I would recommend this game to anyone that is a big fan of Multi-Class. But to any that like to play a set role on a game, well this is not it. When they removed the caps and deminished returns on our skills I knew that any chance at balance and roles was over . We didnt have much of a chance for that in the first place, just with the general design of the classes.It is what it is. If the DPS want to really hit hard stack Crit. and Power .If you want to be more Tanky stack Hit Points and some LS. Good hunting.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
There will always be a class that does the most damage and a class that does the least, it doesn't matter what they do, unless all classes are exactly the same, there will always be a hierarchy. If anyone in this thread actually expects that 1 day the classes will be perfectly balanced, they are fooling themselves.
DCs can solo dungeons if they spec dps, which probably occurs more rarely than the number of SWs speccing tanklock.
GWFs are picked for speedruns since they are the dps that nets the fastest completion time. No real other reason, if you pick another class as primary dps, the run will overall be slower.
I would recommend this game to anyone that is a big fan of Multi-Class. But to any that like to play a set role on a game, well this is not it. When they removed the caps and deminished returns on our skills I knew that any chance at balance and roles was over . We didnt have much of a chance for that in the first place, just with the general design of the classes.It is what it is. If the DPS want to really hit hard stack Crit. and Power .If you want to be more Tanky stack Hit Points and some LS. Good hunting.
You hit the nail in the coffin no such threads would exist because now you simply over stack a stat with bondings to inflate it and game is trivialized and the worst thing is that the dungeon's bosses are inflated to have millions of HP and waiting for smashes.. we are literally hitting an object with different texture
I will admit some bosses have good combat mechanics like druffi while others ( Orcus) is bad I mean for heaven's sake how many of us still want CN's old boss over orcus
I did not try mSP because I am waiting for its loot table change, but from what i heard couple bosses got good mechanics so while they are moving in right direction which is very evident something needs to be done about the current stats curving with bondings because it will trivialize any new content
it is not class balance, it is the bondings and who benefits from it the most
The only classes that seriously need class balances by that i mean give them some life support are SW and TR
Class Nerf requests to GF i won't agree with that because any requests of such things is not for pve aspect but for pvp
Which i don't queue for because of troll premades with Stalwart Lions Combat Ability Spam
Note: ----- In any old threads i would say buff my Paladin with aggro , be on par with GF or do some rework to its bulwark but i never requested a class nerf to GF or any class because just like I value my class and the Build i have spent time & money investing into it
I don't like seeing others having their classes messed over with
Aside from that other classes are optimal by 85%
I main a CW and Paladin Tank so i have no favoring what so ever to say buff and nerf a class
all signs point to GF being the top damage dealer. Or, am I imagining things? I am not sure since things are so subjective. Maybe the GF is the weakest class and the other strikers are just bad players
I think you are imagining things. Yes, some content a GF can probably take top paingiver. That doesn't automatically make GF "top damage dealer". GFs can forcibly steal DPS from allies by using high movement speed to leave the party behind and attempt to kill mobs before they enter the room. Top DPS should be defined by who can make a run end the fastest, not by the paingiver chart.
Why? Because almost every thread on PVE in this forum derails or morphs into a nerf GWF thread. There is true hatred for GWF, they have to appease the mob. I see no other way to quiet them. Also, you have speedrunners promoting GWF as a god class. That does not help. GWF temp HP got nerfed due to soloing videos and the outrage over them, no other reason.
I think the deity level class in those videos would be the class that they have two of... just saying. Take those two out and lets see how much damage god gwf does
GWF forum community spreads not accurate info.Since 50% of the server are GWFs ,none checks that info.Over time that info gets accepted as fact,while in reality,it is a fake reality.Examples: ..........
GWFs in the forums when people ask for class balance against GWf and reducing of its damage output:
Counter arguments:
" we don't have utility!"...False Battle fury,double marks.(Which stack not like GFs ET that does not)
"We dont have defense!!! "..False Extra DR when unstoppable and since Mod6 release you have in your all 3 trees. Not only that extra DR while sprint.
Daring Shout encounter, Countless scars feat free 15% dr ,Defiance feat with slam, basically a Sent can reach DR cap(sometimes) just by feats and encounters and 0 investment in DR. Bravery for deflect.
"We dont have damage!"..False Nothing to say here TOP DPS class in the game since mod6.For anyone that wants to say counter wise ,look at a very good GWF that does Wicked damage and make all other DPS to look like tiny Ducks.
"We dont have control!!!"..False... Let me count: Slam,takedown,roar,flourish ,come and get it,savage advance,grand fissure, all these encounters and dailies.With Slam being an 8 sec cc daily ...IStreangth,Not so fast,avalanche etc etc... Feats: flanking manoevers no icd,2 secs duration...
"GWF shines ok,but needs investment"..False.. While the rest we go FBI in our rank5s.... Free stats for GWF class: Steely defense 20% power of your defense,weapon master and master at arms 7,5% crit,10% deflect,5 % Dr... WMaster feature alone 7,5 % crit free,disciple of war feat 25% power out of your arm pen and rec stat ... etc etc...free stats everywhere.
---------------------------
Bottom line: GWF forum community knows its class is overperforming.So it uses distraction in some ways and defends itself in another:
First creates threads in which it complaints about its class not have distict roles, or that not all its trees are performing well. The goal is to make a false image of the GWf class that is not overperforming.So when class balance comes to check the number of nerfs .
Second way: It chooses a class that looks like GWF and plays like it ,and focus on it ,claiming that it is overperforming:So to divert attention from GWF to the other.Class that will be picked must not be strong in numbers so it cannot fight back info war and check the false data. GF class fits the bill perfectly.It is no coisidense that for nearly 9 mods ,since mod2 when GWF community feels threatened thay will target GF class.
examples just from this page
GWF Forumer 1 3369 posts : "BTW, GF class already has tankyness AND DPS together buffer, aggro holder, healer, controller and other roles... This nonsense must end for good. "
GWF Forumer 2 5545 posts "You know this game is busted when the class that performs best against GWF in FBI is GF, a tank. SMH. "
Third way: they comfuse the reader to what exactly they want: Sometimes they compare GWF class to defender classes (GF) and claim GWF does not have enough defense (false) so is somehow ok to have OP offense.Few pages down in most of the time in same threads compare GWF to striker classes and ask for more defense or more offense. It is sometimes amusing.For the same people GWF turns from primary striker to an off tank in just 2-3 posts.
And the fourth way: GWf forum community flag against any post and try to shadow ban anyone who speaks "against" (in their minds) the GWf class. This somehow reflects its poor argument range they have ,since they cannot confront these persons with arguments....
Daring Shout encounter, Countless scars feat free 15% dr ,Defiance feat with slam, basically a Sent can reach DR cap(sometimes) just by feats and encounters and 0 investment in DR. Bravery for deflect.
Cool, so GWF can lose all their DPS to survive a little bit better than a normal squishy class. I love this one.
"We dont have damage!"..False Nothing to say here TOP DPS class in the game since mod6.For anyone that wants to say counter wise ,look at a very good GWF that does Wicked damage and make all other DPS to look like tiny Ducks.
Okay, whoever is arguing that GWF doesn't have any damage is a moron... can't argue that one.
"We dont have control!!!"..False... Let me count: Slam,takedown,roar,flourish ,come and get it,savage advance,grand fissure, all these encounters and dailies.With Slam being an 8 sec cc daily ...IStreangth,Not so fast,avalanche etc etc... Feats: flanking manoevers no icd,2 secs duration...
Look! More useless non-dps powers. Also, when was CC last relevant? I can't even remember.
"GWF shines ok,but needs investment"..False.. Yeah? While the rest we go FBI in our rank5s.... Free stats for GWF class: Steely defense 20% power of your defense,weapon master and master at arms 7,5% crit,10% deflect,5 % Dr... WMaster feature alone 7,5 % crit free,disciple of war feat 25% power out of your arm pen and rec stat ... etc etc...free stats everywhere.
I would love to see your GWF in rank 5s, no weapon enchant, and no bondings take top paingiver in FBI. I love getting carried through content by "overpowered" stuff that I don't know about yet.
A GWF damage in FBI in those speed runs is only because of the Lightning Enchant which procs of of everything and Steel Blitz class feat which procs lightning again (on a WMS). Now add to that 4 Con-artists (40% debuff) + Dancing Shield (20% debuff) + Transc Frost (10% debuff) + Transc Plague Fire (9% debuff). All uncapped so that means 79% on top of the 200% effectivness. Then the Power shares from DC's and OP, plus ITF. Yeeeaaah, the GWF needs a nerf, it couldn't possible be these things.
A GWF damage in FBI in those speed runs is only because of the Lightning Enchant which procs of of everything and Steel Blitz class feat which procs lightning again (on a WMS). Now add to that 4 Con-artists (40% debuff) + Dancing Shield (20% debuff) + Transc Frost (10% debuff) + Transc Plague Fire (9% debuff). All uncapped so that means 79% on top of the 200% effectivness. Then the Power shares from DC's and OP, plus ITF. Yeeeaaah, the GWF needs a nerf, it couldn't possible be these things.
I think it's more of a question on why we don't see these speed runs done with other DPS classes. It's obvious why the damage is high. What's not obvious is why all of the runs are GWF. We don't get to see them testing back and forth finding the fastest, we just get to see it after they found out which is the fastest DPS class to run with (or at least I haven't, I haven't looked too hard either).
"Don't have much utility would be more accurate. Neither of those is big enough to count for much."
You are on par with Tr a primary striker which has to sacrifice an encounter for it (Wicked reminder) while some of your buffs come from att wills (Threatening rush)
"Extra DR while sprinting compared to full immunity while dodging... gunna have to say that's called less defense."
Wait...you are saying you want total immunity while sprinting?That would be broken.Also I mentioned unstoppable aswell.Sprint is extra, it should not been here the dr at sprint at all.
"Cool, so GWF can lose all their DPS to survive a little bit better than a normal squishy class. I love this one."
Not a little bit better.At biS level GWf is unkillable except when staying in red.Which happens quite often.But this is not the fault of the other classes.
"Okay, whoever is arguing that GWF doesn't have any damage is a moron... can't argue that one."
Agree
"Look! More useless non-dps powers. Also, when was CC last relevant? I can't even remember."
You missed my point and responded to an argument that does not exist.I mentioned that ,as a reference to what other GWfs mention.That they want CC.And you have CC.But you dont use it cause you want DPS. And your reponse confirms what i said.You only want DPS ,and you use the imaginary lack of CC as a diversion. There is no other class that has such a long CC power in game from GWF slam,not other clas that has so many CC powers.
"I would love to see your GWF in rank 5s, no weapon enchant, and no bondings take top paingiver in FBI. I love getting carried through content by "overpowered" stuff that I don't know about yet. "
This is what you understood from my sentence?really? I said you use the argument that "GWFs need gear to perform and i said that the rest of their classes need gear aswell.So your argument is null.
"Woah! You weren't kidding!"
Poor GWFs.All want to nerf you , while GWfs never want to other classes. By the way i own a GWF and I play him.I just want balance as this thread implies
" We don't get to see them testing back and forth finding the fastest"
Actually the opposite:99% of the GWf builds are cookie cutter laz/rinat builds. You dont need to test anything cause damage comes natutally.compare this to TRs for example that try to explore every possible way to increase their DPS and go either Sabo or Exec,or HRs that might go trapper or combat
But you [. . .] GWF community want both, tankines and insane dmg output.
False as nine hells and beyond. What we do want is a way to survive the "first wave" only. After that, if a heal source is not near, the GWF class should die for good in a balanced game as happened back in mod2. Nowadays, a GWF can solo a dungeon which is plain lame and stupid for a simple reason: A single class fills 5 holes: buffer, "controller", Damage dealer, "tank" and healer. This must end for good for ALL classes, not just for GWF class.
BTW, GF class already has tankyness AND DPS together buffer, aggro holder, healer, controller and other roles... This nonsense must end for good. ASAP if devs want to keep alive the game.
Seems you did't read my proposal..
Well I will write here for u..
The idea simple,, If u pick offensive build, either GF or GWF, You give up part of defensive stats.. For example, lets say u are MS destro GWF,.. When u are in non combat = no changes, stats are normal.. Once GWF hit enemy you tiggering berserker effect which you lose 10%/15% defensive stats*(deflect/defence) and lost values are added to offensive stats, which are Power, crit, arp. Once fight ends = berserker effect disappear.
Now since SM destro focused on dmg dealing =, defensive stats are not as high as full tanking focused build, so it's not like gona be extreme dmg increase, yet it would still be noticeable.
At first you guys would say,, GWF become weak.. But hold your horses. Need to remind that usually party contain supporter or healer.. Not mentioned that Dmg increase give benefits to life steal.... So survivability actually is not lost here as much as you think...
Skilled player handle this matter without any problems, while hot headed suckers(keyboard smashers) die. 0000000000000000000000
Defensive feat for sentinel - Parry Stance = on receiving hit GWF lose 10%~15% of offensive stats, Power, crit, arp, but lost values added to defensive stats. Defence/deflect,, Possible add HP regeneration or even small life steal boost to compensate possible life stealing rate dropping.
So, as you can see tanking become better if u want tank. Yet it split 2 builds from same class in 2 roles. Now in process I think that these feats should be apply to GF class too.
But what I hear so far is that, you all wanting both stuffs, tank + high dps in one pack.
In order balance game, even balance pvp, firstly need balance builds within classes, and even before that, bring them back to their initial concept. What they where ment to do in first place..
Now I can see, high dps + offtanking class (GWF/GF) and any solution to balance lead to same effect..
And usually sounds like GWF is in so bad position that require at least x3, no x6 times stat boost in order make it viable. While some GF guys will claim that their class need extreme buffing in order make it viable. (sarcasm).
If u combine high dps + tankiness = middle finger to any attempts balance game.. Non of my known game have proper balance when are class which capable to take all roles within group . Eventually game become focused on that class and either class got nerf or game dies.
Anyways,, simple question to you all guys (GF/GWF) >> Do u want balance or not? <<
When u guys decide that want balance, then write here.. But I am sure non of u want that..
Soloing dungeons has nothing to do with class balance, it is about powercreep and overgearing a dungeon. Eventually nearly all content can and will be done solo by all classes. You know this game is busted when the class that performs best against GWF in FBI is GF, a tank. SMH.
What if that tank is full dps build? Not ment for tanking. ?
I have met GF's which are build for dmg only. They could not tank at all. Because build where not ment for it.. In other words, u been with Striker who beat your striker.
As game. Well this is problem.. Usually end game content is hard. Even casual players focused mmorpg games. End game is used be challenge. But you guys complaining about GWF survivability by doing speedrun.
It's like comparing which heavy truck can lift more by testing them in drag racing..
Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
That is funny. Sprint and Unstoppable have no damage immunity frames, now you want Sprint to not have DR either. Wow.
Hi co forumer. What i want is the reversal of the mod6 changes ,so to clarify: i want sprint to lose its extra DR completely and Destro to gain Unstop determination while doing only damage and not taking it. This was the way for 6 mods and it was working well.
Okay. I want GF to lose the extra weapon damage it gained with mod 6 and for Conqueror and GF as a whole to lose all of the bonus damage it has received since then. It was working well before Mod 6. Now GF is overpowered and breaks the game.
GF did not gain extra weapon damage as many GWfs claimed .It was damage that any class gained prior to mod6 release Trs.HRs,CWs you name it.Just compare your GWF CN weapon prior to mod6 ,and the first artifact GWf weapon after.50% increase.So if GF would lose that 50% increase GWf would lose it aswell.
But why to go mod6 to find differences(imaginary) between classes.Mod10/11 GWf weapons have higher base damage than any other class.This is a recent disparity between classes and needs to go.
Thanks for reminding me ,I put this aswell to my suggestions:
"Mod10/11 GWF weapons to have base damage equal to other classes" mainly GF/Op ones.2216...
You have 2714 base weapon damage while other classes have lower...too much difference...
thanks for reminding me
ah and to add something:
"It was working well before Mod 6." it really was working well with Gf.Primary to mod3 exactly Conq was having double power at max of his stamina. when his stamina was full he would have x2 of his power,but as he was blocking he would lose that advantage. If the reverse you ask would go it would be a huge boast to Gf damage output.thanks for this aswell
To be clear, I do not know what needs nerfed/buffed. I just think most of your arguments are silly. Let me clarify better, since it's obvious you didn't understand anything I just said.
About GWF not having utility, they cannot help their party by any meaningful margin. They have a couple small capped debuffs (maybe), that aren't used in any the speed runs. They have Battle Fury, which gives a small portion of the buff to allies, but since it is buffing At-wills, most other classes do not benefit from it like the GWF does. You would need something like another GWF or a Combat HR in the party for that buff to have any party utility worth mentioning. To do this, you waste a buff slot in your party... can we count the GWF as a buff slot?!?!?! I'm gunna have to guess: no.
A GWF has defense, obviously... all classes do. All I have to do is equip the defense guild boon and suddenly I have defense tadah. This cannot be what you mean by "defense". You have to mean "survivability". So maybe GWF has some decent DR while in unstoppable (I don't know the numbers for it), and obviously they have DR while sprinting. Lets compare this versus other squishy DPS classes. CW Shift is full damage immunity. So..... now comparing these with each other, does this mean that CW is tankier than GWF? Tankiness isn't defined by "He has ??% DR when doing blah blah blah, therefore he is tanky" that's not how survivability works. For crying out loud, my DC can take a hammer to the face from a giant and not die, so why is this even surprising? BiS GWFs do not use these garbage feats and powers to become survivable. They use stuff that is available to every class.
If someone is arguing that GWF is allowed to do more damage simply because they don't have CC, they are not relevant, just like CC. If CC were important, GWF CC is fairly sad. Slam is a long duration soft CC. Soft CC is not all that useful even if it does work. As for Hard CC options GWF CC is very situational or short in comparison to other classes. If CC were needed for content, I highly doubt anyone would pick a GWF to do it. Quantity does not beat quality.
If you used more words to describe your argument, I could probably respond to it better. Yes, every class needs investment equally to become relevant... oh wait yeah nope. Why do most DCs and MoFs you see have lower item levels? Because they require less investment. GWF requires a large investment, since the only thing they can bring to the table is DPS. Everything else they have gets dwarfed by every other class. An HR at low investment can bring Longstrider's Shot and other buffs, Scourge Warlock Pillar of Power (feated), DC exists, GF brings ITF, CW brings MoF and/or Renegade, TR needs life support, and Paladin can bring auras, debuffs, and power share. All other classes have a low cost party helper that can be used to help them reach BiS. GWF can only bring damage. This shouldn't mean they deal 10000000x more damage than everyone else (PS: they don't). The lack of a low cost build path is just an issue that GWFs have that probably should be looked into when GWF gets some positive attention.
"Mod10/11 GWF weapons to have base damage equal to other classes" mainly GF/Op ones.2216...
You have 2714 base weapon damage while other classes have lower...too much difference...
I have to ask, do you actually know how the damage formula works? If so, you do know that GWF powers also have some of the lowest base damage in the game, and that the only reason they are capable of dealing damage is because their weapon damage compensates for it.
It does help them with weapon enchants, since those proc off of weapon damage directly. I don't know the numbers for other classes, but if big numbers from weapon enchants were the only deciding factor in damage, then DC would beat GWF in the weapon damage contest, since Daunting Light procs most weapon enchants at 3x their expected value (so they are proccing enchants as if they had ~5000 weapon damage compared to GWF's ~2700 weapon damage). Comparing damage off of simple "weapon damage is higher" is completely useless.
GWF IBS has a base damage of like 3, while SW Gates of Hell has a base damage of like 9... too much difference
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Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
EDIT - I guess we shall see
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
DCs can solo dungeons if they spec dps, which probably occurs more rarely than the number of SWs speccing tanklock.
GWFs are picked for speedruns since they are the dps that nets the fastest completion time. No real other reason, if you pick another class as primary dps, the run will overall be slower.
I will admit some bosses have good combat mechanics like druffi while others ( Orcus) is bad I mean for heaven's sake how many of us still want CN's old boss over orcus
I did not try mSP because I am waiting for its loot table change, but from what i heard couple bosses got good mechanics so while they are moving in right direction which is very evident something needs to be done about the current stats curving with bondings because it will trivialize any new content
it is not class balance, it is the bondings and who benefits from it the most
The only classes that seriously need class balances by that i mean give them some life support are SW and TR
Class Nerf requests to GF i won't agree with that because any requests of such things is not for pve aspect but for pvp
Which i don't queue for because of troll premades with Stalwart Lions Combat Ability Spam
Note:
-----
In any old threads i would say buff my Paladin with aggro , be on par with GF or do some rework to its bulwark but i never requested a class nerf to GF or any class because just like I value my class and the Build i have spent time & money investing into it
I don't like seeing others having their classes messed over with
Aside from that other classes are optimal by 85%
I main a CW and Paladin Tank so i have no favoring what so ever to say buff and nerf a class
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
GWFs in the forums when people ask for class balance against GWf and reducing of its damage output:
Counter arguments:
" we don't have utility!"...False
Battle fury,double marks.(Which stack not like GFs ET that does not)
"We dont have defense!!! "..False
Extra DR when unstoppable and since Mod6 release you have in your all 3 trees.
Not only that extra DR while sprint.
Daring Shout encounter, Countless scars feat free 15% dr ,Defiance feat with slam, basically a Sent can reach DR cap(sometimes) just by feats and encounters and 0 investment in DR.
Bravery for deflect.
"We dont have damage!"..False
Nothing to say here TOP DPS class in the game since mod6.For anyone that wants to say counter wise ,look at a very good GWF that does Wicked damage and make all other DPS to look like tiny Ducks.
"We dont have control!!!"..False...
Let me count:
Slam,takedown,roar,flourish ,come and get it,savage advance,grand fissure, all these encounters and dailies.With Slam being an 8 sec cc daily ...IStreangth,Not so fast,avalanche etc etc...
Feats: flanking manoevers no icd,2 secs duration...
"GWF shines ok,but needs investment"..False..
While the rest we go FBI in our rank5s....
Free stats for GWF class:
Steely defense 20% power of your defense,weapon master and master at arms 7,5% crit,10% deflect,5 % Dr...
WMaster feature alone 7,5 % crit free,disciple of war feat 25% power out of your arm pen and rec stat ...
etc etc...free stats everywhere.
---------------------------
Bottom line:
GWF forum community knows its class is overperforming.So it uses distraction in some ways and defends itself in another:
First creates threads in which it complaints about its class not have distict roles, or that not all its trees are performing well.
The goal is to make a false image of the GWf class that is not overperforming.So when class balance comes to check the number of nerfs .
Second way:
It chooses a class that looks like GWF and plays like it ,and focus on it ,claiming that it is overperforming:So to divert attention from GWF to the other.Class that will be picked must not be strong in numbers so it cannot fight back info war and check the false data.
GF class fits the bill perfectly.It is no coisidense that for nearly 9 mods ,since mod2 when GWF community feels threatened thay will target GF class.
examples just from this page
GWF Forumer 1 3369 posts : "BTW, GF class already has tankyness AND DPS together buffer, aggro holder, healer, controller and other roles... This nonsense must end for good. "
GWF Forumer 2 5545 posts "You know this game is busted when the class that performs best against GWF in FBI is GF, a tank. SMH. "
Third way:
they comfuse the reader to what exactly they want:
Sometimes they compare GWF class to defender classes (GF) and claim GWF does not have enough defense (false) so is somehow ok to have OP offense.Few pages down in most of the time in same threads compare GWF to striker classes and ask for more defense or more offense.
It is sometimes amusing.For the same people GWF turns from primary striker to an off tank in just 2-3 posts.
And the fourth way:
GWf forum community flag against any post and try to shadow ban anyone who speaks "against" (in their minds) the GWf class.
This somehow reflects its poor argument range they have ,since they cannot confront these persons with arguments....
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
Now add to that 4 Con-artists (40% debuff) + Dancing Shield (20% debuff) + Transc Frost (10% debuff) + Transc Plague Fire (9% debuff). All uncapped so that means 79% on top of the 200% effectivness. Then the Power shares from DC's and OP, plus ITF.
Yeeeaaah, the GWF needs a nerf, it couldn't possible be these things.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
You are on par with Tr a primary striker which has to sacrifice an encounter for it (Wicked reminder) while some of your buffs come from att wills (Threatening rush)
"Extra DR while sprinting compared to full immunity while dodging... gunna have to say that's called less defense."
Wait...you are saying you want total immunity while sprinting?That would be broken.Also I mentioned unstoppable aswell.Sprint is extra, it should not been here the dr at sprint at all.
"Cool, so GWF can lose all their DPS to survive a little bit better than a normal squishy class. I love this one."
Not a little bit better.At biS level GWf is unkillable except when staying in red.Which happens quite often.But this is not the fault of the other classes.
"Okay, whoever is arguing that GWF doesn't have any damage is a moron... can't argue that one."
Agree
"Look! More useless non-dps powers. Also, when was CC last relevant? I can't even remember."
You missed my point and responded to an argument that does not exist.I mentioned that ,as a reference to what other GWfs mention.That they want CC.And you have CC.But you dont use it cause you want DPS.
And your reponse confirms what i said.You only want DPS ,and you use the imaginary lack of CC as a diversion.
There is no other class that has such a long CC power in game from GWF slam,not other clas that has so many CC powers.
"I would love to see your GWF in rank 5s, no weapon enchant, and no bondings take top paingiver in FBI. I love getting carried through content by "overpowered" stuff that I don't know about yet. "
This is what you understood from my sentence?really?
I said you use the argument that "GWFs need gear to perform and i said that the rest of their classes need gear aswell.So your argument is null.
"Woah! You weren't kidding!"
Poor GWFs.All want to nerf you , while GWfs never want to other classes.
By the way i own a GWF and I play him.I just want balance as this thread implies
" We don't get to see them testing back and forth finding the fastest"
Actually the opposite:99% of the GWf builds are cookie cutter laz/rinat builds.
You dont need to test anything cause damage comes natutally.compare this to TRs for example that try to explore every possible way to increase their DPS and go either Sabo or Exec,or HRs that might go trapper or combat
Well I will write here for u..
The idea simple,, If u pick offensive build, either GF or GWF, You give up part of defensive stats..
For example, lets say u are MS destro GWF,.. When u are in non combat = no changes, stats are normal..
Once GWF hit enemy you tiggering berserker effect which you lose 10%/15% defensive stats*(deflect/defence) and lost values are added to offensive stats, which are Power, crit, arp.
Once fight ends = berserker effect disappear.
Now since SM destro focused on dmg dealing =, defensive stats are not as high as full tanking focused build, so it's not like gona be extreme dmg increase, yet it would still be noticeable.
At first you guys would say,, GWF become weak.. But hold your horses. Need to remind that usually party contain supporter or healer.. Not mentioned that Dmg increase give benefits to life steal.... So survivability actually is not lost here as much as you think...
Skilled player handle this matter without any problems, while hot headed suckers(keyboard smashers) die.
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Defensive feat for sentinel - Parry Stance = on receiving hit GWF lose 10%~15% of offensive stats, Power, crit, arp, but lost values added to defensive stats. Defence/deflect,, Possible add HP regeneration or even small life steal boost to compensate possible life stealing rate dropping.
So, as you can see tanking become better if u want tank. Yet it split 2 builds from same class in 2 roles. Now in process I think that these feats should be apply to GF class too.
But what I hear so far is that, you all wanting both stuffs, tank + high dps in one pack.
In order balance game, even balance pvp, firstly need balance builds within classes, and even before that, bring them back to their initial concept. What they where ment to do in first place..
Now I can see, high dps + offtanking class (GWF/GF) and any solution to balance lead to same effect..
And usually sounds like GWF is in so bad position that require at least x3, no x6 times stat boost in order make it viable. While some GF guys will claim that their class need extreme buffing in order make it viable. (sarcasm).
If u combine high dps + tankiness = middle finger to any attempts balance game..
Non of my known game have proper balance when are class which capable to take all roles within group . Eventually game become focused on that class and either class got nerf or game dies.
Anyways,, simple question to you all guys (GF/GWF)
>> Do u want balance or not? <<
When u guys decide that want balance, then write here.. But I am sure non of u want that..
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Soloing dungeons has nothing to do with class balance, it is about powercreep and overgearing a dungeon. Eventually nearly all content can and will be done solo by all classes. You know this game is busted when the class that performs best against GWF in FBI is GF, a tank. SMH.
What if that tank is full dps build? Not ment for tanking. ?
I have met GF's which are build for dmg only. They could not tank at all. Because build where not ment for it..
In other words, u been with Striker who beat your striker.
As game. Well this is problem.. Usually end game content is hard. Even casual players focused mmorpg games.
End game is used be challenge. But you guys complaining about GWF survivability by doing speedrun.
It's like comparing which heavy truck can lift more by testing them in drag racing..
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
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What i want is the reversal of the mod6 changes ,so to clarify:
i want sprint to lose its extra DR completely and Destro to gain Unstop determination while doing only damage and not taking it.
This was the way for 6 mods and it was working well.
But why to go mod6 to find differences(imaginary) between classes.Mod10/11 GWf weapons have higher base damage than any other class.This is a recent disparity between classes and needs to go.
Thanks for reminding me ,I put this aswell to my suggestions:
"Mod10/11 GWF weapons to have base damage equal to other classes" mainly GF/Op ones.2216...
You have 2714 base weapon damage while other classes have lower...too much difference...
thanks for reminding me
ah and to add something:
"It was working well before Mod 6."
it really was working well with Gf.Primary to mod3 exactly Conq was having double power at max of his stamina.
when his stamina was full he would have x2 of his power,but as he was blocking he would lose that advantage.
If the reverse you ask would go it would be a huge boast to Gf damage output.thanks for this aswell
About GWF not having utility, they cannot help their party by any meaningful margin. They have a couple small capped debuffs (maybe), that aren't used in any the speed runs. They have Battle Fury, which gives a small portion of the buff to allies, but since it is buffing At-wills, most other classes do not benefit from it like the GWF does. You would need something like another GWF or a Combat HR in the party for that buff to have any party utility worth mentioning. To do this, you waste a buff slot in your party... can we count the GWF as a buff slot?!?!?! I'm gunna have to guess: no.
A GWF has defense, obviously... all classes do. All I have to do is equip the defense guild boon and suddenly I have defense tadah. This cannot be what you mean by "defense". You have to mean "survivability". So maybe GWF has some decent DR while in unstoppable (I don't know the numbers for it), and obviously they have DR while sprinting. Lets compare this versus other squishy DPS classes. CW Shift is full damage immunity. So..... now comparing these with each other, does this mean that CW is tankier than GWF? Tankiness isn't defined by "He has ??% DR when doing blah blah blah, therefore he is tanky" that's not how survivability works. For crying out loud, my DC can take a hammer to the face from a giant and not die, so why is this even surprising? BiS GWFs do not use these garbage feats and powers to become survivable. They use stuff that is available to every class.
If someone is arguing that GWF is allowed to do more damage simply because they don't have CC, they are not relevant, just like CC. If CC were important, GWF CC is fairly sad. Slam is a long duration soft CC. Soft CC is not all that useful even if it does work. As for Hard CC options GWF CC is very situational or short in comparison to other classes. If CC were needed for content, I highly doubt anyone would pick a GWF to do it. Quantity does not beat quality.
If you used more words to describe your argument, I could probably respond to it better. Yes, every class needs investment equally to become relevant... oh wait yeah nope. Why do most DCs and MoFs you see have lower item levels? Because they require less investment. GWF requires a large investment, since the only thing they can bring to the table is DPS. Everything else they have gets dwarfed by every other class. An HR at low investment can bring Longstrider's Shot and other buffs, Scourge Warlock Pillar of Power (feated), DC exists, GF brings ITF, CW brings MoF and/or Renegade, TR needs life support, and Paladin can bring auras, debuffs, and power share. All other classes have a low cost party helper that can be used to help them reach BiS. GWF can only bring damage. This shouldn't mean they deal 10000000x more damage than everyone else (PS: they don't). The lack of a low cost build path is just an issue that GWFs have that probably should be looked into when GWF gets some positive attention.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
It does help them with weapon enchants, since those proc off of weapon damage directly. I don't know the numbers for other classes, but if big numbers from weapon enchants were the only deciding factor in damage, then DC would beat GWF in the weapon damage contest, since Daunting Light procs most weapon enchants at 3x their expected value (so they are proccing enchants as if they had ~5000 weapon damage compared to GWF's ~2700 weapon damage). Comparing damage off of simple "weapon damage is higher" is completely useless.
GWF IBS has a base damage of like 3, while SW Gates of Hell has a base damage of like 9... too much difference
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John