Seeing how they ruin Hunter Ranger before they release it due to PVP nerf population i think i would sell back all my Hunter Ready equipment to AH, good luck with the class, with this groundbreaking nerf it would be another body bag in PVP.
See it that way, at least they have learnt from the mistakes they have made in the past and aren't going to release an OP class. Besides, the HR still is deadly in every aspect. It depends on how one plays it, i guess.
I do agree its going to be rough in pvp with these changes for Hunter Ranger. Simply because they have minimal control powers and are very susceptible to being controlled.
Its like a wizard with no control effects on thier skills. The damage is what they got going for them.
Im highly against the current state of Split Shot and Thorn Ward and Split the Sky.
even Aimed Shot even though its not that big of a difference in damage, given its so difficult to use this skill consistantly at its current state since the most subtle breeze can interrupt its very long cast time.
Thier reductions is just so severe.
a Pure ranger is hurt badly in this.
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werealchemistMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
They do have mobility. Though too much mobility and it will be a problem in pvp.
They have a couple of mobility encounters and the highest number of dodge abilities. I think thier mobility is good enough the way it is, with the possibility to get more if you desire if you take focus in specific ability rolls.
Don't get me wrong i'm not saying they don't have enough mobility, but they have no mobile ranged attacks which is what makes a ranger FEEL like a ranger. (IMO)
Don't get me wrong i'm not saying they don't have enough mobility, but they have no mobile ranged attacks which is what makes a ranger FEEL like a ranger. (IMO)
None of the classes can move and attack o0 why should the ranger be an exception?
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werealchemistMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Riiiight... i know many people would like a hunter similiar to the one in WoW. Backpaddling and pew - pew - pew, throw in the occassional space bar spamming along with roots/snares etc.... right? But this isn't WoW. And a class should not have a huge advantage above others, just because it is not "one of the other classes".
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werealchemistMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Riiiight... i know many people would like a hunter similiar to the one in WoW. Backpaddling and pew - pew - pew, throw in the occassional space bar spamming along with roots/snares etc.... right? But this isn't WoW. And a class should not have a huge advantage above others, just because it is not "one of the other classes".
Riiiight... I'm not asking for a pet to do all my damage for me if you go ahead and read back to some of the previous posts
Keep in mind I'm not asking for full movement speed, just enough to move out of the small AoEs from PvE mobs. not being able to out run another player while spamming it off.
I proposed that Aimed Shot should at least be able to move in a similar fashion as Reaping Strike.
But thats the only At Will i say that should have that function for HR.
Other than that, Ranger should not have the ability to move and attack at the same time. Control Wizards originally had that function. And it just is not acceptable in a game like this.
I would argue that if it can't be perfect, it's better to release an underpowered one that gets buffed, than a overpowered one that gets nerfed. Because if too many players get complacent with HR being the way it was, they'll feel even more betrayed and reflect that negative opinion on the class as a whole for a long time after the nerf pass.
Don't believe it? Look at the GWF's. A solid class in it's current state on live, yet completely ignored by a large portion of the playerbase due to this very same issue. The class was too strong in testing, and too many came to rely on that power.
Agreed, better under than over, but there is a long way between where we are and perfect. It would be silly to preview test the class, get feedback, and not act on it. Then again, anything is possible. It sure would be a huge lost opportunity to attract players back into the game.
Regarding GWF, it could be argued the effects were due to the class being weak for a long time, and not necessarily the beta nerf itself. It doesn't matter, we are fixed now. :-)
I think you can probably afford to spec for more Str / Wis than Int / Recov. Simply because Stormstep action is amazing with Disruptive shot. And If you crit? Thats 4 seconds your encounter cooldowns are reduced by. Archery will work best with High Crit Builds, hence speccing for more points into wisdom. And Str gives us base Armour Penetration as well as Stamina Regen.
I did some testing with Tiah (A control wizard from Exodus) in regards to Stamina Regen. At level 36 I had specced for an additional 20% stamina Regen. As well as the 4% I gained from my points into Str. Giving 24% stamina regen.
We timed how long it took to fill the Stamina Bars. For Tiah, it was 15 Seconds empty to full. (Thats on a CW) On the Ranger, it took 20-21 seconds. However, this is not as big an issue as it may seem? Why? Because with 24% stamina regen, It already gave me an extra dodge. Pushing the amount of dodges I could expend at one time to a maximum of 6!!
Also, because our dodges consume less stamina, we can dodge more often at the lower end of the stamina bar as well. This will be even more apparent once you have 5 spec points into the feat that increases stamina regeneration by 25% whilst in ranged stance, Combined with the 10% we can get from Heroic Feats and then the 10% stamina regen from Sharandar that gives a Base Stamina Regeneration of 45%. Now, if you take my advice and spec into Str, you can push that even higher. My Ability score roll with have 18 str, so thats another 8% Stamina Regen. Thats a Whopping 53% faster stamina regeneration.
And people think I dodge too much on my wizard as it is now.
Good suggestions, Des! I find that enticing, forgoing the +10% RSI I can get from INT and just spec-ing for increased WIS/STR for better bursts in damage. The ARP from STR should also allow for a more relaxed gear setup with lower amounts of ARP stats from gear. My original plan was a WIS/INT HR, basically a utility-based HR that aims to be more of a party support/node-holder than a burst, but I'm open to other possible builds with the idea of a speed-crit HR in mind. I just like the idea of being able to have access to Marauder's Escape on the fly thanks to the RSI + CD Reduction Feats. Would be a real pain for melees to face a class that is able to extend the gap between themselves whenever he wishes to. Or at least that's how I've been theorizing one of the builds I have in mind for the Archery Path.
I'm liking the results of your tests with Tiah. The idea of improving one of the HR's best features which is being able to dodge more than any other class in the game should prove to be competitive. It'll be highly skill-based and will test a player's reaction time but I can imagine a lot of players will want to train one up. 8 consecutive dodges is insane. Just checked Tiah's post on p26. Just crazy. It'll be part of the build with Aimed Shot in it right? Can't wait to see results from a level 60 environment!
Just saw the new patch notes for the HR and I must say... ouch, the nerf for Split the Sky and Thorn Ward was pretty drastic. Were they THAT good? I wasn't able to experience them for myself before this patch happened. Not sure what's so devastating about Aimed Shot getting a -10% reduction to the damage output. IMO HR's will still live with this and Aimed Shot will always be a viable At-Will due to the possible 93' range it can have. Getting interrupted while shooting from max range is the least of an Archer HR's worries. Split Shot's 30% nerf isn't too surprising. Had it coming I say.
I'd like to see Fox Shift's new mechanic in action, however. It sounds pretty neat, much better than the previous "jump to five targets once each" mechanic.
I'm curious about how much Rapid Shot was hurt, however. I'm imagining this nerf is a precaution for PVP since this is a pretty spammable At-Will that can deal devastating amounts of damage from 93' range. You're practically untouchable at this range with the use of elevations.
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werealchemistMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'd like to see Fox Shift's new mechanic in action, however. It sounds pretty neat, much better than the previous "jump to five targets once each" mechanic.
IDK about it being better because its down to 3 jumps from 5 so that's a 40% nerf overall
Just saw the new patch notes for the HR and I must say... ouch, the nerf for Split the Sky and Thorn Ward was pretty drastic. Were they THAT good? I wasn't able to experience them for myself before this patch happened. Not sure what's so devastating about Aimed Shot getting a -10% reduction to the damage output. IMO HR's will still live with this and Aimed Shot will always be a viable At-Will due to the possible 93' range it can have. Getting interrupted while shooting from max range is the least of an Archer HR's worries. Split Shot's 30% nerf isn't too surprising. Had it coming I say.
They weren't THAT good, but they were very solid. I think it is possible they will get a slight boost before release to bring them more in line with other skills. They were fantastic with someone who has solid twitch gameplay skills, but that's fair for the entire class description.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
I would like to thank all of the crybaby PvP'ers who hate going against Rangers for crying, "That's too OP!"
Great work!
Nerfed the hell out of the Hunter Ranger!
You should be able to cream them now.
(And I was just starting to like the Hunter Ranger class.)
(I hope you have to wait days to get into a match!)
Edit:
Been trying to play the HR, but it's completely useless to me, now.
Great Work!
Ranged sucks a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> now, but Melee is still okay if you have enough deflect. I wonder how long before they decide that Rangers shouldn't be able to us melee effectively and nerf that too lol. I have faith that the devs will see that they screwed up and fix it but if not then i'm going to be pretty upset because I've been waiting since beta for a ranger class and I want it to actually be playable.
Split Shot: The damage dealt by this power has been reduced by 30%.
Split the Sky: The return damage dealt by this power has been reduced by 60%.
Thorn Ward: The damage dealt by this power has been reduced by 20%.
I do not feel that this was well thought out. Yes, the class feels a bit over the top in the early levels, but none of these three skills feel anywhere near what they do at first, later on.
Thorn Ward, and Split the Skywere already just medium to mediocre damage at best, just handy for caves. If this is going to continue, then the Radius, and duration of these effects should be increased as well as the cool-down time be reduced.
Split Shot: Yes, early on this skill feels a bit over the top, being comparatively one shot more powerful than Wiz class equivalent but it's damage did not stay this potent as the character leveled.
Split the Sky:Already had a huge disadvantage that if the target within it's radius happen to drop any Ground target effects (I.E) gaseous webs, the StS storm would forget about the mob and attack the mobs Webs instead, now it's going to do that still, but do far less damage....
You guys failed to mention that Thorn Ward now does not last as long as it did.
These damage reductions feel far, far more drastic than stated. On the same exact mobs I was hunting last night which would take 3-4 shots, it now takes upwards of ten plus. Ranger has great mobility, but not so much that you can afford to get swamped and by mobs which take you almost %60+ more to kill now at equal levels.
Split Shot is doing far too little damage now, I'm hitting mobs which I hit for 1k+ last night, now for 150 - 179 average. Rapid Shot seems to have also been reduced in it's damage, yet this was not mentioned.
The problem was not that the early skills did too much, but that the higher tier skills did too little in comparison.
Now the same area I was in last night, which is equal level and was already a struggle, took much planning and positioning of my character, is now something I'll have to come back to in a few levels, as it is total death now. Yes, that's just what all players want, to have to hunt in areas that are 2-4 levels lower than their character.... These adjustments were not well thought out, and are far too drastic. My CW is x2 as capable just in damages as my test Ranger now, before they were about on par with each other.
Split Shot: The damage dealt by this power has been reduced by 30%.
Split the Sky: The return damage dealt by this power has been reduced by 60%.
Thorn Ward: The damage dealt by this power has been reduced by 20%.
I do not feel that this was well thought out. Yes, the class feels a bit over the top in the early levels, but none of these three skills feel anywhere near what they do at first, later on.
Thorn Ward, and Split the Skywere already just medium to mediocre damage at best, just handy for caves. If this is going to continue, then the Radius, and duration of these effects should be increased as well as the cool-down time be reduced.
Split Shot: Yes, early on this skill feels a bit over the top, being comparatively one shot more powerful than Wiz class equivalent but it's damage did not stay this potent as the character leveled.
Split the Sky:Already had a huge disadvantage that if the target within it's radius happen to drop any Ground target effects (I.E) gaseous webs, the StS storm would forget about the mob and attack the mobs Webs instead, now it's going to do that still, but do far less damage....
These are pretty much the things I said the very night this patch hit.
I would like to thank all of the crybaby PvP'ers who hate going against Rangers for crying, "That's too OP!"
Great work!
Nerfed the hell out of the Hunter Ranger!
You should be able to cream them now.
(And I was just starting to like the Hunter Ranger class.)
(I hope you have to wait days to get into a match!)
Edit 1:
Been trying to play the HR, but it's completely useless to me, now.
Great Work!
Edit 2:
I am so pissed off, I can't even play Neverwinter.
There are pages and pages of PvE complaints about the HR's weak, or useless skills, but because a handful of PvP'ers love skills like Aimed Shot, it doesn't get fixed.
A handful of PvP'ers complain skills are OP, and they all get nerfed.
And yet, the dozens and dozens of PvE suggestions for improvements get completely ignored!
I can't play a game where the minority rules.
I hope that you are not a representative for the PvE population, because I would hate to feel as if you were supposed to be representing me with your statements.
You might personally hate PvP, but even in PvE-only games the calls for balance and nerfs are still just as frequent. And balance passes happen just as often. You seem to feel as if these changes were only brought about by PvP players, and maybe that's all you know.
But please let me pass some experience down to you: PvE players are just as competitive as PvP players. They are just as dedicated to the game and their view of balance. In fact, there's very rarely a PvP player who isn't also a PvE player, too. Everyone complains.
If you want to see an example of this, look at Control Wizards. The calls for nerfs against CW's have been going strong since beta. CW's aren't exceptionally good at PvP. In fact, many of the higher-end arena groups leave them out of party comp in favor of two TR's, GF's or GWF's.
But in PvE, they are exceptional. In most cases, to make the dungeon or skirmish run go as fast as possible, it's actually a well known fact that if you drop the GF, the GWF and sometimes even the TR, you can get better results.
PvE players know this. And not everyone just accepts the fact that, since it's PvE and the enemy is an NPC and not a player, that there's no reason to worry about some other class being better than theirs. In fact, it does affect their game, because it prevents other classes from being chosen for dungeons outright!
So just like with pvp players, the complaints come out. Calls for nerf, again and again and again.
All players, in PvP or PvE, are known for bias. If a class you play feels exceptionally strong and good, the MAJORITY will silently keep those thoughts to themselves in order to keep their hold on their abilities. If a class you don't play is doing better than you, you'll be prone to post your opinions and views on their capabilities, asking for changes to bring them in line with you.
If these are the rules you accept when considering feedback given, you have to start from the earliest assumption that those who talk are haters, and those who aren't saying anything are willing to break the system in their favor. Sadly, personal experience with over a decade of gaming has still not shone me any examples that this assumption is false. The vast majority of players simply don't care about 'balance' being fair. They care about their personal playstyle being superior to others.
Developers, on the other hand, can't prefer a playstyle, or the game itself can't function properly.
My point overall? You're being biased, you're being incredibly rude and insulting, you're exaggerating the issue because you want to throw a fit about it, and you're not helping the situation at all. You've probably already told everyone in your guild and on your friends list that HR is horrible now, and I doubt you've tested the new changes for more than 30 minutes. You are now going out of your way to demonize not just the developers, but to also hurt any other players who might be able to make the class work, by attempting to talk your buddies into disliking them just as much as you.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
My point overall? You're being biased, you're being incredibly rude and insulting, you're exaggerating the issue because you want to throw a fit about it, and you're not helping the situation at all. You've probably already told everyone in your guild and on your friends list that HR is horrible now, and I doubt you've tested the new changes for more than 30 minutes. You are now going out of your way to demonize not just the developers, but to also hurt any other players who might be able to make the class work, by attempting to talk your buddies into disliking them just as much as you.
If I came off as rude, or insulting, I apologize to everyone.
BTW-I tried playing it for 3 hours last night, and 2 hours this morning, I thought my problems last night were due to my being tired. Or, from the bug that this and STO (both cryptic/pwe games) have seeing my mouse. No problems in other games, just these two.
And, no, I have said nothing to anyone, anywhere, except here.
"To each, his own." I guess.
My gripes throughout this thread stem from the fact that my son and I have been playing D&D since 1984.
We started out with PnP just before the AD&D rules came out through the 3.5 rules, eventually switching to the various computer games and mmo's.
My complaints stem from my love of D&D, where it's players against evil, not players vs players. (C&W bars are for players vs players ;p )
And, because I love D&D, have played it for so long, the Hunter Ranger, and it's skills, are annoying for not matching, or even coming close to D&D rules. If you haven't already, try playing DDO, and even though DDO is based on the 3.5 rules, and Neverwinter is based on the 4e rules, the skills are almost the same, and quite unlike those here, in Neverwinter.
Go for the eyes, Boo!GO FOR THE EYES!!! (Where's a Miniature Giant Space Hamster when you need one?)
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werealchemistMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It's still working for me. Perhaps I got off easily as the only skill I was using that took a significant hit was split shot, I now use rapid shot instead. Aimed shot is still good. I don't do pvp or group content and I'm only at level 30, so my requirements for class performance may be lower. *shrug*
If I came off as rude, or insulting, I apologize to everyone.
BTW-I tried playing it for 3 hours last night, and 2 hours this morning, I thought my problems last night were due to my being tired. Or, from the bug that this and STO (both cryptic/pwe games) have seeing my mouse. No problems in other games, just these two.
And, no, I have said nothing to anyone, anywhere, except here.
"To each, his own." I guess.
My gripes throughout this thread stem from the fact that my son and I have been playing D&D since 1984.
We started out with PnP just before the AD&D rules came out through the 3.5 rules, eventually switching to the various computer games and mmo's.
My complaints stem from my love of D&D, where it's players against evil, not players vs players. (C&W bars are for players vs players ;p )
And, because I love D&D, have played it for so long, the Hunter Ranger, and it's skills, are annoying for not matching, or even coming close to D&D rules. If you haven't already, try playing DDO, and even though DDO is based on the 3.5 rules, and Neverwinter is based on the 4e rules, the skills are almost the same, and quite unlike those here, in Neverwinter.
Then if I made the wrong assumptions off of your response, I'm sorry. I'm personally partial to the issues, because of the negative feedback my own favored class, GWF, has received, which has gone a long way into painting us as a red-headed stepchild when my own personal experiences with the class showed we were anything but. I miss out on dungeons, not because me or my class can't do the job, but because those setting up the group BELIEVE we cannot.
Another issue I will raise is that I have not tested the new changes. My own personal experience pre-nerf was that the ranged attacks had too much oomph, and the melee had too little. But this was low level, and my experiences apparently matched many others. I don't doubt that this feedback was taking into consideration. I only hope that, if the class is as penalized as many seem to believe post-nerf, that HR sees gradual improvements to bring us on par with how the Devs see the class standing, in balance with other classes all around.
I have also been a long-time fan of DnD. My first system was the old red-box Dungeons and Dragons set, followed that same year by the AD&D set.
But one of the very first things I did was setup Player versus Player encounters. Almost every single group I've been in since has had some form of PvP, either on a social level or combat between players. The rules have almost always been very well rounded in that regard, barring a couple powers which the DM's had to interfere with.
Plus, I have always felt that the old Pen and Paper gamers would be the most open to a PvP environment. That they would have the most appreciation for the challenge of another player. Because that's what the DM was. A player. He managed things, true, but he also gave each NPC and each opponent life and thought, that has not been reached by any AI in any game I've ever seen. There is simply no scripted sequence that can match a creative, thinking opponent.
I see much hate aimed at players who enjoy PvP coming from the 'PvE-only' crowd. Considering those players are happy to adventure with us when we're running dungeons with them, but want to take away a part of the game we enjoy and are happy to see us go away otherwise ... just seems sad.
As far as the comparison between Hunter Ranger and 4e ... I don't specifically know where to stand. I see what mechanics have changed for GWF to take the ruleset from a turn-based game to an active MMO, and I can deduce a lot of reasons why those changes were made or had to be made. I understand that this is an adaptation, and the limitations holding fast to those rules would create (one reason why I don't play DDO, as I don't think the 3e rules were adapted well enough to keep the game balanced and enjoyable).
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
I have been a pen and paper player for 30 years. I don't do PvP as there are people that are so full of themselves that it isn't worth the headache to deal with PvP. I have been playing MMOs since 2000 and have seen games that have PvP in them get trashed by the PvP community. And once again that is happening here. I am losing all the enjoyment here due to the majority of PvP crowd enforcing their views on the classes and the devs listening. Devs need to listen to the PvE crowd also and they didn't in this case.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited November 2013
Not a soul has said, "yup, now it's perfect and we're not going to make any more changes before we go live with the HR".
Keep posting feedback, but don't assume the worst. Did they keep the AD cost on refining enchantments?
I wouldn't be surprised if some people have already stopped playing the HR due to all this nerfing of the class. And if less people are playing it then there won't be much feedback and the class is dead before it goes Live.
I have been a pen and paper player for 30 years. I don't do PvP as there are people that are so full of themselves that it isn't worth the headache to deal with PvP. I have been playing MMOs since 2000 and have seen games that have PvP in them get trashed by the PvP community. And once again that is happening here. I am losing all the enjoyment here due to the majority of PvP crowd enforcing their views on the classes and the devs listening. Devs need to listen to the PvE crowd also and they didn't in this case.
Common, once again. It's very biased in segregating an 'us' versus 'them'. As if those same players aren't the same one's you run dungeons with every day.
This game does not support a 'PvP Only' playerbase.
It's possible you've never PvP'd. Or if you did, you saw the competitiveness and more-often-than-not friendly banter between players as insulting or rude (because nobody ever cusses someone else out in a dungeon for not healing as well as they should, or not tanking the aggro enough, etc). Maybe you just count all PvPers as kids and think it can't possibly be something two reasonable adults would partake in.
Problem with all this, is that the same derogatory thoughts you have towards a specific style of player, can be applied in equal measure to all players. This isn't representative of PvPers. The call for nerfs, the call for changes, the wish to break the game to help only themselves: this isn't just pvpers at all, it's universal.
You don't think a single CW or TR who plays only PvE hasn't gotten in this very thread and asked for HR to be nerfed, hoping that they wouldn't lose their place in PvE? I know of three, personally, in this very thread. One who's made multiple posts on this forum, blatantly asking for nerfs. And he doesn't touch PvP at all.
It's hard to handle part of the community you are a member of segregating you off, openly wishing you wouldn't play the way you love to play, simply because you enjoy a different part of the game than them. I can't take those rants any more serious than the players who want crafting removed because they personally hate doing it and only house wives and OCD nerds craft in video games. Or those who think adding achievements and collections are a waste of space, because only the killing of monsters counts.
Lastly: In the MMO world, I can name more games which have been closed and are no longer here because they attempted to limit and remove PvP, than I can games that are closed or removed because they expanded PvP. Sadly for your argument, the challenge and replayability associated with PvP does a far better job of attracting and keeping gamers playing a game, than pushing them away.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Comments
See it that way, at least they have learnt from the mistakes they have made in the past and aren't going to release an OP class. Besides, the HR still is deadly in every aspect. It depends on how one plays it, i guess.
Its like a wizard with no control effects on thier skills. The damage is what they got going for them.
Im highly against the current state of Split Shot and Thorn Ward and Split the Sky.
even Aimed Shot even though its not that big of a difference in damage, given its so difficult to use this skill consistantly at its current state since the most subtle breeze can interrupt its very long cast time.
Thier reductions is just so severe.
a Pure ranger is hurt badly in this.
Don't get me wrong i'm not saying they don't have enough mobility, but they have no mobile ranged attacks which is what makes a ranger FEEL like a ranger. (IMO)
None of the classes can move and attack o0 why should the ranger be an exception?
Because the ranger isn't any of the other classes
Riiiight... i know many people would like a hunter similiar to the one in WoW. Backpaddling and pew - pew - pew, throw in the occassional space bar spamming along with roots/snares etc.... right? But this isn't WoW. And a class should not have a huge advantage above others, just because it is not "one of the other classes".
Riiiight... I'm not asking for a pet to do all my damage for me if you go ahead and read back to some of the previous posts
But thats the only At Will i say that should have that function for HR.
Other than that, Ranger should not have the ability to move and attack at the same time. Control Wizards originally had that function. And it just is not acceptable in a game like this.
Agreed, better under than over, but there is a long way between where we are and perfect. It would be silly to preview test the class, get feedback, and not act on it. Then again, anything is possible. It sure would be a huge lost opportunity to attract players back into the game.
Regarding GWF, it could be argued the effects were due to the class being weak for a long time, and not necessarily the beta nerf itself. It doesn't matter, we are fixed now. :-)
Good suggestions, Des! I find that enticing, forgoing the +10% RSI I can get from INT and just spec-ing for increased WIS/STR for better bursts in damage. The ARP from STR should also allow for a more relaxed gear setup with lower amounts of ARP stats from gear. My original plan was a WIS/INT HR, basically a utility-based HR that aims to be more of a party support/node-holder than a burst, but I'm open to other possible builds with the idea of a speed-crit HR in mind. I just like the idea of being able to have access to Marauder's Escape on the fly thanks to the RSI + CD Reduction Feats. Would be a real pain for melees to face a class that is able to extend the gap between themselves whenever he wishes to. Or at least that's how I've been theorizing one of the builds I have in mind for the Archery Path.
I'm liking the results of your tests with Tiah. The idea of improving one of the HR's best features which is being able to dodge more than any other class in the game should prove to be competitive. It'll be highly skill-based and will test a player's reaction time but I can imagine a lot of players will want to train one up. 8 consecutive dodges is insane.
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Just saw the new patch notes for the HR and I must say... ouch, the nerf for Split the Sky and Thorn Ward was pretty drastic. Were they THAT good? I wasn't able to experience them for myself before this patch happened. Not sure what's so devastating about Aimed Shot getting a -10% reduction to the damage output. IMO HR's will still live with this and Aimed Shot will always be a viable At-Will due to the possible 93' range it can have. Getting interrupted while shooting from max range is the least of an Archer HR's worries. Split Shot's 30% nerf isn't too surprising. Had it coming I say.
I'd like to see Fox Shift's new mechanic in action, however. It sounds pretty neat, much better than the previous "jump to five targets once each" mechanic.
I'm curious about how much Rapid Shot was hurt, however. I'm imagining this nerf is a precaution for PVP since this is a pretty spammable At-Will that can deal devastating amounts of damage from 93' range. You're practically untouchable at this range with the use of elevations.
IDK about it being better because its down to 3 jumps from 5 so that's a 40% nerf overall
They weren't THAT good, but they were very solid. I think it is possible they will get a slight boost before release to bring them more in line with other skills. They were fantastic with someone who has solid twitch gameplay skills, but that's fair for the entire class description.
Malabog's Hilt, Riser, and Limb (new item).
Neverwinter Wonderland
Neverwinter Wet & Wild
Neverwinter 2nd Anniversary Montage
Neverwinter Anniversary Montage
Protector's Jubilee Speech
Oh the Carnage
Removed a very bad rant.
(Where's a Miniature Giant Space Hamster when you need one?)
Ranged sucks a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> now, but Melee is still okay if you have enough deflect. I wonder how long before they decide that Rangers shouldn't be able to us melee effectively and nerf that too lol. I have faith that the devs will see that they screwed up and fix it but if not then i'm going to be pretty upset because I've been waiting since beta for a ranger class and I want it to actually be playable.
Split the Sky: The return damage dealt by this power has been reduced by 60%.
Thorn Ward: The damage dealt by this power has been reduced by 20%.
I do not feel that this was well thought out. Yes, the class feels a bit over the top in the early levels, but none of these three skills feel anywhere near what they do at first, later on.
Thorn Ward, and Split the Sky were already just medium to mediocre damage at best, just handy for caves. If this is going to continue, then the Radius, and duration of these effects should be increased as well as the cool-down time be reduced.
Split Shot: Yes, early on this skill feels a bit over the top, being comparatively one shot more powerful than Wiz class equivalent but it's damage did not stay this potent as the character leveled.
Split the Sky: Already had a huge disadvantage that if the target within it's radius happen to drop any Ground target effects (I.E) gaseous webs, the StS storm would forget about the mob and attack the mobs Webs instead, now it's going to do that still, but do far less damage....
You guys failed to mention that Thorn Ward now does not last as long as it did.
These damage reductions feel far, far more drastic than stated. On the same exact mobs I was hunting last night which would take 3-4 shots, it now takes upwards of ten plus. Ranger has great mobility, but not so much that you can afford to get swamped and by mobs which take you almost %60+ more to kill now at equal levels.
Split Shot is doing far too little damage now, I'm hitting mobs which I hit for 1k+ last night, now for 150 - 179 average. Rapid Shot seems to have also been reduced in it's damage, yet this was not mentioned.
The problem was not that the early skills did too much, but that the higher tier skills did too little in comparison.
Now the same area I was in last night, which is equal level and was already a struggle, took much planning and positioning of my character, is now something I'll have to come back to in a few levels, as it is total death now. Yes, that's just what all players want, to have to hunt in areas that are 2-4 levels lower than their character.... These adjustments were not well thought out, and are far too drastic. My CW is x2 as capable just in damages as my test Ranger now, before they were about on par with each other.
These are pretty much the things I said the very night this patch hit.
I hope that you are not a representative for the PvE population, because I would hate to feel as if you were supposed to be representing me with your statements.
You might personally hate PvP, but even in PvE-only games the calls for balance and nerfs are still just as frequent. And balance passes happen just as often. You seem to feel as if these changes were only brought about by PvP players, and maybe that's all you know.
But please let me pass some experience down to you: PvE players are just as competitive as PvP players. They are just as dedicated to the game and their view of balance. In fact, there's very rarely a PvP player who isn't also a PvE player, too. Everyone complains.
If you want to see an example of this, look at Control Wizards. The calls for nerfs against CW's have been going strong since beta. CW's aren't exceptionally good at PvP. In fact, many of the higher-end arena groups leave them out of party comp in favor of two TR's, GF's or GWF's.
But in PvE, they are exceptional. In most cases, to make the dungeon or skirmish run go as fast as possible, it's actually a well known fact that if you drop the GF, the GWF and sometimes even the TR, you can get better results.
PvE players know this. And not everyone just accepts the fact that, since it's PvE and the enemy is an NPC and not a player, that there's no reason to worry about some other class being better than theirs. In fact, it does affect their game, because it prevents other classes from being chosen for dungeons outright!
So just like with pvp players, the complaints come out. Calls for nerf, again and again and again.
All players, in PvP or PvE, are known for bias. If a class you play feels exceptionally strong and good, the MAJORITY will silently keep those thoughts to themselves in order to keep their hold on their abilities. If a class you don't play is doing better than you, you'll be prone to post your opinions and views on their capabilities, asking for changes to bring them in line with you.
If these are the rules you accept when considering feedback given, you have to start from the earliest assumption that those who talk are haters, and those who aren't saying anything are willing to break the system in their favor. Sadly, personal experience with over a decade of gaming has still not shone me any examples that this assumption is false. The vast majority of players simply don't care about 'balance' being fair. They care about their personal playstyle being superior to others.
Developers, on the other hand, can't prefer a playstyle, or the game itself can't function properly.
My point overall? You're being biased, you're being incredibly rude and insulting, you're exaggerating the issue because you want to throw a fit about it, and you're not helping the situation at all. You've probably already told everyone in your guild and on your friends list that HR is horrible now, and I doubt you've tested the new changes for more than 30 minutes. You are now going out of your way to demonize not just the developers, but to also hurt any other players who might be able to make the class work, by attempting to talk your buddies into disliking them just as much as you.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
If I came off as rude, or insulting, I apologize to everyone.
BTW-I tried playing it for 3 hours last night, and 2 hours this morning, I thought my problems last night were due to my being tired. Or, from the bug that this and STO (both cryptic/pwe games) have seeing my mouse. No problems in other games, just these two.
And, no, I have said nothing to anyone, anywhere, except here.
"To each, his own." I guess.
My gripes throughout this thread stem from the fact that my son and I have been playing D&D since 1984.
We started out with PnP just before the AD&D rules came out through the 3.5 rules, eventually switching to the various computer games and mmo's.
My complaints stem from my love of D&D, where it's players against evil, not players vs players. (C&W bars are for players vs players ;p )
And, because I love D&D, have played it for so long, the Hunter Ranger, and it's skills, are annoying for not matching, or even coming close to D&D rules. If you haven't already, try playing DDO, and even though DDO is based on the 3.5 rules, and Neverwinter is based on the 4e rules, the skills are almost the same, and quite unlike those here, in Neverwinter.
(Where's a Miniature Giant Space Hamster when you need one?)
They did actually
Then if I made the wrong assumptions off of your response, I'm sorry. I'm personally partial to the issues, because of the negative feedback my own favored class, GWF, has received, which has gone a long way into painting us as a red-headed stepchild when my own personal experiences with the class showed we were anything but. I miss out on dungeons, not because me or my class can't do the job, but because those setting up the group BELIEVE we cannot.
Another issue I will raise is that I have not tested the new changes. My own personal experience pre-nerf was that the ranged attacks had too much oomph, and the melee had too little. But this was low level, and my experiences apparently matched many others. I don't doubt that this feedback was taking into consideration. I only hope that, if the class is as penalized as many seem to believe post-nerf, that HR sees gradual improvements to bring us on par with how the Devs see the class standing, in balance with other classes all around.
I have also been a long-time fan of DnD. My first system was the old red-box Dungeons and Dragons set, followed that same year by the AD&D set.
But one of the very first things I did was setup Player versus Player encounters. Almost every single group I've been in since has had some form of PvP, either on a social level or combat between players. The rules have almost always been very well rounded in that regard, barring a couple powers which the DM's had to interfere with.
Plus, I have always felt that the old Pen and Paper gamers would be the most open to a PvP environment. That they would have the most appreciation for the challenge of another player. Because that's what the DM was. A player. He managed things, true, but he also gave each NPC and each opponent life and thought, that has not been reached by any AI in any game I've ever seen. There is simply no scripted sequence that can match a creative, thinking opponent.
I see much hate aimed at players who enjoy PvP coming from the 'PvE-only' crowd. Considering those players are happy to adventure with us when we're running dungeons with them, but want to take away a part of the game we enjoy and are happy to see us go away otherwise ... just seems sad.
As far as the comparison between Hunter Ranger and 4e ... I don't specifically know where to stand. I see what mechanics have changed for GWF to take the ruleset from a turn-based game to an active MMO, and I can deduce a lot of reasons why those changes were made or had to be made. I understand that this is an adaptation, and the limitations holding fast to those rules would create (one reason why I don't play DDO, as I don't think the 3e rules were adapted well enough to keep the game balanced and enjoyable).
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Keep posting feedback, but don't assume the worst. Did they keep the AD cost on refining enchantments?
See what happens in the next update.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Common, once again. It's very biased in segregating an 'us' versus 'them'. As if those same players aren't the same one's you run dungeons with every day.
This game does not support a 'PvP Only' playerbase.
It's possible you've never PvP'd. Or if you did, you saw the competitiveness and more-often-than-not friendly banter between players as insulting or rude (because nobody ever cusses someone else out in a dungeon for not healing as well as they should, or not tanking the aggro enough, etc). Maybe you just count all PvPers as kids and think it can't possibly be something two reasonable adults would partake in.
Problem with all this, is that the same derogatory thoughts you have towards a specific style of player, can be applied in equal measure to all players. This isn't representative of PvPers. The call for nerfs, the call for changes, the wish to break the game to help only themselves: this isn't just pvpers at all, it's universal.
You don't think a single CW or TR who plays only PvE hasn't gotten in this very thread and asked for HR to be nerfed, hoping that they wouldn't lose their place in PvE? I know of three, personally, in this very thread. One who's made multiple posts on this forum, blatantly asking for nerfs. And he doesn't touch PvP at all.
It's hard to handle part of the community you are a member of segregating you off, openly wishing you wouldn't play the way you love to play, simply because you enjoy a different part of the game than them. I can't take those rants any more serious than the players who want crafting removed because they personally hate doing it and only house wives and OCD nerds craft in video games. Or those who think adding achievements and collections are a waste of space, because only the killing of monsters counts.
Lastly: In the MMO world, I can name more games which have been closed and are no longer here because they attempted to limit and remove PvP, than I can games that are closed or removed because they expanded PvP. Sadly for your argument, the challenge and replayability associated with PvP does a far better job of attracting and keeping gamers playing a game, than pushing them away.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters