Cryptic OFFICIAL Feedback Thread: Refinement System - Pt. 2

terramak

Creating this thread anew so we can get a fresh round of feedback post-AD Cost Removal!

graalx3 wrote: »

We have spent a lot of effort into making the experience of slotting, improving and unslotting Enchantments and Runestones much more enjoyable, totally reworking the entire system.

Every enchantment requires an amount of Refinement Points (RP) to be able to Upgrade it to the next rank. You gain RP by feeding the enchantment other enchantments, runestones and the new refining stones in the Item Refinement window. When you have accumulated enough RP to upgrade the enchantment you must go through the upgrade step. This step consumes certain catalyst items and has a chance of failure. Failing will consume the catalyst items as normal but will not affect the enchantment. If you have more catalyst items you can try again immediately. Succeed and you will be charged Astral Diamonds to complete the upgrade. Note that this is the only time in which you are charged Astral Diamonds for enchantments and runestones as the cost to unslot has been changed to gold.

That's basically it. There are a few refinements to the base system like being able to upgrade an enchantment while it's slotted and you get bonus RP for consuming the same type of item. Wards are still available. Refining stones are a new treasure item type. They hold a lot of RP for your refining pleasure.

Just give the system a try and post any feedback and questions in this thread. I'll be reading all of your posts.

Graalx3 and I (and many others!) are looking forward to seeing more great feedback. Keep it coming! We're listening.

The original thread can be found here:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?516571


Posting guidelines by Drannic:

drannic wrote: »

Please use “Bold” face text for the Type & Categories then type your feedback in the body of your post. If you are listing a bug please have this text in RED, if you are posting an opinion or feedback please use BLUE.
(Concise Feedback & Screen Shots are much appreciated)

Type: Bug, Feedback
(Pick one or the other)

Category: Refinement Window, Enchantments, Slotting, General
(Please write a category that best describes your feedback)

Example Posts:
Bug: Refinement Window: Enchantment
I am unable to refine my companion's Runestones without unslotting the runestone first.

Feedback: General: Slotting Enchantments
It would be nice to drag and drop enchantments into open enchant slots, but If already filled it would bring up the Item Refinement window instead!

The new Artifact items are also upgraded in rank and quality with this Item Refinement system, if you have feedback or find any bugs not related to the refinement changes, please make the posts in the thread below.

Artifact System: (Thread)


We look forward to hearing back from you!
- Drannic

imsmithy

As long as Catalyst drop's aren't really rare then personally I think it's a fairly solid system , being able to feed lower ranking enchantments into the ones I want to level up is going to be good since at the moment 2 of my bags are literally full of enchantments and runestone's of various levels between 4 and 7 .

dnosrc

Bug:
Upgrading Shards to Lessers still has Upgrade Cost of 25k

kolatmaster

New System is looking pretty darn snazzy now... Well done! :cool:

tang56

Feedback-Marks of X,Y,Z,α...

The number of different marks is quite clunky. If you reduced the number of mark type to two, one for enchanting and one for artifacts I think it would greatly streamline the system. The various quality levels are fine.

zebular

. . . . . Making up to Rank 5's, I really like the system. I don't mind the 1,500 AD cost (500 per lesser mark), I feel that is appropriate. However, going from Rank 5's to 6's and beyond is still ridiculous. Mind you, I am UNABLE to find any Catalysts through out the world. Now if Catalysts drop through out the world, the Blues and Purples, then I don't see an issue. But if we are still being forced to buy these Marks, then I just simply won't be wearing anything more than Rank 5's. As it stands, the blue and purple catalysts are ridiculous in price. They should be 1,000 AD and 5,000 AD respectively. Not 25,000 AD and 100,000 AD.... That's still too expensive for my tastes.

. . . . . Removing Enchantments, this system and cost I feel is perfect. Please don't change this. The only change I can see happening is making it cheaper based upon rank of enchantment and more expensive the higher rank. So say the highest rank may cost 10 gold, while removing a rank 1 would cost 1 silver. However, leaving it at a flat rate of 2.5 gold is extremely acceptable to me.

khimera906

zebular wrote: »

. . . . . Making up to Rank 5's, I really like the system. I don't mind the 1,500 AD cost (500 per lesser mark), I feel that is appropriate. However, going from Rank 5's to 6's and beyond is still ridiculous. Mind you, I am UNABLE to find any Catalysts through out the world. Now if Catalysts drop through out the world, the Blues and Purples, then I don't see an issue. But if we are still being forced to buy these Marks, then I just simply won't be wearing anything more than Rank 5's. As it stands, the blue and purple catalysts are ridiculous in price. They should be 1,000 AD and 5,000 AD respectively. Not 25,000 AD and 100,000 AD.... That's still too expensive for my tastes.

. . . . . Removing Enchantments, this system and cost I feel is perfect. Please don't change this. The only change I can see happening is making it cheaper based upon rank of enchantment and more expensive the higher rank. So say the highest rank may cost 10 gold, while removing a rank 1 would cost 1 silver. However, leaving it at a flat rate of 2.5 gold is extremely acceptable to me.

Actually, in the description of each Catalyst it's mentioned where it can be found.

orangefiree

zebular wrote: »

. . . . . Making up to Rank 5's, I really like the system. I don't mind the 1,500 AD cost (500 per lesser mark), I feel that is appropriate. However, going from Rank 5's to 6's and beyond is still ridiculous. Mind you, I am UNABLE to find any Catalysts through out the world. Now if Catalysts drop through out the world, the Blues and Purples, then I don't see an issue. But if we are still being forced to buy these Marks, then I just simply won't be wearing anything more than Rank 5's. As it stands, the blue and purple catalysts are ridiculous in price. They should be 1,000 AD and 5,000 AD respectively. Not 25,000 AD and 100,000 AD.... That's still too expensive for my tastes.

. . . . . Removing Enchantments, this system and cost I feel is perfect. Please don't change this. The only change I can see happening is making it cheaper based upon rank of enchantment and more expensive the higher rank. So say the highest rank may cost 10 gold, while removing a rank 1 would cost 1 silver. However, leaving it at a flat rate of 2.5 gold is extremely acceptable to me.

They can all be found by game play. Minors come from adventurer reward chests. (And if you run out of those, they cost 25 AD so that isn't a big deal.) The green ones come from chests and skill nodes very commonly. The blues come from dungeons I think and some mission in the dread ring if I remember correctly. Purples are from epic dungeons and dread ring solo dungeons on specific days. As Khimera said, they all list where they drop.

badgerpants999

Adding this again

Just one thing, Could you stop calling the Catalysts Catalysts? There not Catalysts! They're reagents! Catalysts aren't consumed on use, Reagents are. So please, for the sake of my inner Chemist, change the name.

My inner Pedant.

He won't let me leave it alone!

pers3phone

badgerpants999 wrote: »

Adding this again

Just one thing, Could you stop calling the Catalysts Catalysts? There not Catalysts! They're reagents! Catalysts aren't consumed on use, Reagents are. So please, for the sake of my inner Chemist, change the name.

My inner Pedant.

He won't let me leave it alone!

This is correct.

discordination

This system will add some much needed depth to the refinement system; personally I always thought the slotting/unslotting AD cost hampered the market and created an unnecessary permanence to Weapon/Armor Enchanting. Upgrading Enchantments themselves with the inclusion of the mark requirement seems logical enough with those heavy restrictions on slotting being lifted.

Kudos on the layout and design, the menu itself might be a bit large imo, but it works and looks great. In terms of polish, I feel like I miss the upgrading loading bar and it feels like the ward slot could be better situated.

Please tell me item deconstruction is next on the crafting upgrades list ;P

zebular

. . . . . . I'm really liking that the Marks can be found through out the dungeons and bosses. This gives me an incentive to do Epic Delves out-side of delve hour. However, it seems like the drop rate for Catalysts in skill nodes through out the world is really low. I've only gotten one refining stone in about an hour or killing mobs and looting every skill node. Looted about 20 nodes and all that was in them were normal stuff except for one had a green quality refining stone.

. . . . . . Slightly related, I also like the look of the Delve keys. This also adds to the incentive to do Delves outside of delve hour for not only gearing needs but also Mark needs. I feel the prices for these keys are perfect in price. Any more expensive and they risk being too expensive for the possible rewards. Any less and they would not be an AD sink at all. The most I would say these should cost is 5000 for the epic and 2500 for the heroic. However, as I said, I think the current prices are just fine.

. . . . . . My new-found experience is from running a full group of highly skilled and geared level 60 guildies, did Epic Pirate King and we were all very happy. Only one Mark dropped but the Boss drop made up for that, as two nice purples dropped instead and both were useable by players in the party (for their respective classes). Then afterwards I ran Sharandar for a while solo.

. . . . . . All in all, this AD removal cost is awesome. The only "bugs" I have seen so far is that the Shards are still costing AD, their Upgrade Cost was not removed as well as adventure zone drop rates for low-end Catalysts seem far too low. I understand high-end Catalysts not dropping out in the adventure zones and only in dungeons, this makes sense. But low-end ones should be dropping better out in the adventure zones.

. . . . . . Also, this just in. The proc rate for the Fireburst enchants is not working as intended. Standing in and taking damage from a group of mobs, not attacking back for 4-5 minutes, the fireburst proc only happened once (15% chance) yet the wolf's interrupt proc (5% chance) happened A LOT.

ortzhy

zebular wrote: »

[/COLOR]. . . . . . My new-found experience is from running a full group of highly skilled and geared level 60 guildies, did Epic Pirate King and we were all very happy. Only one Mark dropped but the Boss drop made up for that, as two nice purples dropped instead and both were useable by players in the party (for their respective classes). Then afterwards I ran Sharandar for a while solo.

one mark for each or only one mark for all? Also is it dropping everytime or does it have a chance? TY!

zebular

ortzhy wrote: »

one mark for each or only one mark for all? Also is it dropping everytime or does it have a chance? TY!

. . . . . It was only one Mark, a green quality and it dropped from the first boss in Epic Pirate King. The group was able to roll on it. It's not a guaranteed drop, according to the tooltips for other Marks, they have a chance to drop from any boss in the dungeon. I'll log in and write up what the tool-tips say here in a bit.

zebular

. . . . . I still feel that the cost of the blue and purple marks are way too high. Also, the Lesser Mark of Potency dropped from the first Boss in Epic Pirate King, despite it's tool-tip not saying that it does. Additionally, the Minor Marks of Potency should also be drops from skill nodes around any adventure zone. They are only 25 AD, which looks dirt cheap but considering how many you will go through, that is a lot for them to not drop anywhere else in the game save for the level 15 chest and the Bazaar.

zebular wrote: »

. . . . . It was only one Mark, a green quality and it dropped from the first boss in Epic Pirate King. The group was able to roll on it. It's not a guaranteed drop, according to the tooltip for it, it has a chance to drop from any boss in the dungeon. I'll log in and write up what the tool-tips say here in a bit.

Okay, here they are as listed in the Wondrous Bazaar right now at the time of this post. The Peridot, last item, is the one I got from a skill node in Sharandar. It's the only one I've ever seen drop from a skill node on any of my character testing this. The Lesser Mark of Potency is what dropped from the first boss in Epic Pirate King.

If the text is illegible, it's due to the auto re-sizing of images. Click the image for full size.

fdsakhfduewhfiuf

badgerpants999 wrote: »

Adding this again

Just one thing, Could you stop calling the Catalysts Catalysts? There not Catalysts! They're reagents! Catalysts aren't consumed on use, Reagents are. So please, for the sake of my inner Chemist, change the name.

My inner Pedant.

He won't let me leave it alone!

Well, I thought so too. Generally catalysts are not altered or destroyed by the "process" they are "improving". But they can still be destroyed by side effects of that process. Just look up "catalyst" in Wikipedia.

But I agree calling them reagents would avoid misunderstandings.

yokihiro

I still don't like this feature. It is too complex, maybe I have not understood it completely yet but when I yesterday tried to "level" my lesser Soulforge enchant at one point to upgrade it it asked for another Lesser Soulforge enchant that I had to apply along with the catalysts.

Why is this system not clean and straight. Add an enchant at any level, use other magic items to level it until a certain point where you need the catalysts to get it to the next rank. That's it.

And another thing that always bugged me are the namings:


Minor
Lesser
-
Greater
(Perfect)

The "standard" or "normal" rank has no special name which makes it hard to understand for new people. That can be seen for potions, marks, enchants... Why don't you give them all a name? Minor, lesser, normal, greater, perfect?

hinageshi79

I think the new refinement system for enchantment, enchants and runestone are the worse thing ever seen in this game. I play since open beta and I have "only" rank 7. With this new system I will be much much more expensive to increase my enchatment rank and because i dont use bots and cheats it means i will never improve my enchantments. Also i dont like that we could not overwrite enchays but we will be forced to remove them at the cost of 1872900 AD for all rank 7!!!!! I know cryptic want adopt any mechanics that will make us more poor in game (to force many to use real money) but this new refinement system is exagerate.

My advice is to don't change anything in enchants/runestone system and introduce the new refinement system only for artifacts ( i like the idea that thy absorb enchants/runestone energy)

uurbs

hinageshi79 wrote: »

[...] With this new system I will be much much more expensive to increase my enchatment rank [...]. Also i dont like that we could not overwrite enchays but we will be forced to remove them at the cost of 1872900 AD for all rank 7

That doesn't like you're talking about the new refinement system, because a) it will be cheaper and b) unslotting only costs 2.50 gold. I've no clue where your information is coming from, but definitely not from first-hand experience on the preview shard.

jarlsburg

Are the Marks of Potency found in the world/dungeons BOP?

ortzhy

I see Refinement points being on both shards and enchants, can i feed the system enchants (r3 r4..) so i can build a Lesser/Normal? Or is a separate fusion system?

uurbs

ortzhy wrote: »

I see Refinement points being on both shards and enchants, can i feed the system enchants (r3 r4..) so i can build a Lesser/Normal? Or is a separate fusion system?

You can feed all enchantments, runestones and shards to any other shard, weapon-, armor-, (normal-)enchantment and runestones.

On a sidenote (I didn't checked with the patch from yesterday): you should not use anything above r4/shard as a source for refinement points, as the higher ranks give less RP based on the old 4->1 rule.

baylen76

Thanks for the improvements, it is good to see steps being taken into the right direction.

My remaining main gripe:

Could you please make sure marks from epic dungeon skill nodes always pop up for rolling? Else Guardian Fighters (who lack dash) will never ever get a chance to loot a node again. And we already share the node type with GWFs.

Really, it would help avoid a lot of unnecessary drama.

ortzhy

uurbs wrote: »

You can feed all enchantments, runestones and shards to any other shard, weapon-, armor-, (normal-)enchantment and runestones.

On a sidenote (I didn't checked with the patch from yesterday): you should not use anything above r4/shard as a source for refinement points, as the higher ranks give less RP based on the old 4->1 rule.

TY! If someone can give us the value of RP for each (r1-r4 and shards )would be rly awesome!!

yokihiro

baylen76 wrote: »

Thanks for the improvements, it is good to see steps being taken into the right direction.

My remaining main gripe:

Could you please make sure marks from epic dungeon skill nodes always pop up for rolling? Else Guardian Fighters (who lack dash) will never ever get a chance to loot a node again. And we already share the node type with GWFs.

Really, it would help avoid a lot of unnecessary drama.

uhm buying kits maybe? no one said you only can loot your own skillnodes.

colonelwing

Feedback:

Can we make it, that monsters drop the needed mats? Skill nodes are taken 99% of the time, already. (by bots) And chests are not THAT common. Give it proper drop rates, like 1/5/10% etc. according to rarity. But please, do not gate enchantment fusion behind skill node/dungeon farming...

It kills the solo gameplay, entirely.

baylen76

yokihiro wrote: »

uhm buying kits maybe? no one said you only can loot your own skillnodes.

You are missing the point. Thousand kits will not help when people can shift-zing past the slow GF. I for one often do boredom pug runs, so unlike with friends, fair sharing is not an option.

The issue is not limited to GFs anyway, you need a system which does not give incentive to antisocial behaviour. Like that one character always darting ahead to loot the node instead of being part of a combat team focused on overcoming the next group.

Drama prevention is always good.

uurbs

Here you go:

Weapon and Armor Enchantments:


Refinement points
Shard
Lesser
Normal
Greater
Perfect


All (w/o Plague Fire)
2,160
4,320
12,960
38,880
58,320


Plague Fire
--
12,960
38,880
58,320
--


x4 value (of the lower item)
--
8,640
17,280
51,840
155,520



Normal Enchantment & Runestones:


Rank
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10


All
5
15
45
135
540
2,160
4,320
12,960
38,880
58,320


x4 value (of the lower item)
--
20
60
180
540
2,160
8,640
17,280
51,840
155,520



As you see, for the transition from the old to the new system, it doesn't make sense to upgrade the Rank 1 to Rank 3 at all, neither does it for anything starting at Rank 6. But you could upgrade Rank 4 to Rank 6 if you don't mind loosing some enchantments along the way.

As I was not able to log into the Preview server since yesterday, I'm not sure about the cost/value of upgrading Rank 1 to 3 before using them for RP gain. Previously you needed 1x Rank-1, 1x Minor Mark of Potency and 25 AD to upgrade from Rank 1 to 2. Depending on the availability of the "Minor Mark of Potency", it may make sense to upgrade the Rank 1 and 2 to Rank 3 before using them in the new system--as you would increase the RP value of the Rank 1/2 to 15/45.

Hope that helped.

Sidenote: As you may note, the value of the Rank 10, 9, 8, 7 and 6 are similiar to Perfect, Greater, Normal, Lesser and Shard. Therefore one may conclude, that a Perfect enchantment is nothing else as a Rank 10. Additionally, as the Greater Plague Fire Enchantment is the highest rank of the Plague Fire enchantment, and the new Bronzewood comes only in the flavours of Normal, Greater & Perfect. One could conclude, that the Greater Plague Fire is actually a misspelled Perfect Plague Fire

chocobofarmer

What other changes besides removing AD cost? Have refiningpoint costs increased? Please use zen store coal ward prices since we can't predict the future thx.

uurbs

I took the liberty to edit your post to fulfill the required format for feedback.

baylen76 wrote: »

[...]
My remaining main gripe:

Could you please make sure marks from epic dungeon skill nodes always pop up for rolling? Else Guardian Fighters (who lack dash) will never ever get a chance to loot a node again. And we already share the node type with GWFs.

Really, it would help avoid a lot of unnecessary drama.

I totally second this notion! I normally run in fixed groups/guild groups, but nevertheless the blue and epic Mark of Potency should show up to roll for!

baylen76 wrote: »

[...] Like that one character always darting ahead to loot the node instead of being part of a combat team focused on overcoming the next group.

Oh! There is another combat in the dungeons beside, who is the fastest on the nodes and get's the most loot out of it?! *scnr* :cool: Honestly, nowadays in our group, we rarely loot any of the skill nodes, but I guess that will change with the upcoming module.

grungebrmpk

Guys, I'm very very happy to see the AD costs removed!
I take my hat off for you devs, really, and I'm proud of been a NW player! Take my little money!

Now as far as I see, the system is very very fair and balanced! There are still some AD sinks, but optional, and the prices seems reasonable! Now we can evolute our enchants and remove them without been charged of AD, and if people want to speed up the process, it's still possible (zen sink too)!

Thanks again devs, and thanks all people in PWE that listen to us, understand that we want to help the game!

***: A very happy drow