Hell, forget the Treaty of Algeron, what about violation of direct orders from the legal commander-in-chief of the Federation military, that being President Okeg? Regardless of treaty obligations, whoever okayed that just opened themselves to a general court-martial.
oh, you know cryptic's going to get around that by saying okeg rescinded his order when the jenolan accords were formalized, or maybe even earlier than that since the avenger was designed to support cloaking capabilities even if it didn't actually come with an integrated cloak
after all, he only signed that order in the first place to ease tensions with the klingons and romulans to avert war, which clearly didn't work because the klingons declared war later on anyway, and the romulans, well...no comment
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Umm yeah that executive order was a good faith gesture by the President, and good faith tended to go out the window after the Klingon Empire and, Romulan Star Empire remnants declared war on the Federation.
Only a idiot would keep an executive order in place meant to ease tensions and prevent war with a party after said party declares war on you.
Umm yeah that executive order was a good faith gesture by the President, and good faith tended to go out the window after the Klingon Empire and, Romulan Star Empire remnants declared war on the Federation.
Only a idiot would keep an executive order in place meant to ease tensions and prevent war with a party after said party declares war on you.
Logic Fail!
Guess what, reality is illogical. Unless and until I see official information from Cryptic that the order has been either struck down by the courts or rescinded by the President, I'm going to continue demanding that whoever authorized this be arrested, charged, tried, convicted, and locked up.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Guess what, reality is illogical. Unless and until I see official information from Cryptic that the order has been either struck down by the courts or rescinded by the President, I'm going to continue demanding that whoever authorized this be arrested, charged, tried, convicted, and locked up.
you can demand anything happen in a fantasy setting that you don't own all you want...it's not happening on your say-so, and cryptic isn't going to waste valuable development time and money doing it either
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Okay, the way I see it this is just a rant. In general, Fed ships can not equip a cloaking device and that has not changed.
If you read the blog carefully, you will note that these new Intel ships are faction-consistent.
Fed Intel ships got Cloaking Devices. NOT Battle Cloak. Like the Defiant/Avenger/Gal-X.
The KDF Intel ship got a Battle Cloak as opposed to the standard KDF cloak. I think this is the only battlecruiser with this ability.
The Romulan Intel ship got an Enhanced Battle Cloak, just like the T'varo Retrofit. Again, the Romulans got the best cloaking technology, as it should be.
If that Fed Intel Sci ship weren't so dang ugly, I'd want one of those in a heartbeat. I've been wanting a stealth science vessel for ages.
The Romulan Intel warbird looks sweet and it's already on my wish list.
Arguing about canon and faction prerogatives is silly, in this case, in my opinion. The story, and the game, continue to evolve and the Devs have not thrown open the door for universal cloaking. It fits thematically with the rationale for exploring the Delta Quadrant.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Guess what, reality is illogical. Unless and until I see official information from Cryptic that the order has been either struck down by the courts or rescinded by the President, I'm going to continue demanding that whoever authorized this be arrested, charged, tried, convicted, and locked up.
*Tells Android officer on board to hold it's breath*
Before anyone else starts to cry havoc and let slip the dogs of whine.
Remember here that several Wmd thalaron armed ships (that are illegal weapons), banned by many alpha quadrant powers are flying in the republic fleet.
Let him who tosses stones from a glass house have a big broom and dustpan standing by.
*Tells Android officer on board to hold it's breath*
Before anyone else starts to cry havoc and let slip the dogs of whine.
Remember here that several Wmd thalaron armed ships (that are illegal weapons), banned by many alpha quadrant powers are flying in the republic fleet.
Let him who tosses stones from a glass house have a big broom and dustpan standing by.
Speak for yourself. My Rom flies a D'deridex and my Avenger doesn't have a cloaking device.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
There is still no canon evidence for a Klingon Romulan alliance.
It's entirely possible Klingons developed their cloaks by themselves. Romulans are not the only race with cloaking tec anyway.
In TNG "Sins Of The Father" the antipathy between Romulans and Klingons that developed is established as occurring after the Khitomer massacre in which the Klingon outpost (killing Worfs parents with he himself surviving) was destroyed in sneak Romulan attack. Worf says in dialogue to Picard "we were allies" before that incident. While in "Remdemption" Worf warns that if the Duras family gains control of the Empire it would undoubtedly lead to a "new Klingon/Romulan Alliance" which would shift the balance of power in the Alpha Quadrant against the Federation.
(Plus in episodes like "The"Drumhead" and The Minds Eye" there are Klingons who are sympathetic to the Romulans and think the Empire's then Alliance with the Federation is a perversion of what the Empire should stand for.)
Also the Romulans were(or at least their ambassador to the Federation was) working with General Chang along with the Starfleet's admiral Cartwright to scupper the peace process that began in the late 23rd century in ST6 (also at Khitomer in an earlier period) between the Federation and the Klingon Empire.
In the 24th century the Klingons seem to have in canon fell out with the Romulans to such a point that they were now"blood enemies" just as relations with the Federation were improving and it is established in TNG/DS9 that the Khitomer Accords lead to the Federation/Klingon Alliance of that period. So there was according to canon a Klingon/Romulan alliance probably from the 23rd century even if the details haven't been sketched that collapsed in the early 24th and while it is perfectly possible to argue in the absence of it being established in canon that the Klingons could have independently developed cloaking technology we do not see any evidence of this capability until ST3.
In TNG "Sins Of The Father" the antipathy between Romulans and Klingons that developed is established as occurring after the Khitomer massacre in which the Klingon outpost (killing Worfs parents with he himself surviving) was destroyed in sneak Romulan attack. Worf says in dialogue to Picard "we were allies" before that incident. While in "Remdemption" Worf warns that if the Duras family gains control of the Empire it would undoubtedly lead to a "new Klingon/Romulan Alliance" which would shift the balance of power in the Alpha Quadrant against the Federation.
(Plus in episodes like "The"Drumhead" and The Minds Eye" there are Klingons who are sympathetic to the Romulans and think the Empire's then Alliance with the Federation is a perversion of what the Empire should stand for.)
Also the Romulans were(or at least their ambassador to the Federation was) working with General Chang along with the Starfleet's admiral Cartwright to scupper the peace process that began in the late 23rd century in ST6 (also at Khitomer in an earlier period) between the Federation and the Klingon Empire.
In the 24th century the Klingons seem to have in canon fell out with the Romulans to such a point that they were now"blood enemies" just as relations with the Federation were improving and it is established in TNG/DS9 that the Khitomer Accords lead to the Federation/Klingon Alliance of that period. So there was according to canon a Klingon/Romulan alliance probably from the 23rd century even if the details haven't been sketched that collapsed in the early 24th and while it is perfectly possible to argue in the absence of it being established in canon that the Klingons could have independently developed cloaking technology we do not see any evidence of this capability until ST3.
Well written.. the issue people have is the "when".
When did the Treaty officially end:
This one is pretty obvious, RSE goes in to civil war, Sela takes over the RSE remnants forming a dictatorship and attacks the federation. The other faction forums the RR and makes a alliance with the Federation. The original Treaty holders are no more.. there for no treaty is in place.
When did the Federation by Okeg or the counsel rescind the cloak:
This is the biggest one there is no answer for. This is a internal issue of the Federation and did not violate any treaties with any of the current factions. So far the title of this forum thread shouldn't matter to the RR.
The only other issues is people personal tastes.. some how there is some moral issue with the Feds using a tech that everyone else has and that can save there ships and lives of Federation personal and civilians.
The people that are die hard classic Star Trek that any evolution of the franchise is to be bitterly resisted.
I have said for a long time it didn't make logical sense for the FEDs not to be researching and using cloaks.. I'm glad the developers agreed. The one thing that would be nice is they give hard lore in game on the "who, when and why" of the cloak change. But for me its a welcome change and long over due.
and dont say its not a valid argument. The Tal Shiar are just as bad, if not worse, than Section 31, therefor if Section 31 run's Starfleet itnellignece, then the Tal Shiar run the romulan intelligence, both imperial and republic.
Section 31's super secret, with only a handful of people knowing about them outside their 'section' i highlky doubt that they have the influence to have every meber of starfleet intelligence in their pockets.
Besides, if section 31 wet about breaking treaties and such doing stuff through starfleet intelligence, it would be noticed a hell of a lot quicker than some random starship captain or crewman doing the same thing.
If starfleet intelligence created a whole series of cloaking hsips based on illegal tech, im pretty sure there would be a massive clean up of such a corrupt department that it would have made intergalactic news on every major world.
so no, im not dillusional, it's obvious you are in thinking that a super secret orginazation would beable to commender a branch of starfleet with tens of thousands of agents who would most likely have the same morals as those who oppose section 31.
Actually I believe there are even canon references available that show RomInt WAS thoroughly infiltrated by the Tal Shiar. And even if Section 31 has 1/100th the personnel of Starfleet Intelligence, who cares? You dont need to own EVERY member of it just a tiny handful of personnel in key spots. And before you go off about how they can't do this or that, reference Into Darkness. Much as many hate JarJar Trek it IS canon like it or not. Section 31 and the right admiral = flargin huge dreadnought slated to be the first of a whole new Starfleet. This is just one ex sure, but its the best proof that just a few people in the right spots is all that is needed.
oh, you know cryptic's going to get around that by saying okeg rescinded his order when the jenolan accords were formalized, or maybe even earlier than that since the avenger was designed to support cloaking capabilities even if it didn't actually come with an integrated cloak
after all, he only signed that order in the first place to ease tensions with the klingons and romulans to avert war, which clearly didn't work because the klingons declared war later on anyway, and the romulans, well...no comment
sure, they could easily do that.... all I am saying is they NEED TO DO IT. Their established lore says these ships are illegal, even if you just look at the executive order. FIX THE FLUFF TEXT! They really dont care about that, only about how much $$$ they can rake in, but honestly it takes 10min or less to come up with some half-assed excuse fiction.
Guess what, reality is illogical. Unless and until I see official information from Cryptic that the order has been either struck down by the courts or rescinded by the President, I'm going to continue demanding that whoever authorized this be arrested, charged, tried, convicted, and locked up.
Exatly... instead of these fugly intel reports every couple days... take the same amount of time and write up some new fiction covering events leading up to the new situation. Its not that hard, it doesn't take that long, hell it's already been done in the dev offices so they know what is going on.
Since the Treaty is Algeron is irrelevant, I got around to looking up Executive Orders:
An executive order of the President must find support in the Constitution, either in a clause granting the President specific power, or by a delegation of power by Congress to the President.
However, the Supreme Court ruled in Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer, 343 US 579 (1952) that Executive Order 10340 from President Harry S. Truman placing all steel mills in the country under federal control was invalid because it attempted to make law, rather than clarify or act to further a law put forth by the Congress or the Constitution. Presidents since this decision have generally been careful to cite which specific laws they are acting under when issuing new executive orders.
Given that the government of the Federation is structured like the United States government, Okeg's Executive Order banning research and development of cloaking devices doesn't actually have any legal standing.
Obama can't just issue an Executive Order rendering research on (for example) Air to Air missiles illegal, because he doesn't have the power to arbitrarily create laws like that.
On the other hand, Starfleet Command can have standing orders that their research departments to not pursue that field, so violating those orders would lead to a court-martial. This of course would have no impact on civilian entities, as the actual research has not been rendered illegal by the legislative branch.
I am not so sure if the Government of the Fed is one to one as that of the United States. But anyway, I could imagine that the partners of the Federation will lack understanding such details. For Klingons and Romulans, the head of state is in most cases much more than for the Federation - civilian entities ignoring a order of the head of state are not normal for them, I would say. So they very likely will blame any breach (or hwat they understand so) towards the leadership, given the fact that in their societies civilian disorder is ever very close to open rebellion (Klingons who dislike the policy of their head of state often taken more...violent steps, and how the Romulans think about their society is known - civilian ignoring the government is nothing they seem to like very much, even less, I think, after so much of civil war).
The President can ban the research of cloak technology all he wants but the Fed have it and have had it for a long time...in Star Trek: Insurrection they cloaked a observation base and even had personal cloaking suits.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
The President can ban the research of cloak technology all he wants but the Fed have it and have had it for a long time...in Star Trek: Insurrection they cloaked a observation base and even had personal cloaking suits.
Clarification; I'll agree about the suits since I don't recall any other explanation of them, however wasn't the watch post more hidden by holograms rather than cloaked?
Also on that point I'll throw in the cloaking holodeck ship in the lake.
The President can ban the research of cloak technology all he wants but the Fed have it and have had it for a long time...in Star Trek: Insurrection they cloaked a observation base and even had personal cloaking suits.
Technically they've had cloaking technology since Kirk Stole a whole cloaking device in ToS... and again in "There be whales here!"
Although the last one at least was "only" a klingon cloak-ship, surely not the most advanced type. And since at that time tensions were runing high between the Fedderation and the Empire, perhaps the ship was returned in time (to calm the Klingons a little bit). There must be a reason that the Federation still around the Dominium War needed Romulan help to cloak the Defiant.
The Romulan Empire is a broken wreck, and the Romulan Republic may not mind Feds gettign cloaks. Klingons already have it, so its not like they got a monopoly.
Plus the more the Empire hates the Feds, the happier the Republican romulans are
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
A very narrow and short sighted point of view, I think. If all the RR would have such a slavish attitude like D'Tan, such a blindness towards the good of the Romulan people as nation, than perhaps you are right. If they do not care what the long time consequences are, if they are so blind in their stupid hate against all Romulans who not follow their way of life, which has not much in common with Romulan tradition, than yes.
But I guess that there are also inside the Republic enough people who a) know that the Federation is a long-time rival and even enemy of the Romulans and may very likely be that again in the future and b) that the Imperial Remnants are still the children of the Raptor - brothers and sisters with which reunification is much more important than bowing before the human-dominated Federation and the human-serving Vulcans.
Or so at least many Romulans will think, I guess. Not all Republican Romulans will share the blood-thirst and short-sighted hate towards the Empire you suggest.
The President can ban the research of cloak technology all he wants but the Fed have it and have had it for a long time...in Star Trek: Insurrection they cloaked a observation base and even had personal cloaking suits.
The Federation has used duckblinds before, see "Who Watches the Watchers." I would think that the Romulans would have objected a long time ago if they used real cloaking tech, it's probably a holographic system, since it doesn't have to hide them from sophisticated sensors anyway. The ship probably was a violation, since it was kept secret (originally, it was supposed to be implied that the ship belonged to S31), but i'll bet the Isosuits used holograms too.
Guess what, reality is illogical. Unless and until I see official information from Cryptic that the order has been either struck down by the courts or rescinded by the President, I'm going to continue demanding that whoever authorized this be arrested, charged, tried, convicted, and locked up.
Although the Federation initially agreed to follow the treaty after the destruction of the Romulan homeworld, in early 2409 Starfleet was authorized to develop and implement cloaking technology on selected ships.
It clearly says Starfleet was authorized to develop cloaks. It's legal, no one will be "arrested, charged, tried, convicted, and locked up".
If that was the result of D'Tan playing nice with the Fed than he is indeed the traitors his enemies see in him (or at least many Roms will see that so, including several inside in the RR). It would be another proof that he was never a leader of the Romulan People who had only their interest in mind, but more a leader who only want to go through with is agenda which ends in Romulans being servants of the Fed like his great hero Spock and his people. Shame, shame... but perhaps the wakening call the Romulan People need:D
Yes. Because your homeworld getting blown up by elements of YOUR OWN people is a good starting point for wars, right?
OHOHOH, wait, wait. I distinctively remember the Klingon empire starting to roll over the Romulan star empire and OH OH OH wait, i also remember that the elements responsible for the destruction of your ENTIRE HOMEWORLD are pulling the strings of your beloved empress and her tal shiar lackeys...
Yes, it must be TERRIBLE to have a guy like D'tan who actually does something useful and finds a homeworld for his now displaced people, a man who swallows stupid pride to make alliances that will ensure a prosperous new beginning.
Its SO BAD that he actually manages to give his people a place to thrive again and manages to maintain a military capable of participating in Galactic events, even fielding some of the meanest warships in the quadrant. He is SUCH a horrible leader that he does not immediately go to war on the Federation because of the cloaking tech he knows they have had for centuries. A technology that has produced phasic cloaks on the federation side, as seen in the Pegasus incident.
Yes he is such a terrible leader to not actually go seek a war against the very group that has agreed to provide aid and cooperation, a group he knows already has cloaks, and probably better ones, than he does. A group he knows has changed over the years of turmoil. A group that has its captains go out and do stuff that would give earlier generations of starfleet captains nightmares.
Yes. throwing a hissy fit about some dinky cloaks is totally reasonable.
*keeps turning his Defiant's cloak on and off. On and off. On and off.*
I'm sorry.. you were saying?
Dreadnought class. Two times the size, three times the speed. Advanced weaponry. Modified for a minimal crew. Unlike most Federation vessels, it's built solely for combat.
reynoldsxd: Hehehe, I thought not D'Tan found the new homeworld, that was some scruffy-looking nobody from some backyard-world...:D
A man/ woman/ whatsoever we all know very well.
And nobody argued for a war RR ALONE against the Federation. Together with the Klingons, that might be another thing. Would be perhaps not the worst idea to reduce the already dominant role of the Federation which needs a little rebalancing once and than. Create a new neutral zone, clearing the spehres of influence...
Plus I not so much argued for an extern reaktion but for an intern one against this slavish traitor who was never elected (as far as I know) and which greatest wish it seems to be to bow before other powers than to reunite the children of the Raptor (but wait, that would surely mean he would not be longer the great zampano of the block - good argument for him, it seems):rolleyes:
And it is a bit funny, this believe that Star Fleet has always the best tech, the toughest guys blablabla - someone seems to believe the Propaganda some series want to spread
Seem as if you see and judge the Klingon Empire through the "glasses" of some episodes of "Battlecruiser Vengeance"
reynoldsxd: Hehehe, I thought not D'Tan found the new homeworld, that was some scruffy-looking nobody from some backyard-world...:D
A man/ woman/ whatsoever we all know very well.
And nobody argued for a war RR ALONE against the Federation. Together with the Klingons, that might be another thing. Would be perhaps not the worst idea to reduce the already dominant role of the Federation which needs a little rebalancing once and than. Create a new neutral zone, clearing the spehres of influence...
Plus I not so much argued for an extern reaktion but for an intern one against this slavish traitor who was never elected (as far as I know) and which greatest wish it seems to be to bow before other powers than to reunite the children of the Raptor (but wait, that would surely mean he would not be longer the great zampano of the block - good argument for him, it seems):rolleyes:
And it is a bit funny, this believe that Star Fleet has always the best tech, the toughest guys blablabla - someone seems to believe the Propaganda some series want to spread
Seem as if you see and judge the Klingon Empire through the "glasses" of some episodes of "Battlecruiser Vengeance"
You really did miss the part of STO history where the klingons rolled over the romulans and snatched a load of territory from them, did you? An alliance with the klingons, the same klingons that have attacked the romulans just a few years earlier, in order to attack the federation. What motive do the klinkers have? They just reached a point where the federation had to admit that it was wrong in not trusting the empire on the whole undine thing, not to mention that the war got bogged down a lot and ceased to be fun.
So, why join the romulans? What do klingons care about federation cloaks.
Romulans probably DO care about the whole "hey you attacked us and stole our sh+t!" thing that the klinkers did though.
D'tan gave you the order supplies and location to go check up on Dewa. Its not like we really found it or something. We just got there and murdered some poor tholians.
reynoldsxd: Hehehe, I thought not D'Tan found the new homeworld, that was some scruffy-looking nobody from some backyard-world...
A man/ woman/ whatsoever we all know very well.
And nobody argued for a war RR ALONE against the Federation. Together with the Klingons, that might be another thing. Would be perhaps not the worst idea to reduce the already dominant role of the Federation which needs a little rebalancing once and than. Create a new neutral zone, clearing the spehres of influence...
Plus I not so much argued for an extern reaktion but for an intern one against this slavish traitor who was never elected (as far as I know) and which greatest wish it seems to be to bow before other powers than to reunite the children of the Raptor (but wait, that would surely mean he would not be longer the great zampano of the block - good argument for him, it seems
And it is a bit funny, this believe that Star Fleet has always the best tech, the toughest guys blablabla - someone seems to believe the Propaganda some series want to spread
Seem as if you see and judge the Klingon Empire through the "glasses" of some episodes of "Battlecruiser Vengeance"
The Republic romulans dislike the Imperial romulans, with good reason. They treated them worse than the Feds.
Suuuuure they turned your colonists into fungus, but they are Romulans too, so you must love them right? :rolleyes:
Also, Allying with Klingons against Feds? Feds are more likely not to attack you after such a thing.
D'Tan is also a unificationist. Those want Vulcan/Romulan unity. Vulcans are Feds. Do the math.
You are just silly.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
reynoldsxd: And you really missed the part in the complete Star-Trek history where the relations between the Fed and the Romulans were "complicated" to say it carefully over decades (and while the same could be said about Romulans and Klingons, there was also a lasting alliance between the two over years, driven by their hate towards the Federation). There are good reason why Romulans might more easy acccept a alliance with the Klingons than with the Fed - for example because the second alliance has the possibility to weaken the already growing influence of the Federation, and the dangers of cultural influence in Romulan society by foreign ideas (if you are honest, D'Tan act very little how someone who follows Klingon ideology, but very much how someone who want to change the Romulans to become more and more Federation-style, and that mean in the end influenced by human thinking).
By the way, I thought this guy on later-New Romulos did do some more than just killing some Iconians. He did find the sword of the Raptor, he and his crew did a lot of research to made clear that this world coud be used, and after that I have heard he foiled some dangerous Iconian plot on the planet. But if you want to put all the good this guy and of course many, many others did only to the "beloved great leader" D'Tan, the SACRED, the only hope of the Romulan people, those one in which footsteps flowers are gowing, than do what you want... *g*
tpalelena: I disagree. I think some short-sighted hateful hard-core Republicans and Vulcan-loving unificationists dislike the Imerpial Romulans. D'Tans "Republican Taliban" so to speak. The majority of the Republican Romulans may dislike some aspects of the Imperial Romulans LEADERSHIP, but not the Imperial Romulans as people - they are still the declared people, the childrens of the Raptor, people who share their language, values and tradition. And of course the Republican Romulans (or at least the majority, who ist not brainwashed by D'Tans slavish attitude) distrust and often dislike the humans (an the Klingons) for traditional reasons, and even more their leaders. History told them, that there could hardly be a lasting cooperation with them (and of course by no way with BOTH of them, that is a absolute stupid idea), but tensions with at least on of them is very likely - and that they could achieve more with the Klingons who did not whine if you have to use hard-handed tactics to spread your Empire, if you manage to seperate the spheres of influence (what seem to be working in the past). With the Federation a Romulan Future future is more or less one of assimilation like the Vulcans show. Nothing a proud Romulan want to happen. And there was never such a close relationship with the Federation than that with the Klingons for so long, so yes, a alliance withe Klingons seems to fit better.
D'Tan is a unificationist, that is clear - and one of his greatest failures. As a Romulan leader he should look for the greater good of all Romulans, not primairly for the benefit of his sick foreign ideology which is not shared by the huge majority of the Romulans. But some seem to believe that the people has to serve the head of state and his ideas, not the other way around. Strange how the "Republicans" have freedom in their mouth so often but that mean only freedom to do what D'Tan wish however how strange that must be for most Romulans.
He is someone who has no respect towards the Empire and its tradition for which generations of Romulans fought and died. He want to sell that away for bowing before people from which the children of the Raptor seperated for good reasons - and which way of life is perhaps good for scientists, teachers and servants of the human, but not for people who proudly owned an Empire. He admires a man (Spock) who had a lot of Romulans blood on his hands and has served as a enemy of the Romulan People over years (when he served as the "brain" of Kirks ship and harmed the interests of the Romulans and their Klingon allies). Yeah, that is man to follow...
So there is no need and no gain from a alliance with the Vulcans, only degeneration. Or so at least many Romulans will think (outside and inside the Republic), since it would be silly to think they all are brainwashed to becoming peace-loving friends of the Federation who ignore centuries and more of their past.
reynoldsxd: And you really missed the part in the complete Star-Trek history where the relations between the Fed and the Romulans were "complicated" to say it carefully over decades (and while the same could be said about Romulans and Klingons, there was also a lasting alliance between the two over years, driven by their hate towards the Federation). There are good reason why Romulans might more easy acccept a alliance with the Klingons than with the Fed - for example because the second alliance has the possibility to weaken the already growing influence of the Federation, and the dangers of cultural influence in Romulan society by foreign ideas (if you are honest, D'Tan act very little how someone who follows Klingon ideology, but very much how someone who want to change the Romulans to become more and more Federation-style, and that mean in the end influenced by human thinking).
By the way, I thought this guy on later-New Romulos did do some more than just killing some Iconians. He did find the sword of the Raptor, he and his crew did a lot of research to made clear that this world coud be used, and after that I have heard he foiled some dangerous Iconian plot on the planet. But if you want to put all the good this guy and of course many, many others did only to the "beloved great leader" D'Tan, the SACRED, the only hope of the Romulan people, those one in which footsteps flowers are gowing, than do what you want... *g*
tpalelena: I disagree. I think some short-sighted hateful hard-core Republicans and Vulcan-loving unificationists dislike the Imerpial Romulans. D'Tans "Republican Taliban" so to speak. The majority of the Republican Romulans may dislike some aspects of the Imperial Romulans LEADERSHIP, but not the Imperial Romulans as people - they are still the declared people, the childrens of the Raptor, people who share their language, values and tradition. And of course the Republican Romulans (or at least the majority, who ist not brainwashed by D'Tans slavish attitude) distrust and often dislike the humans (an the Klingons) for traditional reasons, and even more their leaders. History told them, that there could hardly be a lasting cooperation with them (and of course by no way with BOTH of them, that is a absolute stupid idea), but tensions with at least on of them is very likely - and that they could achieve more with the Klingons who did not whine if you have to use hard-handed tactics to spread your Empire, if you manage to seperate the spheres of influence (what seem to be working in the past). With the Federation a Romulan Future future is more or less one of assimilation like the Vulcans show. Nothing a proud Romulan want to happen. And there was never such a close relationship with the Federation than that with the Klingons for so long, so yes, a alliance withe Klingons seems to fit better.
D'Tan is a unificationist, that is clear - and one of his greatest failures. As a Romulan leader he should look for the greater good of all Romulans, not primairly for the benefit of his sick foreign ideology which is not shared by the huge majority of the Romulans. But some seem to believe that the people has to serve the head of state and his ideas, not the other way around. Strange how the "Republicans" have freedom in their mouth so often but that mean only freedom to do what D'Tan wish however how strange that must be for most Romulans.
He is someone who has no respect towards the Empire and its tradition for which generations of Romulans fought and died. He want to sell that away for bowing before people from which the children of the Raptor seperated for good reasons - and which way of life is perhaps good for scientists, teachers and servants of the human, but not for people who proudly owned an Empire. He admires a man (Spock) who had a lot of Romulans blood on his hands and has served as a enemy of the Romulan People over years (when he served as the "brain" of Kirks ship and harmed the interests of the Romulans and their Klingon allies). Yeah, that is man to follow...
So there is no need and no gain from a alliance with the Vulcans, only degeneration. Or so at least many Romulans will think (outside and inside the Republic), since it would be silly to think they all are brainwashed to becoming peace-loving friends of the Federation who ignore centuries and more of their past.
Your are just naiv if you believe that.
Enjoying the bloodwine? Perhaps an examination to make sure your ridges are not Klingon is in order. You seem to ignore that while the RSE and the Federation have had a complicated relationship in the distant past the Klingon Empire in more recent times has shown a brutal unrelenting aggression in attacking defenseless Romulan Planets especially after the Hobus incident. of which no apology was ever given.
True the diplomatic lean the federation takes can be very grating, but my Romulan would rather have diplomats that can be influenced and controled than have a dk'tahg stuck in his back anyday.
If you truly Trust/Believe the Klingons (or the Federation) are the best hope for Romulans then to borrow your words that would be naive.
The best course for Romulans isn't the Federation or the Klingon Empire, But to withdraw and rebuild into a decent power again and not some Fed/Kdf protectorate.
Reunification with the non-compromised Tal'shiar Rse remnants should be a higher priority then bowing to the Klingons or the Federation
reynoldsxd: And you really missed the part in the complete Star-Trek history where the relations between the Fed and the Romulans were "complicated" to say it carefully over decades (and while the same could be said about Romulans and Klingons, there was also a lasting alliance between the two over years, driven by their hate towards the Federation). There are good reason why Romulans might more easy acccept a alliance with the Klingons than with the Fed - for example because the second alliance has the possibility to weaken the already growing influence of the Federation, and the dangers of cultural influence in Romulan society by foreign ideas (if you are honest, D'Tan act very little how someone who follows Klingon ideology, but very much how someone who want to change the Romulans to become more and more Federation-style, and that mean in the end influenced by human thinking).
By the way, I thought this guy on later-New Romulos did do some more than just killing some Iconians. He did find the sword of the Raptor, he and his crew did a lot of research to made clear that this world coud be used, and after that I have heard he foiled some dangerous Iconian plot on the planet. But if you want to put all the good this guy and of course many, many others did only to the "beloved great leader" D'Tan, the SACRED, the only hope of the Romulan people, those one in which footsteps flowers are gowing, than do what you want... *g*
tpalelena: I disagree. I think some short-sighted hateful hard-core Republicans and Vulcan-loving unificationists dislike the Imerpial Romulans. D'Tans "Republican Taliban" so to speak. The majority of the Republican Romulans may dislike some aspects of the Imperial Romulans LEADERSHIP, but not the Imperial Romulans as people - they are still the declared people, the childrens of the Raptor, people who share their language, values and tradition. And of course the Republican Romulans (or at least the majority, who ist not brainwashed by D'Tans slavish attitude) distrust and often dislike the humans (an the Klingons) for traditional reasons, and even more their leaders. History told them, that there could hardly be a lasting cooperation with them (and of course by no way with BOTH of them, that is a absolute stupid idea), but tensions with at least on of them is very likely - and that they could achieve more with the Klingons who did not whine if you have to use hard-handed tactics to spread your Empire, if you manage to seperate the spheres of influence (what seem to be working in the past). With the Federation a Romulan Future future is more or less one of assimilation like the Vulcans show. Nothing a proud Romulan want to happen. And there was never such a close relationship with the Federation than that with the Klingons for so long, so yes, a alliance withe Klingons seems to fit better.
D'Tan is a unificationist, that is clear - and one of his greatest failures. As a Romulan leader he should look for the greater good of all Romulans, not primairly for the benefit of his sick foreign ideology which is not shared by the huge majority of the Romulans. But some seem to believe that the people has to serve the head of state and his ideas, not the other way around. Strange how the "Republicans" have freedom in their mouth so often but that mean only freedom to do what D'Tan wish however how strange that must be for most Romulans.
He is someone who has no respect towards the Empire and its tradition for which generations of Romulans fought and died. He want to sell that away for bowing before people from which the children of the Raptor seperated for good reasons - and which way of life is perhaps good for scientists, teachers and servants of the human, but not for people who proudly owned an Empire. He admires a man (Spock) who had a lot of Romulans blood on his hands and has served as a enemy of the Romulan People over years (when he served as the "brain" of Kirks ship and harmed the interests of the Romulans and their Klingon allies). Yeah, that is man to follow...
So there is no need and no gain from a alliance with the Vulcans, only degeneration. Or so at least many Romulans will think (outside and inside the Republic), since it would be silly to think they all are brainwashed to becoming peace-loving friends of the Federation who ignore centuries and more of their past.
Your are just naiv if you believe that.
Just fact checking. A young farmer on an out of the way remote world far from the fighting is attacked and the farm burned. Escaping with a rough character they joined an alliance of rebels. Several missions where the broken down freighter had to fight off supposedly superior imperial forces. The farmer finds a good, unclaimed world and on it the fossilized remains of the Sword of the Raptor Star. Sees one of the few they knew die to protect D'tan's mission and bring both the federation and the Klingon empire to pay for building a new world. The farmer goes and expands the areas under republic control. Is captured and escapes from the dreaded inner chambers of the feared secret police. Leads counter assault on terrible enemies, stopping to free as many victims as the farmer can. Joins and leads the defense of the new homeworld. Works to open the world and pacify those that would violently disrupt it. Finds treasures beyond imagining. And when short sighted politics demanded rushing on a sensitive project turns a would be disaster into expanding the Republic's role in the galaxy. Then fights to secure the defenses of both the Federation and the Klingon homeworlds.
Now with those facts I just have one question. Why has this farmer not been given senatorial robes?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
megatronis1:
Distant past seems to be a little bit strange for events which are actually not SO long gone (and which have roots in events centuries ago, which were never forgotten).
And you seem to ignore what I think would best fit the interest of most Romulans people and what might be also closer to their mind - at first and above all comes the reunification of all Romulans. Than the containment of the Federation which is already very strong and which power seems only to grow further, a thing that is of course in the eyes of most sane Romulans not a good thing, given the relationship in the past. If possible that could be done together with the Klingons. I do not argue - at no point - for a protectorate under which power however. But it seems that a alliance (similar to those Romulans and Klingons shared over years) between the Empires make much more sense than one with the Federation. At first the Klingons have less attitude to transfor another society in one who is following their values. And even more important, the Empire is weaker than the Federation (although still powerful). So it would depend much more on Romulan help to stay strong against the Federation, and that would mean it could much less (and would much less) argue against Romulan expansion as long as their key interests are not harmed (while the Federation with their whining attitude about the rights of other nations is much more annoying if some minor nation is forced or manipulated to accept Romulan leadership). A alliance with the Klingons WAS possible - history told that. With the Federation much less (even their alliance with the Klingons broke apart because they could not accept that other nations follow other values than their own). So I think from a Romulan point of view at first it would much more wise to ally with ONE natioon (not does the silly and stupid D'Tan-thing and sending your people into the fleets of two powers who are actually shooting at each other) and second it seems that a alliance withe Klingons would made much more sense because in such a alliance the Romulans (and even more after their ended the civil war - what should be possible if not only the fanatics on both sides have do decide) would play a much more important role than if they play becoming Vulcans 2.0 together with the Federation, ending in the same way as their related "brothers" - a curiosity which had not much to say in the Galaxy any more.
feiqa
This seems to be a good question. Well, perhaps because he/ she is not part of D'Tans old circle of trusties? The guy/ girl might made in some cases decisions and learn things towards his/ her tour of duty which leads him/ her perhaps to a point of view which is not the same as D'Tan. That is a possible explanation which comes to my mind... *g*
To be honest, I do not know, perhaps it is a short-sighted bias of some people (including some game-makers?) against "evil politicians", the point of view that policy is something bad, and that pure good people are soldiers and want nothing more than to be that (this strage point of view you could find in several books, also Star-Trek-related). Of course that would be a point of view which makes no sense for a Romulan. Perhaps they think players are all Picard- or Kirk-guys who never want much more than to be captain of a ship?
Comments
after all, he only signed that order in the first place to ease tensions with the klingons and romulans to avert war, which clearly didn't work because the klingons declared war later on anyway, and the romulans, well...no comment
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Only a idiot would keep an executive order in place meant to ease tensions and prevent war with a party after said party declares war on you.
Logic Fail!
Guess what, reality is illogical. Unless and until I see official information from Cryptic that the order has been either struck down by the courts or rescinded by the President, I'm going to continue demanding that whoever authorized this be arrested, charged, tried, convicted, and locked up.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
If you read the blog carefully, you will note that these new Intel ships are faction-consistent.
Fed Intel ships got Cloaking Devices. NOT Battle Cloak. Like the Defiant/Avenger/Gal-X.
The KDF Intel ship got a Battle Cloak as opposed to the standard KDF cloak. I think this is the only battlecruiser with this ability.
The Romulan Intel ship got an Enhanced Battle Cloak, just like the T'varo Retrofit. Again, the Romulans got the best cloaking technology, as it should be.
If that Fed Intel Sci ship weren't so dang ugly, I'd want one of those in a heartbeat. I've been wanting a stealth science vessel for ages.
The Romulan Intel warbird looks sweet and it's already on my wish list.
Arguing about canon and faction prerogatives is silly, in this case, in my opinion. The story, and the game, continue to evolve and the Devs have not thrown open the door for universal cloaking. It fits thematically with the rationale for exploring the Delta Quadrant.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
*Tells Android officer on board to hold it's breath*
Before anyone else starts to cry havoc and let slip the dogs of whine.
Remember here that several Wmd thalaron armed ships (that are illegal weapons), banned by many alpha quadrant powers are flying in the republic fleet.
Let him who tosses stones from a glass house have a big broom and dustpan standing by.
[/SIGPIC]
"Epohhs of whine" surely? or maybe Targs or Tribbles...
Speak for yourself. My Rom flies a D'deridex and my Avenger doesn't have a cloaking device.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
In TNG "Sins Of The Father" the antipathy between Romulans and Klingons that developed is established as occurring after the Khitomer massacre in which the Klingon outpost (killing Worfs parents with he himself surviving) was destroyed in sneak Romulan attack. Worf says in dialogue to Picard "we were allies" before that incident. While in "Remdemption" Worf warns that if the Duras family gains control of the Empire it would undoubtedly lead to a "new Klingon/Romulan Alliance" which would shift the balance of power in the Alpha Quadrant against the Federation.
(Plus in episodes like "The"Drumhead" and The Minds Eye" there are Klingons who are sympathetic to the Romulans and think the Empire's then Alliance with the Federation is a perversion of what the Empire should stand for.)
Also the Romulans were(or at least their ambassador to the Federation was) working with General Chang along with the Starfleet's admiral Cartwright to scupper the peace process that began in the late 23rd century in ST6 (also at Khitomer in an earlier period) between the Federation and the Klingon Empire.
In the 24th century the Klingons seem to have in canon fell out with the Romulans to such a point that they were now"blood enemies" just as relations with the Federation were improving and it is established in TNG/DS9 that the Khitomer Accords lead to the Federation/Klingon Alliance of that period. So there was according to canon a Klingon/Romulan alliance probably from the 23rd century even if the details haven't been sketched that collapsed in the early 24th and while it is perfectly possible to argue in the absence of it being established in canon that the Klingons could have independently developed cloaking technology we do not see any evidence of this capability until ST3.
Well written.. the issue people have is the "when".
When did the Treaty officially end:
This one is pretty obvious, RSE goes in to civil war, Sela takes over the RSE remnants forming a dictatorship and attacks the federation. The other faction forums the RR and makes a alliance with the Federation. The original Treaty holders are no more.. there for no treaty is in place.
When did the Federation by Okeg or the counsel rescind the cloak:
This is the biggest one there is no answer for. This is a internal issue of the Federation and did not violate any treaties with any of the current factions. So far the title of this forum thread shouldn't matter to the RR.
The only other issues is people personal tastes.. some how there is some moral issue with the Feds using a tech that everyone else has and that can save there ships and lives of Federation personal and civilians.
The people that are die hard classic Star Trek that any evolution of the franchise is to be bitterly resisted.
I have said for a long time it didn't make logical sense for the FEDs not to be researching and using cloaks.. I'm glad the developers agreed. The one thing that would be nice is they give hard lore in game on the "who, when and why" of the cloak change. But for me its a welcome change and long over due.
Actually I believe there are even canon references available that show RomInt WAS thoroughly infiltrated by the Tal Shiar. And even if Section 31 has 1/100th the personnel of Starfleet Intelligence, who cares? You dont need to own EVERY member of it just a tiny handful of personnel in key spots. And before you go off about how they can't do this or that, reference Into Darkness. Much as many hate JarJar Trek it IS canon like it or not. Section 31 and the right admiral = flargin huge dreadnought slated to be the first of a whole new Starfleet. This is just one ex sure, but its the best proof that just a few people in the right spots is all that is needed.
sure, they could easily do that.... all I am saying is they NEED TO DO IT. Their established lore says these ships are illegal, even if you just look at the executive order. FIX THE FLUFF TEXT! They really dont care about that, only about how much $$$ they can rake in, but honestly it takes 10min or less to come up with some half-assed excuse fiction.
Exatly... instead of these fugly intel reports every couple days... take the same amount of time and write up some new fiction covering events leading up to the new situation. Its not that hard, it doesn't take that long, hell it's already been done in the dev offices so they know what is going on.
Given that the government of the Federation is structured like the United States government, Okeg's Executive Order banning research and development of cloaking devices doesn't actually have any legal standing.
Obama can't just issue an Executive Order rendering research on (for example) Air to Air missiles illegal, because he doesn't have the power to arbitrarily create laws like that.
On the other hand, Starfleet Command can have standing orders that their research departments to not pursue that field, so violating those orders would lead to a court-martial. This of course would have no impact on civilian entities, as the actual research has not been rendered illegal by the legislative branch.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Clarification; I'll agree about the suits since I don't recall any other explanation of them, however wasn't the watch post more hidden by holograms rather than cloaked?
Also on that point I'll throw in the cloaking holodeck ship in the lake.
Technically they've had cloaking technology since Kirk Stole a whole cloaking device in ToS... and again in "There be whales here!"
The Romulan Empire is a broken wreck, and the Romulan Republic may not mind Feds gettign cloaks. Klingons already have it, so its not like they got a monopoly.
Plus the more the Empire hates the Feds, the happier the Republican romulans are
But I guess that there are also inside the Republic enough people who a) know that the Federation is a long-time rival and even enemy of the Romulans and may very likely be that again in the future and b) that the Imperial Remnants are still the children of the Raptor - brothers and sisters with which reunification is much more important than bowing before the human-dominated Federation and the human-serving Vulcans.
Or so at least many Romulans will think, I guess. Not all Republican Romulans will share the blood-thirst and short-sighted hate towards the Empire you suggest.
The Federation has used duckblinds before, see "Who Watches the Watchers." I would think that the Romulans would have objected a long time ago if they used real cloaking tech, it's probably a holographic system, since it doesn't have to hide them from sophisticated sensors anyway. The ship probably was a violation, since it was kept secret (originally, it was supposed to be implied that the ship belonged to S31), but i'll bet the Isosuits used holograms too.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=18730791&postcount=28
Also: http://sto.gamepedia.com/Cloaking_Device
It clearly says Starfleet was authorized to develop cloaks. It's legal, no one will be "arrested, charged, tried, convicted, and locked up".
Yes. Because your homeworld getting blown up by elements of YOUR OWN people is a good starting point for wars, right?
OHOHOH, wait, wait. I distinctively remember the Klingon empire starting to roll over the Romulan star empire and OH OH OH wait, i also remember that the elements responsible for the destruction of your ENTIRE HOMEWORLD are pulling the strings of your beloved empress and her tal shiar lackeys...
Yes, it must be TERRIBLE to have a guy like D'tan who actually does something useful and finds a homeworld for his now displaced people, a man who swallows stupid pride to make alliances that will ensure a prosperous new beginning.
Its SO BAD that he actually manages to give his people a place to thrive again and manages to maintain a military capable of participating in Galactic events, even fielding some of the meanest warships in the quadrant. He is SUCH a horrible leader that he does not immediately go to war on the Federation because of the cloaking tech he knows they have had for centuries. A technology that has produced phasic cloaks on the federation side, as seen in the Pegasus incident.
Yes he is such a terrible leader to not actually go seek a war against the very group that has agreed to provide aid and cooperation, a group he knows already has cloaks, and probably better ones, than he does. A group he knows has changed over the years of turmoil. A group that has its captains go out and do stuff that would give earlier generations of starfleet captains nightmares.
Yes. throwing a hissy fit about some dinky cloaks is totally reasonable.
*keeps turning his Defiant's cloak on and off. On and off. On and off.*
I'm sorry.. you were saying?
Dreadnought class. Two times the size, three times the speed. Advanced weaponry. Modified for a minimal crew. Unlike most Federation vessels, it's built solely for combat.
A man/ woman/ whatsoever we all know very well.
And nobody argued for a war RR ALONE against the Federation. Together with the Klingons, that might be another thing. Would be perhaps not the worst idea to reduce the already dominant role of the Federation which needs a little rebalancing once and than. Create a new neutral zone, clearing the spehres of influence...
Plus I not so much argued for an extern reaktion but for an intern one against this slavish traitor who was never elected (as far as I know) and which greatest wish it seems to be to bow before other powers than to reunite the children of the Raptor (but wait, that would surely mean he would not be longer the great zampano of the block - good argument for him, it seems):rolleyes:
And it is a bit funny, this believe that Star Fleet has always the best tech, the toughest guys blablabla - someone seems to believe the Propaganda some series want to spread
Seem as if you see and judge the Klingon Empire through the "glasses" of some episodes of "Battlecruiser Vengeance"
You really did miss the part of STO history where the klingons rolled over the romulans and snatched a load of territory from them, did you? An alliance with the klingons, the same klingons that have attacked the romulans just a few years earlier, in order to attack the federation. What motive do the klinkers have? They just reached a point where the federation had to admit that it was wrong in not trusting the empire on the whole undine thing, not to mention that the war got bogged down a lot and ceased to be fun.
So, why join the romulans? What do klingons care about federation cloaks.
Romulans probably DO care about the whole "hey you attacked us and stole our sh+t!" thing that the klinkers did though.
D'tan gave you the order supplies and location to go check up on Dewa. Its not like we really found it or something. We just got there and murdered some poor tholians.
^^ Murdering tholians... oh the good old times.
The Republic romulans dislike the Imperial romulans, with good reason. They treated them worse than the Feds.
Suuuuure they turned your colonists into fungus, but they are Romulans too, so you must love them right? :rolleyes:
Also, Allying with Klingons against Feds? Feds are more likely not to attack you after such a thing.
D'Tan is also a unificationist. Those want Vulcan/Romulan unity. Vulcans are Feds. Do the math.
You are just silly.
By the way, I thought this guy on later-New Romulos did do some more than just killing some Iconians. He did find the sword of the Raptor, he and his crew did a lot of research to made clear that this world coud be used, and after that I have heard he foiled some dangerous Iconian plot on the planet. But if you want to put all the good this guy and of course many, many others did only to the "beloved great leader" D'Tan, the SACRED, the only hope of the Romulan people, those one in which footsteps flowers are gowing, than do what you want... *g*
tpalelena: I disagree. I think some short-sighted hateful hard-core Republicans and Vulcan-loving unificationists dislike the Imerpial Romulans. D'Tans "Republican Taliban" so to speak. The majority of the Republican Romulans may dislike some aspects of the Imperial Romulans LEADERSHIP, but not the Imperial Romulans as people - they are still the declared people, the childrens of the Raptor, people who share their language, values and tradition. And of course the Republican Romulans (or at least the majority, who ist not brainwashed by D'Tans slavish attitude) distrust and often dislike the humans (an the Klingons) for traditional reasons, and even more their leaders. History told them, that there could hardly be a lasting cooperation with them (and of course by no way with BOTH of them, that is a absolute stupid idea), but tensions with at least on of them is very likely - and that they could achieve more with the Klingons who did not whine if you have to use hard-handed tactics to spread your Empire, if you manage to seperate the spheres of influence (what seem to be working in the past). With the Federation a Romulan Future future is more or less one of assimilation like the Vulcans show. Nothing a proud Romulan want to happen. And there was never such a close relationship with the Federation than that with the Klingons for so long, so yes, a alliance withe Klingons seems to fit better.
D'Tan is a unificationist, that is clear - and one of his greatest failures. As a Romulan leader he should look for the greater good of all Romulans, not primairly for the benefit of his sick foreign ideology which is not shared by the huge majority of the Romulans. But some seem to believe that the people has to serve the head of state and his ideas, not the other way around. Strange how the "Republicans" have freedom in their mouth so often but that mean only freedom to do what D'Tan wish however how strange that must be for most Romulans.
He is someone who has no respect towards the Empire and its tradition for which generations of Romulans fought and died. He want to sell that away for bowing before people from which the children of the Raptor seperated for good reasons - and which way of life is perhaps good for scientists, teachers and servants of the human, but not for people who proudly owned an Empire. He admires a man (Spock) who had a lot of Romulans blood on his hands and has served as a enemy of the Romulan People over years (when he served as the "brain" of Kirks ship and harmed the interests of the Romulans and their Klingon allies). Yeah, that is man to follow...
So there is no need and no gain from a alliance with the Vulcans, only degeneration. Or so at least many Romulans will think (outside and inside the Republic), since it would be silly to think they all are brainwashed to becoming peace-loving friends of the Federation who ignore centuries and more of their past.
Your are just naiv if you believe that.
Enjoying the bloodwine? Perhaps an examination to make sure your ridges are not Klingon is in order. You seem to ignore that while the RSE and the Federation have had a complicated relationship in the distant past the Klingon Empire in more recent times has shown a brutal unrelenting aggression in attacking defenseless Romulan Planets especially after the Hobus incident. of which no apology was ever given.
True the diplomatic lean the federation takes can be very grating, but my Romulan would rather have diplomats that can be influenced and controled than have a dk'tahg stuck in his back anyday.
If you truly Trust/Believe the Klingons (or the Federation) are the best hope for Romulans then to borrow your words that would be naive.
The best course for Romulans isn't the Federation or the Klingon Empire, But to withdraw and rebuild into a decent power again and not some Fed/Kdf protectorate.
Reunification with the non-compromised Tal'shiar Rse remnants should be a higher priority then bowing to the Klingons or the Federation
Just fact checking. A young farmer on an out of the way remote world far from the fighting is attacked and the farm burned. Escaping with a rough character they joined an alliance of rebels. Several missions where the broken down freighter had to fight off supposedly superior imperial forces. The farmer finds a good, unclaimed world and on it the fossilized remains of the Sword of the Raptor Star. Sees one of the few they knew die to protect D'tan's mission and bring both the federation and the Klingon empire to pay for building a new world. The farmer goes and expands the areas under republic control. Is captured and escapes from the dreaded inner chambers of the feared secret police. Leads counter assault on terrible enemies, stopping to free as many victims as the farmer can. Joins and leads the defense of the new homeworld. Works to open the world and pacify those that would violently disrupt it. Finds treasures beyond imagining. And when short sighted politics demanded rushing on a sensitive project turns a would be disaster into expanding the Republic's role in the galaxy. Then fights to secure the defenses of both the Federation and the Klingon homeworlds.
Now with those facts I just have one question. Why has this farmer not been given senatorial robes?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Distant past seems to be a little bit strange for events which are actually not SO long gone (and which have roots in events centuries ago, which were never forgotten).
And you seem to ignore what I think would best fit the interest of most Romulans people and what might be also closer to their mind - at first and above all comes the reunification of all Romulans. Than the containment of the Federation which is already very strong and which power seems only to grow further, a thing that is of course in the eyes of most sane Romulans not a good thing, given the relationship in the past. If possible that could be done together with the Klingons. I do not argue - at no point - for a protectorate under which power however. But it seems that a alliance (similar to those Romulans and Klingons shared over years) between the Empires make much more sense than one with the Federation. At first the Klingons have less attitude to transfor another society in one who is following their values. And even more important, the Empire is weaker than the Federation (although still powerful). So it would depend much more on Romulan help to stay strong against the Federation, and that would mean it could much less (and would much less) argue against Romulan expansion as long as their key interests are not harmed (while the Federation with their whining attitude about the rights of other nations is much more annoying if some minor nation is forced or manipulated to accept Romulan leadership). A alliance with the Klingons WAS possible - history told that. With the Federation much less (even their alliance with the Klingons broke apart because they could not accept that other nations follow other values than their own). So I think from a Romulan point of view at first it would much more wise to ally with ONE natioon (not does the silly and stupid D'Tan-thing and sending your people into the fleets of two powers who are actually shooting at each other) and second it seems that a alliance withe Klingons would made much more sense because in such a alliance the Romulans (and even more after their ended the civil war - what should be possible if not only the fanatics on both sides have do decide) would play a much more important role than if they play becoming Vulcans 2.0 together with the Federation, ending in the same way as their related "brothers" - a curiosity which had not much to say in the Galaxy any more.
feiqa
This seems to be a good question. Well, perhaps because he/ she is not part of D'Tans old circle of trusties? The guy/ girl might made in some cases decisions and learn things towards his/ her tour of duty which leads him/ her perhaps to a point of view which is not the same as D'Tan. That is a possible explanation which comes to my mind... *g*
To be honest, I do not know, perhaps it is a short-sighted bias of some people (including some game-makers?) against "evil politicians", the point of view that policy is something bad, and that pure good people are soldiers and want nothing more than to be that (this strage point of view you could find in several books, also Star-Trek-related). Of course that would be a point of view which makes no sense for a Romulan. Perhaps they think players are all Picard- or Kirk-guys who never want much more than to be captain of a ship?