@bloodyspamer just for asking, mate, what do you think that "lock all classes to 1 or 2 roles max" means?
To others, just ignored @hypervoreian , he is just a liar whom doesn't stand the fact that his class (GF) is over performing and hate so much GWF class for no reason. For this very same reason (his lies), he was shadowbanned from forums for a really long time... and seems like he didn't learn anything from that.
@nitocris83 mind if you ask to someone to add an "ignore" button here on forums? would be really nice to ignore toxic players like the aforementioned one.
Edit: BTW, @darthtzarr , he doesn't know how the game works at all, he just "builds" his char and goes/walks forward.
That class locking, perhaps sounds to harsh. let me explain how I think all about this stuff..
image u have 100%. So how u split values? Well if u are striker it's obviously u put 60%/70% on offensive stats. Some perhaps even 90%. So u could deal biggest dmg and yet survive fights..
As tanker it's opposite. U putting 60%/70 in some cases 90% on defensive stats to make sure u can hold hits well, while party deal dmg.
Now if u making offtank and dps in same time. Then naturally its become 50%/50% . Thats mean good for solo play. Yet, not strongest dmg output, not strongest tank.
Here in neverwinter GF and GWF is this 50%/50% scenario, but works as it would be 80% offensive + 80% defensive. By logic it should not be like that.
So I proposed features/feats which would just extend their builds capability. If u go strikers path. you extend dmg. yet you give up some tankines.. IT;s not like u would not be able do it anymore. U could, but you will doing it way harder, because your stats will be adjusted in fight in favor for dmg boost.
As tanker build. you will lose part of dmg output. But extend your primary role tanking. U still gona be able hit, but dmg will not exceed full strikers build.
In other words, if u decide go strikers path, then 70% of you stats goes for dmg dealing. While 30% remain for survivability. And with 30% tanking, well I think only skilled players will be able do it. And if u tanker, your dmg will be adjusted in favor for tanking, so its like 70% for tanking, 30% for dmg. Now these values are just example. Because even if we decide to use this idea.. I prefer to see how it work in action, and then decide possible values. To make sure it will not break class, neither overbuff. (which is common in NWO )
He can be disregarded. His premise is the GWF is too tanky and too strong. But, he sees GF as balanced. I do not have the answers to class balance, but I know that nerfing GWF to the ground will solve nothing. GWF will just be replaced with GF. Why even invite a low DPS with no survivability and no utility? GWF only has damage to offer. Take that and what do you have left?
Now if u read my last 2 posts, which u didn't. U would notice, that I mentioend GF's too. Also I wrote that this idea could fit GF's in same way as GWF.
And now why I am now focused on GWF? Well this whole idea and these feats will rebalance builds within GWF class, to more precise destro and Sentinel.
Sentinell tank = gain even extra defensive stats, but lose some offensive stats. Destro gain more dmg, but lose some defensive stats.
Since destro stay as full dmg and will get defensive stats adjusted= he will be consider as other striker classes, furry SW, TR, HR, CW. And since party usually contain supporter = no big problems. And I am sure that skilled players would be fine.. As for hot headed keyboard smasher.. Well, probably they will not be able play carelessly anymore.
Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
You cant really think a secondary defender class should have a dodge. My SW doesnt even have a dodge. Then again if they do make it so that the GWF can be best Striker and Defender in the game we shall finally have balance. Because none will need to play anything else lol.
An immunity frame to a secondary feature,sprint,would break the game.Surely you must understand that the thing you ask is not logical.
GWf Forum community wants unreal things : And I say forum community cause they are dozens of competitive GWFs out there that never write in the forums or ask for nerfs to other classes.But ,most,of forum GWf players are of certain breed,which you can admire in the posts above.
" They have known since Mod 6 that Instigator and Sentinel are not viable and that IV is close to useless. They could throw us a bone and change a few feats to make them at least somewhat viable. CW has not seen anything but nerfs since what, Mod 4? They need a bone too. "
None of them ever made an Instigator or a Sent.Cause they do not care to be off tanks they want to be DPS.
All this talk about Sent is cheap tank ,Sent as an off tank is fine ,just none cares for him cause they do not want to play off tank and contribute to the team.What they want is to sprint ahead and be top paingiver ,while to have no need for the tank to come close-hence that's why they ask for defense buffs.
As for the mention of the CW class in the end,is the pitiful,yeah that is the word,to attract support ,to bow and beg support from the second most influential and noumerous class in the game.Pitifull.
-----------------------------
And why I participate in the thread: I could care less for a casual game that i play 2 hours -max-per day and if one class is overperforming:I don't care honestly. I do care though when people show hypocricy and vile character.That pisses me off
I dont think in the last two years that any nerf campaign for any class started by non GWfs. It is always the same.HRs in mod2,initial SWs,stealth att will depleting in Trs,mod4 SoS GFs,mod6 GFs and on ....all nerfed by the GWf crowd.
Forum GWFs are like the bullies in the street..brave in packs but when confronted they hide behind shadow bans ,reports and beg moderators to add ignore button..
example:First they make a vague,overdramatic,hidden nerf begging, statement with out providing any data like: "BTW, GF class already has tankyness AND DPS together buffer, aggro holder, healer, controller and other roles... This nonsense must end for good. ASAP if devs want to keep alive the game. "
When you fight back their answer is ...
"To others, just ignored @hypervoreian , he is just a liar whom doesn't stand the fact that his class (GF) is over performing and hate so much GWF class for no reason. For this very same reason (his lies), he was shadowbanned from forums for a really long time... and seems like he didn't learn anything from that.
@nitocris83 mind if you ask to someone to add an "ignore" button here on forums? would be really nice to ignore toxic players like the aforementioned one.
Edit: BTW, @darthtzarr , he doesn't know how the game works at all, he just "builds" his char and goes/walks forward. "
Another statement :
"I do not have the answers to class balance, but I know that nerfing GWF to the ground will solve nothing. GWF will just be replaced with GF. Why even invite a low DPS with no survivability and no utility? GWF only has damage to offer"
Why you started the thread then?Why you post and write and attack other classes in dozens of posts and threads if you do not have the answers?
In all these posts you have no proposal for your class not a single one,absoltely zero positive contribution. What you made adamantantly clear was that.... "You know this game is busted when the class that performs best against GWF in FBI is GF, a tank. SMH. "
"I have been playing GWF since Mod 2. I, for the life of me, cannot find a build like the one described by people that allows us to beat other classes who are 4k item level by 3 times the damage when we are 2-3k. It sure is not Laz or Lia's build, I have tried those. What is the secret? What feats or powers am I missing? "
Yes, that was a long time ago when I was a PVP GWF just learning PVE and Epeen Paingiver contests. How about you explain how it is okay for a GF to have an 80% RDI shield and at the same time have Fighter's Recovery and the second highest DPS in the game. It was GFs and other classes saying that GWF was that strong, not me. They never were though.
Uh... sorry to nitpick, but what's RDI stand for?
Because I've never seen RDI as an acronym for the GF's shield's 80% damage mitigation.
Yes, that was a long time ago when I was a PVP GWF just learning PVE and Epeen Paingiver contests. How about you explain how it is okay for a GF to have an 80% RDI shield and at the same time have Fighter's Recovery and the second highest DPS in the game? It was GFs and other classes saying that GWF was that strong, not me. They never were though.
If you're comparing the Conqueror GF in the DPS tank role to the GWF's pure striker role, then here's your answer:
High risk high reward playstyle.
Other videogames can balance a character's extremely good properties around knowledge, skill, or timing. For example, Dr. Doom in Ultimate Marvel Versus Capcom 3 has great infinite combos, decently good health, and great synergy with teams, but requires a player know how to make use out of the game in order to make the most out of Doom. Any fool off the street can't pull off consistent TAC Infinites with Doom, because it requires practice and knowledge.
Likewise with the Conqueror: it is a high risk high reward option. It is not easy to play and definetly isn't easy to gear either. And it also requires you to take a risk.
If you're going to say that a Conqueror GF has their shield which protects them better than the GWF, then yes, it's true. But if you sit behind your shield all day, you don't deal much DPS (and good luck shielding the random red circles during the FBI hill climb, I tried it with 180k HP, 95% DR, and 40% EF Resist, and I still dropped dead. Try that on a squisher GF). And if you attempt to facetank some abilities without using your shield (ex: Drufti IBS, Storvald IBS, Stovald Duumverate, Dragon Turtle Steam Blast/Hullshredder), you're going to have a bad time.
If you're going to make the argument that you only need to block certain attacks, then yes, that's true, but it's also balanced. This is connected to the core tennet of the GF: planning and thinking. You need to be able to know and recognize these attacks in order to know when/how to shield them, which is connected to the skill element of the GF.
If you're going to make the argument that GFs can go full offense and not commit to defense, that's not true. Gearing your GF requires you to make a choice in how you gear it. Kalephi, for example, runs his (her? not sure) GF with a Fire Archon + double offense slot rings. Kalephi has to make a sacrifice in defense to augment his (her?) GF's offense.
If I use double offense slot rings in my GF, I need to sacrifice the defensive slots on my GF. If I use Shield Talent or Guarded Assault in place of Shield Warrior's Wrath or Steel Blitz, I sacrifice some of my offense for defense. If I use Knight's Challenge to double my damage, I also take double damage from boss attacks. Which means, I block and lose my Wrathful Warrior bonus within the blink of an eye, or I don't guard any hits and hit the dirt. If I deactivate Knight's Challenge, I lose half of my damage output, and if I don't, well, I hit the dirt. I can partially mitigate it by picking other defensive options (insignia bonuses, lifesteal boons, etc.), but I have to make less mistakes than a Protector or Tactician counterpart.
If you're going to make the argument that the Conqueror has offensive capabilities as well as the GWF, that's not true. The Conqueror GF needs to get hit to activate their damage bonuses, but if . In addition, the Conqueror GF lacks any natrual Crit chance or feats which boost power at the same time at survivability (us GFs don't get Steely Defense). The GWF, meanwhile, can activate both Destroyer and Destroyer's Purpose from attacking things.
And here's some questions I'll ask you:
Have you played a low-item level DPS-tank GF? Have you even played a high itemlevel DPS GF? Have you analyzed how the DPS tank fights? Have you tried to balance both your tanking duties, buffing your team, and dealing maximum damage all at the same time?
Try it. Try competing for top paingiver in FBI/Svardborg while defending yourself and team, in addition to buffing your team as well as a dedicated buffing GF. I gurantee you, it's not easy to do all of those roles well, and there's only one GF in the community that deal deal top-tier damage, defend both himself and teammates like a pro, and buff as well as dedicated buffers.
Don't pull the "can tank + DPS low-tier dungeons" card on me. With enough gear, you can do this with every class. GWF has Lazalia who did it, CW has Freedom and Sharpedge (I think Syndra too, but I don't watch livestreams), and even Michela herself even solo'd Epic Gray Wolf a while back. With enough gear and efforts, any class can DPS/tank Tier1s/Tier2s.
And don't give me that bull that "but I've seen videos, it's proof enough". I can watch videos of Fernuu playing SW and claim its overpowered in DPS, but I have no substantial proof of the class. I can watch videos of Sume playing HR, but I lack any proof because I don't understand how a HR fights. I can watch videos of WickedDuck or Prokiller playing GWF, but that doesn't mean I can falsely claim GWF is overpowered without owning and playing a GWF in endgame content (and before you start asking if I play a GWF, yes, I own a GWF, I understand the issues with the GWF at the moment).
Haha. Ya, Reduced Incoming Damage. No clue why I put RDI, except dude gets me worked up with the personal attacks that I do not deserve. His hate for GWF is passionate. As if I am really a GWF and not a human or something.... RID is on a separate layer from DR, so it stacks with DR making GF near invincible. GWF's petty DR pales in comparison. A GF with shield up and 80% DR take 4% damage, that is right, 4%.
Look, I'm not here to pick a fight, nor make personal enemies. Life is too short, and we all have enough problems in our daily lives (which is why we all come here, right?). If I came off as a little rude, I'm sorry.
But, I wanted to make a point to you, and everyone else here: please, don't make a claim unless you have substantial proof and understanding backing your theory.
Defiant, have you wondered why most of the GF community is unhappy with you?
Did you provide any statistical and playstyle proof, such as providing the numerical feats and playstyle articulation, when you popped into certain threads? I can look at the posts, but I see no numbers or % in your arguments or talk & understanding about playstyle, which leads to the GF community labeling you as someone who should be disregarded for not knowing anything about the GF. For claiming all GFs are broken, have you tried to play a Protector or Tactician GF as a DPS character which competes with Thaum CWs or Fury SWs? I gurantee you'll get laughed at for trying.
Your issue is not the entire argument (you have some fair points), but the way you present your argument provides little proof of your understanding of the GF class, which is why much of the GF community isn't happy with you. Try articulating your arguments with more arguements which present your understanding, and maybe others will direct less vitriol to your thoughts.
GWF haters, this goes double for you as well. We can all make GWF Flowchart jokes, but have you guys actually tried to play a sucessful GWF outside of the Destroyer? Good luck trying that in endgame (if you can solotank FBI as a Sentinel with a Healadin, then I demand proof). Have you guys tried anything outside the usual "Destroyer/Wrathful/IBS/Daggers/Focused Destroyer/Destroyer's Purpose high crit" setup? Good luck, you'll get outdamaged by other DPSers with more versatile setups. Can you count the number of times that teams were dying to have a Instigator "buffer" GWF? Yeah, me neither.
People may not see each other eye to eye, but is it possible that we can ... I don't know, get along? Or, at least, give each other charitable reads and at least try to see the understanding behind the argument?
And that part in italics is excessively cruel, I don't think *everyone* sees you, or should see you as that. It creates a cycle of revenge that never stops, and we need less mortal enemies and more openness to others' ideas.
Label me as the idealistic kid all you want. But I see no point in petty bickering, if there's more to be gained from cooperation.
Good point anri. And yeah defiatone there is a reason they want to be buffed. So would u agree buff every other striker by about 50% dmg. And give GWF a dodge. I think most ppl will be happy then
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited April 2017
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
@rjc9000 a little nitpicking of my own (if you will allow it.)
At the moment I don't know any gfs who sacrifice all defense and go offense BUT (and here is the big but) if you were to put your faith in the DC...
There is a lot of wasted DR that DCs give you that could actually see itself being useful if you were willing to trust them. It isn't quite the major sacrifice you think it is.
The core of my argument is, you can solo T1s and T2s in a full dps gf spec without anything invested into defense and for T3s, you kind of want to run them with a good group (and with a good dc) anyhow.
So with loadouts, will you make a full dps spec plz? (yeah ik ik, me asking you this is REALLY getting old. :P)
Stats are not why Sentinel does not work as a tank. It has no party buffs, no way to hold aggro, Daring Shout was nerfed to not draw aggro at all, and no way to survive since we do not have a dodge, a block or a large temp hp pool. It has to be reworked totally before it can even work. It has no damage at all, cuz GWF damage currently comes from the end of the Destroyer tree and they nerfed Intimidation.
Party buffs?? So what, now GWF must be buffer to in order be OK?
So why don't we add CW'S Crown controlling capabilities, DC's healing capabilities, TR"s MI stealth mechanic. Would that make OK ??? Because seems u just want boil all possible roles in one class. And this is far from game and class balancing.. All u wan is to have >> The One<< class. OR perhaps u forgot what GWF is in first place? should I remind u?(sarcasm)
Next, did u know that offtanking is not full tanking? . It's seems nop. So read next lines if u want to understand what is offtanking..
It's when >>>any class<< player have high defensive stats, and due that can face group of enemies without tank's help. . Usually offtanks in mmorpg classes don't have any agression/threat generating capabilties at all. And it's role is just run in front and receive incoming hits from aggressive monsters and make sure the party who run behind u would't not get hits. However because offtank don't have threat/aggro generation, it's require other type of gameplay.. CC or debuffs elements is most common in such runs..
And as example,Time to time I go in pub queue for mid tear dungeons. To help new players complete dungeons. And due my stats, I offtank there, get most hits from monsters and bosses, and all is jut to make sure, that team would not die.
So offtanking is not full tanking.. And only build which would allow GWF tank is Sentinel. Not destro, not Instigator, just sentinel.
Next' U complain that u guys don't have dodge... but unlike other classes u wearing heavy armor... Also your dash give u some DR increase while it's active.
Sw received current dodge mechanic with immunity(1s) due certain reasons.. 1) SW don't wear heavy armor 2) it's not close range class.
Now, GWF is heavy armor wearing class? Yes Do it's close range class = yes. Your proclaimed dodge is mostly is not dodge, but dash toward enemies in fight. Now imagine pvp, and we give GWF same dodge mechanic as SW have now. Do u think SW would have lot of chance to fight? Whats about CW? HR? You look to all things from GWF view point only. But seems u don't undestand that this game is not for GWF only.
Also I can bet from 2000 euro, that you have all your boons, gear, mounts, insignias set up to get extra dmg increase.. And you haven't pick any defensive boon at all. Yet complaining how poor your tanking is.
Perhaps time to pick some of them, u would be surprised how much tanking u can increase with boons..
As for temp HP pool, temp HP don't give extra Defensive stat increase. It's just give you small time frame to restore HP, via HP potions, via Healer, via Companion healer, via life steal. Or even get in distance from enemy. But one thing is clear. If u have poor defensive stats,, so even trillion temp HP would not save you. One hit and u dead. Temporal HP is not best tool to keep GlassCannon alive..
If u want extra survivability, OK, then we can make solution, but give me break, u should stop thinking about GWF only.. Or claiming how in bad situation this class is. I have GWF's in friend list who doing endgame content. And I always ask them due their experience, what changes could make GWF OK, yet avoid making them overpowered. And mostly I prefer talking with guys who have more than 1 character. The one who have either SW, GF, GWF HR CW. Even DC. So this guy will also write solution by counting in possible outcomes and interaction with other classes.. *********************************************************** <blockquote class="UserQuote">
Good point anri. And yeah defiatone there is a reason they want to be buffed. So would u agree buff every other striker by about 50% dmg. And give GWF a dodge. I think most ppl will be happy then
I agree. Some dodging can be implemented. But we also need to keep in mind, this game have pvp too. But for this part I prefer GWF's guys write possible solution. Yet Also prefer that other than defiantone99 would do it.
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
Last time you were asked ,you answered you knew only two.over a year ago.have you progressed from that point?i am just curious?You know 3 now?maybe 4?
" if you were to put your faith in the DC..."
A tank that puts faith to protect its team,into the abilities of another toon,is a fail tank,just my personal opinion. Most GFs tank CN with out healer now ,your paradigm of GF would require a DC to do that.Warp-time travel to glorious 2015,your proposal seems so.
" It isn't quite the major sacrifice you think it is."
So ,you are saying here that Defiant is correct?I guess old buddies in your nerf company are difficult to forget.
"The core of my argument is, you can solo T1s and T2s in a full dps gf spec without anything invested into defense and for T3s, you kind of want to run them with a good group (and with a good dc) anyhow."
The core of your argument is that you showed up in a troll thread picking sides indirectly ,while you add nothing to conversation. The core argument is that you soloed CN first as a CW but when devs tried to tone down CW buffs you started posting ACTs. But you have to mention Gf and soloing.Indirectly amplifying the GWf critique and endorsing them.
But I am not surprised Sharp...I mean you were the person that was defending Lost set ..right? or that person that said in a GF nerf thread ,that you consider GWfs "balanced"....
C ya
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Last time you were asked ,you answered you knew only two.over a year ago.have you progressed from that point?i am just curious?You know 3 now?maybe 4?
" if you were to put your faith in the DC..."
A tank that puts faith to protect its team,into the abilities of another toon,is a fail tank,just my personal opinion. Most GFs tank CN with out healer now ,your paradigm of GF would require a DC to do that.Warp-time travel to glorious 2015,your proposal seems so.
" It isn't quite the major sacrifice you think it is."
So ,you are saying here that Defiant is correct?I guess old buddies in your nerf company are difficult to forget.
"The core of my argument is, you can solo T1s and T2s in a full dps gf spec without anything invested into defense and for T3s, you kind of want to run them with a good group (and with a good dc) anyhow."
The core of your argument is that you showed up in a troll thread picking sides indirectly ,while you add nothing to conversation. The core argument is that you soloed CN first as a CW but when devs tried to tone down CW buffs you started posting ACTs. But you have to mention Gf and soloing.Indirectly amplifying the GWf critique and endorsing them.
But I am not surprised Sharp...I mean you were the person that was defending Lost set ..right? or that person that said in a GF nerf thread ,that you consider GWfs "balanced"....
C ya
@hypervoreian I actually have no interest in this argument, I wasn't agreeing with anyone and my comment was probably completely offtopic.
On the subject on pure dps gfs, yeah, Freya is taking a break from NW, which means technically I know none.
For team building purposes, it would be damn well awesome if I knew at the very least 1 pure dps gf, (which is why I am trying to convince anri.)
I don't consider a tank that puts faith in its team a fail tank, I consider it teamwork. True, in a worse team, the tank will fail, but in a good team, that tank will truly shine. With loadouts coming, I foresee great potential for groups where the players are willing to admit that they work better, that their builds work better, if they work together. If they are willing to make sacrifices in their builds, knowing that someone else in a team they are a part of will pick up that sacrifice for them. The willingness to do this, is what will set apart the good groups from the great groups imo.
At this point in the game, class balance doesn't hold much interest to me, I just want to run stuff. To be honest, with maybe the exception of trs, I feel classes are quite well balanced at the moment. Just a random thing you might find funny is if you ask duck he wants GWF to have a survivability nerf to stop gwfs from running ahead in dungeons (he doesn't like that gameplay style.) Does GWF do more damage than other classes? Yes it does. Does it matter that much? Not really, I barely ever see, "lf gwf" for the most part I just see, "lf dps" so no dps classes are getting excluded. (Although I have seen trs getting rejected from some groups in channels rather sadly.)
I am actually not siding with anyone in this thread, so don't paint me as siding with defiantone please. The argument I was making there was more a personal thing between anri and I for quite a while now, where I have been trying to sell him on dps gf. It in no way relates to the balance discussion here.
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
The majority of players that I see trying to play a "DPS GF" aren't good at it, don't pull it off very well, and also fail as tanks and buffers because they are too busy... umm... attempting to DPS.
The achievements of a few players are not representative of the entire class. It's not more fair than judging all GWFs by Lazalia or Lia (though they have previously taught their methods very well so the average GWF player had some excellent templates to build on). But that's just a restatement of the point @rjc9000 already made very well though it fell on deaf ears.
lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
IMHO, considering that I've been playing a GF since several mods ago as tank and then switched to DPS GF after mod 10 and it is already as maxed as my GWF, any nerf applied to the GWF will lead automatically to a nerf of the DPS GF at some point. If the GWF gets nerfed, switch to a GF and you will do similar damage but fulfilling more roles than just damage dealer with higher survivability and that will be a much more scandalous situation than with the actual GWF.
Any self-proclaimed elite/maxed/whatever player should already know that after certain point, every class can faceroll any t1-t2, which gives a false sense of balance because it doesn't matter when you have a class than can deal 1m and another one 2m when you are hitting a 200k HP critter, it dies at the same speed. Balance comes when the classes can fulfill his role in a dungeon as soon as they meet the requirements. Babbling about how a specific class can solo any of the low lvl dungeons with a maxed character is a complete nonsense. Is it common to solo a 2k dungeon with a 2k character? The fact is that a 4k character that can solo any of these dungeons is exactly the same than a 2k character soloing any of the leveling dungeons. Now, we are starting to get much more 'difficult' dungeons that requires a much higher item level, the classes will be balanced around how they perform in each bracket: below lv 70, 2k, 2.5k and 3.1k+ dungeons. Here is where the devs have to be careful when they start touching a class because they have to adjust everything in a way that doesn't kill the class at any point keeping them relevant during the whole time that a player spend time developing them.
The majority of players that I see trying to play a "DPS GF" aren't good at it, don't pull it off very well, and also fail as tanks and buffers because they are too busy... umm... attempting to DPS.
The achievements of a few players are not representative of the entire class. It's not more fair than judging all GWFs by Lazalia or Lia (though they have previously taught their methods very well so the average GWF player had some excellent templates to build on). But that's just a restatement of the point @rjc9000 already made very well though it fell on deaf ears.
Ugh, now I gotta actually read that monstrous blob of text
@bloodyspamer I take it as the opposite: build a char from 0% up to 100% with feats, powers, encounters, etc, not up from 100% and allocating them as "counters" (on which i agree too) using "Pareto Principle". As someone pointed before: after devs removed our "limits" (hard diminishing returns), we can become anything we want, taking over more than one or two roles. That was a mistake. My point here is, if a class is locked to "striker" plus "tank", in example, the main stats should have some kind of "shoft diminishing returns" while allocating points on them while other ones have "really hard diminishing return", making rising those "secondary" skills not worthy at all from the moment a player choice its "role".
Pareto Principle is when you put 20% efforts and getting 80% result. But it's not what I am after.. I don't want that x class with 20% defensive stats could enter dungeon give middle finger to any boss and beat without putting decent efforts.
I mentioned this 100% splitting example is jut to clarify how most mmorpg games balance classes.. As example if u are sport car= u are fast, but not ment to transport rocks Or as like current popular method compare classes. They pick heavy truck vs tank and try compare them in drag racing.. And think that is valid method...
My proposal is not lock classes out of possibility to invent/create.. Just make some adjustments. If you picked DC you should not be able beat GF or OP in term of tanking.. You can tank as far as you stats allow, but I don't think DC should tank in FBI.
When we create character in game how it all goes?. We pick race, we pick which would best fit our requirement and role. Then we pick class, Then via paragon path we choose which way we want extend our gameplay. The via feats we enchant certain abilities to fit our requirement..
Now as you can see feats are ment to customize your build.
Boons from campaign, and stronghold are ment to moderate your stats,, For example due feats I have lower defensive stats, so via boons I cover this weakness.. Or pick offensive boon to extend my dmg.
Now lets say I picked DC and I am focused on healig.. I can tank in mid tear dungeons due higher stats from mounts/companions/boons and etc.. But naturally if in group is tank which build for tanking, he will do this job better. IF in group is striker, he will deal more dmg, because his build contain enchanted dmg due his feats. So even if our start would be totally same, he would deal more dmg.
So I can tank some dungeons,, but I can't replace tanks in endgame dungeons.. Neither I can replace striker. I can deal dmg but can't outdmg them.
This is how it should be..
now. visiting forum and reading threads like > my glasscanon x class cant face off tank FBI. or my support healer focused tank outdps full dmg build striker..
And most common is like comics which @micky1p00, linked. After loads of crying they get buffs. And thats how all class balance got screwed up.
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Also funny how when Laz says the same thing I said, he get likes. I say it, I get disagrees. Hahahaha....
If you think that post said the exact same thing you've been saying... I don't even know.
My GF is around 3k. If I specced back to full DPS and pugged (I run a hybrid right now), I probably could take top DPS in some groups, but maybe not consistently because sometimes you do get decent pug players. But if I was grouped with strikers who are geared about the same but equal or more skilled than me (not that hard... I'm vaguely competent but no pro), I wouldn't expect to "beat" them, though I don't particularly view paingiver as a competition and I think it's immature.
GF and GWF play are both based on knowing which hits you can eat and which ones you can't, imo, btw, etc. You can't just stand there and QER. (Not at my level, anyhoo.)
"An off tank (aka off-tank or offtank) is a player in a raid or party that concentrates on taking pressure off the main tank, usually by drawing off extra (usually weaker) mobs. Sometimes abbreviated to the acronym OT.
"In 4th edition, the Fighter is listed as a "Defender". His main purpose is to serve as a meatshield and prevent the enemies from getting close to the squishies behind them. Fighters do more single-target damage than any other class in the game that isn't a "Striker" (and in some cases can out-damage strikers, especially if they get a lot of opportunity attacks)"
Ugh, now I gotta actually read that monstrous blob of text
It has punctuation and paragraph breaks. Easy reading!
Yes, and it is worth reading. I had read the first 4ish paragraphs, but started scrolling and freaked out when the text didn't end. My attention span can only withstand so much text
Comments
image u have 100%. So how u split values? Well if u are striker it's obviously u put 60%/70% on offensive stats. Some perhaps even 90%. So u could deal biggest dmg and yet survive fights..
As tanker it's opposite. U putting 60%/70 in some cases 90% on defensive stats to make sure u can hold hits well, while party deal dmg.
Now if u making offtank and dps in same time. Then naturally its become 50%/50% . Thats mean good for solo play. Yet, not strongest dmg output, not strongest tank.
Here in neverwinter GF and GWF is this 50%/50% scenario, but works as it would be 80% offensive + 80% defensive. By logic it should not be like that.
So I proposed features/feats which would just extend their builds capability.
If u go strikers path. you extend dmg. yet you give up some tankines..
IT;s not like u would not be able do it anymore. U could, but you will doing it way harder, because your stats will be adjusted in fight in favor for dmg boost.
As tanker build. you will lose part of dmg output. But extend your primary role tanking. U still gona be able hit, but dmg will not exceed full strikers build.
In other words, if u decide go strikers path, then 70% of you stats goes for dmg dealing. While 30% remain for survivability.
And with 30% tanking, well I think only skilled players will be able do it.
And if u tanker, your dmg will be adjusted in favor for tanking, so its like 70% for tanking, 30% for dmg.
Now these values are just example. Because even if we decide to use this idea.. I prefer to see how it work in action, and then decide possible values. To make sure it will not break class, neither overbuff. (which is common in NWO )
Now if u read my last 2 posts, which u didn't. U would notice, that I mentioend GF's too. Also I wrote that this idea could fit GF's in same way as GWF.
And now why I am now focused on GWF?
Well this whole idea and these feats will rebalance builds within GWF class, to more precise destro and Sentinel.
Sentinell tank = gain even extra defensive stats, but lose some offensive stats.
Destro gain more dmg, but lose some defensive stats.
Since destro stay as full dmg and will get defensive stats adjusted= he will be consider as other striker classes, furry SW,
TR, HR, CW.
And since party usually contain supporter = no big problems. And I am sure that skilled players would be fine..
As for hot headed keyboard smasher.. Well, probably they will not be able play carelessly anymore.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
GWf Forum community wants unreal things : And I say forum community cause they are dozens of competitive GWFs out there that never write in the forums or ask for nerfs to other classes.But ,most,of forum GWf players are of certain breed,which you can admire in the posts above.
" They have known since Mod 6 that Instigator and Sentinel are not viable and that IV is close to useless. They could throw us a bone and change a few feats to make them at least somewhat viable. CW has not seen anything but nerfs since what, Mod 4? They need a bone too. "
None of them ever made an Instigator or a Sent.Cause they do not care to be off tanks they want to be DPS.
All this talk about Sent is cheap tank ,Sent as an off tank is fine ,just none cares for him cause they do not want to play off tank and contribute to the team.What they want is to sprint ahead and be top paingiver ,while to have no need for the tank to come close-hence that's why they ask for defense buffs.
As for the mention of the CW class in the end,is the pitiful,yeah that is the word,to attract support ,to bow and beg support from the second most influential and noumerous class in the game.Pitifull.
-----------------------------
And why I participate in the thread: I could care less for a casual game that i play 2 hours -max-per day and if one class is overperforming:I don't care honestly.
I do care though when people show hypocricy and vile character.That pisses me off
I dont think in the last two years that any nerf campaign for any class started by non GWfs.
It is always the same.HRs in mod2,initial SWs,stealth att will depleting in Trs,mod4 SoS GFs,mod6 GFs and on ....all nerfed by the GWf crowd.
Forum GWFs are like the bullies in the street..brave in packs but when confronted they hide behind shadow bans ,reports and beg moderators to add ignore button..
example:First they make a vague,overdramatic,hidden nerf begging, statement with out providing any data like:
"BTW, GF class already has tankyness AND DPS together buffer, aggro holder, healer, controller and other roles... This nonsense must end for good. ASAP if devs want to keep alive the game. "
When you fight back their answer is ...
"To others, just ignored @hypervoreian , he is just a liar whom doesn't stand the fact that his class (GF) is over performing and hate so much GWF class for no reason. For this very same reason (his lies), he was shadowbanned from forums for a really long time... and seems like he didn't learn anything from that.
@nitocris83 mind if you ask to someone to add an "ignore" button here on forums? would be really nice to ignore toxic players like the aforementioned one.
Edit: BTW, @darthtzarr , he doesn't know how the game works at all, he just "builds" his char and goes/walks forward. "
Another statement :
"I do not have the answers to class balance, but I know that nerfing GWF to the ground will solve nothing. GWF will just be replaced with GF. Why even invite a low DPS with no survivability and no utility? GWF only has damage to offer"
Why you started the thread then?Why you post and write and attack other classes in dozens of posts and threads if you do not have the answers?
In all these posts you have no proposal for your class not a single one,absoltely zero positive contribution.
What you made adamantantly clear was that....
"You know this game is busted when the class that performs best against GWF in FBI is GF, a tank. SMH. "
Nerf GF is your permanent words ,maybe cause what you really need is ....
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1210609/looking-for-that-superman-gwf-build
"I have been playing GWF since Mod 2. I, for the life of me, cannot find a build like the one described by people that allows us to beat other classes who are 4k item level by 3 times the damage when we are 2-3k. It sure is not Laz or Lia's build, I have tried those. What is the secret? What feats or powers am I missing? "
Are you for real?
Fighter's recovery?
I couldn't care less if you nerf it or not.I have to use it 2-3 years.
Second DPS in the game? Only in yout imagination.
But you started this thread?
What are your proposals for the GWf class?name one.You want the GWF balance time to come.And then?
Any proposal?
i could tell you a few:
Remove the TRush counting, shorten the IBS animation,take away the buff from Hidden Daggers and instead buff the other encounters.
etc etc...
@tom#6998 and any other onlookers, I got a [Greater Box of Popcorn], would you like some?Uh... sorry to nitpick, but what's RDI stand for?Because I've never seen RDI as an acronym for the GF's shield's 80% damage mitigation.
High risk high reward playstyle.
Other videogames can balance a character's extremely good properties around knowledge, skill, or timing. For example, Dr. Doom in Ultimate Marvel Versus Capcom 3 has great infinite combos, decently good health, and great synergy with teams, but requires a player know how to make use out of the game in order to make the most out of Doom. Any fool off the street can't pull off consistent TAC Infinites with Doom, because it requires practice and knowledge.
Likewise with the Conqueror: it is a high risk high reward option. It is not easy to play and definetly isn't easy to gear either. And it also requires you to take a risk.
If you're going to say that a Conqueror GF has their shield which protects them better than the GWF, then yes, it's true. But if you sit behind your shield all day, you don't deal much DPS (and good luck shielding the random red circles during the FBI hill climb, I tried it with 180k HP, 95% DR, and 40% EF Resist, and I still dropped dead. Try that on a squisher GF). And if you attempt to facetank some abilities without using your shield (ex: Drufti IBS, Storvald IBS, Stovald Duumverate, Dragon Turtle Steam Blast/Hullshredder), you're going to have a bad time.
If you're going to make the argument that you only need to block certain attacks, then yes, that's true, but it's also balanced. This is connected to the core tennet of the GF: planning and thinking. You need to be able to know and recognize these attacks in order to know when/how to shield them, which is connected to the skill element of the GF.
If you're going to make the argument that GFs can go full offense and not commit to defense, that's not true. Gearing your GF requires you to make a choice in how you gear it. Kalephi, for example, runs his (her? not sure) GF with a Fire Archon + double offense slot rings. Kalephi has to make a sacrifice in defense to augment his (her?) GF's offense.
If I use double offense slot rings in my GF, I need to sacrifice the defensive slots on my GF. If I use Shield Talent or Guarded Assault in place of Shield Warrior's Wrath or Steel Blitz, I sacrifice some of my offense for defense. If I use Knight's Challenge to double my damage, I also take double damage from boss attacks. Which means, I block and lose my Wrathful Warrior bonus within the blink of an eye, or I don't guard any hits and hit the dirt. If I deactivate Knight's Challenge, I lose half of my damage output, and if I don't, well, I hit the dirt. I can partially mitigate it by picking other defensive options (insignia bonuses, lifesteal boons, etc.), but I have to make less mistakes than a Protector or Tactician counterpart.
If you're going to make the argument that the Conqueror has offensive capabilities as well as the GWF, that's not true. The Conqueror GF needs to get hit to activate their damage bonuses, but if . In addition, the Conqueror GF lacks any natrual Crit chance or feats which boost power at the same time at survivability (us GFs don't get Steely Defense). The GWF, meanwhile, can activate both Destroyer and Destroyer's Purpose from attacking things.
And here's some questions I'll ask you:
Have you played a low-item level DPS-tank GF? Have you even played a high itemlevel DPS GF? Have you analyzed how the DPS tank fights? Have you tried to balance both your tanking duties, buffing your team, and dealing maximum damage all at the same time?
Try it. Try competing for top paingiver in FBI/Svardborg while defending yourself and team, in addition to buffing your team as well as a dedicated buffing GF. I gurantee you, it's not easy to do all of those roles well, and there's only one GF in the community that deal deal top-tier damage, defend both himself and teammates like a pro, and buff as well as dedicated buffers.
Don't pull the "can tank + DPS low-tier dungeons" card on me. With enough gear, you can do this with every class. GWF has Lazalia who did it, CW has Freedom and Sharpedge (I think Syndra too, but I don't watch livestreams), and even Michela herself even solo'd Epic Gray Wolf a while back. With enough gear and efforts, any class can DPS/tank Tier1s/Tier2s.
And don't give me that bull that "but I've seen videos, it's proof enough". I can watch videos of Fernuu playing SW and claim its overpowered in DPS, but I have no substantial proof of the class. I can watch videos of Sume playing HR, but I lack any proof because I don't understand how a HR fights. I can watch videos of WickedDuck or Prokiller playing GWF, but that doesn't mean I can falsely claim GWF is overpowered without owning and playing a GWF in endgame content (and before you start asking if I play a GWF, yes, I own a GWF, I understand the issues with the GWF at the moment). Look, I'm not here to pick a fight, nor make personal enemies. Life is too short, and we all have enough problems in our daily lives (which is why we all come here, right?). If I came off as a little rude, I'm sorry.
But, I wanted to make a point to you, and everyone else here: please, don't make a claim unless you have substantial proof and understanding backing your theory.
Defiant, have you wondered why most of the GF community is unhappy with you?
Did you provide any statistical and playstyle proof, such as providing the numerical feats and playstyle articulation, when you popped into certain threads? I can look at the posts, but I see no numbers or % in your arguments or talk & understanding about playstyle, which leads to the GF community labeling you as someone who should be disregarded for not knowing anything about the GF. For claiming all GFs are broken, have you tried to play a Protector or Tactician GF as a DPS character which competes with Thaum CWs or Fury SWs? I gurantee you'll get laughed at for trying.
Your issue is not the entire argument (you have some fair points), but the way you present your argument provides little proof of your understanding of the GF class, which is why much of the GF community isn't happy with you. Try articulating your arguments with more arguements which present your understanding, and maybe others will direct less vitriol to your thoughts.
GWF haters, this goes double for you as well. We can all make GWF Flowchart jokes, but have you guys actually tried to play a sucessful GWF outside of the Destroyer? Good luck trying that in endgame (if you can solotank FBI as a Sentinel with a Healadin, then I demand proof). Have you guys tried anything outside the usual "Destroyer/Wrathful/IBS/Daggers/Focused Destroyer/Destroyer's Purpose high crit" setup? Good luck, you'll get outdamaged by other DPSers with more versatile setups. Can you count the number of times that teams were dying to have a Instigator "buffer" GWF? Yeah, me neither.
People may not see each other eye to eye, but is it possible that we can ... I don't know, get along? Or, at least, give each other charitable reads and at least try to see the understanding behind the argument?
And that part in italics is excessively cruel, I don't think *everyone* sees you, or should see you as that. It creates a cycle of revenge that never stops, and we need less mortal enemies and more openness to others' ideas.
Label me as the idealistic kid all you want. But I see no point in petty bickering, if there's more to be gained from cooperation.
At the moment I don't know any gfs who sacrifice all defense and go offense BUT (and here is the big but) if you were to put your faith in the DC...
There is a lot of wasted DR that DCs give you that could actually see itself being useful if you were willing to trust them. It isn't quite the major sacrifice you think it is.
The core of my argument is, you can solo T1s and T2s in a full dps gf spec without anything invested into defense and for T3s, you kind of want to run them with a good group (and with a good dc) anyhow.
So with loadouts, will you make a full dps spec plz? (yeah ik ik, me asking you this is REALLY getting old. :P)
So why don't we add CW'S Crown controlling capabilities, DC's healing capabilities, TR"s MI stealth mechanic. Would that make OK ??? Because seems u just want boil all possible roles in one class. And this is far from game and class balancing.. All u wan is to have >> The One<< class.
OR perhaps u forgot what GWF is in first place? should I remind u?(sarcasm)
Next, did u know that offtanking is not full tanking? . It's seems nop.
So read next lines if u want to understand what is offtanking..
It's when >>>any class<< player have high defensive stats, and due that can face group of enemies without tank's help.
. Usually offtanks in mmorpg classes don't have any agression/threat generating capabilties at all. And it's role is just run in front and receive incoming hits from aggressive monsters and make sure the party who run behind u would't not get hits.
However because offtank don't have threat/aggro generation, it's require other type of gameplay.. CC or debuffs elements is most common in such runs..
And as example,Time to time I go in pub queue for mid tear dungeons. To help new players complete dungeons.
And due my stats, I offtank there, get most hits from monsters and bosses, and all is jut to make sure, that team would not die.
So offtanking is not full tanking.. And only build which would allow GWF tank is Sentinel. Not destro, not Instigator, just sentinel.
Next' U complain that u guys don't have dodge... but unlike other classes u wearing heavy armor... Also your dash give u some DR increase while it's active.
Sw received current dodge mechanic with immunity(1s) due certain reasons..
1) SW don't wear heavy armor
2) it's not close range class.
Now, GWF is heavy armor wearing class? Yes
Do it's close range class = yes. Your proclaimed dodge is mostly is not dodge, but dash toward enemies in fight.
Now imagine pvp, and we give GWF same dodge mechanic as SW have now.
Do u think SW would have lot of chance to fight? Whats about CW? HR?
You look to all things from GWF view point only. But seems u don't undestand that this game is not for GWF only.
Also I can bet from 2000 euro, that you have all your boons, gear, mounts, insignias set up to get extra dmg increase.. And you haven't pick any defensive boon at all.
Yet complaining how poor your tanking is.
Perhaps time to pick some of them, u would be surprised how much tanking u can increase with boons..
As for temp HP pool, temp HP don't give extra Defensive stat increase. It's just give you small time frame to restore HP, via HP potions, via Healer, via Companion healer, via life steal. Or even get in distance from enemy.
But one thing is clear. If u have poor defensive stats,, so even trillion temp HP would not save you. One hit and u dead.
Temporal HP is not best tool to keep GlassCannon alive..
If u want extra survivability, OK, then we can make solution, but give me break, u should stop thinking about GWF only.. Or claiming how in bad situation this class is.
I have GWF's in friend list who doing endgame content. And I always ask them due their experience, what changes could make GWF OK, yet avoid making them overpowered.
And mostly I prefer talking with guys who have more than 1 character. The one who have either SW, GF, GWF HR CW. Even DC.
So this guy will also write solution by counting in possible outcomes and interaction with other classes..
***********************************************************
<blockquote class="UserQuote">
Good point anri. And yeah defiatone there is a reason they want to be buffed. So would u agree buff every other striker by about 50% dmg. And give GWF a dodge. I think most ppl will be happy then
I agree. Some dodging can be implemented. But we also need to keep in mind, this game have pvp too.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
Last time you were asked ,you answered you knew only two.over a year ago.have you progressed from that point?i am just curious?You know 3 now?maybe 4?
" if you were to put your faith in the DC..."
A tank that puts faith to protect its team,into the abilities of another toon,is a fail tank,just my personal opinion.
Most GFs tank CN with out healer now ,your paradigm of GF would require a DC to do that.Warp-time travel to glorious 2015,your proposal seems so.
" It isn't quite the major sacrifice you think it is."
So ,you are saying here that Defiant is correct?I guess old buddies in your nerf company are difficult to forget.
"The core of my argument is, you can solo T1s and T2s in a full dps gf spec without anything invested into defense and for T3s, you kind of want to run them with a good group (and with a good dc) anyhow."
The core of your argument is that you showed up in a troll thread picking sides indirectly ,while you add nothing to conversation.
The core argument is that you soloed CN first as a CW but when devs tried to tone down CW buffs you started posting ACTs.
But you have to mention Gf and soloing.Indirectly amplifying the GWf critique and endorsing them.
But I am not surprised Sharp...I mean you were the person that was defending Lost set ..right?
or that person that said in a GF nerf thread ,that you consider GWfs "balanced"....
C ya
On the subject on pure dps gfs, yeah, Freya is taking a break from NW, which means technically I know none.
For team building purposes, it would be damn well awesome if I knew at the very least 1 pure dps gf, (which is why I am trying to convince anri.)
I don't consider a tank that puts faith in its team a fail tank, I consider it teamwork. True, in a worse team, the tank will fail, but in a good team, that tank will truly shine. With loadouts coming, I foresee great potential for groups where the players are willing to admit that they work better, that their builds work better, if they work together. If they are willing to make sacrifices in their builds, knowing that someone else in a team they are a part of will pick up that sacrifice for them. The willingness to do this, is what will set apart the good groups from the great groups imo.
At this point in the game, class balance doesn't hold much interest to me, I just want to run stuff. To be honest, with maybe the exception of trs, I feel classes are quite well balanced at the moment. Just a random thing you might find funny is if you ask duck he wants GWF to have a survivability nerf to stop gwfs from running ahead in dungeons (he doesn't like that gameplay style.) Does GWF do more damage than other classes? Yes it does. Does it matter that much? Not really, I barely ever see, "lf gwf" for the most part I just see, "lf dps" so no dps classes are getting excluded. (Although I have seen trs getting rejected from some groups in channels rather sadly.)
I am actually not siding with anyone in this thread, so don't paint me as siding with defiantone please. The argument I was making there was more a personal thing between anri and I for quite a while now, where I have been trying to sell him on dps gf. It in no way relates to the balance discussion here.
The achievements of a few players are not representative of the entire class. It's not more fair than judging all GWFs by Lazalia or Lia (though they have previously taught their methods very well so the average GWF player had some excellent templates to build on). But that's just a restatement of the point @rjc9000 already made very well though it fell on deaf ears.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Any self-proclaimed elite/maxed/whatever player should already know that after certain point, every class can faceroll any t1-t2, which gives a false sense of balance because it doesn't matter when you have a class than can deal 1m and another one 2m when you are hitting a 200k HP critter, it dies at the same speed. Balance comes when the classes can fulfill his role in a dungeon as soon as they meet the requirements. Babbling about how a specific class can solo any of the low lvl dungeons with a maxed character is a complete nonsense. Is it common to solo a 2k dungeon with a 2k character? The fact is that a 4k character that can solo any of these dungeons is exactly the same than a 2k character soloing any of the leveling dungeons. Now, we are starting to get much more 'difficult' dungeons that requires a much higher item level, the classes will be balanced around how they perform in each bracket: below lv 70, 2k, 2.5k and 3.1k+ dungeons. Here is where the devs have to be careful when they start touching a class because they have to adjust everything in a way that doesn't kill the class at any point keeping them relevant during the whole time that a player spend time developing them.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
I mentioned this 100% splitting example is jut to clarify how most mmorpg games balance classes..
As example if u are sport car= u are fast, but not ment to transport rocks
Or as like current popular method compare classes. They pick heavy truck vs tank and try compare them in drag racing.. And think that is valid method...
My proposal is not lock classes out of possibility to invent/create.. Just make some adjustments.
If you picked DC you should not be able beat GF or OP in term of tanking.. You can tank as far as you stats allow, but I don't think DC should tank in FBI.
When we create character in game how it all goes?.
We pick race, we pick which would best fit our requirement and role.
Then we pick class,
Then via paragon path we choose which way we want extend our gameplay.
The via feats we enchant certain abilities to fit our requirement..
Now as you can see feats are ment to customize your build.
Boons from campaign, and stronghold are ment to moderate your stats,, For example due feats I have lower defensive stats, so via boons I cover this weakness.. Or pick offensive boon to extend my dmg.
Now lets say I picked DC and I am focused on healig.. I can tank in mid tear dungeons due higher stats from mounts/companions/boons and etc.. But naturally if in group is tank which build for tanking, he will do this job better.
IF in group is striker, he will deal more dmg, because his build contain enchanted dmg due his feats. So even if our start would be totally same, he would deal more dmg.
So I can tank some dungeons,, but I can't replace tanks in endgame dungeons.. Neither I can replace striker. I can deal dmg but can't outdmg them.
This is how it should be..
now. visiting forum and reading threads like > my glasscanon x class cant face off tank FBI. or my support healer focused tank outdps full dmg build striker..
And most common is like comics which @micky1p00, linked. After loads of crying they get buffs. And thats how all class balance got screwed up.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
My GF is around 3k. If I specced back to full DPS and pugged (I run a hybrid right now), I probably could take top DPS in some groups, but maybe not consistently because sometimes you do get decent pug players. But if I was grouped with strikers who are geared about the same but equal or more skilled than me (not that hard... I'm vaguely competent but no pro), I wouldn't expect to "beat" them, though I don't particularly view paingiver as a competition and I think it's immature.
GF and GWF play are both based on knowing which hits you can eat and which ones you can't, imo, btw, etc. You can't just stand there and QER. (Not at my level, anyhoo.) It has punctuation and paragraph breaks. Easy reading!
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Off_tank
"An off tank (aka off-tank or offtank) is a player in a raid or party that concentrates on taking pressure off the main tank, usually by drawing off extra (usually weaker) mobs. Sometimes abbreviated to the acronym OT.
Also known as a secondary tank. "
And what Conq GF is?
according to DnD handbook
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Fighter
"In 4th edition, the Fighter is listed as a "Defender". His main purpose is to serve as a meatshield and prevent the enemies from getting close to the squishies behind them. Fighters do more single-target damage than any other class in the game that isn't a "Striker" (and in some cases can out-damage strikers, especially if they get a lot of opportunity attacks)"
c ya....
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John