Borg. Secondly, the Romulan Republic is equal in power to the Klingons, and likely surpasses them, and is hardly a foe the Federation would attack lightly. Anyone able to read a map will note that the Republic controls more territory than they, controlling all of the Tau Dewa and Psi Velorum sector blocks, except for a slice belonging to the Federation, as well as the Vendor sector of the Alpha Centauri bloack, and soon the Iota Pavonis Block, as the RSE marches its way to defeat and collapse. The Republic also has primary control of the Solanae Dyson Sphere, as well as a partnership in the control of the Jenolan Dyson Sphrere. Additionally, the Romulans, through their alliances, have acquired the use ofr Federation and Klingon Ships and technology, something clearly not reciprocated in most cases.. I would estimate the Republic to be the second most powerful superpower in the alpha and beta quadrants.
Finally, on a related note, I would remind you of the importance of the alliance that our people have entered into. this alliance of the three superpowers of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants is the best chance for real peace in half a century. In fighting an array of common enemies, our peoples have been united in common cause. The desire held by yourself and your small faction of imperialists to perpetuate old enmities is wholly short-sighted, and self defeating. If it is allowed to prevail, it will only lead to the destruction of the Romulan people, and at best will cause us to fade into history as the galaxy passes us by.
Elected by WHICH people at WHAT moment under WHICH circumstances?
He was "elected" when the rebellion against the RSE started. I - until now - have not heard (and even less take part in) about ANY election since then. And I have never heard that there were any candidates to choose between (would be a funny election if there is ONE man running). But enlighten me if I am wrong about this point...:D
And I want to add that the "RSE is at war with the Federation" is not very strong argument if you realize the kind of actions the Federation had started. For people who speak about non-aggression etc. they show VERY little respect towards foreign borders, foreign laws and foreign lives...
By the way I am also not so sure if it would be so easy to put a Fed-style cloak on the Defiant (since if that would so easy, why not just doing so AND inform the Romulans about it - if they were ready to buy the other thing...surely Star Fleet did not believe it could hide the fact if they have cloaks from the TS - the best Intel. Service in Alpha and Beta Quadrant). But that it a point, which is in question, that is right.
And I think it sound a little bit naive, this believe in cooperation and peace blabla. Good for stupid Feds, I guess, but many Romulans will disagree. Not only will they hardly forget the thousands of their brothers and sisters, killed by the Feds and the Klingons. But what is also more than clear - treaties are not made forever, as are alliances. The Klingons changed between war and peace/alliance with the Feds THREE times each in last few centuries. At first we had partly hot and partly cold war. Than peace after Praxis, later an alliance (with some disturbances, I guess). Shortly before Dominium War we had a short but hard fought war (some may claim "it was a BAD Dominion-infiltrator who caused all that", but honestly the brave Klingon warriors were VERY quick to go to war with the Federation - and the Federationwas as fast to kill them). Later again peace and cooperation. Than, surprise, surprise - ANOTHER WAR, which lasted quiet some time and cost both sides a lot. And THAN again peace and cooperation. Does really nobody beside me see a pattern? :rolleyes:
I think many people - including my toon - will say that you (I mean not you in person, but you everyone) must be a fool with your brain blasted off if you believe in lasting peace in our time. Any leader who has just some brain left should be prepared for drastic changes. They may never occur. But better safe, than sorrow. Leaders should not act after their ideology and wishes, but after the interests of their people and their states. And if you look back in the past than being prepared to fight the Federation or the Klingons is highly necessary for the Romulans. Not because this war MUST come. But because it might come. The Romulans could not be reduced of taking only what D'Tans master "allow" him to grab (and for what he pay with the blood of his people). Any coming Romulan government should be free to choose which actions it may take, which alliances it will hold (or end), in which way it will guide the fate of the children of the Raptor. To peace or to war, it is in THEIR hand to decide - not in the hand of a man who was teached by a spy and enemy of the Romulan people. D'Tan do his best to make this freedom of choice impossible, to lay the Romulan future and fate in chains. Perhaps his greates crime.
Many will say, on the day the ships of his so called allies darken the sky over his Faked New Romulus His Royal Madness D'Tan will understand what a fool he was. But than it will be too late...
Your constant harping on the subject of D'tans election is a Red Herring, intended to distract. It is also an example of Petitio Principii AKA Begging the Question. From Wikipedia:
The fallacy of petitio principii, or "begging the question", is committed "when a proposition which requires proof is assumed without proof".
Firther, you are very wrong on that point.
On the contrary, it is stated several times ingame, and in official STO lore that D'tan was elected by the military and Civil leaders who gathed around the Reunification movement afer the destruction of Romulus and the resultant chaos. Additionally, I find it exceedingly humorous that you, a supporter of the Romulan Star Empire, an oppressive autocracy, have the temerity to complain about the elections in a democratic state. To me that is like the leadership of the People's Republic of China whining that the Taiwanese government didn't let them oversee and review their elections. Also, it is highly foolish to assume that new elections would be held only two years after the founding of a new state, just to satisfy the complaints of Imperialists like your self, whose real interest is to muddy the waters and attempt to insert discontent into the Republic in an effort to avoid the triumph of liberty over the tyranny that keeps them in power.
(On an OOC note, in the DS9 episodes Homefront and Paradise Lost, you see the Federation President Jaresh-Inyo. Yet you never see hijm elected? When was he elected? How is he to call himself president with out us seeing an election? THe answer is that he is a fictional character. The producers didn't have time to show him being elected, and the same is true for D'tan.)
Now, your babble about the Republics alliances is another assumption. You ASSUME that they have nothing but happy thoughts about the Klingons and Feds. YOu ASSUME that Si vis pacem, para bellum is an out of fashion statement in the Republic. However, rather than dismissing it, I will rebut it. There are many examples of former enemies joining forces against outside threats and laying the groundwork for lasting peace. The United States and the UK as one example. Despite the hatred and rancor that birthed the US, we normalized relations, cooperated, and now have arguably one of the closest relations between any two nations. Egypt and Israal fought four wars over a period of 26 years, yet for the last 34 have worked together to keep their region stable. Despite the ravages of WWI and WWII, the nations of Europe have largely overcome their old hatreds and arguments.
And here you go, jibber jabbering about D'tan's "master". An "Abusive Ad Hominem" attack. You attempt to invalidate D'Tans arguments and goals by attacking his character and that of his mentors. You assume that simply because Spock (A Vulcan you claim to be a spy and a criminal, and ENEMY of the Romulan people, despite his many efforts on behalf of the Romulan PEOPLE, and his sacrificing himself to stop further destruction) was one of his mentors, you assume that obviously D'tan cares more for the Federations wishes than the welfare of his own people. This despite his claiming of the Jouret Gateway and the Solanae sphere for his people, despite the protests of the Federation representatives. He had to demand, and convince, the Federation to back the founding of the Republic. Hardly something he would have had to do it he were simply founding a puppet state. The Romulan Republic CHOSE to ally itself with the Klingon Empire and the Federation. It CHOSE to make it's own way in the galaxy, guaranteeing freedom for its people rather than oppression and exploitation by an autocratic elite. It CHOSE to make peace with those who desired peace, rather than following the path of tyranny and militarism followed by said elites. D'tan and the government he leads have made it possible for Romulans and Remans to have a choice as to how they are governed.
Once again, I find it humorous to find a supporter of the Romulan Star Empire referring to D'Tan's efforrts towards the freedom of all his people as a crime. Perhaps they are a crime in the RSE, where dissent is ruthlessly expunged by the Tal Shiar, but anywhere else it is nothing of the sort.
Finally, I must giggle at your characterization of the Tal Shiar as the best intelligence service in the Alpha and Beta quadrants. Considering their long history of being bested by Starfleet Intelligence, and Section 31? Their own Chairman from the Dominion War on, Koval, was a Section 31 agent, and they failed to even discover the secret maneuvering that got him onto the Continuing Committee. The likes of Deanna Troi fooled them into believing her to be one of them. And that was before Hobus. Post-Hobus, we have their monumental failure in allying with the Iconians and their mushroom men. Their consistent defeats at the hands of Republic, Starfleet, and KLINGON Inteligence. Seriously? THe best.....:D
Well, that is just what others than me had suggested in the past - he was selected by a bunch of rioters, but not by the people he claim to represent. And he was a candidate of those who gather around the reunification-movement. And of course it is only right that my toon - as one who hold a lot from the RSE - mock about that. Because it shows that all this speaking about "democracy" is not much more than a lie (since it looks more like D'Tan was "elected" by leaders who themselves had not much democratic legalization) to justify the rule of a candidate which is in the eyes of most Romulans no man who could be trusted. He is low-born, in the RSE he was a sewer-rat and a criminal, he nether was a war-hero, a gifted administrator, brilliant scientist or whatsoever, and he was far too much influenced by a enemy of the Romulan people.
He is not democratic, and - and that matters even more - even not chosen in a way and out of a background any traditional thinking Romulan could accept. So he has NOTHING which speaks for a justification of his present position. He is as much, or even much more self-proclaimed as Sela, Donatra or Tal'Aura who all were at least skilled and long-serving members of the establishment, not sewer rats who jump forward in the darkest hour of Romulan history.
And it is funny to see how the Republic try to cover this up. Yes, there will be elections, trust me. But not yet, all who speak about are only bad imperialists who want to muddy the water. Let us forget that the people who "elected" D'Tan were a TINY minority of those who now being part of the Republic, and it is hard to believe that they were elected themselves...;)
OOC - well, it is a little bit simple to blame only the producers. You can do it and fill the gaps with your own interpretation - but than I think you must accept that the interpretation from other people may differ, and have the same right to claim to be true...:)
And if you look in history (if you want to ignore that human history is one thing and those of other species another), than there are enough examples in which cooperation worked for a time, but later broke down, by changes in the leadership of this or that land etc. Even former allies have go to war against each other. Italy in the First World War had complete other enemies as in the Second World War, as does Japan (who for example had a war against Russia on the beginning of the 20th century, than was an ally during WWI, than go to some kind of undeclared war with thousands of victims with Soviet-Russia later...).
And of course is Spock a spy and a criminal and a enemy of the Romulan people - from a certain, but for many Romulans obvious point of view. He take deeply part in the actions of the Enterprise under Kirk (he was, more or less, somehow the brains of the bridge, some people would say). So he is of course involved in any actions (both those we could seen on screen and those who may had happened beyond that in the fictional years of the ships duty) against the Fleet of the RSE. He also take part (and a important) in the peace-deal between Klingons and Federation, a thing which the Romulans clearly dislike. And he worked with the Reunification-movement, which was banned and seen as criminal by many Romulans. How someone could not understand how obvious that is, is hard to understand... his so called sacrifice is something which is not so much known (and since there is no result it is hard to proof...and the fact that the Vulcans at least know some of the risks of Hobus but did not tell it...)
And of course D'Tan cares more for the Fed and Klingon wishes. He send his men on their ships to fight their wars (a long time even against each other). He send his men in needles actions against the Breen, against the Dominion or the Borg in areas were no Romulan interests were harmed, against ENDLESS numbers of enemies in the Delta Quadrant which in most cases would never harm Romulans, let them fight and die for people no Romulan would ever care about (beside you could convince me that Nelix bunch of refugees or some eco-separatists did matter in any way for the Romulans). This battles must cost lives and ships, and in the same time he do little to end the conflict with the RSE by negotiation (he even have let slip one good chance away to at least TRY do achieve something - and may continue to do so with the next chance).
About the characterisation of the TS, well, I think if you would look in several Star Trek Wiki that will end your giggle. But I know, facts are nothing what matter... They all are wrong, sure...
My character Tsin'xing
Negotiate with what?
The Romulan Star Empire is dead. All that is left is squabbling warlords fighting over the scraps and an Iconian puppet terrorist organization.
They got manipulated into sending an significant investment of man power and equipment into a trap on an unsanctioned mission by an enemy infiltrator which got them annihilated, and the only reason they didn't end up like the Obsidian Order (i.e. defunct) was because they likely the majority of the stuff they sent was the regular military so they could stay and hide while everyone else died.
and again during the Dominion War they were kind of on the Federation payroll.
You do realize by now, surely, that caedicius is simply engaging in propaganda without concern for the rules of inference or any desire to get at the truth?
He uses weasel words, engages in abusive ad Hominem, Straw Man, Petitio Principii, replies with juvenile retorts which amount to "I know you are, but what am I?", takes isolated comments out of context and uses them as "proof texts," intentionally misinterprets the evidence, and generally spews outrageous lies repeatedly in an effort to convince by redundancy.
I personally know several good people who used to frequent this forum and make useful contributions who refuse to engage with the forum anymore because of the refusal of certain imperialists to admit defeat when they have been repeatedly shown to be wrong by multiple participants. I refuse to stop countering them, because I don't want them to be the only voice in the Romulan Gameplay forum, but I too had to take a break over the summer, because I was, frankly, nauseated by the sheer intransigence and incorrigibility of three of these imperialists (one of whom, thanks be to The Mother, hasn't posted in this forum in several months, or at least not that I've noticed). The two remaining annoyances will seldom get replies from me in which I engage with them directly (I'm more likely to quote them and talk to the audience about what they have said than to speak directly to them), because they have clearly demonstrated that they will not pay attention, but instead spew more of the same nonsense they have been spewing for months, imagining themselves to be clever or witty by their failure to even use Rhetoric correctly, let alone Logic.
Second, you seem to have a bug in your butt about Subcommander Khiana's contact with D'Tan. Let me lay it out for you. What she said was that in return for a say in the governance of the Republic, the Tal Shiar would help D'Tan maintain and expand power. Now, as near as I can tell, there are only two reasons for this, and neither of them constitute an olive branch extended by the RSE. First, when D'Tan called her on representing the Tal Shiar, she did not deny it, nor did she correct him and say the RSE. This implies that the Tal Shiar operating in the Republic were rogue, and therefore criminals. The other possibility was that she was attempting to subvert D'Tan and the governments of the Republic, which is also not an attempt to offer a possibility of peace. When she returned, she proposed to Commander Ruul that they replace D'Tan with someone more accommodating to their plans. More proof that they simply wished for another set of strings to pull. And Ruul then proceded to terrorize the civilians on Mol'Rihan. His men attacked and kidnapped civilians in the mountains, and he sent Hirogen to murder civilians elsewhere. The criminal activites of the Tal Shiar continue to stack up.
Third, your characterization of Spock is flawed. Yes, he was a member of Starfleet, and yes, he took part in operations against Romulan interests, because they had decided to oppose the Federation, his own nation. Yet he never harbored any animosity towards the Romulan people. Yes, he aided the Reunification movement, an organization that desired to find out about their distant Vulcan heritage and develop closer ties with their distant cousins (and was declared criminal by an unelected autocratic and fascist goverement and it's secret police, not the Romulan people, because it's philosophy represented a threat to the continued power and control of said government, like the Falun Gong movment in China.). President Truman, and General/President Eisenhower both fought against the Germans in two world wars, yet they held no animosity for the German people, and went to great lengths to help them post-war. Their administrations helped rebuild Germany and bring it back into the world community. They fought against Germany, but can hardly be considered enemies of the German people. General MacArthur lost his entire army to the Japanese. THey marched them to death in the jungles of the Philipines. Yet post-war he did the same for the Japanese, helping them to rebuild and recover from the devastation. Spock worked hard to better relations between the Romulans and the Federation. Yes, he helped arrange peace between the Klingons and Federation, but how does that make him and enemy of the Romulan people? Just because the autocrats didn't like it? Because they could no longer play the Feds and Klingon off against each other? The sacrificed himself to save the Romulan people from greater destruction. I doubt an enemy would do that for those he opposes.
Fourth, I must bring up the prejudice against Remans that you have expressed elsewhere. Racism is never an intelligent policy. And in this case, the birth of the Reman Resistance can be placed directly at the RSE's doorstep. The Tal Shiar created Shinzon as part of a poorly thought through scheme to infiltrate the Federation. When the closed it down, they abandoned him on Remus. There, and later, during the Dominion War, he rose to leadership among the Remans. Then they displayed utter and incredible incompetence by allowing him to be the one to recapture the facility where he was made. His coup was empowered by the technology he found their. His coup woke the Remans up, and showed them they were strong. And now, despite nearly 2000 years of enslavement and prejudice, they are forgiving those Romulans willing to accept them as equals, and extending the hand of friendship and brotherhood to the Republic. The strength of the Reman people now upholds and empowers the Republic and the ideals it stands for, rather than empowering and enriching the elites and propping up the crumbling edifice of the Star Empire, and I'll wager that you are just foaming at the mouth about that.
P.S: So anyone who feels like claiming that the Federation President was not elected can do so if they feel like it, and must be treated as if their opinion holds water, despite it being made clear repeatedly that the President is ELECTED?
P.P.S.: To Solve the election issue you keep bringing up, the Romulan Republic is holding elections. D'Tan is running for reelection. Running against him is your friend Protogoth. Choose wisely.
Oh? lol
I must point out that I did not explicitly toss my hat into the ring, but was instead drafted to run by those who are not quite so fond of Reunification -- which is not to say they oppose the idea utterly, but simply that they would like for it to be more clearly expressed than a vague "let's reunify with them" perspective without any specified conditions, and that they might like a different name than "Reunification," such as, perhaps, "Reconciliation." With these considerations in mind, I consent to be a candidate, but I will not campaign against the Proconsul, to whom I am loyal.
Dreadnought class. Two times the size, three times the speed. Advanced weaponry. Modified for a minimal crew. Unlike most Federation vessels, it's built solely for combat.
it'd also be kinda cool if people didnt just randomly post in a thread and say the same things that have been said on the first 3 or so pages but I know reading is too hard for 99% of forum users