I've tested out leveling up a rank 9 to a rank 10. Yes, it is MILLIONS in AD cheaper than it is currently.
The difference is now you need:
1) 2x epic marks
2) actually level up the enchant
I used I think 130ish shards to get it ready for the next level. this cost me maybe 200k. That's the key here, only 200k. Instead of buying another 2x rank 9 for 4.5million I save all that money and spend a little on shards
The hidden factor here is the marks. Since it was the preview shard I bought them for a price in the ah that will be far different from when the changes go live. I highly doubt they will cost over 2million, so in the end the new changes result in MUCH cheaper and more affordable enchants
The one thing to be determined is the drop rate of the marks. are they items that will be easily farmable from dungeon bosses and have enough availability in the ah that they arnt too expensive? or will they be like the epic drops in MC and therefore cost big AD because of rarity
That explain how you get the high end marks. And they only cost you 5k ad(thayan key to run any minidungeon you will)! You only need to run the dungeon again after you get the daily for it from knox at the stated day to get the listed reward from the treasure.
Grey Stoke I just did a tally on what it takes to make a R4 stone to a R10. 4 small@270points/5 med@540p/182 big@2160p / 4-M Reagents@25k AD each & 5-G Reagents@100k AD each & others, (plus) 25 wards, and just to get to a R10 you have to double it each step of the way as you need two R4 to make a R5-two R5 to make a R6 and so on. Just to make ONE R-10 stone cost me over 1,200,000+ AD and approx. 420 to 500 stones to finish the final {NEW} REFINING PROCESS. Now times that by two (x2) and the fact that it took me two hours to complete to make ONE R-10 stone. AGAIN, Whoever made the comment they just made it easier and cheaper was WAY OFF THE POINT!
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited November 2013
In practice, who is going to sit down and do all the refining to go from a 4 to a 10 in one shot? If you feed your enchantments as you collect things while adventuring, I doubt you'll notice much.
It's not like standing around and fusing enchantments wasn't a big time sink, plus every individual fusion was a potential point of failure.
As for the refining points, shards are a nice meaty and inexpensive way to feed your stuff. All the Sharandar shards I was never going to use for anything are good for something now. I wouldn't buy enchantments for feeding to others, but it's something to do with everything I pick up.
Again, you sat down and did this all at once, which means you aren't assessing how it will be like in actual realistic gameplay, unless you really are all about instant gratification - which generally means you pay the premium for it.
sereenawindMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
Finding the marks needed to put together isn't working. I have more enchantments and wards in my inventory now then I did using the 4 to combine to upgrade! I now have MANY more enchantments and wards then I ever had in my inventory as well as other upgrade items because I can't find enough upgrade marks. Number 3's and 4's require a Mark of union?? I have found thus far "1" (ONE)of them and I open every skill box I can. I even purposely look around just for them hoping to get the marks I need because my inventory is so full of 2's,3's and 4's as well as the gems etc I now no longer have any extra room in my inventory for anything else! I am sorry if you don't consider it a bug but I do! it isn't working unless I can get enough marks of power and Union to have some inventory room!
May the Good Lord keep you always in His Loving Arms
Finding the marks needed to put together isn't working. I have more enchantments and wards in my inventory now then I did using the 4 to combine to upgrade! I now have MANY more enchantments and wards then I ever had in my inventory as well as other upgrade items because I can't find enough upgrade marks. Number 3's and 4's require a Mark of union?? I have found thus far "1" (ONE)of them and I open every skill box I can. I even purposely look around just for them hoping to get the marks I need because my inventory is so full of 2's,3's and 4's as well as the gems etc I now no longer have any extra room in my inventory for anything else! I am sorry if you don't consider it a bug but I do! it isn't working unless I can get enough marks of power and Union to have some inventory room!
i got 5 marks in one of my adventure boxes from leveling up. i've got a level 16 hunter ranger on the preview shard. you can also buy marks from the wondrous bazaar.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited November 2013
. . . . . With the new system, I am using over 70 less Coalescent Wards to go from Shard to Perfect. The Marks drop from bosses and nodes and such. There will be "cheap" keys to run the delves outside of delve hour and still get the chest. The Wards can be gotten for free (Celestial Coins). All it takes now is time, which I am happy with.
. . . . . So all in all, this system is much better for the casual player and a great deal better for the hardcore players. The only reservation was the mandatory AD Upgrade cost, which has been removed now. After much testing, I like the current system far better (except for the Wpn/Armor enchants, which are bugged still and have an AD cost, which will be fixed).
According to the tooltip for preservation wards, they are only supposed to be lost on a FAILED upgrade attempt. I posted earlier in this thread that I lost P. Wards on successful attempts as well, and only had one reply from a non-dev that they are supposed to be lost (which makes them rather pointless). Is this the case? I've been through 40+ pages of posts for the system and have not seen a dev post stating that P. Wards are lost no matter the outcome of the upgrade.
I have 6 P. Wards in inventory at the start. I had success on the first try, and then have 5 P. Wards after. So which bug to report - losing a P. Ward on a successful attempt, or bad tooltip saying that P. Wards aren't lost on a successful attempt?
Except for being able to remove enchantments from gear with gold instead of AD, I prefer the old system much better. Those "Marks" are a pain to get a hold of, and they make the new system useless to me.
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I like the flexability of the new system but not the resource cost.
I think the extra enchant required as a reagent should be removed on rank 7 and above enchants.
I also feel that you should be able to use either a coal ward OR the reagents to do the final upgrade and that it should be 100% success unless you choose to not use either.
The fact that you can now quest for the reagents is great, i just think you are already pooring enough enchants into refining high rank enchants that an extra one as a reagent is excessive.
Bear with me a moment while I drift off topic, I'll get back on real soon. I've noticed playing the ranger class that movement through the maps is slower when specialized as a hawkeye archer than a melee combatant. This leads to more kills, more drops and discovery of more kits which further leads to increased inventory space used. Can be regulated with the artifact that summons a merchant so little complaint there. What I have seen that is more difficult to regulate is that running from level 1 to level 52 right now without daily skirmishes or dungeon runs I haven't gathered over 10k in AD yet (not really sure why I collect gold other than kits and potions that I rarely buy) but have multiple runestones in my inventory that have been refined and awaiting upgrading to R5-R6. I understand trying to slowdown achievement of perfect gear but either runestone drops have to become rarer or reagents needed to upgrade the stones need to become easier to attain. What works very nicely is gathering and refining as you go, you pick up 4x R1 and 2x R3 refine it to that R5 you're already carrying around with you, it drastically reduces needed inventory space. The needed reagents takes up space again that might be solved by being able to keep them stored in a bank. Fill your bank slots with reagents and leave your carrying inventory empty but access the reagents automatically when upgrading. Overall from what I'm able to compare (admitted I haven't been playing long) I do find the new system easier to use.
- Gold to remove enchants
- Using different types of enchants to level
- Leveling enchant while slotted
However the addition of catalysts just seems to over complicate the whole system.
In an early post a Dev talked about the old system being too frustrating so people weren't using it. This seems to make the problem worse. Now you rank up an enchant, get to the rank up point. Then realize you need another enchant the same level (for 8,9, and 10's) plus catalysts. So now you start ranking up another enchant which needs different catalysts, etc.
Seems like the system could be made much simpler by removing catalysts altogether and make a failed upgrade cost you X% (25%???) of your current RP's. So you just keep adding RP to your slotted enchant, you hit the upgrade point, you succeed it upgrades, you fail it goes back to 75% (or whatever). This would be a much simpler system to use.
Frankly, the reason I stopped bothering with enchants was because I had rank 7's in every slot and rank 8's didn't give enough of a bonus to make them worth the cost. This is due to the cost in enchants being exponential but the increase in stats nearly linear. Couple this with diminishing returns and you have little reason to bother. Under the current system you are looking at several million AD to gain a single percent of damage. Maybe consider increasing the benefit of 8,9, and 10's? To bring their cost/benefit ratio to a point where more will think it's worth it.
I haven't read the whole thread, but yes something like this. We feed our enchantments and then once they are full we have a chance to advance them to the next level, if the process fails, our enchantments lose a bit of what they have been fed and need to be fed some more. eezy peezy, what is all this catalyst and mark stuff, too complicated??
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shunterinoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
It should be obvious by now, reading this and all the other threads on the subject, that refining is still a huge problem for most players.
In particular the marks/reagents idea is pretty much universally despised. Just too unnecessarily complicated.
However, you guys have put a lot of work into it and maybe you think once it goes live people will warm up to it. That's you're right and good luck to you. I can see by how integrated into the Dread Spire region the whole Mark thing is that it would be a huge pain for you to get rid of them now, probably not possible before mod 2 goes live.
There is a compromise, though, and that's to keep the Marks just for upgrading artifacts and to switch enchants/runestones to a reagent-free model (where failure leads to loss of RP). You'll probably want to stick to your guns but on the off chance I thought I'd mention it.
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syka08Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
@kreatyve
If any of these are repeats, I apologize. I haven't been following this as closely as before. Feedback: Bug So I got around to poking this a bit more, and noticed that you cannot slot in enchantments from your overflow bag. Easy solution is just to move the enchantment into your regular bags once you have space, but I'm fairly sure it should work from any bag, right?
When first slotting enchantments of matching enchants, the x2 bonus text does not display. The extra RP is given (I'm pretty sure it is, at least). Then after the first refinement is done, the text indicating double RP shows should you have any matching enchants to slot in.
When starting with a fresh enchant, the display shows your first round of enchanting as "x RP over" for that enchant. Refining pushes past this and starts the RP bar properly.
Feedback: general Again, since I'm poking it with a more scrutinizing gaze, I noticed some of my enchantments were criting successful (thus giving more points). I Can't recall reading that in here, or seeing it, but that is a very nice added touch.
@kreatyve
If any of these are repeats, I apologize. I haven't been following this as closely as before. Feedback: Bug So I got around to poking this a bit more, and noticed that you cannot slot in enchantments from your overflow bag. Easy solution is just to move the enchantment into your regular bags once you have space, but I'm fairly sure it should work from any bag, right?
When first slotting enchantments of matching enchants, the x2 bonus text does not display. The extra RP is given (I'm pretty sure it is, at least). Then after the first refinement is done, the text indicating double RP shows should you have any matching enchants to slot in.
When starting with a fresh enchant, the display shows your first round of enchanting as "x RP over" for that enchant. Refining pushes past this and starts the RP bar properly.
Feedback: general Again, since I'm poking it with a more scrutinizing gaze, I noticed some of my enchantments were criting successful (thus giving more points). I Can't recall reading that in here, or seeing it, but that is a very nice added touch.
Your Feedback about the 'Bug' is false. The overflow bag is not a useable bag. So any things from it can't be used and that is good as it is. Avoid exploiting extraordinary slotfills.
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slambitMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 282Bounty Hunter
edited November 2013
How about folding that extra enchantment thats needed for the high lvl upgrade into a 2nd refinement point bar?
Or simply add the value to the existing rp bar, would free up that bag slot, and also reduce the marks needed to 1 per upgrade, i'd still lower the diamond price of those to 10-12k for the blue one and 35-50k for the purple one.
Feedback: general I just started messing around with the refinement process on the preview shard last night, and I was extremely disappointed to learn that in order to upgrade a rank 7 enchant to a rank 8 enchant I needed another rank 7 enchant! This is after I pumped a ton of enchants into it to "refine" it. I thought the point was to simplify the process and help free up bag/bank space? Now I still have to keep all the extra enchants to rank up multiples of everything.
I didn't bother reading all 21 pages of posts so if someone has covered this already that's great, but let me throw my opinion in and tell you that I think this is a terrible mechanic. This completely defeats the purpose of using refining points if I still have to create duplicates as catalyst to upgrade an enchantment. What is the reasoning behind this?
The fact that you can now quest for the reagents is great, i just think you are already pooring enough enchants into refining high rank enchants that an extra one as a reagent is excessive.
Exactly how, and where, do you quest for reagents? I haven't gotten a single one. And, if it requires doing dungeons or skirmishes, then that further cripples the system, for me.
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slambitMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 282Bounty Hunter
Feedback: general This completely defeats the purpose of using refining points if I still have to create duplicates as catalyst to upgrade an enchantment. What is the reasoning behind this?
very good point.
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werealchemistMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Feedback: general This completely defeats the purpose of using refining points if I still have to create duplicates as catalyst to upgrade an enchantment. What is the reasoning behind this?
Exactly this.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Feedback: general I just started messing around with the refinement process on the preview shard last night, and I was extremely disappointed to learn that in order to upgrade a rank 7 enchant to a rank 8 enchant I needed another rank 7 enchant! This is after I pumped a ton of enchants into it to "refine" it. I thought the point was to simplify the process and help free up bag/bank space? Now I still have to keep all the extra enchants to rank up multiples of everything.
I didn't bother reading all 21 pages of posts so if someone has covered this already that's great, but let me throw my opinion in and tell you that I think this is a terrible mechanic. This completely defeats the purpose of using refining points if I still have to create duplicates as catalyst to upgrade an enchantment. What is the reasoning behind this?
I couldn't agree more. I'd rather see them double the amount of RP needed to rank up an enchantment and remove the duplicate enchantment as a reagent. It'd be pretty disappointing to a lot of people who were excited about collecting the catalysts, the wards and all the RP points to try and fuse an enchant, only to see they're only halfway there.
Roll the extra enchantment refinement cost into the cost of upgrade and eliminate having to have another rank 7, 8, or 9 as a reagent. You already have catalysts required, so people are still going to use wards. This would simplify it quite a bit.
Example:
Currently on Test = Rank 7 -> Rank 8 requires 34560 refinement points + Epic Mark/Matching rank 7.
With matching enchant removal = Rank 7 -> Rank 8 requires 51950 refinement points + Epic Mark.
All I did in the example is roll the refinement cost of going from rank 1 -> rank 7 into the cost of going from rank 7 to rank 8.
It does reduce the mark requirements, but greatly simplifies the system as a whole.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited November 2013
Feedback: general: experiences of a completely new character under this refinement system To be clear, the one boost I have given my tester ranger is many, many skill kits, to open every node he comes across. But he's got no higher level enchantments than what he can make from what he finds, and no supplemental ADs from the outside world. In a fully populated environment, he'd have been able to start out slightly richer from Blacklake skirmish runs, at least. But as-is, it's a good test case for a player who is not maximizing their AD income.
Since, he's only done up to Blackdagger, which is the first area where enchantments start dropping from nodes outside of instances, further observation of drop rates is still needed. I did not expect to find any marks in skill nodes in Blacklake or Tower, since they don't drop enchants.
The level 15 box contained 5 minor marks, of which I lost 2 to a single failed upgrade. Basically, you get enough free to see how they work, and to build up all your runes and enchantments completely from scratch, you will need to buy some of these marks from the WB. Ok, fine, they're really inexpensive. 25AD isn't much. One foundry daily and I didn't really need to worry about the cost, even when I failed a few other upgrades using them. *But* those losses still stung a little. Rank 1s drop like candy as soon as you start getting enchant drops at all. In the fuse-four system, there's a low chance of failure, and if it bites you, you'll get another matching rank 1 soon to try again. In this system, failure upgrading 1s and 2s dictates that you buy more marks, since the ones needed are not otherwise available. But, like I said, it's a low cost, not out of reach. Some players will balk at paying even that small cost though, like they balk at buying the 15AD identification scrolls. Their point being that every AD spent on these small incidentals is one they don't have towards major expenses later. Fair enough.
If you're with me so far, I've managed to make myself a bunch of rank 3 items, which I have happily slotted into my gear and my cleric companion, and been refining and upgrading them in place. The recovery costs in silver and copper are extremely affordable when I get a gear upgrade, basically covered by vendoring the old item after I get my enchantment out of it. But I'm still picking up a ton of both rank 1 and now 2 enchants. Very quickly, I have fully refined and am ready to upgrade the rank 3s to rank 4s, for which I need a new kind of mark, costing 10x as much as the previous ones. Ok, that would eat though my available ADs too quickly for my liking, but they can drop from skill nodes? Let's see about finding some then. Meanwhile, I am sitting on a ton of rank 1s and 2s I can't add to my slotted ones until after I upgrade, but that I want to save for refining points when I do. I go so far as to make another rank 3 of some enchantment types once I have more gear with slots. Mostly, my searching for marks nets me even more runes and enchantments. I find two marks, one in a skill node and one in a multi-lootable chest (good!). I successfully make one rank 4 radiant enchantment. My other attempt at making a rank 4 fails, and I am quite bummed out. That mark was hard to find (but would never be worth using a preservation ward to protect, even if I had one).
Once you get past the rank 4 wall, you can feed a lot of rank 1s and 2s into it, so you're back to the point of freeing up inventory space. I'm nowhere near being able to try for a rank 5 radiant, but when I am, it will take 2 more of the elusive marks, *if* successful on the first try.
I will say, with an artifact added to the mix, it's possible to clear all the inventory clutter into feeding that instead, if really pressed. So far, I've just been using the white pearls and training runestones on my artifact. But I kinda want to use the matching enchants on matching enchants, as much as possible.
What I'd like to see is for the marks in skill nodes to drop with the frequency of an uncommon skill node drop such as residuum. I think that would probably put them at about the right level to not be such a hard block to advancement, since the statement was that players are basically expected to find enough of these items to meet their needs, with purchasing them simply available as a convenience option. Please remember that node farming has already been throttled with a flag to drop only junk items after looting x nodes in y time. It is probably also worth considering having them drop from monsters, again with the frequency of uncommon crafting resources. That's what feels right.
I will continue adventuring and observing, to see if the drop rates increase at all with access to nodes with a higher quality of loot. I will also note that although I looted many nodes during profession bonus time, the marks I did find were obtained outside of that window.
I like the system. I like that my inventory is - for the most part - less full of partial stacks of mismatched gems. I like not being worried about using my enchantments, especially while being able to work towards making the ones I'm actively using better. That part even feels more involved and personal, in a way. But there's definitely a choke point with starting to need the green marks while you're in your level 20s, can't find any, and don't have the ADs to buy them.
Feedback: general: how I'll actually use the system As a player who's been around since open beta, an obsessive node looter, an incorrigible hoarder, and utter cheapskate, I already have many rank 5s, some 6s, and even a few 7s and 8s, mostly sitting in inventory waiting for something worth putting them in. I am now basically waiting for the new system to be implemented in order to slot all my best enchantments into whatever characters are wearing, even if it's not the best gear, and will be using all rank 1-4s for refining points only. The collective's inventory clutter will be incredibly reduced. I don't think I'll ever actually need minor or lesser marks for anything, as all my characters will be feeding their enchant drops into the factory, rather than working up from scratch. I will need the blue marks, which I won't hesitate to protect with preservation wards, which means a failed upgrade will be a minor inconvenience rather than a brick wall. Upgrades from 5+ will require a lot of refining points, which will give me more time to amass the other needed resources.
Overall, it's a great system for an established player. But concerns I and others have previously expressed in this thread about how it will be for someone starting out have played out in testing exactly how I was worried they would.
adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
edited November 2013
I have been playing with this and I really like the basic idea...and I love the gold cost for removing enchants - finally something to do with my spare gold - I wouldn't mind paying more for removing higher-end enchants, though (and less for the lower-end ones).
However, I have been trying to estimate what effect the new system will have on AH enchant prices, and I am getting some odd results.....has anyone else actually done those calculations - calculating, say what it would cost to go from a typical rank-5 enchant to a rank 9, for example? I think I must be doing something wrong......
Hoping for improvements...
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uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
Roll the extra enchantment refinement cost into the cost of upgrade and eliminate having to have another rank 7, 8, or 9 as a reagent. You already have catalysts required, so people are still going to use wards. This would simplify it quite a bit.
Example:
Currently on Test = Rank 7 -> Rank 8 requires 34560 refinement points + Epic Mark/Matching rank 7.
With matching enchant removal = Rank 7 -> Rank 8 requires 51950 refinement points + Epic Mark.
All I did in the example is roll the refinement cost of going from rank 1 -> rank 7 into the cost of going from rank 7 to rank 8.
It does reduce the mark requirements, but greatly simplifies the system as a whole.
Great idea! I totally second that! It would make the system a lot easier!
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saerraelMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
Attempt upgrade.
In my opinion, this takes way too long. Where I can understand it from a tension building pov, I can't understand it when attempting to upgrade more than one item in a row. (Or when I am using green wards and fail, repeatedly >.> )
dardoveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
Feedback: Refining Stones from leadership chests I tested the large chest of goods and the barrel. The chest only drops white pearls (1 at a time) and the the barrel only dropped minor mark of potency (2 at a time). At the very least the large chest of goods (which is blue quality) should be dropping green refining stones and marks. The barrel should also include the white pearl as a drop. They also both need to have their description updated to include the fact that they drop refining stones now.
Also what about the coffer of wondrous augmentation? Any chance it can drop the higher quality marks?
Comments
The difference is now you need:
1) 2x epic marks
2) actually level up the enchant
I used I think 130ish shards to get it ready for the next level. this cost me maybe 200k. That's the key here, only 200k. Instead of buying another 2x rank 9 for 4.5million I save all that money and spend a little on shards
The hidden factor here is the marks. Since it was the preview shard I bought them for a price in the ah that will be far different from when the changes go live. I highly doubt they will cost over 2million, so in the end the new changes result in MUCH cheaper and more affordable enchants
The one thing to be determined is the drop rate of the marks. are they items that will be easily farmable from dungeon bosses and have enough availability in the ah that they arnt too expensive? or will they be like the epic drops in MC and therefore cost big AD because of rarity
That explain how you get the high end marks. And they only cost you 5k ad(thayan key to run any minidungeon you will)! You only need to run the dungeon again after you get the daily for it from knox at the stated day to get the listed reward from the treasure.
It's not like standing around and fusing enchantments wasn't a big time sink, plus every individual fusion was a potential point of failure.
As for the refining points, shards are a nice meaty and inexpensive way to feed your stuff. All the Sharandar shards I was never going to use for anything are good for something now. I wouldn't buy enchantments for feeding to others, but it's something to do with everything I pick up.
Again, you sat down and did this all at once, which means you aren't assessing how it will be like in actual realistic gameplay, unless you really are all about instant gratification - which generally means you pay the premium for it.
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i got 5 marks in one of my adventure boxes from leveling up. i've got a level 16 hunter ranger on the preview shard. you can also buy marks from the wondrous bazaar.
. . . . . So all in all, this system is much better for the casual player and a great deal better for the hardcore players. The only reservation was the mandatory AD Upgrade cost, which has been removed now. After much testing, I like the current system far better (except for the Wpn/Armor enchants, which are bugged still and have an AD cost, which will be fixed).
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per the notes from last night, the armor/weapon enchant AD costs have been removed.
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I have 6 P. Wards in inventory at the start. I had success on the first try, and then have 5 P. Wards after. So which bug to report - losing a P. Ward on a successful attempt, or bad tooltip saying that P. Wards aren't lost on a successful attempt?
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I think the extra enchant required as a reagent should be removed on rank 7 and above enchants.
I also feel that you should be able to use either a coal ward OR the reagents to do the final upgrade and that it should be 100% success unless you choose to not use either.
The fact that you can now quest for the reagents is great, i just think you are already pooring enough enchants into refining high rank enchants that an extra one as a reagent is excessive.
I haven't read the whole thread, but yes something like this. We feed our enchantments and then once they are full we have a chance to advance them to the next level, if the process fails, our enchantments lose a bit of what they have been fed and need to be fed some more. eezy peezy, what is all this catalyst and mark stuff, too complicated??
In particular the marks/reagents idea is pretty much universally despised. Just too unnecessarily complicated.
However, you guys have put a lot of work into it and maybe you think once it goes live people will warm up to it. That's you're right and good luck to you. I can see by how integrated into the Dread Spire region the whole Mark thing is that it would be a huge pain for you to get rid of them now, probably not possible before mod 2 goes live.
There is a compromise, though, and that's to keep the Marks just for upgrading artifacts and to switch enchants/runestones to a reagent-free model (where failure leads to loss of RP). You'll probably want to stick to your guns but on the off chance I thought I'd mention it.
If any of these are repeats, I apologize. I haven't been following this as closely as before.
Feedback: Bug
So I got around to poking this a bit more, and noticed that you cannot slot in enchantments from your overflow bag. Easy solution is just to move the enchantment into your regular bags once you have space, but I'm fairly sure it should work from any bag, right?
When first slotting enchantments of matching enchants, the x2 bonus text does not display. The extra RP is given (I'm pretty sure it is, at least). Then after the first refinement is done, the text indicating double RP shows should you have any matching enchants to slot in.
When starting with a fresh enchant, the display shows your first round of enchanting as "x RP over" for that enchant. Refining pushes past this and starts the RP bar properly.
Feedback: general
Again, since I'm poking it with a more scrutinizing gaze, I noticed some of my enchantments were criting successful (thus giving more points). I Can't recall reading that in here, or seeing it, but that is a very nice added touch.
Your Feedback about the 'Bug' is false. The overflow bag is not a useable bag. So any things from it can't be used and that is good as it is. Avoid exploiting extraordinary slotfills.
Or simply add the value to the existing rp bar, would free up that bag slot, and also reduce the marks needed to 1 per upgrade, i'd still lower the diamond price of those to 10-12k for the blue one and 35-50k for the purple one.
I just started messing around with the refinement process on the preview shard last night, and I was extremely disappointed to learn that in order to upgrade a rank 7 enchant to a rank 8 enchant I needed another rank 7 enchant! This is after I pumped a ton of enchants into it to "refine" it. I thought the point was to simplify the process and help free up bag/bank space? Now I still have to keep all the extra enchants to rank up multiples of everything.
I didn't bother reading all 21 pages of posts so if someone has covered this already that's great, but let me throw my opinion in and tell you that I think this is a terrible mechanic. This completely defeats the purpose of using refining points if I still have to create duplicates as catalyst to upgrade an enchantment. What is the reasoning behind this?
Exactly how, and where, do you quest for reagents? I haven't gotten a single one. And, if it requires doing dungeons or skirmishes, then that further cripples the system, for me.
(Where's a Miniature Giant Space Hamster when you need one?)
very good point.
Exactly this.
I couldn't agree more. I'd rather see them double the amount of RP needed to rank up an enchantment and remove the duplicate enchantment as a reagent. It'd be pretty disappointing to a lot of people who were excited about collecting the catalysts, the wards and all the RP points to try and fuse an enchant, only to see they're only halfway there.
Example:
Currently on Test = Rank 7 -> Rank 8 requires 34560 refinement points + Epic Mark/Matching rank 7.
With matching enchant removal = Rank 7 -> Rank 8 requires 51950 refinement points + Epic Mark.
All I did in the example is roll the refinement cost of going from rank 1 -> rank 7 into the cost of going from rank 7 to rank 8.
It does reduce the mark requirements, but greatly simplifies the system as a whole.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
To be clear, the one boost I have given my tester ranger is many, many skill kits, to open every node he comes across. But he's got no higher level enchantments than what he can make from what he finds, and no supplemental ADs from the outside world. In a fully populated environment, he'd have been able to start out slightly richer from Blacklake skirmish runs, at least. But as-is, it's a good test case for a player who is not maximizing their AD income.
Since, he's only done up to Blackdagger, which is the first area where enchantments start dropping from nodes outside of instances, further observation of drop rates is still needed. I did not expect to find any marks in skill nodes in Blacklake or Tower, since they don't drop enchants.
The level 15 box contained 5 minor marks, of which I lost 2 to a single failed upgrade. Basically, you get enough free to see how they work, and to build up all your runes and enchantments completely from scratch, you will need to buy some of these marks from the WB. Ok, fine, they're really inexpensive. 25AD isn't much. One foundry daily and I didn't really need to worry about the cost, even when I failed a few other upgrades using them. *But* those losses still stung a little. Rank 1s drop like candy as soon as you start getting enchant drops at all. In the fuse-four system, there's a low chance of failure, and if it bites you, you'll get another matching rank 1 soon to try again. In this system, failure upgrading 1s and 2s dictates that you buy more marks, since the ones needed are not otherwise available. But, like I said, it's a low cost, not out of reach. Some players will balk at paying even that small cost though, like they balk at buying the 15AD identification scrolls. Their point being that every AD spent on these small incidentals is one they don't have towards major expenses later. Fair enough.
If you're with me so far, I've managed to make myself a bunch of rank 3 items, which I have happily slotted into my gear and my cleric companion, and been refining and upgrading them in place. The recovery costs in silver and copper are extremely affordable when I get a gear upgrade, basically covered by vendoring the old item after I get my enchantment out of it. But I'm still picking up a ton of both rank 1 and now 2 enchants. Very quickly, I have fully refined and am ready to upgrade the rank 3s to rank 4s, for which I need a new kind of mark, costing 10x as much as the previous ones. Ok, that would eat though my available ADs too quickly for my liking, but they can drop from skill nodes? Let's see about finding some then. Meanwhile, I am sitting on a ton of rank 1s and 2s I can't add to my slotted ones until after I upgrade, but that I want to save for refining points when I do. I go so far as to make another rank 3 of some enchantment types once I have more gear with slots. Mostly, my searching for marks nets me even more runes and enchantments. I find two marks, one in a skill node and one in a multi-lootable chest (good!). I successfully make one rank 4 radiant enchantment. My other attempt at making a rank 4 fails, and I am quite bummed out. That mark was hard to find (but would never be worth using a preservation ward to protect, even if I had one).
Once you get past the rank 4 wall, you can feed a lot of rank 1s and 2s into it, so you're back to the point of freeing up inventory space. I'm nowhere near being able to try for a rank 5 radiant, but when I am, it will take 2 more of the elusive marks, *if* successful on the first try.
I will say, with an artifact added to the mix, it's possible to clear all the inventory clutter into feeding that instead, if really pressed. So far, I've just been using the white pearls and training runestones on my artifact. But I kinda want to use the matching enchants on matching enchants, as much as possible.
What I'd like to see is for the marks in skill nodes to drop with the frequency of an uncommon skill node drop such as residuum. I think that would probably put them at about the right level to not be such a hard block to advancement, since the statement was that players are basically expected to find enough of these items to meet their needs, with purchasing them simply available as a convenience option. Please remember that node farming has already been throttled with a flag to drop only junk items after looting x nodes in y time. It is probably also worth considering having them drop from monsters, again with the frequency of uncommon crafting resources. That's what feels right.
I will continue adventuring and observing, to see if the drop rates increase at all with access to nodes with a higher quality of loot. I will also note that although I looted many nodes during profession bonus time, the marks I did find were obtained outside of that window.
I like the system. I like that my inventory is - for the most part - less full of partial stacks of mismatched gems. I like not being worried about using my enchantments, especially while being able to work towards making the ones I'm actively using better. That part even feels more involved and personal, in a way. But there's definitely a choke point with starting to need the green marks while you're in your level 20s, can't find any, and don't have the ADs to buy them.
Feedback: general: how I'll actually use the system
As a player who's been around since open beta, an obsessive node looter, an incorrigible hoarder, and utter cheapskate, I already have many rank 5s, some 6s, and even a few 7s and 8s, mostly sitting in inventory waiting for something worth putting them in. I am now basically waiting for the new system to be implemented in order to slot all my best enchantments into whatever characters are wearing, even if it's not the best gear, and will be using all rank 1-4s for refining points only. The collective's inventory clutter will be incredibly reduced. I don't think I'll ever actually need minor or lesser marks for anything, as all my characters will be feeding their enchant drops into the factory, rather than working up from scratch. I will need the blue marks, which I won't hesitate to protect with preservation wards, which means a failed upgrade will be a minor inconvenience rather than a brick wall. Upgrades from 5+ will require a lot of refining points, which will give me more time to amass the other needed resources.
Overall, it's a great system for an established player. But concerns I and others have previously expressed in this thread about how it will be for someone starting out have played out in testing exactly how I was worried they would.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
However, I have been trying to estimate what effect the new system will have on AH enchant prices, and I am getting some odd results.....has anyone else actually done those calculations - calculating, say what it would cost to go from a typical rank-5 enchant to a rank 9, for example? I think I must be doing something wrong......
In my opinion, this takes way too long. Where I can understand it from a tension building pov, I can't understand it when attempting to upgrade more than one item in a row. (Or when I am using green wards and fail, repeatedly >.> )
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I tested the large chest of goods and the barrel. The chest only drops white pearls (1 at a time) and the the barrel only dropped minor mark of potency (2 at a time). At the very least the large chest of goods (which is blue quality) should be dropping green refining stones and marks. The barrel should also include the white pearl as a drop. They also both need to have their description updated to include the fact that they drop refining stones now.
Also what about the coffer of wondrous augmentation? Any chance it can drop the higher quality marks?