There IS a difference. IIRC the B'Rel cloak can't be activated in red-alert. (All Romulan cloaks can.)
all battle cloaks can be activated during red alert, hence the 'battle' part, and the b'rel retro has an enhanced battle cloak same as the t'varo and now this new romulan ship
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
hartzilla: Sure you know that your crying about the bad bad Star Empire is wrong. It was a few individuals in the Star Empire who had something to do with the supernova, not more. The RSE as such had not much to do with that, it was a sole decision even secret inside the higher ranks of the Empire/ TS (and even fewer of them did know the real risk and go on with that, more from the few who had to do with the thing were simply uninformed or betrayed). Or would you say all Remans should be punsihed because one of their leaders used a weapon of mass destruction?
Back to the general subject of discussion, from a players perspektive I am not so sure if that all is a good idea. It minimize the diffrence between the fractions and so minimize the reason to play diffrent fractions. It is in any game so that people want to have the cool stuff they could not have because of their choice which side/ class/ whatsoever they play, but it not in any case went well if they got it.
Can we go to war with the UFP Now? Or at least use it to push for concessions? Maybe unilateral action by RR and KDF against the UFP? We could use more worlds I think. :P
ooc:
to say nothing of the blatant fed bias that the devs continue to revel in. >.<
out of curiosity.... where does it say that Fed's created the cloaking devices in those ships?
They could have been loaned from their new Romulan or KDF friends, thereby not breaking the treaty, much like the defiant's cloak didnt break the treaty.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,564Community Moderator
edited September 2014
The Treaty probably went belly up when Sela went MIA. The Tal Shiar pretty much rules the Star Empire now, and has engaged in terrorist actions.
If someone says that the Treaty is still in effect because of the Republic... the Republic didn't sign the Treaty as it didn't exist back then. There could also be some kind of Tech exchange with the Republic or something.
Also... you guys kinda forgot that there's already 3 other ships with cloak capability: Defiant Retrofit, Galaxy-X, and Avenger.
I guess the real question is... what is the status of the Treaty after Sela went MIA and the Tal Shiar took over?
out of curiosity.... where does it say that Fed's created the cloaking devices in those ships?
They could have been loaned from their new Romulan or KDF friends, thereby not breaking the treaty, much like the defiant's cloak didnt break the treaty.
since some like the above poster seemed to miss my 2nd post in this thread:
not as much rp as I would have liked but still. Certainly lively.
Im well aware craptic has long since given up on lore or even good game design(T-Rex with laz0rz!) but really if they're gonna **** a treaty they bothered to both mention AND uphold in their own fiction. They should at least come up with a hamfisted RP to explain sodomizing it quite this blatantly
now as caedicius pointed out... giving cloaks to feds just further skews things in the game. How many of you joined STO to play generic scifi? The developer fed bias is already absurd enough, add on their 'white hats only' philosophy and we have some issues already. This forum is constantly buzzing with people that want the Fed-lite Republic gone. Now we have feds with cloaks, which we know will be expanded upon because MONEY!!! The consoles were ok because they represented (what was supposed to be) a few isolated cases. We need MORE diversity between factions(fractions) not less. Section 31 is supposed to be the dark underbelly, unseen and unheard, not trumpeting the UFP's return to the Delta Quadrant with their own butt ugly ninja ships.
TRIBBLE it *steals a time ship* I'm restoring Romulus
Section 31 is supposed to be the dark underbelly, unseen and unheard, not trumpeting the UFP's return to the Delta Quadrant with their own butt ugly ninja ships.
Starfleet intelligence is not section 31. these new ships are designed by starfleet intelligence to do things without announcing "We are starfleet" hence the 'doesnt look like a starfleet ship' theme to them. The "Intelligence class" part should prove that. after all, you think the rom's ship was made by the Tal Shiar? as thats the section 31 equivalent for roms.
Section 31 would just build big assed ships with lots and lots of guns (see uss Vengeance as reference.)
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
yeah not the same organization but you're delusional if you think that Section 31 doesn't basically own Starfleet Intelligence. Consider everything Sec31 does just in game, and you're gonna believe they arent the puppet masters of SFI?
yeah not the same organization but you're delusional if you think that Section 31 doesn't basically own Starfleet Intelligence. Consider everything Sec31 does just in game, and you're gonna believe they arent the puppet masters of SFI?
So The Tal Shiar own romulan intellignece?
and dont say its not a valid argument. The Tal Shiar are just as bad, if not worse, than Section 31, therefor if Section 31 run's Starfleet itnellignece, then the Tal Shiar run the romulan intelligence, both imperial and republic.
Section 31's super secret, with only a handful of people knowing about them outside their 'section' i highlky doubt that they have the influence to have every meber of starfleet intelligence in their pockets.
Besides, if section 31 wet about breaking treaties and such doing stuff through starfleet intelligence, it would be noticed a hell of a lot quicker than some random starship captain or crewman doing the same thing.
If starfleet intelligence created a whole series of cloaking hsips based on illegal tech, im pretty sure there would be a massive clean up of such a corrupt department that it would have made intergalactic news on every major world.
so no, im not dillusional, it's obvious you are in thinking that a super secret orginazation would beable to commender a branch of starfleet with tens of thousands of agents who would most likely have the same morals as those who oppose section 31.
the bulk of the romulan republic have no desire or are even in the position to go to war with the feds and technically not even the same government as before. the fact the feds the kdf and the roms are all working together in the alliance suggests relations are improving and this may even be a free technology exchange taking place.
you could argue the treaty stays on place with the remnants of the star empire, but the remaining tal shiar are pretty much already at war with us or at least so openly hostile that the treaty might as well be null and void.
the bulk of the romulan republic have no desire or are even in the position to go to war with the feds and technically not even the same government as before. the fact the feds the kdf and the roms are all working together in the alliance suggests relations are improving and this may even be a free technology exchange taking place.
you could argue the treaty stays on place with the remnants of the star empire, but the remaining tal shiar are pretty much already at war with us or at least so openly hostile that the treaty might as well be null and void.
Dosen't the treaty prohibit the Federation from "Developing" their own cloak... I don't remember anyone ever saying that the treaty prohibited used of cloaks on federation starships without permission from the romulan empire.
If the Romulan republic were to suddenly supply Starfleet with cloaks in exchange for supplies, there would be no problem.
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
and dont say its not a valid argument. The Tal Shiar are just as bad, if not worse, than Section 31, therefor if Section 31 run's Starfleet itnellignece, then the Tal Shiar run the romulan intelligence, both imperial and republic.
Section 31's super secret, with only a handful of people knowing about them outside their 'section' i highlky doubt that they have the influence to have every meber of starfleet intelligence in their pockets.
Besides, if section 31 wet about breaking treaties and such doing stuff through starfleet intelligence, it would be noticed a hell of a lot quicker than some random starship captain or crewman doing the same thing.
If starfleet intelligence created a whole series of cloaking hsips based on illegal tech, im pretty sure there would be a massive clean up of such a corrupt department that it would have made intergalactic news on every major world.
so no, im not dillusional, it's obvious you are in thinking that a super secret orginazation would beable to commender a branch of starfleet with tens of thousands of agents who would most likely have the same morals as those who oppose section 31.
Counter arguments: The Tal Shiar does not give the RR captains orders to carry out. (Unless the captain and crew are undercover) Section 31 does. The Tal Shiar does not have admirals send you on covert missions and admit they are doing Tal Shiar bidding afterward. Star fleet does. T'nae when you are sent to get the 'rogue' officer selling secrets to the Romulans. In fact the only intelligence missions I see that do not have a section 31 leaning are taking on the doomsday device and shuttle infiltrating the vault.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
anazonda:
I could agree, but if the cloaks on Fed ships are from the Republic, than it should mentioned that A LOT of Romulans (and perhaps also Klingons and members of other nations) will have HUGE problems with that. Romulans will see D'Tan as traitor who strengthen a nation with which they were at (cold) war over long time, a conflict in which hundreds and thousands of people on both sides died and much more were wounded. There is no guaranty that the Fed will ever give up the tech they gathered, and as I said using the cloak-technic enhance the abilities of Star Fleet a lot since so more and more of them leran how to fight in such ships (and by this how to fight against other who own it). All but the most naive Vulcan-loving Romulans will at least see the possibility that in the future Star Fleet and the Romulan Fleet (Republican or Imperial) will clash again. So much for the Rom-perspective (and now let us arrest D'Tan *g*)
Klingons and members of other nations who have their own agenda will see that this only strengthen the Federation which is already the greatest Player in Alpha-Quadrant (and in some aspects even beyond) and has sometimes a attitude to ignore it own rules, interaction in foreign afairs. The use of cloak technology was ever a tool for both Klingons and Romulans to have at least SOME kind of "equalizer" which made sure that they have some options beside bowing before the Federation in the case of conflict. With that possibility gone...
And if history had teached a lessen, than that alliances change. The Klingons were at peace (even in alliance) and also at war with the Fed several times in the past two centuries, and it was similar between the Klingons and the Romulans and the Romulans and the Federation. So only a fool - many will say - would easily give away secrets which could not be returned easily.
And to be honest - did we WANT the galaxy to become great lala-land in which all nations (in which players could take part) work together as slightly different members of the same white-hat-bunch against the EVIL outside powers with their black hats? I surely did not want this, and I guess I am not the only one. I would like more conflict between Klingons, Romulans and Federation, not less (what not mean that I want the players to do head-banging, we should be able to decide between character and us as person). It is a little bit boring if there is ever the GREAT EVIL OVERLORD from outside, in the epic fight GOOD VS BAD - not conflicts in which bad and good are more a question of personal point of view.
anazonda:
I could agree, but if the cloaks on Fed ships are from the Republic, than it should mentioned that A LOT of Romulans (and perhaps also Klingons and members of other nations) will have HUGE problems with that. Romulans will see D'Tan as traitor who strengthen a nation with which they were at (cold) war over long time, a conflict in which hundreds and thousands of people on both sides died and much more were wounded. There is no guaranty that the Fed will ever give up the tech they gathered, and as I said using the cloak-technic enhance the abilities of Star Fleet a lot since so more and more of them leran how to fight in such ships (and by this how to fight against other who own it). All but the most naive Vulcan-loving Romulans will at least see the possibility that in the future Star Fleet and the Romulan Fleet (Republican or Imperial) will clash again. So much for the Rom-perspective (and now let us arrest D'Tan *g*)
Klingons and members of other nations who have their own agenda will see that this only strengthen the Federation which is already the greatest Player in Alpha-Quadrant (and in some aspects even beyond) and has sometimes a attitude to ignore it own rules, interaction in foreign afairs. The use of cloak technology was ever a tool for both Klingons and Romulans to have at least SOME kind of "equalizer" which made sure that they have some options beside bowing before the Federation in the case of conflict. With that possibility gone...
And if history had teached a lessen, than that alliances change. The Klingons were at peace (even in alliance) and also at war with the Fed several times in the past two centuries, and it was similar between the Klingons and the Romulans and the Romulans and the Federation. So only a fool - many will say - would easily give away secrets which could not be returned easily.
And to be honest - did we WANT the galaxy to become great lala-land in which all nations (in which players could take part) work together as slightly different members of the same white-hat-bunch against the EVIL outside powers with their black hats? I surely did not want this, and I guess I am not the only one. I would like more conflict between Klingons, Romulans and Federation, not less (what not mean that I want the players to do head-banging, we should be able to decide between character and us as person). It is a little bit boring if there is ever the GREAT EVIL OVERLORD from outside, in the epic fight GOOD VS BAD - not conflicts in which bad and good are more a question of personal point of view.
Unlike the Romulan empire, the Klingons are well aware that the federation won't strike first (unless under orders from a vulcan Admiral), so they will always be in the position to decide when and where first blood is drawn... And they did not have an issue with Starfleet having the cloak on a defiant, dispite getting their butts kicked by it on more than one occasion.
If the republic were the ones building and designing the cloaks, I am fairly sure that they could and would build in backdoors, so that at least the federation cloaks would be a non-issue for them.
The romulan empire on the other hand will be crying about this for sure. BUT, starfleet would insist that they followed the treaty to the letter (and they would be right)... Even IF the Empire decided to make a war issue out of this, they don't stand a chance against the combined Federation, KDF and Republic fleets....
I say bring it...
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
Counter arguments: The Tal Shiar does not give the RR captains orders to carry out. (Unless the captain and crew are undercover) Section 31 does. The Tal Shiar does not have admirals send you on covert missions and admit they are doing Tal Shiar bidding afterward. Star fleet does. T'nae when you are sent to get the 'rogue' officer selling secrets to the Romulans. In fact the only intelligence missions I see that do not have a section 31 leaning are taking on the doomsday device and shuttle infiltrating the vault.
The only non-shared missions are under the cover of night, which you dont find out till the end that T'Par work's for S31, which even T'nae didnt know until you tell her.
Suspect: An elaborate holodeck mission to try and recruit you.
the Devidian series and hearts and minds: not really section 31 missions, though the abandoning of the TPD is a classic 31 move.
Just because section 31 operates inside starfleet intelligence does not mean that every starfleet intelligence officer is a section 31 agent.
I do not believe that this is the point of view all Klingon Admirals share. There are surely several who have a deep hate for the Feds. By the way - even if the Fed did not strike first, with cloak technology the Fed could move their fleets in better positions, break blockades etc. - a bunch of nasty things in times of conflict (let aside the possibility of spying and sabotage).
The Defiant was a ONE ship. I guess we speak about a significant higher number now. They accepted ONE ship during the greatest war of decades (more or less). Hard to believe that it is now so hard that they will accept much more. Plus at that time the relations were most time a little bit more friendly than 2409/10 between Fed-Klingons, I would say.
I think the Treaty fell apart when Sela went MIA and the Tal Shiar became everyone's enemies.
But that's just me.
The in-game lore explicitly states that the Treaty was voided with the destruction of Romulus.
There was an executive order to ban cloaks to appease the RSE and Klingons after that.
If the Treaty had any sort of relevance, the executive order would not have been necessary.
all battle cloaks can be activated during red alert, hence the 'battle' part, and the b'rel retro has an enhanced battle cloak same as the t'varo and now this new romulan ship
Do Klingon cloaks increase turn rate while cloaked? I keep thinking there's some special aspect of Romulan cloaks...
Unlike the Romulan empire, the Klingons are well aware that the federation won't strike first (unless under orders from a vulcan Admiral), so they will always be in the position to decide when and where first blood is drawn... And they did not have an issue with Starfleet having the cloak on a defiant, dispite getting their butts kicked by it on more than one occasion.
I suspect that has a lot to do with the fractured nature of the Klingon Empire... they are somewhat resigned to the fact that they're going to end up fighting cloaking vessels on a par with their own, so Feds with cloaks doesn't make it any worse...
I suspect that has a lot to do with the fractured nature of the Klingon Empire... they are somewhat resigned to the fact that they're going to end up fighting cloaking vessels on a par with their own, so Feds with cloaks doesn't make it any worse...
That and, as a general rule, Klingon pride prevents them from silly things like whining about how the other guy has a bigger stick. They tend to see it more as a challenge to be over come than anything else.
Correct me if I am wrong, but in TOS, doesn't Spock observe that the Romulans started using cloaking technology at the same time as they started buying warships from the Klingons? If so, why is evveryone going on about Romulans being the ultimate cloakmasters?
Do Klingon cloaks increase turn rate while cloaked? I keep thinking there's some special aspect of Romulan cloaks...
they do - at least the battle cloaks do; i don't know about regular klingon cloaks
and the difference between klingon battle cloak and romulan battle cloak is that romulan cloaks get 40% ambush damage instead of 25% and the turn rate and stealth bonuses are slightly higher provided singularity charge is at 0
That and, as a general rule, Klingon pride prevents them from silly things like whining about how the other guy has a bigger stick. They tend to see it more as a challenge to be over come than anything else.
which just goes to show most of the players playing the red faction have no idea how to play a proper klingon, especially those who frequent the forums
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Correct me if I am wrong, but in TOS, doesn't Spock observe that the Romulans started using cloaking technology at the same time as they started buying warships from the Klingons? If so, why is evveryone going on about Romulans being the ultimate cloakmasters?
I don't know what Spock observed, but Memory Alpha implies otherwise.
It also seems that the Klingons don't care as much about proliferation of cloaking technology, as they outfitted the Maquis with a number of the devices.
The only non-shared missions are under the cover of night, which you dont find out till the end that T'Par work's for S31, which even T'nae didnt know until you tell her.
Suspect: An elaborate holodeck mission to try and recruit you.
the Devidian series and hearts and minds: not really section 31 missions, though the abandoning of the TPD is a classic 31 move.
Just because section 31 operates inside starfleet intelligence does not mean that every starfleet intelligence officer is a section 31 agent.
Take a look at that again. The closest 'shadowy' organization the kdf has is the intelligence service under K'men. It gives all of the intel missions for that side period.
But Devidian arc including just the intercept of the Cardy/kdf fleets was assigned by sec 31.
Nimbus shared mission to find stolen thalaron triggers. Sec 31.
The federation has two groups doing intel work. Star Fleet Intelligence and Section 31. and at least in STO Section 31 is the more active branch.
Sec 31 should not have given the orders in Skirnish. That should have SF Command or Intelligence asking for the intercept. Only after the devidians were discovered should sec 31 have gotten interested.
And T'nae's comments at the end of the little mole hunt did not seem to be surprise but a mollifying. "Distasteful but effective" comment. Thus implying that she knew before you were sent. (Personally I think the mole was pretty gutsy. She could easily have been killed by the PCs as they tried to contain the rogue.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Correct me if I am wrong, but in TOS, doesn't Spock observe that the Romulans started using cloaking technology at the same time as they started buying warships from the Klingons? If so, why is evveryone going on about Romulans being the ultimate cloakmasters?
The Romulans are the ultimate cloakmasters because in canon they were among the first races (if not the first )to develop it in the Alpha Quadrant (established in Enterprise; although the Suliban had cloaking technology in that era ,22nd Century, as well ). The Romulans are using the technology for their own Warbirds in Enterprise and the TOS "Balance Of Terror" episode. In the TOS episode "The Enterprise Incident" we see the Romulans are using Klingon D7 battle cruisers equipped with cloaking devices. (In the digitally remastered version of the episode there are also their own Warbirds seen surrounding the Enterprise as well as the D'7s).
It has been more implied than stated in canon how the Klingons got cloaking technology but it is a definite in canon fact that from the timeline of Enterprise to that of the TOS there are no Klingon vessels manned by Klingons equipped with cloaking devices seen until Star Trek 3: The Search For Spock which is also the debut of the Klingon Bird Of Prey
From then through to the Next Generation era we see Klingon vessels equipped with cloaking devices all the time and it has been my understanding that the in canon reason is because when the Romulans started using Klingon ships that was because then in TOS there was a Klingon/ Romulan alliance against the Federation which lead to an exchange of technology. The Romulans got supposedly better Klingon ships at that time and the Klingons got access to cloaking technology.
The Federation has the ability to develop cloaking technology but as established in "The Pegasus" TNG episode it has formally renounced (outside of this game anyway) developing it as the price for peace with the Romulans which is why in the "Defector" and "Unification" episodes Picard wants the assistance or use of Klingon ships (who are now Federation allies) because the Treaty does not apply to the Klingon Empire.
There is still no canon evidence for a Klingon Romulan alliance.
It's entirely possible Klingons developed their cloaks by themselves. Romulans are not the only race with cloaking tec anyway.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I suspect that has a lot to do with the fractured nature of the Klingon Empire... they are somewhat resigned to the fact that they're going to end up fighting cloaking vessels on a par with their own, so Feds with cloaks doesn't make it any worse...
If you were the sole supplier of a cloak for a ally, that might eventually be an enemy... Would you deliver a on-par cloak to them?
No... You wouldn... and neither would the Romulans, and the Klingons aren't dumb... Just numb... They know this too.
Starfleet is 400 years behind on cloaking tech compared with the romulans... 150 compared to the klingons.
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
I figure the RR would feel grateful to the Fed for helping them establish their new home world and would give them cloak technology for their Intell ships since they are on a common mission against a common foe.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Can we go to war with the UFP Now? Or at least use it to push for concessions? Maybe unilateral action by RR and KDF against the UFP? We could use more worlds I think. :P
ooc:
to say nothing of the blatant fed bias that the devs continue to revel in. >.<
Hell, forget the Treaty of Algeron, what about violation of direct orders from the legal commander-in-chief of the Federation military, that being President Okeg? Regardless of treaty obligations, whoever okayed that just opened themselves to a general court-martial.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Back to the general subject of discussion, from a players perspektive I am not so sure if that all is a good idea. It minimize the diffrence between the fractions and so minimize the reason to play diffrent fractions. It is in any game so that people want to have the cool stuff they could not have because of their choice which side/ class/ whatsoever they play, but it not in any case went well if they got it.
out of curiosity.... where does it say that Fed's created the cloaking devices in those ships?
They could have been loaned from their new Romulan or KDF friends, thereby not breaking the treaty, much like the defiant's cloak didnt break the treaty.
If someone says that the Treaty is still in effect because of the Republic... the Republic didn't sign the Treaty as it didn't exist back then. There could also be some kind of Tech exchange with the Republic or something.
Also... you guys kinda forgot that there's already 3 other ships with cloak capability: Defiant Retrofit, Galaxy-X, and Avenger.
I guess the real question is... what is the status of the Treaty after Sela went MIA and the Tal Shiar took over?
since some like the above poster seemed to miss my 2nd post in this thread:
now as caedicius pointed out... giving cloaks to feds just further skews things in the game. How many of you joined STO to play generic scifi? The developer fed bias is already absurd enough, add on their 'white hats only' philosophy and we have some issues already. This forum is constantly buzzing with people that want the Fed-lite Republic gone. Now we have feds with cloaks, which we know will be expanded upon because MONEY!!! The consoles were ok because they represented (what was supposed to be) a few isolated cases. We need MORE diversity between factions(fractions) not less. Section 31 is supposed to be the dark underbelly, unseen and unheard, not trumpeting the UFP's return to the Delta Quadrant with their own butt ugly ninja ships.
TRIBBLE it *steals a time ship* I'm restoring Romulus
But that's just me.
Starfleet intelligence is not section 31. these new ships are designed by starfleet intelligence to do things without announcing "We are starfleet" hence the 'doesnt look like a starfleet ship' theme to them. The "Intelligence class" part should prove that. after all, you think the rom's ship was made by the Tal Shiar? as thats the section 31 equivalent for roms.
Section 31 would just build big assed ships with lots and lots of guns (see uss Vengeance as reference.)
This. But a lot of people don't get that.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
So The Tal Shiar own romulan intellignece?
and dont say its not a valid argument. The Tal Shiar are just as bad, if not worse, than Section 31, therefor if Section 31 run's Starfleet itnellignece, then the Tal Shiar run the romulan intelligence, both imperial and republic.
Section 31's super secret, with only a handful of people knowing about them outside their 'section' i highlky doubt that they have the influence to have every meber of starfleet intelligence in their pockets.
Besides, if section 31 wet about breaking treaties and such doing stuff through starfleet intelligence, it would be noticed a hell of a lot quicker than some random starship captain or crewman doing the same thing.
If starfleet intelligence created a whole series of cloaking hsips based on illegal tech, im pretty sure there would be a massive clean up of such a corrupt department that it would have made intergalactic news on every major world.
so no, im not dillusional, it's obvious you are in thinking that a super secret orginazation would beable to commender a branch of starfleet with tens of thousands of agents who would most likely have the same morals as those who oppose section 31.
the bulk of the romulan republic have no desire or are even in the position to go to war with the feds and technically not even the same government as before. the fact the feds the kdf and the roms are all working together in the alliance suggests relations are improving and this may even be a free technology exchange taking place.
you could argue the treaty stays on place with the remnants of the star empire, but the remaining tal shiar are pretty much already at war with us or at least so openly hostile that the treaty might as well be null and void.
Dosen't the treaty prohibit the Federation from "Developing" their own cloak... I don't remember anyone ever saying that the treaty prohibited used of cloaks on federation starships without permission from the romulan empire.
If the Romulan republic were to suddenly supply Starfleet with cloaks in exchange for supplies, there would be no problem.
Counter arguments: The Tal Shiar does not give the RR captains orders to carry out. (Unless the captain and crew are undercover) Section 31 does. The Tal Shiar does not have admirals send you on covert missions and admit they are doing Tal Shiar bidding afterward. Star fleet does. T'nae when you are sent to get the 'rogue' officer selling secrets to the Romulans. In fact the only intelligence missions I see that do not have a section 31 leaning are taking on the doomsday device and shuttle infiltrating the vault.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I could agree, but if the cloaks on Fed ships are from the Republic, than it should mentioned that A LOT of Romulans (and perhaps also Klingons and members of other nations) will have HUGE problems with that. Romulans will see D'Tan as traitor who strengthen a nation with which they were at (cold) war over long time, a conflict in which hundreds and thousands of people on both sides died and much more were wounded. There is no guaranty that the Fed will ever give up the tech they gathered, and as I said using the cloak-technic enhance the abilities of Star Fleet a lot since so more and more of them leran how to fight in such ships (and by this how to fight against other who own it). All but the most naive Vulcan-loving Romulans will at least see the possibility that in the future Star Fleet and the Romulan Fleet (Republican or Imperial) will clash again. So much for the Rom-perspective (and now let us arrest D'Tan *g*)
Klingons and members of other nations who have their own agenda will see that this only strengthen the Federation which is already the greatest Player in Alpha-Quadrant (and in some aspects even beyond) and has sometimes a attitude to ignore it own rules, interaction in foreign afairs. The use of cloak technology was ever a tool for both Klingons and Romulans to have at least SOME kind of "equalizer" which made sure that they have some options beside bowing before the Federation in the case of conflict. With that possibility gone...
And if history had teached a lessen, than that alliances change. The Klingons were at peace (even in alliance) and also at war with the Fed several times in the past two centuries, and it was similar between the Klingons and the Romulans and the Romulans and the Federation. So only a fool - many will say - would easily give away secrets which could not be returned easily.
And to be honest - did we WANT the galaxy to become great lala-land in which all nations (in which players could take part) work together as slightly different members of the same white-hat-bunch against the EVIL outside powers with their black hats? I surely did not want this, and I guess I am not the only one. I would like more conflict between Klingons, Romulans and Federation, not less (what not mean that I want the players to do head-banging, we should be able to decide between character and us as person). It is a little bit boring if there is ever the GREAT EVIL OVERLORD from outside, in the epic fight GOOD VS BAD - not conflicts in which bad and good are more a question of personal point of view.
Unlike the Romulan empire, the Klingons are well aware that the federation won't strike first (unless under orders from a vulcan Admiral), so they will always be in the position to decide when and where first blood is drawn... And they did not have an issue with Starfleet having the cloak on a defiant, dispite getting their butts kicked by it on more than one occasion.
If the republic were the ones building and designing the cloaks, I am fairly sure that they could and would build in backdoors, so that at least the federation cloaks would be a non-issue for them.
The romulan empire on the other hand will be crying about this for sure. BUT, starfleet would insist that they followed the treaty to the letter (and they would be right)... Even IF the Empire decided to make a war issue out of this, they don't stand a chance against the combined Federation, KDF and Republic fleets....
I say bring it...
The only non-shared missions are under the cover of night, which you dont find out till the end that T'Par work's for S31, which even T'nae didnt know until you tell her.
Suspect: An elaborate holodeck mission to try and recruit you.
the Devidian series and hearts and minds: not really section 31 missions, though the abandoning of the TPD is a classic 31 move.
Just because section 31 operates inside starfleet intelligence does not mean that every starfleet intelligence officer is a section 31 agent.
The Defiant was a ONE ship. I guess we speak about a significant higher number now. They accepted ONE ship during the greatest war of decades (more or less). Hard to believe that it is now so hard that they will accept much more. Plus at that time the relations were most time a little bit more friendly than 2409/10 between Fed-Klingons, I would say.
The in-game lore explicitly states that the Treaty was voided with the destruction of Romulus.
There was an executive order to ban cloaks to appease the RSE and Klingons after that.
If the Treaty had any sort of relevance, the executive order would not have been necessary.
My character Tsin'xing
I suspect that has a lot to do with the fractured nature of the Klingon Empire... they are somewhat resigned to the fact that they're going to end up fighting cloaking vessels on a par with their own, so Feds with cloaks doesn't make it any worse...
My character Tsin'xing
and the difference between klingon battle cloak and romulan battle cloak is that romulan cloaks get 40% ambush damage instead of 25% and the turn rate and stealth bonuses are slightly higher provided singularity charge is at 0
which just goes to show most of the players playing the red faction have no idea how to play a proper klingon, especially those who frequent the forums
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I don't know what Spock observed, but Memory Alpha implies otherwise.
It also seems that the Klingons don't care as much about proliferation of cloaking technology, as they outfitted the Maquis with a number of the devices.
Take a look at that again. The closest 'shadowy' organization the kdf has is the intelligence service under K'men. It gives all of the intel missions for that side period.
But Devidian arc including just the intercept of the Cardy/kdf fleets was assigned by sec 31.
Nimbus shared mission to find stolen thalaron triggers. Sec 31.
The federation has two groups doing intel work. Star Fleet Intelligence and Section 31. and at least in STO Section 31 is the more active branch.
Sec 31 should not have given the orders in Skirnish. That should have SF Command or Intelligence asking for the intercept. Only after the devidians were discovered should sec 31 have gotten interested.
And T'nae's comments at the end of the little mole hunt did not seem to be surprise but a mollifying. "Distasteful but effective" comment. Thus implying that she knew before you were sent. (Personally I think the mole was pretty gutsy. She could easily have been killed by the PCs as they tried to contain the rogue.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
The Romulans are the ultimate cloakmasters because in canon they were among the first races (if not the first )to develop it in the Alpha Quadrant (established in Enterprise; although the Suliban had cloaking technology in that era ,22nd Century, as well ). The Romulans are using the technology for their own Warbirds in Enterprise and the TOS "Balance Of Terror" episode. In the TOS episode "The Enterprise Incident" we see the Romulans are using Klingon D7 battle cruisers equipped with cloaking devices. (In the digitally remastered version of the episode there are also their own Warbirds seen surrounding the Enterprise as well as the D'7s).
It has been more implied than stated in canon how the Klingons got cloaking technology but it is a definite in canon fact that from the timeline of Enterprise to that of the TOS there are no Klingon vessels manned by Klingons equipped with cloaking devices seen until Star Trek 3: The Search For Spock which is also the debut of the Klingon Bird Of Prey
From then through to the Next Generation era we see Klingon vessels equipped with cloaking devices all the time and it has been my understanding that the in canon reason is because when the Romulans started using Klingon ships that was because then in TOS there was a Klingon/ Romulan alliance against the Federation which lead to an exchange of technology. The Romulans got supposedly better Klingon ships at that time and the Klingons got access to cloaking technology.
The Federation has the ability to develop cloaking technology but as established in "The Pegasus" TNG episode it has formally renounced (outside of this game anyway) developing it as the price for peace with the Romulans which is why in the "Defector" and "Unification" episodes Picard wants the assistance or use of Klingon ships (who are now Federation allies) because the Treaty does not apply to the Klingon Empire.
It's entirely possible Klingons developed their cloaks by themselves. Romulans are not the only race with cloaking tec anyway.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
If you were the sole supplier of a cloak for a ally, that might eventually be an enemy... Would you deliver a on-par cloak to them?
No... You wouldn... and neither would the Romulans, and the Klingons aren't dumb... Just numb... They know this too.
Starfleet is 400 years behind on cloaking tech compared with the romulans... 150 compared to the klingons.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Hell, forget the Treaty of Algeron, what about violation of direct orders from the legal commander-in-chief of the Federation military, that being President Okeg? Regardless of treaty obligations, whoever okayed that just opened themselves to a general court-martial.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/