After thinking on this subject for a couple of days. Here is what I come to on this.
1: Star Trek Lore:
The most honorable way was the agreement with the Romulan with the Defiant. As both sides gained valuable info on the Dominion. In that situation it called for extreme measures.
So could say the Defiant was getting INTEL for both the Feds and Romulans? So it is ok when Ben "The Pimp Hand" Sisko does it but not everyone else?
Are you serious? Alliance vs Horde in WoW? Republic vs Empire in TOR? Guardian vs Defiant in RIFT? The only MMO I can think of that have factions where the differences aren't cosmetic is Order vs Destruction in Warhammer Online, but those differences are minor.
Yes serious. WoW, ToR while classes are similar if not exact they also have totally unique missions that can give a different faction a flavour that attracts other players. In STO the play quickly becomes the exact same missions for everyone. So faction identity needs to be based on the differences in those factions themselves. Dilute them all to one homogenized set and you need not have the factions at all.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Should be noted the Fed ships are Starfleet Intelligence ships. They're spec ops, with stealth ships for gathering intelligence. Of course they have cloak, legal or not. You think Starfleet would hinder it's own secret service type thing just because of some stupid treaty with the Romulans?
So could say the Defiant was getting INTEL for both the Feds and Romulans? So it is ok when Sisko does it but not everyone else?
It was an agreement between the Federation and Romulans. Since all contact to the Dominion ended in failure. So they used it to find out who was behind the Dominion and at least try to talk to them for some kind of possible peace. That too failed however what knowledge they got from that did help them later when war came. So therefor this agreement was done properly and correctly since the treaty was between these 2 groups to start with.
The others did it with treachery or corruption. Like the Pegasus and Insurrection mess. Which people got killed or ended up in court for their actions. And this was not part of any agreement, thus violated the treaty. And was illegal from the start. This is similar to "Moonshine". Yes its illegal, and you will get into trouble. You can get away with it until your caught. That is when your wrong doing will be judged in court.
Now Kirk did it to capture the device. That did gave Star Fleet a better idea on what they was dealing with. So that is more spoils of war. As all sides do it. Even in World War II. The Americans stole or captured all kinds of stuff to study. And even today the Americans still do it. So that is common and different situtation.
So yes, Sisko did it correctly and was fine. The others did it for other reasons and paid the price for their wrong doings.
As for the game, it don't really matter. The Devs are making a game for us to enjoy. That is what matters. It would be better if they did story to explain why they going this route. At least they did when the Defiant got it on the show.
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I'm sorry, did the Treaty of Algeron also forbid cannons?
In case you kinda missed it this thread was pulled so far off of the topic of that treaty as to be totally unrelated for the last half dozen pages or more. No the cannons have nothing to do with that but really fed cruisers and sci ships with cannons? Aside from the Avenger, a purpose built warship, where does that happen? These arent even warships they're supposed to be IntOps vessels but they get cloaks AND cannons.... Frankly the only one that should get that imo is the Klingon design considering these are SPY SHIPS, tho I can see the fed escort as well since all their escorts can.
In case you kinda missed it this thread was pulled so far off of the topic of that treaty as to be totally unrelated for the last half dozen pages or more. No the cannons have nothing to do with that but really fed cruisers and sci ships with cannons? Aside from the Avenger, a purpose built warship, where does that happen? These arent even warships they're supposed to be IntOps vessels but they get cloaks AND cannons.... Frankly the only one that should get that imo is the Klingon design considering these are SPY SHIPS, tho I can see the fed escort as well since all their escorts can.
This thread has always been about the cloaks. You're the only one to talk about their cannons.
Also the Vesta ships can equip the Aux DHCs. This isn't without precedence.
Eh anything canon goes out the window with this game so technically the treaty never existed if it can be rolled up into a log and then destroyed and a dollar scammed out the other side then cryptic will break it if that is the easiest and laziest way to make the dollar.
I told u Rommies that the Federation is Evul and they are Lairs, they come to conquer what left of ur Has Been Emipre so they can assimilate into their Federation.
Cryptic wanted to destroyed the Romulan Star Empire and they did...
Captain Geko is Pro-Fed therefor he created a Romulan Puppet's Republic to serve the Evul Federation and their subtle thrist to conquer the Galaxy!
farmallm: You are right people did steal secrets, from both thei enemies and neutrals and sometimes even from their today-allies. But you should also mentioned that exactly that attitude has the potential to be blown up if it comes obvious, to harm even the best relations (and nobody would say that the relations between Klingons and Federation were the best 2409/10, and that there is not HUGE distrust even in the ranks of the RR-military towards the Federation given the fact that many of them have an imperial past and come from families who fought the Federation open or covert for decades).
oakland4life: Seem you are right, but perhaps the latest betrayal will support the deperate fight of more and more "Romulans" to end the reign of that Federation-puppet D'Tan...:D
Yes serious. WoW, ToR while classes are similar if not exact they also have totally unique missions that can give a different faction a flavour that attracts other players. In STO the play quickly becomes the exact same missions for everyone. So faction identity needs to be based on the differences in those factions themselves. Dilute them all to one homogenized set and you need not have the factions at all.
You're completely right, sir. This is actually one of the most troubling things with the direction Cryptic has taken with story missions IMHO.
It also kills my will to play multifaction and use alts, since I'll be experiencing the exact same story content - and the story content is sth. I enjoy most. I hope this will not be case with the DR story content, but given the experience I'm not holding my breath.
no worries, this got pulled pretty off topic many pages ago.
I pretty much agree tho, we wont be seeing much faction/fraction specific stories but just more homogenized blegh and romulans will probably still be referred to as Federation/Klingons for it
But I still think that many Romulans will see that different and see that at least as an unfriendly act from the Federation - and if it was done with D'Tans support it adds to other facts which show them that he is a traitor who values his foreign agenda and ideology much over the best for the Romulans as nation.
Here I agree from a Romulan perspective. It should be iny th einterest of both the Klingons (true klingons, not traitors) and Romulans (true Romulons both inside and outside the RR) that the Federation is stopped before it become even more powerful than she is at the moment. This would be even a greater danger since the Federation has a sick believe that their values there "human rights" (a rassistic term, of course) should be binding for all. Or so (I guess) many people could think, more independent Romulans and Klingons and perhaps also members from minor powers.
And it is a little bit strange to argue the treaty was only made with the RSE - at least the Fed should started new talks with the RR and the Empire and the Imperial Remnants before simply starting research (did they do that?).
But perhaps all this treacherous behavior could end in a greater good. If the Klingons and the Romulans both inside and outside the RR find out who is indeed trying to change the balance of power in the Alpha Quadrant and beyond and join forces to counter that, it could perhaps bringing some benefits (and helping to end the civil war between the Romulans). In the end there may be again neutral zones and two Empires who have at least one thing in common - a greater enemy, the human dominated Federation.
They reneged on Okeg's pledge when the Khitomer Accords broke down in 2399, and Starfleet started deploying cloak-capable, and equipped, military-oriented vessels in anticipation of all out war with the Klingon Empire.
The Star Empire being in the crapper had nothing to do with the Federation's reversal on it's policies relating to cloaking technology. And I seriously doubt that the Republic could ever convince the Federation to renew the treaty, consider the state of warfare that exist across the galaxy currently.
Neither the Federation executive, or Starfleet, is that stupid.
But I still think that many Romulans will see that different and see that at least as an unfriendly act from the Federation
You assume the Republic cares about the federation having cloaks like the petulant children of Qo'nos seem to.
- and if it was done with D'Tans support it adds to other facts which show them that he is a traitor who values his foreign agenda and ideology much over the best for the Romulans as nation.
And yet still better than a group of traitors who sold their own race out for power and are actively supporting the genocide of said race.
This is exactly the problem with PVP. PVP can't thrive if one side has to draw "the short straw" in order to play, and be the perpetual victim. People talk about Feds having better scanners, but that's really just in one ship... their other ships just explode to Alpha strikes most of the time. There's no way to prepare for an Alpha strike, because that requires anticipating it.
As it stands, whenever I enter Ker'rat, if I ever see a lone ship flying around, it's always just acting as bait for its cloaked friends waiting in the wings.
What PVP needs is maps that have "gas pockets" or other environmental hazards that knock ships out of cloak. Cloaking has ruined PVP, and unless they give all Fed ships a cost-free way to detect cloaked vessels in the same way as KDF and Rom ships get cost-free cloaks, or just make Cloaking very difficult in all PVP maps, PVP is never going to improve.
I do agree with the idea that maps could have environmental hazards that negate cloaks (or any other game mechanic) and which reduces tactical options for one person and increases them for another, based purely on maneuvering around and through them.
I do not agree that cloaking should be difficult in all PvP maps. It's an interesting tactical option that can provide spice to an encounter, if it's done right. If there's a problem, it's that the Federation players by-and-large lack enough interesting tactical options of their own... and that there are no real drawbacks to a decloaking Alpha strike.
Perhaps aside from knocking shields and energy weapons offline, cloaks ought to penalize weapon and engine power levels while cloaked. That way, when you decloak, your power levels take a second or two to return to normal. You can still get off a buffed strike, but the first volley won't be as devastating as it would otherwise be and might force people to time it accordingly. Cloaking wouldn't be the clear advantage that it is right now.
Another possibility would be to give Feds (and others) more opportunities for detection, to expose the drawbacks of cloaking more effectively. Perhaps attach a stealth penalty to some key buffs/abilities. Or add a perception bonus that kicks in immediately after firing off FAW/Scatter Volley/Torpedo Spread. Those attacks wouldn't hit an undetected cloaked ship, but could provide an opportunity to expose one in the vicinity.
Or even add a new tactical ability for firing torps that includes an AoE "depth charge" effect that allows you to shoot a torp and detonate it in an AoE. Triggering the ability could allow the player to put a 'marker' at an arbitrary point in space that modifies the next torpedo attack to detonate in an AoE explosion at that point.
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hartzilla: Tststs, a little bit more respect towards the Klingon Warriors...:D
And I think from a Romulan point of view it should still matter the Republic - if these so called Republic is indeed Romulan and not D'Tans little playground of future Vulcan-clones. Superior cloaking technology was the big advantage of the Romulan Empire, and any Romulan state should have an interest in having something special. As the histories shows alliances could change, peace could be broken and nothing is forever. So giving this advantage away for just flirting with the Federation would be stupid in the eyes of most Romulans (which remember the long tradition of hostility towards the humans). Not because they may WANT a war with the Federation or anything other. But because it would be in their interest that in the CASE of an war or lower level conflict Romulan ships have some advantage which may help to reduce other problems like lower numbers etc.
States have no friends, only interests, and they are the coldest of all monsters. Someone should tech D'Tan that truth - maybe with a BIG stick...;)
"And yet still better than a group of traitors who sold their own race out for power and are actively supporting the genocide of said race."
As it was said over and over again most of the TS did know nothing about the Hobus incident. And even on the top most people had no clue in which way the Hobus-thing would went. They even sell less their people away as D'Tan do, who let his people fight and die and BOTH sides of s war between Federation and Klingons, and on battlefield far abroad...
hartzilla: Tststs, a little bit more respect towards the Klingon Warriors...:D
And I think from a Romulan point of view it should still matter the Republic - if these so called Republic is indeed Romulan and not D'Tans little playground of future Vulcan-clones. Superior cloaking technology was the big advantage of the Romulan Empire, and any Romulan state should have an interest in having something special. As the histories shows alliances could change, peace could be broken and nothing is forever. So giving this advantage away for just flirting with the Federation would be stupid in the eyes of most Romulans (which remember the long tradition of hostility towards the humans). Not because they may WANT a war with the Federation or anything other. But because it would be in their interest that in the CASE of an war or lower level conflict Romulan ships have some advantage which may help to reduce other problems like lower numbers etc.
States have no friends, only interests, and they are the coldest of all monsters. Someone should tech D'Tan that truth - maybe with a BIG stick...;)
"And yet still better than a group of traitors who sold their own race out for power and are actively supporting the genocide of said race."
As it was said over and over again most of the TS did know nothing about the Hobus incident. And even on the top most people had no clue in which way the Hobus-thing would went. They even sell less their people away as D'Tan do, who let his people fight and die and BOTH sides of s war between Federation and Klingons, and on battlefield far abroad...
And yet it was the Tal Shiar who served Crateris and Virinat to the Elachi on a platter....
Recently playing thru a Rom character...in the lvl 20th mission the RSE rem ant plants bombs at Khitomer to stop the alliance between the Red/RR/KDF...I am pretty sure that's where the treaty melted
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Well, given the fact that this worlds try to avoid the rule of the Empire you could argue if they had not broken the peace with Empire first. That mean not that it is justified, but the Empire was in a war-modus, batteling both foreign and internal foes, so they grabbed any assitance they could get. Second it was Hakeevs forces who did the attac on Virinat - surely in the believe that the world is part of the Republican movement and D'Tans rebellion. That say little about the complete TS, and even less about the TS after Sela was kidnapped and Hakeev killed.
khan5000: Than this should have been declared (what it was not, as far as I know). Second - if D'Tan would be a real leader of the Romulan people (many surely would say) he should have tried to restore as much from the Empires right as he could. Crying "I am a nice Romulan, get me out!" (of that troubble) did not made him very convincing. Nice little puppet for his Vulcan masters, but not as a leader of the Romulan people as nation.
do you really think that the presence of an alien fleet inside Romulan territory would go undetected by the rest of the Tal Shiar?
Well no... but an alien fleet hiding in subspace and striking from there... yeah. Couple that with Hakeev and his minions "correcting" the Tal Shiar's files left and right and it wouldnt be hard to hide fleet movements, or alter them to report "dissident" vessels
khan5000: Than this should have been declared (what it was not, as far as I know). Second - if D'Tan would be a real leader of the Romulan people (many surely would say) he should have tried to restore as much from the Empires right as he could. Crying "I am a nice Romulan, get me out!" (of that troubble) did not made him very convincing. Nice little puppet for his Vulcan masters, but not as a leader of the Romulan people as nation.
That's not how things work. When there is a change of government from one that had a negative standing you try to do things opposite of the old government. Did Germany in WW2 try to copy it's WW2 rights as possible? Is Iraq still holding people to treaties and relationships founded by Saddam? How much of England's rights were maintained by the Colonies?
D'Tan trying to reclaim the rights of an insidious regime would have signaled to the Fed and KDF that he was going to be just like the RSE. That is the whole purpose of making it a republic instead of an empire and working with it's former enemies.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
khan5000: Germany after WW II and Iraq after Saddam are in my opinion bad examples. Both cases you mentioned the government were removed from OUTSIDE and a new one installed with huge foreign influence (in the case of Germany not only one but two governments). It is another thing (very often) when it comes to internal regime change. The Russian Government which ruled directly after the Februar-Revolution 1917 did hold on to the promisses and treaties the former ruler had made. The Bolsheviki did decide to go another way after THEIR revolution in October/November, but that was of course their decision, not automatic. Surely not the only case in which it want that way (also there may be examples which fit with your point of view - but also others).
But you made a good point - D'Tan may make this only to calm the KDF and Fed. So he IS indeed the traitor he seem to be (or at least many will call him so). It is not his job do please foreign regimes, but to serve the best of the Romulan people - all of them. He might think bowing towards foreigners is the best way, but many Romulans will highly disagree. He seems to prefer to bring his "new society" foreward and beeing liked by others, but this is not good if you want to stand for more than just your bunch of insurgents.
If he want to rule all the Romulans and stand for him he must behave like a heir to the Empire - not still a leader of a illegal rebellion. Perhaps he still has not growing up from that.
Did not the RSE attacked the Feddies, that effectively void the treaty. Beside, be greatful that the we just use normal sensor and EM-cloak instead of phase-cloacks.
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So could say the Defiant was getting INTEL for both the Feds and Romulans? So it is ok when Ben "The Pimp Hand" Sisko does it but not everyone else?
Yes serious. WoW, ToR while classes are similar if not exact they also have totally unique missions that can give a different faction a flavour that attracts other players. In STO the play quickly becomes the exact same missions for everyone. So faction identity needs to be based on the differences in those factions themselves. Dilute them all to one homogenized set and you need not have the factions at all.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
It was an agreement between the Federation and Romulans. Since all contact to the Dominion ended in failure. So they used it to find out who was behind the Dominion and at least try to talk to them for some kind of possible peace. That too failed however what knowledge they got from that did help them later when war came. So therefor this agreement was done properly and correctly since the treaty was between these 2 groups to start with.
The others did it with treachery or corruption. Like the Pegasus and Insurrection mess. Which people got killed or ended up in court for their actions. And this was not part of any agreement, thus violated the treaty. And was illegal from the start. This is similar to "Moonshine". Yes its illegal, and you will get into trouble. You can get away with it until your caught. That is when your wrong doing will be judged in court.
Now Kirk did it to capture the device. That did gave Star Fleet a better idea on what they was dealing with. So that is more spoils of war. As all sides do it. Even in World War II. The Americans stole or captured all kinds of stuff to study. And even today the Americans still do it. So that is common and different situtation.
So yes, Sisko did it correctly and was fine. The others did it for other reasons and paid the price for their wrong doings.
As for the game, it don't really matter. The Devs are making a game for us to enjoy. That is what matters. It would be better if they did story to explain why they going this route. At least they did when the Defiant got it on the show.
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I'm sorry, did the Treaty of Algeron also forbid cannons?
In case you kinda missed it this thread was pulled so far off of the topic of that treaty as to be totally unrelated for the last half dozen pages or more. No the cannons have nothing to do with that but really fed cruisers and sci ships with cannons? Aside from the Avenger, a purpose built warship, where does that happen? These arent even warships they're supposed to be IntOps vessels but they get cloaks AND cannons.... Frankly the only one that should get that imo is the Klingon design considering these are SPY SHIPS, tho I can see the fed escort as well since all their escorts can.
This thread has always been about the cloaks. You're the only one to talk about their cannons.
Also the Vesta ships can equip the Aux DHCs. This isn't without precedence.
Cryptic wanted to destroyed the Romulan Star Empire and they did...
Captain Geko is Pro-Fed therefor he created a Romulan Puppet's Republic to serve the Evul Federation and their subtle thrist to conquer the Galaxy!
oakland4life: Seem you are right, but perhaps the latest betrayal will support the deperate fight of more and more "Romulans" to end the reign of that Federation-puppet D'Tan...:D
You're completely right, sir. This is actually one of the most troubling things with the direction Cryptic has taken with story missions IMHO.
It also kills my will to play multifaction and use alts, since I'll be experiencing the exact same story content - and the story content is sth. I enjoy most. I hope this will not be case with the DR story content, but given the experience I'm not holding my breath.
Sorry for being off-topic with this reply, btw.
no worries, this got pulled pretty off topic many pages ago.
I pretty much agree tho, we wont be seeing much faction/fraction specific stories but just more homogenized blegh and romulans will probably still be referred to as Federation/Klingons for it
They reneged on Okeg's pledge when the Khitomer Accords broke down in 2399, and Starfleet started deploying cloak-capable, and equipped, military-oriented vessels in anticipation of all out war with the Klingon Empire.
The Star Empire being in the crapper had nothing to do with the Federation's reversal on it's policies relating to cloaking technology. And I seriously doubt that the Republic could ever convince the Federation to renew the treaty, consider the state of warfare that exist across the galaxy currently.
Neither the Federation executive, or Starfleet, is that stupid.
You assume the Republic cares about the federation having cloaks like the petulant children of Qo'nos seem to.
And yet still better than a group of traitors who sold their own race out for power and are actively supporting the genocide of said race.
I do agree with the idea that maps could have environmental hazards that negate cloaks (or any other game mechanic) and which reduces tactical options for one person and increases them for another, based purely on maneuvering around and through them.
I do not agree that cloaking should be difficult in all PvP maps. It's an interesting tactical option that can provide spice to an encounter, if it's done right. If there's a problem, it's that the Federation players by-and-large lack enough interesting tactical options of their own... and that there are no real drawbacks to a decloaking Alpha strike.
Perhaps aside from knocking shields and energy weapons offline, cloaks ought to penalize weapon and engine power levels while cloaked. That way, when you decloak, your power levels take a second or two to return to normal. You can still get off a buffed strike, but the first volley won't be as devastating as it would otherwise be and might force people to time it accordingly. Cloaking wouldn't be the clear advantage that it is right now.
Another possibility would be to give Feds (and others) more opportunities for detection, to expose the drawbacks of cloaking more effectively. Perhaps attach a stealth penalty to some key buffs/abilities. Or add a perception bonus that kicks in immediately after firing off FAW/Scatter Volley/Torpedo Spread. Those attacks wouldn't hit an undetected cloaked ship, but could provide an opportunity to expose one in the vicinity.
Or even add a new tactical ability for firing torps that includes an AoE "depth charge" effect that allows you to shoot a torp and detonate it in an AoE. Triggering the ability could allow the player to put a 'marker' at an arbitrary point in space that modifies the next torpedo attack to detonate in an AoE explosion at that point.
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And I think from a Romulan point of view it should still matter the Republic - if these so called Republic is indeed Romulan and not D'Tans little playground of future Vulcan-clones. Superior cloaking technology was the big advantage of the Romulan Empire, and any Romulan state should have an interest in having something special. As the histories shows alliances could change, peace could be broken and nothing is forever. So giving this advantage away for just flirting with the Federation would be stupid in the eyes of most Romulans (which remember the long tradition of hostility towards the humans). Not because they may WANT a war with the Federation or anything other. But because it would be in their interest that in the CASE of an war or lower level conflict Romulan ships have some advantage which may help to reduce other problems like lower numbers etc.
States have no friends, only interests, and they are the coldest of all monsters. Someone should tech D'Tan that truth - maybe with a BIG stick...;)
"And yet still better than a group of traitors who sold their own race out for power and are actively supporting the genocide of said race."
As it was said over and over again most of the TS did know nothing about the Hobus incident. And even on the top most people had no clue in which way the Hobus-thing would went. They even sell less their people away as D'Tan do, who let his people fight and die and BOTH sides of s war between Federation and Klingons, and on battlefield far abroad...
My character Tsin'xing
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Well, given the fact that this worlds try to avoid the rule of the Empire you could argue if they had not broken the peace with Empire first. That mean not that it is justified, but the Empire was in a war-modus, batteling both foreign and internal foes, so they grabbed any assitance they could get. Second it was Hakeevs forces who did the attac on Virinat - surely in the believe that the world is part of the Republican movement and D'Tans rebellion. That say little about the complete TS, and even less about the TS after Sela was kidnapped and Hakeev killed.
khan5000: Than this should have been declared (what it was not, as far as I know). Second - if D'Tan would be a real leader of the Romulan people (many surely would say) he should have tried to restore as much from the Empires right as he could. Crying "I am a nice Romulan, get me out!" (of that troubble) did not made him very convincing. Nice little puppet for his Vulcan masters, but not as a leader of the Romulan people as nation.
My character Tsin'xing
Well no... but an alien fleet hiding in subspace and striking from there... yeah. Couple that with Hakeev and his minions "correcting" the Tal Shiar's files left and right and it wouldnt be hard to hide fleet movements, or alter them to report "dissident" vessels
That's not how things work. When there is a change of government from one that had a negative standing you try to do things opposite of the old government. Did Germany in WW2 try to copy it's WW2 rights as possible? Is Iraq still holding people to treaties and relationships founded by Saddam? How much of England's rights were maintained by the Colonies?
D'Tan trying to reclaim the rights of an insidious regime would have signaled to the Fed and KDF that he was going to be just like the RSE. That is the whole purpose of making it a republic instead of an empire and working with it's former enemies.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
But you made a good point - D'Tan may make this only to calm the KDF and Fed. So he IS indeed the traitor he seem to be (or at least many will call him so). It is not his job do please foreign regimes, but to serve the best of the Romulan people - all of them. He might think bowing towards foreigners is the best way, but many Romulans will highly disagree. He seems to prefer to bring his "new society" foreward and beeing liked by others, but this is not good if you want to stand for more than just your bunch of insurgents.
If he want to rule all the Romulans and stand for him he must behave like a heir to the Empire - not still a leader of a illegal rebellion. Perhaps he still has not growing up from that.
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful