amount of content, graphical quality, marginal control and number of bugs are all quantitative. subjective quantities are quantitative not quantitative. subjective is not a synonym for qualitative. you are using the verbiage of dialectics but doing so wrongly.
in plain english, sto is less, lower quality, more expensive, and it holds the game back from its full potential.
First of all, "graphical quality" is absolutely subjective, unless you're talking about polygon quantities or some such. And could you define what you mean by "marginal control?"
As to your other examples...since you refuse to name them, it's hard to address your assertions. If I assume, however, that the "Irvine" MMO is WoW, then you're just wrong:
MMO #1, produced by a company based in Irvine, CA
-$50 to unlock all content
-$15/mo
-No marginal cost for any functional content
-Some vanity items for ~$15/ea
-At least 500% more content than STO
-Better graphics than STO
-Basically no software bugs and very few hardware bugs (occasional issues with some TCP/IP configurations, Macs, and Nvidia video cards)
$50 to unlock all content? Nope. It's at $70 right now (battle chest + Cata + Pandaria). The number fluctuates with sales, etc., but normally it's at least $70.
Please define "functional content." There are no missions, fleet actions, STFs, or anything other activities in STO that require money to unlock.
You're right on the "more content" thing (no surprise for a game that's been around so long).
Better graphics? Oh come on. Seriously?
Basically no software bugs? Um...well I don't think so (I've certainly encountered some). But arguing about # of bugs is silly since you can't actually quantify how many EITHER have (neither company releases statistics along those lines).
You're building a house of cards on the wobbliest of tables.
"amount of content, graphical quality, marginal control and number of bugs are all quantitative"
Cool. Please give us the number of bugs in each of the products you are comparing.
Also the numeric evaluation of the graphical quality of same and how it is calculated.
And also the numbers for amount of content.
Oh wait - you don't have those numbers? Then your analysis is just estimates and hypotheticals. So glad you don't do *my* company's books.
"subjective quantities are quantitative not quantitative"
ROFL.
so if you say that one peach cobbler has more peaches in it than the other peach cobbler, do you actually have to count each individual peach in the cobbler? or is it just obvious based on common observation? people make subjective quantifications all the time, if they didn't, we couldn't get by in life.
or a better analogy. if I say in-n-out burger is fresher than mcdonalds, or higher quality, do I have to quantifiy that? use my freshometer? or is it obvious to anyone with functioning taste buds?
you're arguing against common sense because the issue really is that black and white. sto is lower quality, more expensive, it holds the game back and the only way that PWE's defenders can rebut that simple reality is by arguing against reality itself.
Looking this over, it is a nice bundle. There are four Tier 5 ships ($25 x4), one Tier 4 ship ($20), one Tier 3 ship ($15), one Tier 2 ship ($10), one Tier 1 ship ($5), and one fighter ($5) on the ship side. There's also Playable reman (free to Tier V romulan rep players), liberated borg remans ($6?), a duty officer mini pack (~$1.50?), 30 Master keys ($30), a Reman outfit ($5.50), and 3 Titles (No idea how much those would cost).
Assuming normal Cstore costs that's $100 + $20 + $15 + $10 + $5 + $5 + $6? + $1.50? + $30 + $5.50 for a total of $198. For all but 2 of the items, there is a clear precedent for Cstore pricing (for example Tier V ships always cost $25). I don't see why so many players are complaining about the pack's expenses. If one were to buy all of this stuff from the Cstore directly, they would be spending at least Cryptic's listed $181 value they placed on the pack.
Tell us again the difference between price and value?
price is how much a product costs, value is the utility associated with said product
an mmo's utility is its fun factor as determined by its components, graphics, gameplay, content, etc. on such a basis, sto is inferior. it is flawed but not worthless; it needs a price cut and major ingame improvements. all of which is hindered by PWE's efforts to bully the playerbase into paying more for less.
so if you say that one peach cobbler has more peaches in it than the other peach cobbler, do you actually have to count each individual peach in the cobbler? or is it just obvious based on common observation? people make subjective quantifications all the time, if they didn't, we couldn't get by in life.
or a better analogy. if I say in-n-out burger is fresher than mcdonalds, or higher quality, do I have to quantifiy that? use my freshometer? or is it obvious to anyone with functioning taste buds?
you're arguing against common sense because the issue really is that black and white. sto is lower quality, more expensive, it holds the game back and the only way that PWE's defenders can rebut that simple reality is by arguing against reality itself.
I just think your judgement is not reliable, and I would rather trust the judgement of a brain-dead, rabid squirrel who had been hit on the head by a speeding car then I would trust yours.
Since you are very unwilling to offer any proof of your observations, I don't see how you can persuade anyone to think that you are a valid and objective observer.
And you say again, you want cheaper items because you don't want to pay more for them.
Well I too am too poor to buy the pack. But its not the pack that is overpriced, its our paychecks that are too small.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
so if you say that one peach cobbler has more peaches in it than the other peach cobbler, do you actually have to count each individual peach in the cobbler? or is it just obvious based on common observation? people make subjective quantifications all the time, if they didn't, we couldn't get by in life.
or a better analogy. if I say in-n-out burger is fresher than mcdonalds, or higher quality, do I have to quantifiy that? use my freshometer? or is it obvious to anyone with functioning taste buds?
you're arguing against common sense because the issue really is that black and white. sto is lower quality, more expensive, it holds the game back and the only way that PWE's defenders can rebut that simple reality is by arguing against reality itself.
Your analogies betray you.
In your first one (the peach cobbler) ABSOLUTELY you need to quantify it. If some guy on some forum just SAYS that one has more, well, I'm not taking you at your word. If one can lists 6 oz and the other lists 12, well, that's different.
As for the burgers, YES YOU DO. Someone else could say that McDonald's has fresher or higher quality burgers. Are you suggesting that taste is objective? Because that's just hilarious.
On the other hand, if you can demonstrate that the burgers are fresher (e.g. In-and-Out openly states they never freeze their burgers, whereas McDonald's admits they DO freeze them), then that's fine. ("Quality" is a different story; it's a vague term used here.)
You keep making assertions with zero evidence, and when challenged, you say that anyone who disagrees is clearly arguing against reality. That would get you kicked off a grade-school debate team.
Funny thing is, for every quantitative factor that can possibly be accounted for in determining "graphical quality", EQ2 was a universally-superior product to WoW. Higher poly counts, higher resolution textures, more detailed skeletal models, higher draw distances, better graphical scaling and dynamic framerate adjustment, more detailed animations...not to mention actually having graphical bloom at launch.
EQ2 was criticized for poor graphics, and WoW was universally lauded for its. It boiled down to art direction -- EQ2's art was uninspired and drag, WoW's was not. That's a qualitative factor.
Somebody getting uppity about canon? No problem! Just take a deep breath, and repeat after me:
im going to say this to all the CDer yall can make this thing sound good all you want to but the thing is yall assume every one want's every ship want's all that remen TRIBBLE
so you can brake it down all you like not every one want all the stuff that comes in that big pack they would have been better off to let us build the pack and price it from there
price is how much a product costs, value is the utility associated with said product
an mmo's utility is its fun factor as determined by its components, graphics, gameplay, content, etc. on such a basis, sto is inferior. it is flawed but not worthless; it needs a price cut and major ingame improvements. all of which is hindered by PWE's efforts to bully the playerbase into paying more for less.
You ever going to explain how a free to play game is too expensive?
Also, fun factor isn't objective, it's subjective. I play other MMOs (including WoW), but I have more fun in STO, so I get more value for my money spent on STO than on WoW.
im going to say this to all the CDer yall can make this thing sound good all you want to but the thing is yall assume every one want's every ship want's all that remen TRIBBLE
so you can brake it down all you like not every one want all the stuff that comes in that big pack they would have been better off to let us build the pack and price it from there
We yalll don't assume anything. For the people who are planning on playing Roms, and multiple Roms, the C-Store bundle is a good financial deal. For players who are only going to play 1-2 Roms it's better to just buy the C-Store items as you want them.
STO is about my Liberated Borg Federation Captain with his Breen 1st Officer, Jem'Hadar Tactical Officer, Liberated Borg Engineering Officer, Android Ops Officer, Photonic Science Officer, Gorn Science Officer, and Reman Medical Officer jumping into their Jem'Hadar Carrier and flying off to do missions for the new Romulan Empire. But for some players allowing a T5 Connie to be used breaks the canon in the game.
You keep making assertions with zero evidence, and when challenged, you say that anyone who disagrees is clearly arguing against reality. That would get you kicked off a grade-school debate team.
so if you say that one peach cobbler has more peaches in it than the other peach cobbler, do you actually have to count each individual peach in the cobbler? or is it just obvious based on common observation? people make subjective quantifications all the time, if they didn't, we couldn't get by in life.
or a better analogy. if I say in-n-out burger is fresher than mcdonalds, or higher quality, do I have to quantifiy that? use my freshometer? or is it obvious to anyone with functioning taste buds?
you're arguing against common sense because the issue really is that black and white. sto is lower quality, more expensive, it holds the game back and the only way that PWE's defenders can rebut that simple reality is by arguing against reality itself.
"or a better analogy. if I say in-n-out burger is fresher than mcdonalds, or higher quality, do I have to quantifiy that? use my freshometer? or is it obvious to anyone with functioning taste buds?"
You absolutely have to quantify that if you insist that it is a quantitative comparison.
And your absurdity of "freshometer" aside, you could easily quantify that by documenting things like time from farm to table, storage temperatures, freshly ground hamburger vs frozen, etc... But all that would involve actual work, as opposed to bloviating based on absurd positions on an internet forum.
You were the one who insisted that your comparisons are quantitative. It's not unreasonable to insist that you back up your assertions.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
We yalll don't assume anything. For the people who are planning on playing Roms, and multiple Roms, the C-Store bundle is a good financial deal. For players who are only going to play 1-2 Roms it's better to just buy the C-Store items as you want them.
I plan on rom being my main and have 3 of them still would not use every thing in that pack or half of it so still don't see why we cant build the pack and price it from there so again brake it down all you like
This thread is like a train wreck...I want to look away, but I can't. At least it's keeping me entertained while I eat lunch.
It's like a freshman Econ major escaped from his cage and the sheriff's deputies are closing in...
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
Unlike most Retrofits (VA ships), the T'Varo Warbird Retrofit and Dhelan Warbird Retrofit can be flown at Rear Admiral. Stats will be posted in an upcoming dev blog.
Cheers,
Brandon =/\=
So that sounds like the T'Varo and Dhelan retrofits are equivalent to the (level 40) standard Tier 5 ships like the (non-MVAM) Prometheus Advanced Escort, Star Cruiser, and DSSV; and not like the C-Store Tier 5(+1) ships.
You did call me a fool. Which in a subjective world, can be viewed as a graver insult then me not trusting your judgement.
Also, I said nothing about the size of the player base. I said that you have no proof that many of STO's playerbase plays those games. That has nothing to do with the actual playerbase size of the games themselves.
I never called you a fool. I made a comparison between your posting style and that of paid lobbyists. prior to that I made a comparison between your premise and a way of thinking widely held to be foolish based on an idiom.
so you don't disagree with me that other mmos are objectively cheaper, better and more popular. okay, so how is your question relevant? are you saying that sto players exclusively play this game because they are dumb / have poor taste / whatever, so they don't play better and cheaper mmos?
Is there a way I can pay through steam-wallet since I go through it to buy zen I dont use paypal or skrill and im not about to give them info u already have please let me know soon would like to get thank u;)
The price for packs are way off, I bought the STO CE for $69US and now you want $125US for pack, kind of ripoff. If the price was maybe $35/$50 range maybe but I wont be buying this pack if it that price.
It's funny, I thought about that too. My only rebuttal is that the zen is getting purchased with real money sooner or later. The exception being the stipend of life time subscribers (300 dollars with a 5 dollar stipend means it would take 5 years to gain in stipends the cost back and start making a net gain).
However, if people are buying life time subscriptions for the stipend I think the present value of 300 dollars would still be a net gain for Cryptic :P. The only thing I can think of at this point is the fact that they have the occasional zen sale which they don't want to be put towards the price. If you are already discounting an item by a certain percent (they claim it's worth $181, but I feel that's debatable ) then I can understand why they don't want to allow for the extra 15% free zen sales they occasionally do.
Comments
First of all, "graphical quality" is absolutely subjective, unless you're talking about polygon quantities or some such. And could you define what you mean by "marginal control?"
As to your other examples...since you refuse to name them, it's hard to address your assertions. If I assume, however, that the "Irvine" MMO is WoW, then you're just wrong:
$50 to unlock all content? Nope. It's at $70 right now (battle chest + Cata + Pandaria). The number fluctuates with sales, etc., but normally it's at least $70.
Please define "functional content." There are no missions, fleet actions, STFs, or anything other activities in STO that require money to unlock.
You're right on the "more content" thing (no surprise for a game that's been around so long).
Better graphics? Oh come on. Seriously?
Basically no software bugs? Um...well I don't think so (I've certainly encountered some). But arguing about # of bugs is silly since you can't actually quantify how many EITHER have (neither company releases statistics along those lines).
You're building a house of cards on the wobbliest of tables.
so if you say that one peach cobbler has more peaches in it than the other peach cobbler, do you actually have to count each individual peach in the cobbler? or is it just obvious based on common observation? people make subjective quantifications all the time, if they didn't, we couldn't get by in life.
or a better analogy. if I say in-n-out burger is fresher than mcdonalds, or higher quality, do I have to quantifiy that? use my freshometer? or is it obvious to anyone with functioning taste buds?
you're arguing against common sense because the issue really is that black and white. sto is lower quality, more expensive, it holds the game back and the only way that PWE's defenders can rebut that simple reality is by arguing against reality itself.
Tell us again the difference between price and value?
Spock's Brain.
Assuming normal Cstore costs that's $100 + $20 + $15 + $10 + $5 + $5 + $6? + $1.50? + $30 + $5.50 for a total of $198. For all but 2 of the items, there is a clear precedent for Cstore pricing (for example Tier V ships always cost $25). I don't see why so many players are complaining about the pack's expenses. If one were to buy all of this stuff from the Cstore directly, they would be spending at least Cryptic's listed $181 value they placed on the pack.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
price is how much a product costs, value is the utility associated with said product
an mmo's utility is its fun factor as determined by its components, graphics, gameplay, content, etc. on such a basis, sto is inferior. it is flawed but not worthless; it needs a price cut and major ingame improvements. all of which is hindered by PWE's efforts to bully the playerbase into paying more for less.
and possibly the reman ship skins. as we dont know yet if T5 Rep remans come with the skins as well, or if you gotta buy the pack to get the skins.
I just think your judgement is not reliable, and I would rather trust the judgement of a brain-dead, rabid squirrel who had been hit on the head by a speeding car then I would trust yours.
Since you are very unwilling to offer any proof of your observations, I don't see how you can persuade anyone to think that you are a valid and objective observer.
And you say again, you want cheaper items because you don't want to pay more for them.
Well I too am too poor to buy the pack. But its not the pack that is overpriced, its our paychecks that are too small.
price =/= value
I would want to buy the remans anyway ... but what I want to do is get the skins too
I hope STO get's better ...
Your analogies betray you.
In your first one (the peach cobbler) ABSOLUTELY you need to quantify it. If some guy on some forum just SAYS that one has more, well, I'm not taking you at your word. If one can lists 6 oz and the other lists 12, well, that's different.
As for the burgers, YES YOU DO. Someone else could say that McDonald's has fresher or higher quality burgers. Are you suggesting that taste is objective? Because that's just hilarious.
On the other hand, if you can demonstrate that the burgers are fresher (e.g. In-and-Out openly states they never freeze their burgers, whereas McDonald's admits they DO freeze them), then that's fine. ("Quality" is a different story; it's a vague term used here.)
You keep making assertions with zero evidence, and when challenged, you say that anyone who disagrees is clearly arguing against reality. That would get you kicked off a grade-school debate team.
Funny thing is, for every quantitative factor that can possibly be accounted for in determining "graphical quality", EQ2 was a universally-superior product to WoW. Higher poly counts, higher resolution textures, more detailed skeletal models, higher draw distances, better graphical scaling and dynamic framerate adjustment, more detailed animations...not to mention actually having graphical bloom at launch.
EQ2 was criticized for poor graphics, and WoW was universally lauded for its. It boiled down to art direction -- EQ2's art was uninspired and drag, WoW's was not. That's a qualitative factor.
Spock's Brain.
so you can brake it down all you like not every one want all the stuff that comes in that big pack they would have been better off to let us build the pack and price it from there
system Lord Baal is dead
You ever going to explain how a free to play game is too expensive?
Also, fun factor isn't objective, it's subjective. I play other MMOs (including WoW), but I have more fun in STO, so I get more value for my money spent on STO than on WoW.
"or a better analogy. if I say in-n-out burger is fresher than mcdonalds, or higher quality, do I have to quantifiy that? use my freshometer? or is it obvious to anyone with functioning taste buds?"
You absolutely have to quantify that if you insist that it is a quantitative comparison.
And your absurdity of "freshometer" aside, you could easily quantify that by documenting things like time from farm to table, storage temperatures, freshly ground hamburger vs frozen, etc... But all that would involve actual work, as opposed to bloviating based on absurd positions on an internet forum.
You were the one who insisted that your comparisons are quantitative. It's not unreasonable to insist that you back up your assertions.
Name the MMOs or stop bringing them up, because other than (I'm pretty sure) WoW, some of us have no idea what you're referring to.
And YES, I'm sure WoW has way more subs. I'll grant you that one. It doesn't help your overall argument in the least, but there you go.
You can still play Romulan for free, you just have to use the base free ships.
I plan on rom being my main and have 3 of them still would not use every thing in that pack or half of it so still don't see why we cant build the pack and price it from there so again brake it down all you like
system Lord Baal is dead
It's like a freshman Econ major escaped from his cage and the sheriff's deputies are closing in...
...which is a matter of a would-be player's opinion.
...of which this statement is.
Spock's Brain.
So that sounds like the T'Varo and Dhelan retrofits are equivalent to the (level 40) standard Tier 5 ships like the (non-MVAM) Prometheus Advanced Escort, Star Cruiser, and DSSV; and not like the C-Store Tier 5(+1) ships.
Raptr profile
Bellevue is GW2.
I never called you a fool. I made a comparison between your posting style and that of paid lobbyists. prior to that I made a comparison between your premise and a way of thinking widely held to be foolish based on an idiom.
so you don't disagree with me that other mmos are objectively cheaper, better and more popular. okay, so how is your question relevant? are you saying that sto players exclusively play this game because they are dumb / have poor taste / whatever, so they don't play better and cheaper mmos?
And seoul is...
I'll give you a hint. TRIBBLE.
However, if people are buying life time subscriptions for the stipend I think the present value of 300 dollars would still be a net gain for Cryptic :P. The only thing I can think of at this point is the fact that they have the occasional zen sale which they don't want to be put towards the price. If you are already discounting an item by a certain percent (they claim it's worth $181, but I feel that's debatable
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