All classes can solo but you see more videos with gwf soloing than any other class. The point is that out of the primary dps classes, gwf has the most survivability in pve. Most other classes can take one or two hits but usually no more.
I already know your stance with the gf @defiantone99 and I for the most part agree. I'm not really considering them as a primary dps class.
sure gwfs have a lot of suvivability in pve but in pvp we have the worst survivability... funny how the game switches up on your completely depending if you are pve or pvping lol
PvP is dead though so it's not really relevant.
Completely your opinion and in my opinion why this games player base is dying off slowly. If they only balance for pve they will kill pvp for this game and all the money we put into it. No reason why they can't balance for both.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
What I am saying is that there is nothing left to nerf. Armor Class, when we are a defender? Sprint DR, when we have no dodge and have to eat hits? Unstoppable DR, when it is only 30% and only works in Unstoppable? Temp HP when it is already a small sliver that does not help? You point to me one thing that can be nerfed that will not destroy the class completely as a melee. All of those things impact Sentinel's ability to survive.
If you read my first proposal about making 3 builds. 1)glass canon, 2) balanced, 3)offtank.
For Glasscanon, As I wrote in my previous post. They should get berserk like effect.. In fight increase their offensive stats by x percentage,, while in same percentage give up defensive stats.. As example, if GWF is in non combat, no changes. But once it start hitting = offensive stats increase by like 10%, (power, arp, crit). While in exchange lose 10% def, deflect.
For guys who want offtank, no problem. in start of fight, or receiving hits, Gwf lose 10% offensive stats, but lost values are added to it's defensive stats. Def/ deflect.,
Now this is just quick idea.. But as you can see with 2 feats implementing. U can either boost up offensive capabilities or defensive ones with 2 feats.
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
Gwf and gf already share some powers. So I dow see any problems to apply this mechanic for gf too.
Now even if lets say gf/gwf players agree to get these 2 feats. It's bring problem called, values sizes.
And this part is mostly depend on gf and gwf community. They should decide among themselfs 1) how much they willing to give up defensive stats in favor for offensive increase. 2) how much offensive stats they would give up in favor for defensive stats increase.
As example I could suggest that values would be like up to 15% max.. However, I prefer that GF, and GWF players decide among themselfs. So latter would not be complains..
Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
Gwf and gf already share some powers. So I dow see any problems to apply this mechanic for gf too.
Now even if lets say gf/gwf players agree to get these 2 feats. It's bring problem called, values sizes.
And this part is mostly depend on gf and gwf community.
They should decide among themselfs
1) how much they willing to give up defensive stats in favor for offensive increase.
2) how much offensive stats they would give up in favor for defensive stats increase.
As example I could suggest that values would be like up to 15% max.. However, I prefer that GF, and GWF players decide among themselfs. So latter would not be complains..
Personally the way I look at it if I was to use your scenario a gf should do 25% less damage (not including trample the fallen that skill should be only a gwf ability) and be 15% tankier and a GWF should be 15% less tanky and do 25% more damage.
Might have to think about this a little more but for a snap judgement for sake of it thats my opinion at this moment.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
All classes can solo but you see more videos with gwf soloing than any other class. The point is that out of the primary dps classes, gwf has the most survivability in pve. Most other classes can take one or two hits but usually no more.
I already know your stance with the gf @defiantone99 and I for the most part agree. I'm not really considering them as a primary dps class.
sure gwfs have a lot of suvivability in pve but in pvp we have the worst survivability... funny how the game switches up on your completely depending if you are pve or pvping lol
PvP is dead though so it's not really relevant.
Completely your opinion and in my opinion why this games player base is dying off slowly. If they only balance for pve they will kill pvp for this game and all the money we put into it. No reason why they can't balance for both.
They won't balance PvP though. They've stated multiple times it's one of their lowest priorities. So it's dead and it's going to remain dead.
Personally the way I look at it if I was to use your scenario a gf should do 25% less damage (not including trample the fallen that skill should be only a gwf ability) and be 15% tankier and a GWF should be 15% less tanky and do 25% more damage.
Might have to think about this a little more but for a snap judgement for sake of it thats my opinion at this moment.
Somehow I didn't surprised for such stat exchanged.. However, I still do insist that it should be same percentage exchange. 10% gain = 10% lose. It's not buffing, it's not nerfing. This stuff would just reallocate some stats in favor for other ones.
Why I insist that? Well due certain reasons, firstly you give up def/deflect, but gain power, crit, arp. So all alone you get more than u give up. Not mentioned you still have life steal, and HP pool, and even regeneration.
Next, mostly this berserk feat user will stay in group with supporters which cover his weakness with buffs. Thats why I think 20% lose 25% increase could be something more reasonable.. On top we should think about other defensive stats. Now GF have regeneration abilities.. And I prefer that this berserk effect would adjust regeneration effect or even implement DoT effect, which drain HP while user is in fight. It would be as counter regeneration and life steal mechanics...
AS defenese stat boosting with feats. also it should not visual seen exchange. You get more defensive stats, but lose offensive..
Now exchange > 20% offensive lose = 25% defensive stat increase.. Thats mean you give up 20% power, 20% RI, 20% crit. But gain 20% def, 20% deflect, 20% even 20% regeneration increase. However I prefer exclude life steal mechanic.. Because it's depend on dealt dmg.
So you can see, it's not so simple as you think where at first.. Thats why I want that GF and GWF community decide how much they willing to give up in exchange to gain extra values..
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
How many of you commenting here actually main a GF or a GWF?
Well for now I more focusing GwF, but Since defiantone99 mentioned that this idea could fit GF, I though why not apply this idea for GF too. However, values I prefer to be slightly different.. Because GWF primary role is striker, while GF's primary role tank.
Also GF have HP regeneration abilities, while GWF is ability to get temp HP.. Anyways,, I still do prefer some GF and GWF's would come with proper values and also write why they think it would be better in that way.... I am open for other solutions,, but just don't want carelessly buff or carelessly nerf..
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
How many of you commenting here actually main a GF or a GWF?
You do not have to main a GF to see how powerful they are. Just watch some videos. You will see that the GF does more damage than almost every other class. Pretty weird if you ask me. I would love to know if that is WAI. The other strikers and Paladin need buffed right now if it is....
Wait a second, you knew about Tactician/Protector DPS cheese? And you were holding out on me? Why didn't you tell me? It would have made my life a whole lot easier!
This game has always been about random over-buffs or over-nerfs. Do not expect that to change. Assassin's Covenant is in the game, I doubt it would be applied in class feats. They usually do not use player ideas, except nerf requests.
This is one of Neverwinter online traits. When weak class got nerfed even more, while overpowered class get buffed even more..
Also it's not like gona happens that developers would take this idea and use it. Because theres is always some players who will go against any changes.. Some players want more buffs regardless their builds, stats and so one.. Some guys make glasscannon striker and try tank, die and latter ask more buffs.. So instead looking to his builds flaws, he demand more buffing. If he don't get, he demand that other classes would be nerfed.
If you look from developers side, they getting lot of suggestions, buff this, buff that, nerft otherss.. After reading first 100 suggestions you starting ignore all proposed changes... I know that,, I have been in such situation...
Also lets say, we decide to use his idea. Then we need rewrite whole idea properly, with explanation why developers should implement it. Then most crucial part would be, get majority players from these classes agreement. If you have like 10 players who agree for this idea = nothing. You need at least 50 players who would agree on this idea. Then you will get at least some developers attention.
And to get more than 15 players agreement here in neverwinter is already legendary achievement, and get more is mission impossible.
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
This game has always been about random over-buffs or over-nerfs. Do not expect that to change. Assassin's Covenant is in the game, I doubt it would be applied in class feats. They usually do not use player ideas, except nerf requests.
This is one of Neverwinter online traits. When weak class got nerfed even more, while overpowered class get buffed even more..
Also it's not like gona happens that developers would take this idea and use it. Because theres is always some players who will go against any changes.. Some players want more buffs regardless their builds, stats and so one.. Some guys make glasscannon striker and try tank, die and latter ask more buffs.. So instead looking to his builds flaws, he demand more buffing. If he don't get, he demand that other classes would be nerfed.
If you look from developers side, they getting lot of suggestions, buff this, buff that, nerft otherss.. After reading first 100 suggestions you starting ignore all proposed changes... I know that,, I have been in such situation... Also lets say, we decide to use his idea. Then we need rewrite whole idea properly, with explanation why developers should implement it. Then most crucial part would be, get majority players from these classes agreement. If you have like 10 players who agree for this idea = nothing. You need at least 50 players who would agree on this idea. Then you will get at least some developers attention.
And to get more than 15 players agreement here in neverwinter is already legendary achievement, and get more is mission impossible.
That sounds like a pretty good idea. Filtering out the troll/bogus information from the genuine honest info is not very easy.
I would personally do the feedback in several stages: representatives, meetups, community feedback, and release.
The first stage would be about selecting the representatives for each class. I was thinking about an idea where the community nominated 2-5 players to represent the class community. Players cannot nominate themselves as representatives, but can nominate other players, so as long as the nominations have an explanation for why their nominee should be a class representative. Each class will need to have at least one PvE and PvP representative, so you can account for the issues and bugs of different game modes.
The next stage would be meetings between the devs and reps. The representatives would present their ideas to the dev team, or report any bugs/issues present within the class and the devs would bounce their proposed changes to the representatives. The idea is that the devs may not be fully aware of the issues/bugs within the class, but the representatives would. And likewise: if there's something else that the reps had in mind, the devs would be able to reason/process these changes to see if the proposed changes would make or break a class.
The next stage would to be to program these changes on preview and publicize these proposed changes to the general community. The idea is that the devs and representatives would have good ideas, but would need to check how the general community would respond tho the changes. Or, if there's any bugs, the community can go on preview to check for any funky bugs.
Once enough feedback and data have been given, the last stage would be to push out the changes.
I recall that the devs tried this representative/reporter idea in Mod6 (I think the threads for those are still lurking around?). Now, whether that feedback was good/taken into account is a different story...
----
Anyways, I'm sure the next few reworks (TR, CW, GWF) will be fine (or, at least, "fine-er" than the Mod10 ones), as the devs are responding to our reactions to the changes. Examples of this include the TI change and Mimicking popping into the TR balance thread.
Imagine how the GF/OP/SW/HR reworks would have gone in Mod10 if we had people like dreadnaught or mimicking responding to our reactions...
That sounds like a pretty good idea. Filtering out the troll/bogus information from the genuine honest info is not very easy.
I would personally do the feedback in several stages: representatives, meetups, community feedback, and release.
The first stage would be about selecting the representatives for each class. I was thinking about an idea where the community nominated 2-5 players to represent the class community. Players cannot nominate themselves as representatives, but can nominate other players, so as long as the nominations have an explanation for why their nominee should be a class representative. Each class will need to have at least one PvE and PvP representative, so you can account for the issues and bugs of different game modes.
The next stage would be meetings between the devs and reps. The representatives would present their ideas to the dev team, or report any bugs/issues present within the class and the devs would bounce their proposed changes to the representatives. The idea is that the devs may not be fully aware of the issues/bugs within the class, but the representatives would. And likewise: if there's something else that the reps had in mind, the devs would be able to reason/process these changes to see if the proposed changes would make or break a class.
The next stage would to be to program these changes on preview and publicize these proposed changes to the general community. The idea is that the devs and representatives would have good ideas, but would need to check how the general community would respond tho the changes. Or, if there's any bugs, the community can go on preview to check for any funky bugs.
Once enough feedback and data have been given, the last stage would be to push out the changes.
I recall that the devs tried this representative/reporter idea in Mod6 (I think the threads for those are still lurking around?). Now, whether that feedback was good/taken into account is a different story...
----
Anyways, I'm sure the next few reworks (TR, CW, GWF) will be fine (or, at least, "fine-er" than the Mod10 ones), as the devs are responding to our reactions to the changes. Examples of this include the TI change and Mimicking popping into the TR balance thread.
Imagine how the GF/OP/SW/HR reworks would have gone in Mod10 if we had people like dreadnaught or mimicking responding to our reactions...
Class representive. As I remember, some time ago developers pushed idea named class advocate.. But from very start it where doomed. Now we have @mimicking#6533 , so perhaps we could get better results.
Now there is also one problem, when you visit x class forum, you facing wall of threads which contain no suggestions. And even if so. You need compile them in one place, and mostly moderate so it would not become rage/flaming/trolling field..
But that require active moderator or at least guy who would have permission moderate that one thread... Then either guy who represent x class or even when moderator visit that forum part, he would not had dig out these suggestions from messy forum..
Also why I prefer 1 guy over 5 as you suggest. Well imagine developers decide meet GF and GWF class representives, because some powers between classes are shared.. So u get 10 players in one spot, and from my experience I can tell you, it's not always ends in good way.
But in one and other way I am for it..
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
gwf is balanced for pve but not pvp i see you all talking about DR and all but that doesnt help you when you cant block or dodge any of it. I dont care what they do to us pve wise. just make us the highest dps characters in pvp and nerf our defense to compensate. but at the same time turn down gfs damage too. Pve and pvp need completely different balancing.
Also some piercing dmg resistance would be fantastic maybe like 25% for 3k tenacity or something. not too op but it would help alot.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
gwf is balanced for pve but not pvp i see you all talking about DR and all but that doesnt help you when you cant block or dodge any of it. I dont care what they do to us pve wise. just make us the highest dps characters in pvp and nerf our defense to compensate. but at the same time turn down gfs damage too. Pve and pvp need completely different balancing.
Also some piercing dmg resistance would be fantastic maybe like 25% for 3k tenacity or something. not too op but it would help alot.
The problem while pvp and pve can't be balanced here is because they where/are separated. IT's like 2 games in neverwinter.. Pve = campaign/adventures/dungeons, and other games is pvp.. Until these 2 games unified in one ecosystem there will never be done proper pvp/pve values balancing... Developers can try do it, but it never be able to accomplish it, I can even bet for 110k euro.
As hint > stronghold it's one of key problem maker.. One of funny situation, One guys *(DClv 20 heal focused) joined guild with hall lv 20. and he went to pvp.. Due Stronghold boon 8k power, 8k def,. No one could beat him. He alone with at will powers anihillated other team.. I don't think that DC would not find challenge even if his team would join opposite team..
Guild boons values should be adjusted by 50%.. From 8k to 4k. Then reevaluated pvp boons.. Because it kill any pvp balancing in general. 1 guy with Stamina drain jump in fight, and if that guy is TR infiltrator = whole enemy team sit without stamina..
SM Destroyer GWF is balanced. The other 2 trees and Paragon are broken. They need to fix the broken trees and paragon on GWF and buff the other strikers so they can compete with Guardian Fighter.
Now before fixing, need to do other thing.. Which is decide what role is within group for each builds.. And differences should be noticeably, not minor one.
I think top dmg dealer among these tree should also have lowest survivability.. And that idea instantly enrage 90% gwf community.. They want have def/deflect rates just slightly lower than tanks and have very high dmg output.. So because that other GWF trees will never be viable, and why? Imagine u have to choose top dmg and higher than average defence or even higher defence but noticeably lower dmg output..
My idea is simple. You have highest dmg output within x class, = you have lowest survivability.. SO Gwf in that case should not even attempt tank in any cases.. Yesterday I went to CN, nothing special, but MS destro onliderated dungeon, and he where not top end geared, not even all artifacts where maxed. arti weapons where unncommon(green) ranked.. He bulldozed through bosses as they would made from paper.. And for him only orcus give some challenge . So think, what chances are that other players would pick other builds? FBI should tank real tank, but seems are guys who already did that dungeon without tank at all.. master svardborg also should be done with real tank... So CN is dungeon where striker should not be able tank anymore.. But seems glasscanon GWF still do.. And buffing other classes is not an option.. Personally I think all classes already overbuffed. AS I wrote, FBI done without tank, thats already proved that there is no real challenges within game.
Now the adjustments should be done not for classes, but for boons from stronghold, and from campaign..
Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
Disagree: Balance, as yourself stated on first page, should be done, also, to classes and lock them all just up to 2 roles max, not 5 or 6 like almost all of us have nowadays. Gear, IMO, is really close to the "class balance" problem but i still think that "class balance" (allowing all classes to do all roles at once without any sacrifice) is still the biggest problem that this game has since mod4 until nowadays.
Balancing class and over all it's performance will require done in 3 ways.. 1) non boons, no mounts, companions and insignias.. Just feats, class powers, and base non top end gear.. 2) no boons, no mounts, no companion and insignias just gear, and possible arti set/gear builds.. 3) fully geared, fully boons, companions, insignias enabled. Full top end gear and full buffed.
Now if we balance class all alone it will not help.. Because in start you have like 10k dmg output, after moment due stacking mechanics and boons got enabled your character dealing 100k dmg output.. AS example, x class have 30k power, stable, non buffed no stacking effect triggered.. But after 1min in fight he hit over 100k power... So due boons, due artifact sets, due artifacts itselfs, due gear and class feat effects you dealing way more dmg..
In other words,, balancing must be done by looking in low, mid, high and top end players.. Not just looking in one group. If we nerf x powers without counting boons and buffs influence, we kill low players. But if we buff low players carelessly we overbuff top end players in end process..
It's good when players look in pictures details.. But need to look to whole picture too.. Even small changes can cause big impact in whole picture...
As I wrote example, guy without high end gear, due boons can beat other players without even putting any efforts..
Try accumulate 8k power just via gear.. But keeping lets say 6k arp, and 9k crit.. And meantime lets say 9k def, deflect we ignore, But let say 4k life steal. Try get them via gear.. Even with myth rank artifacts it's not easy task.. With stronghold boons u getting free high stats which normally is hard to achieve..
So this class disbalance also is caused by boons. And my suggested berserk/defender feats are ment to count external buffing elements in progress..
After all if berserk feat apply = you give up 15% defensive stats, Thats mean, even if u stack all possible defensive boons from campaigns, stronghold or accumulate from mounts/insingias or companions. You will still give up 15%.... But that value will relocated to offensive stats...
So it make GWF strong and weak in same time.. He deal more dmg = benefit for gwf and party due his dmg.. Downside he will not be able tank so easily anymore...
And if you have offtank build, also due feat your stats will not be insane high..
IT's all calculated and included possible external buff/debuf elements..
They have to buff the damage of the other striker classes way over the damage output of GF and DC, at least for the sake of my sanity. Right now I think the DPS GF and DPS DC can overtake most strikers, which is sad.
100% nop. WHy? because game already easy. Why buff more?? Also if they will buff others, = in next mod we get back in same situation as we are now.. Remember mod 6. What kind stats where in that time.. With Stronghold release what changed.. Also in mod 8 there where players who could hit such insane stats which now we consider normal. (over 100k powa)
Also dmg already is to high for most classes.. FBI dungeon do not even require tank to complete it.. If we buff other strikers even more = middle finger to tank, even GWF offtank builds..
We buff players = whole dungeons will had to be cut, to rebalance them for current players stats.. Why do u think they cut old dungeons? To make sure that monsters would give decent fight/challenge players.
More buffing = giving thermoNuclear gun in players hand and pretend that would not mess up game balance...
AS for fun, look to these guys in this video, and do they need more buffs? And fernu here with templock build(non striker)
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
Lets see. You guys claiming that > you all want balance<. Yet it's seems you don't want balancing at all. In other words, lot talks, and hopping that actual balancing never happened.
When someone suggest reduce offensive stats, you guys pointing how low offtank builds dmg output is, and just bad and require buffing. When someone suggest reduce tankines, you guys pointing out glasscanon dmg build, and that glasscanon is to brittle and need buff. In other words you guys just want free buffs.
Now I proposed idea how balance builds, to extend their primary roles capabilities.. If GWF dmg dealer build = extend it via berserker. If build is offtank, extend defensive stats by giving up part of offensive capabilities..
However, once you guys hear out even small idea about possible even small x stat adjustment, we always getting same effect. And this gif image represent how it look like. http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/trrfd.gif
Now as suggestion which I wrote, it's not like I created it from scratch. This mechanic itself is know for years and used in countless mmorpg games. Berserk which boost up offensive stats, yet reduce defensive stats. In some games even drain HP which this effect is enabled.
Parry Stance - which boost up defensive stats, while reducing offensive capabilities, in other mmorpg games even makes user immobile.
Some of you probably would think it's nonsense.. But here is copy of powers which use Lienage 2 game.. And class,> Destroyer< which is similar to GWF.
Skills name = Parry Stance - Uses weapon to block incoming attacks. P. Def and M. Def increase significantly. Speed, Atk. Spd. and accuracy are decreased. MP will be continuously consumed while in effect.
And attack speed there is crucial part in that game, also that class has low MP and its regeneration. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Next Berserker Spirit - Temporarily reduces P. Def., M. Def. and Evasion while increasing P. Atk., M. Atk., Atk. Spd., Casting Spd. and Speed.
As you can see, you gain dmg output increase, attack speed increase, yet you lose defensive stats. So, there is effect, and there is price to pay for it..
In other words, if you decide to be tank, you should not outdmg real dmg dealer/striker. If you are dmg dealer you should never outtank actual tank.. This is general rule in order balance classes, in any mmorpg game..
And untill neverwinter start using this rule, there will be no balance, neither pve, neither pvp.
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
Man, you can go on youtube and find videos of every class soloing dungeons, not taking damage while doing massive damage. This whole GWF is more tanky thing is a crock. If it gets nerfed any more, it will not be able to even be a melee fighter. I have witnessed an SW face-tank. They are much more tanky than GWF. Watch a GWF barely beat a GF. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaOJLC76-co
Link me where DC solo dungeons.... Would like to see that one.
Now about GWF.. Lets assume I am totally new player in game, and I decide start play as GWF.. Now try convince me that I should pick other GWF builds over SM destroyer..
Why I should pick let say sentinel over destro? If I can see counteless times that SM destro offtank dungeons and deal lot of dmg? Why I should even pick other paragon path?
The answer is> there is no reason to other than destro< Why lose x dmg if u destro SM have pack of both, high offensive and yet high survivability.
As for being weak in tankines,, for got sake, pick couple defensive boons from campaign, instead making full glasscanon. After all glass is brittle.
And now coolest part. When you run dungeon with party, it usually contain either DC or GF or OP. So it's not like u facing fights all alone. YOu weakness got covered with buffs.
There are countelss suggestions how balance, without overnerfing GWF. But you guys stop writing HAMSTER. All what u want is get back DPS crown and also want have offtanking in same pack..
Now as video which u linked..
You play neverwinter long enough, and yet seems forgot that, Companions sets, boons sets, heck even enchants and gear sets influence in class performance.. Do u had same gear, same artifact sets, same companions same mounts same insignias? I don't think so. Whats abound bonding runes?
Also you play long enough, to know that in the dungeon end provided score table is worst tool to measure class performance..
So lets pretend that u didn't post this video, and make sure u would not do that again.....
Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
Watch any other class beeing main dps in fastest speedruns. Oh wait. There is only Gwf... thx for raising the issue defiatone
Why other Striker can't be on top in speed run? Does NWO is ment only for GWF?
And unlike other classe, lets say if I pick SW furry, what chances are to see me offtanking in dungeons?? OR what chances TR will offtank in dungeons and deal high dmg? What chances are DC< offtank and deal lot of dmg? What chances CW will offtank dungeon and deal lot of dmg?
CW edge always where CC elements, but latest dungeons have CC immune monsters.. So they had focus on dmg.. Now, how much CW can offtank.. The answer they can't. Glasscanon = brittle.
But you GF and GWF community want both, tankines and insane dmg output.
So until you give up one role on favor for other role. There will be no balance.
ohh well. I wrote my proposal. And there is nothing else can be done. Either you guys want balance even among other GWF builds or not.. Choose.
Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
Comments
For Glasscanon, As I wrote in my previous post. They should get berserk like effect.. In fight increase their offensive stats by x percentage,, while in same percentage give up defensive stats..
As example, if GWF is in non combat, no changes. But once it start hitting = offensive stats increase by like 10%, (power, arp, crit). While in exchange lose 10% def, deflect.
For guys who want offtank, no problem. in start of fight, or receiving hits, Gwf lose 10% offensive stats, but lost values are added to it's defensive stats. Def/ deflect.,
Now this is just quick idea.. But as you can see with 2 feats implementing. U can either boost up offensive capabilities or defensive ones with 2 feats.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
Now even if lets say gf/gwf players agree to get these 2 feats. It's bring problem called, values sizes.
And this part is mostly depend on gf and gwf community.
They should decide among themselfs
1) how much they willing to give up defensive stats in favor for offensive increase.
2) how much offensive stats they would give up in favor for defensive stats increase.
As example I could suggest that values would be like up to 15% max.. However, I prefer that GF, and GWF players decide among themselfs. So latter would not be complains..
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
Might have to think about this a little more but for a snap judgement for sake of it thats my opinion at this moment.
10% gain = 10% lose. It's not buffing, it's not nerfing. This stuff would just reallocate some stats in favor for other ones.
Why I insist that? Well due certain reasons, firstly you give up def/deflect, but gain power, crit, arp. So all alone you get more than u give up. Not mentioned you still have life steal, and HP pool, and even regeneration.
Next, mostly this berserk feat user will stay in group with supporters which cover his weakness with buffs. Thats why I think
20% lose 25% increase could be something more reasonable..
On top we should think about other defensive stats. Now GF have regeneration abilities.. And I prefer that this berserk effect would adjust regeneration effect or even implement DoT effect, which drain HP while user is in fight. It would be as counter regeneration and life steal mechanics...
AS defenese stat boosting with feats. also it should not visual seen exchange. You get more defensive stats, but lose offensive..
Now exchange > 20% offensive lose = 25% defensive stat increase..
Thats mean you give up 20% power, 20% RI, 20% crit.
But gain 20% def, 20% deflect, 20% even 20% regeneration increase. However I prefer exclude life steal mechanic.. Because it's depend on dealt dmg.
So you can see, it's not so simple as you think where at first..
Thats why I want that GF and GWF community decide how much they willing to give up in exchange to gain extra values..
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
Also GF have HP regeneration abilities, while GWF is ability to get temp HP..
Anyways,, I still do prefer some GF and GWF's would come with proper values and also write why they think it would be better in that way....
I am open for other solutions,, but just don't want carelessly buff or carelessly nerf..
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
Also it's not like gona happens that developers would take this idea and use it. Because theres is always some players who will go against any changes.. Some players want more buffs regardless their builds, stats and so one..
Some guys make glasscannon striker and try tank, die and latter ask more buffs.. So instead looking to his builds flaws, he demand more buffing. If he don't get, he demand that other classes would be nerfed.
If you look from developers side, they getting lot of suggestions, buff this, buff that, nerft otherss.. After reading first 100 suggestions you starting ignore all proposed changes... I know that,, I have been in such situation...
Also lets say, we decide to use his idea.
Then we need rewrite whole idea properly, with explanation why developers should implement it.
Then most crucial part would be, get majority players from these classes agreement.
If you have like 10 players who agree for this idea = nothing. You need at least 50 players who would agree on this idea. Then you will get at least some developers attention.
And to get more than 15 players agreement here in neverwinter is already legendary achievement, and get more is mission impossible.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
I would personally do the feedback in several stages: representatives, meetups, community feedback, and release.
The first stage would be about selecting the representatives for each class. I was thinking about an idea where the community nominated 2-5 players to represent the class community. Players cannot nominate themselves as representatives, but can nominate other players, so as long as the nominations have an explanation for why their nominee should be a class representative. Each class will need to have at least one PvE and PvP representative, so you can account for the issues and bugs of different game modes.
The next stage would be meetings between the devs and reps. The representatives would present their ideas to the dev team, or report any bugs/issues present within the class and the devs would bounce their proposed changes to the representatives. The idea is that the devs may not be fully aware of the issues/bugs within the class, but the representatives would. And likewise: if there's something else that the reps had in mind, the devs would be able to reason/process these changes to see if the proposed changes would make or break a class.
The next stage would to be to program these changes on preview and publicize these proposed changes to the general community. The idea is that the devs and representatives would have good ideas, but would need to check how the general community would respond tho the changes. Or, if there's any bugs, the community can go on preview to check for any funky bugs.
Once enough feedback and data have been given, the last stage would be to push out the changes.
I recall that the devs tried this representative/reporter idea in Mod6 (I think the threads for those are still lurking around?). Now, whether that feedback was good/taken into account is a different story...
----
Anyways, I'm sure the next few reworks (TR, CW, GWF) will be fine (or, at least, "fine-er" than the Mod10 ones), as the devs are responding to our reactions to the changes. Examples of this include the TI change and Mimicking popping into the TR balance thread.
Imagine how the GF/OP/SW/HR reworks would have gone in Mod10 if we had people like dreadnaught or mimicking responding to our reactions...
Now we have @mimicking#6533 , so perhaps we could get better results.
Now there is also one problem, when you visit x class forum, you facing wall of threads which contain no suggestions. And even if so. You need compile them in one place, and mostly moderate so it would not become rage/flaming/trolling field..
But that require active moderator or at least guy who would have permission moderate that one thread...
Then either guy who represent x class or even when moderator visit that forum part, he would not had dig out these suggestions from messy forum..
Also why I prefer 1 guy over 5 as you suggest. Well imagine developers decide meet GF and GWF class representives, because some powers between classes are shared.. So u get 10 players in one spot, and from my experience I can tell you, it's not always ends in good way.
But in one and other way I am for it..
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
Also some piercing dmg resistance would be fantastic maybe like 25% for 3k tenacity or something. not too op but it would help alot.
As hint > stronghold it's one of key problem maker.. One of funny situation, One guys *(DClv 20 heal focused) joined guild with hall lv 20. and he went to pvp.. Due Stronghold boon 8k power, 8k def,. No one could beat him. He alone with at will powers anihillated other team.. I don't think that DC would not find challenge even if his team would join opposite team..
Guild boons values should be adjusted by 50%.. From 8k to 4k. Then reevaluated pvp boons.. Because it kill any pvp balancing in general. 1 guy with Stamina drain jump in fight, and if that guy is TR infiltrator = whole enemy team sit without stamina..
Now before fixing, need to do other thing.. Which is decide what role is within group for each builds.. And differences should be noticeably, not minor one.
I think top dmg dealer among these tree should also have lowest survivability.. And that idea instantly enrage 90% gwf community.. They want have def/deflect rates just slightly lower than tanks and have very high dmg output.. So because that other GWF trees will never be viable, and why? Imagine u have to choose top dmg and higher than average defence or even higher defence but noticeably lower dmg output..
My idea is simple. You have highest dmg output within x class, = you have lowest survivability.. SO Gwf in that case should not even attempt tank in any cases..
Yesterday I went to CN, nothing special, but MS destro onliderated dungeon, and he where not top end geared, not even all artifacts where maxed. arti weapons where unncommon(green) ranked.. He bulldozed through bosses as they would made from paper..
And for him only orcus give some challenge . So think, what chances are that other players would pick other builds? FBI should tank real tank, but seems are guys who already did that dungeon without tank at all..
master svardborg also should be done with real tank... So CN is dungeon where striker should not be able tank anymore.. But seems glasscanon GWF still do..
And buffing other classes is not an option.. Personally I think all classes already overbuffed. AS I wrote, FBI done without tank, thats already proved that there is no real challenges within game.
Now the adjustments should be done not for classes, but for boons from stronghold, and from campaign..
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
1) non boons, no mounts, companions and insignias.. Just feats, class powers, and base non top end gear..
2) no boons, no mounts, no companion and insignias just gear, and possible arti set/gear builds..
3) fully geared, fully boons, companions, insignias enabled. Full top end gear and full buffed.
Now if we balance class all alone it will not help.. Because in start you have like 10k dmg output, after moment due stacking mechanics and boons got enabled your character dealing 100k dmg output.. AS example, x class have 30k power, stable, non buffed no stacking effect triggered.. But after 1min in fight he hit over 100k power...
So due boons, due artifact sets, due artifacts itselfs, due gear and class feat effects you dealing way more dmg..
In other words,, balancing must be done by looking in low, mid, high and top end players.. Not just looking in one group. If we nerf x powers without counting boons and buffs influence, we kill low players. But if we buff low players carelessly we overbuff top end players in end process..
It's good when players look in pictures details.. But need to look to whole picture too..
As I wrote example, guy without high end gear, due boons can beat other players without even putting any efforts..
Try accumulate 8k power just via gear.. But keeping lets say 6k arp, and 9k crit.. And meantime lets say 9k def, deflect we ignore, But let say 4k life steal. Try get them via gear.. Even with myth rank artifacts it's not easy task.. With stronghold boons u getting free high stats which normally is hard to achieve..
So this class disbalance also is caused by boons. And my suggested berserk/defender feats are ment to count external buffing elements in progress..
After all if berserk feat apply = you give up 15% defensive stats, Thats mean, even if u stack all possible defensive boons from campaigns, stronghold or accumulate from mounts/insingias or companions. You will still give up 15%.... But that value will relocated to offensive stats...
So it make GWF strong and weak in same time.. He deal more dmg = benefit for gwf and party due his dmg..
Downside he will not be able tank so easily anymore...
And if you have offtank build, also due feat your stats will not be insane high..
IT's all calculated and included possible external buff/debuf elements..
100% nop. WHy? because game already easy. Why buff more?? Also if they will buff others, = in next mod we get back in same situation as we are now..
Remember mod 6. What kind stats where in that time.. With Stronghold release what changed..
Also in mod 8 there where players who could hit such insane stats which now we consider normal. (over 100k powa)
Also dmg already is to high for most classes.. FBI dungeon do not even require tank to complete it.. If we buff other strikers even more = middle finger to tank, even GWF offtank builds..
We buff players = whole dungeons will had to be cut, to rebalance them for current players stats.. Why do u think they cut old dungeons? To make sure that monsters would give decent fight/challenge players.
More buffing = giving thermoNuclear gun in players hand and pretend that would not mess up game balance...
AS for fun, look to these guys in this video, and do they need more buffs? And fernu here with templock build(non striker)
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
You guys claiming that > you all want balance<. Yet it's seems you don't want balancing at all. In other words, lot talks, and hopping that actual balancing never happened.
When someone suggest reduce offensive stats, you guys pointing how low offtank builds dmg output is, and just bad and require buffing.
When someone suggest reduce tankines, you guys pointing out glasscanon dmg build, and that glasscanon is to brittle and need buff.
In other words you guys just want free buffs.
Now I proposed idea how balance builds, to extend their primary roles capabilities.. If GWF dmg dealer build = extend it via berserker.
If build is offtank, extend defensive stats by giving up part of offensive capabilities..
However, once you guys hear out even small idea about possible even small x stat adjustment, we always getting same effect.
And this gif image represent how it look like.
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/trrfd.gif
Now as suggestion which I wrote, it's not like I created it from scratch. This mechanic itself is know for years and used in countless mmorpg games.
Berserk which boost up offensive stats, yet reduce defensive stats. In some games even drain HP which this effect is enabled.
Parry Stance - which boost up defensive stats, while reducing offensive capabilities, in other mmorpg games even makes user immobile.
Some of you probably would think it's nonsense.. But here is copy of powers which use Lienage 2 game..
And class,> Destroyer< which is similar to GWF.
Skills name = Parry Stance - Uses weapon to block incoming attacks. P. Def and M. Def increase significantly. Speed, Atk. Spd. and accuracy are decreased. MP will be continuously consumed while in effect.
And attack speed there is crucial part in that game, also that class has low MP and its regeneration.
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Next Berserker Spirit - Temporarily reduces P. Def., M. Def. and Evasion while increasing P. Atk., M. Atk., Atk. Spd., Casting Spd. and Speed.
As you can see, you gain dmg output increase, attack speed increase, yet you lose defensive stats.
So, there is effect, and there is price to pay for it..
In other words, if you decide to be tank, you should not outdmg real dmg dealer/striker.
If you are dmg dealer you should never outtank actual tank.. This is general rule in order balance classes, in any mmorpg game..
And untill neverwinter start using this rule, there will be no balance, neither pve, neither pvp.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
Now about GWF.. Lets assume I am totally new player in game, and I decide start play as GWF.. Now try convince me that I should pick other GWF builds over SM destroyer..
Why I should pick let say sentinel over destro? If I can see counteless times that SM destro offtank dungeons and deal lot of dmg?
Why I should even pick other paragon path?
The answer is> there is no reason to other than destro<
Why lose x dmg if u destro SM have pack of both, high offensive and yet high survivability.
As for being weak in tankines,, for got sake, pick couple defensive boons from campaign, instead making full glasscanon.
After all glass is brittle.
And now coolest part. When you run dungeon with party, it usually contain either DC or GF or OP.
So it's not like u facing fights all alone. YOu weakness got covered with buffs.
There are countelss suggestions how balance, without overnerfing GWF. But you guys stop writing HAMSTER. All what u want is get back DPS crown and also want have offtanking in same pack..
Now as video which u linked..
You play neverwinter long enough, and yet seems forgot that, Companions sets, boons sets, heck even enchants and gear sets influence in class performance.. Do u had same gear, same artifact sets, same companions same mounts same insignias? I don't think so.
Whats abound bonding runes?
Also you play long enough, to know that in the dungeon end provided score table is worst tool to measure class performance..
So lets pretend that u didn't post this video, and make sure u would not do that again.....
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
And unlike other classe, lets say if I pick SW furry, what chances are to see me offtanking in dungeons??
OR what chances TR will offtank in dungeons and deal high dmg?
What chances are DC< offtank and deal lot of dmg?
What chances CW will offtank dungeon and deal lot of dmg?
CW edge always where CC elements, but latest dungeons have CC immune monsters.. So they had focus on dmg..
Now, how much CW can offtank.. The answer they can't. Glasscanon = brittle.
But you GF and GWF community want both, tankines and insane dmg output.
So until you give up one role on favor for other role. There will be no balance.
ohh well. I wrote my proposal. And there is nothing else can be done. Either you guys want balance even among other GWF builds or not.. Choose.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
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