Can we get the rest of class balance with Mod 11b?

defiantone99

CW, TR and GWF need major work. GF, SW and HR are quite imbalanced and need more work. Can we get this done so we can get a new class? Or, is a new class off the table?

rickcase276

I somehow doubt that they have the allotted dev hours to even think about doing that with Mod11b.

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beckylunatic

I'm projecting 11b will release May 2, so I'm thinking... not likely.

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beckylunatic

I think it would be genuinely worse to delay loadouts until remaining classes have had a balancing pass, even though it's only nominally useful for some of the DPSers, because it will be such a massive improvement for players with a need for support/solo specs. (And feat and boon picks actually can have a major impact even if you're doing it all in the same gear.)

You can see the ongoing challenge of releasing something that's completed enough to be useful, even if it's not "perfect" (and perhaps likely to never be, as other stuff evolves).

vida44

I do have ideas on how to use loadouts on a GWF, and it will help me a lot to try some new ideas.
I welcome the loadouts to finally try some new things without messing up my main setup. This will help me a lot till a "balance" pass goes through.

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hawkeyel

The only thing they have done with class balance is nerf the things people use the most and buff things people never use. When they removed the caps on our skills and allow every class to be everything any chance at balance was lost. Be it power, crit, life steal all class just went all out DPS. They even adjusted the game for it when they added hit points to everything. The only thing a boss fight can do in this game is a cheap one shot kill .Other than that they do nothing. So they will get around to getting the rest done in the same way I just told you .Dont expect much and you want be to disapointed.

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hadestemplar

defiantone99 said:

CW, TR and GWF need major work. GF, SW and HR are quite imbalanced and need more work. Can we get this done so we can get a new class? Or, is a new class off the table?

I think before rework, perhaps need to clarify class role within group. CW is master of field control. So obviously it would had lower dmg output as full striker class as GWF.

Same goes for all classes within game. Before rework, need remember their role within groups. Player pick DC, so it should stay as supporter not play as tank, or as high dps striker, neither had ability to rival Cw in term of CC.

TR role is top single target elimination, not bulldozing through dungeon as GWF. Same goes for HR..

Also need to count that, if you pick class without any guild, campaign, mounts and companions. They have different performance..
In old Nwo versions dodging where main reason to survive fights.. Now due high stats players hold enemies with gear and their stats. So gameplay over all changed. And this lead to class dissbalance.

I am for class rework. But Not just buffing or nerfing.. I am for reintroducing classes back to their roles.

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armadeonx

bloodyspamer said:

defiantone99 said:

CW, TR and GWF need major work. GF, SW and HR are quite imbalanced and need more work. Can we get this done so we can get a new class? Or, is a new class off the table?

I think before rework, perhaps need to clarify class role within group. CW is master of field control. So obviously it would had lower dmg output as full striker class as GWF.

Same goes for all classes within game. Before rework, need remember their role within groups. Player pick DC, so it should stay as supporter not play as tank, or as high dps striker, neither had ability to rival Cw in term of CC.

TR role is top single target elimination, not bulldozing through dungeon as GWF. Same goes for HR..

...I am for class rework. But Not just buffing or nerfing.. I am for reintroducing classes back to their roles.

The funny thing about you saying that is in your forum sig:

"Class: Hellbringer temptation warlock
Proffesion/gameplay: Field medic, buffer, debuffer and paingiver. "

hadestemplar

armadeonx said:

bloodyspamer said:

defiantone99 said:

CW, TR and GWF need major work. GF, SW and HR are quite imbalanced and need more work. Can we get this done so we can get a new class? Or, is a new class off the table?

I think before rework, perhaps need to clarify class role within group. CW is master of field control. So obviously it would had lower dmg output as full striker class as GWF.

Same goes for all classes within game. Before rework, need remember their role within groups. Player pick DC, so it should stay as supporter not play as tank, or as high dps striker, neither had ability to rival Cw in term of CC.

TR role is top single target elimination, not bulldozing through dungeon as GWF. Same goes for HR..

...I am for class rework. But Not just buffing or nerfing.. I am for reintroducing classes back to their roles.

The funny thing about you saying that is in your forum sig:

"Class: Hellbringer temptation warlock
Proffesion/gameplay: Field medic, buffer, debuffer and paingiver. "

Well, if you had played with temptation warlock, or even if read it's feats list, you would understand.
But seems u are not. temptation warlocks feats contain >buffs, debuffs, healing. < And because warlock by nature is striker I have decent dmg output. Way lower than fury yet, high enough to assist party...

Paragon paths and feats are just customization tools, which powers you want to enchant and which not.

defiantone99 said:

I agree with most of that, but GWF is an off-tank. It needs more utility and tankiness. Being able to tank, defend the team and survive are what GWF needs the most. Wizards wear cloth armor, they are supposed to have massive DPS to make up for being so squishy.

Well GWF so called offtaking is kinda strong enough. It should be able tank mid tear dungeons, some higher tear dungeons. But top dungeons runs should tank real tank. Otherwise kill reason pick OP and GF.
Also if you increase GWF's defensive/deflect/life steal stats you can hold bosses quite well.
However, players don't want give up offensive stats. And thats why offtank gwf die.


In all my played mmorpg games always where same rule.

if you increase offensive = give up defensive stats.
If increase defensive = lose offensive.

here in neverwinter you pick offensive> complain about poor surviability > developers buff your class.
Thats mean you don't have to give up something in exchange. And until this way keep goes in NWO no balance will be done.

c3rb3r3

I'm fine with Destroyer being the squishy with tons of damage path, but the others are not at all worth using. Loadouts are gonna be useless to me. Definitely needs a rework.

armadeonx

bloodyspamer said:

armadeonx said:

bloodyspamer said:

defiantone99 said:

CW, TR and GWF need major work. GF, SW and HR are quite imbalanced and need more work. Can we get this done so we can get a new class? Or, is a new class off the table?

I think before rework, perhaps need to clarify class role within group. CW is master of field control. So obviously it would had lower dmg output as full striker class as GWF.

Same goes for all classes within game. Before rework, need remember their role within groups. Player pick DC, so it should stay as supporter not play as tank, or as high dps striker, neither had ability to rival Cw in term of CC.

TR role is top single target elimination, not bulldozing through dungeon as GWF. Same goes for HR..

...I am for class rework. But Not just buffing or nerfing.. I am for reintroducing classes back to their roles.

The funny thing about you saying that is in your forum sig:

"Class: Hellbringer temptation warlock
Proffesion/gameplay: Field medic, buffer, debuffer and paingiver. "

Well, if you had played with temptation warlock, or even if read it's feats list, you would understand.
But seems u are not. temptation warlocks feats contain >buffs, debuffs, healing. < And because warlock by nature is striker I have decent dmg output. Way lower than fury yet, high enough to assist party...

Paragon paths and feats are just customization tools, which powers you want to enchant and which not.

defiantone99 said:

I agree with most of that, but GWF is an off-tank. It needs more utility and tankiness. Being able to tank, defend the team and survive are what GWF needs the most. Wizards wear cloth armor, they are supposed to have massive DPS to make up for being so squishy.

Well GWF so called offtaking is kinda strong enough. It should be able tank mid tear dungeons, some higher tear dungeons. But top dungeons runs should tank real tank. Otherwise kill reason pick OP and GF.
Also if you increase GWF's defensive/deflect/life steal stats you can hold bosses quite well.
However, players don't want give up offensive stats. And thats why offtank gwf die.


In all my played mmorpg games always where same rule.

if you increase offensive = give up defensive stats.
If increase defensive = lose offensive.

here in neverwinter you pick offensive> complain about poor surviability > developers buff your class.
Thats mean you don't have to give up something in exchange. And until this way keep goes in NWO no balance will be done.

I think you're missing my point - it was one of irony. You were suggesting that NW should "clarify class role within group" and should stick to a specific task and not try to cross over into other roles, but you admit to doing that yourself but it's 'ok cos it's in your feats'.

That's funny because most classes that cross the class role barriers do so via their feats (e.g. Conqueror GF, Buff CW, DPS DC) but you object to those - simply because they are not your class...

But of course it's easier for you to suggest I don't understand because "I haven't even read it's feats list". Speaking of which, perhaps you should read my signature so you can see which classes I play.

I'm perfectly aware of what the SW is capable of, that wasn't my point. I was simply highlighting some hypocrisy

hadestemplar

armadeonx said:

I think you're missing my point - it was one of irony. You were suggesting that NW should "clarify class role within group" and should stick to a specific task and not try to cross over into other roles, but you admit to doing that yourself but it's 'ok cos it's in your feats'.

That's funny because most classes that cross the class role barriers do so via their feats (e.g. Conqueror GF, Buff CW, DPS DC) but you object to those - simply because they are not your class...

But of course it's easier for you to suggest I don't understand because "I haven't even read it's feats list". Speaking of which, perhaps you should read my signature so you can see which classes I play.

I'm perfectly aware of what the SW is capable of, that wasn't my point. I was simply highlighting some hypocrisy

I suggest that NW should remind players what class they play. Not lock them in specific gameplay.
And remind because there are lot of suggestions how "balance" game. Or more specific how x class is way underpowered only because players don't even try play with it properly.
Heal build DC act as striker. fail beat HR, GWF, Furry Sw. Then in forum complain of game disballance. And that dc need extra buffings.
TR master inflitrator player, dash in largest enemies group, Die within moment. Then same as DC complain about game dissbalance, because he could not bulldoze enemies as GWF. Or tank as GF/OP. Yet forgot that he have STEALTH ability, and get out of fight when it's become to harsh..

CW complain that SW's powers have too high dmg. Yet forgot that he have 4 encounters slotted, while SW only 3.
CW cast all 4 in same speed as SW cast 3 encounters.. Even CW"s seems weaker, yet combined over all they go on par with SW.
SW don't have as many CC effects as CW but Wizard players do not count it in comparisons.

TR master infiltrator< name itself tells that you are assasin. Thats mean best, single target eliminator not Aoe Freak. Yet players expect that TR easily due rapid mouse hitting should be able full AoE.

So I do not discourage players to try something new.. But I discourage them from complaining about their class only because they could not achieve same performance as specific class. For example, if u are TR do not expect to be able tank as GF/OP.
If u are heal DC don't expect outdps gwf or TR.
IF u are SW should not expect beat CW in term of CC.
If u are GWF even offtank. you should not be able fully change real tank in top end games..

I am temptation SW, and I do not expect that I can beat furry SW.. Yet some guys still do think temptation can/should be able do that..


And as for signature.. there is written SW, but not which spec.. Temptation and furry gameplay and roles are different..

Tempt is healer, while furry all about dmg..
Now since there are not so many temptation SW around, and even less are damnation, thats naturally to think that u are furry spec..

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armadeonx

The big issue is how they design the dungeons and certain mechanics. They've rendered healing and control almost obsolete and left only DPS and de/buff as viable options. Hence everyone goes for these.

The fault lies squarely with the game developers, there's nothing the players can do about it.

hadestemplar

armadeonx said:

The big issue is how they design the dungeons and certain mechanics. They've rendered healing and control almost obsolete and left only DPS and de/buff as viable options. Hence everyone goes for these.

The fault lies squarely with the game developers, there's nothing the players can do about it.

Take away guild, campaign boons for 1 months. And CW opressor(CC) tree is back to business. Same goes for healers.
Due high buffs and boons/ insignias provided stats. Most incoming dmg get adjusted to point, that lost HP pool easily got covered with HP potion. Now took boons away, leave gear and paragon feats all alone. And game balance get back in tracks.
HR back to dodging, TR back to assasin gameplay, GWF stop being bulldozer. And other GWF builds become viable once again.
SW's damnation also become viable.
In other words glass canons become viable only if having decent supporting as backup to cover their weakness.

I can bet in mod 13 with new boons game balance will be messed up even more.. And mod 14 even x2 more than current mod 11 dissbalance. And mod 15 make certain class ONLY one class within game. And others become just for view.

All what need to do, is developers stop stamping boons. Turn heads around, reevaluate what kind interactions boons now provide.
There are already lot of boons who deal x dmg as Aoe once certain stacks reached. In past there where one such boon.

In past boons/buffs influence in fight where 40%. Thats mean 60% split between gear, gameplay and players skills(dodging, counterattacking etc.)
Now boons/buffs influence in fight is 200%. No teamwork, no players kills are required.
Enough get proper buff packs from group and by random keyboard smashing u will deal gazilion dmg.

So all/major problem is too many buffing factors within game.

darthtzarr

bloodyspamer said:

armadeonx said:

The big issue is how they design the dungeons and certain mechanics. They've rendered healing and control almost obsolete and left only DPS and de/buff as viable options. Hence everyone goes for these.

The fault lies squarely with the game developers, there's nothing the players can do about it.

Take away guild, campaign boons for 1 months. And CW opressor(CC) tree is back to business.

How in the world would CC be back in business when we have nearly an entire dungeon of CC immune enemies? Oppressor is useless against bosses, and is useless against giants (or any other CC Immune or resistant monster). Sure it could be useful in lower content, if we weren't killing stuff in one hit and weren't completely immune to their damage anyways, but reducing our power won't bring CC back. Enemies have to be CC-able before CC can return.

armadeonx

Yeah too much buffing, too much 1-shotting enemies, too much CC resistant enemies, too much Lifesteal etc but this is the reality. I can't see them changing these things as everything they've released from mod 6 onward has added to it. They'd have to rewrite everything - which they won't. As such, what you see is what you get.

vida44

Haha @bloodyspamer .
Saying that removing boons will make other GWF builds viable is so out of touch with reality. You are just silly my friend.

demonmonger

I personally enjoy my current master infiltrator saboteur trickster, and I don't want any of my mechanics changed.

If they want to buff up some weak powers or make bait and switch fight and deal damage good.

If they want to speed up the atrack animation for gloaming strike good.

If they want to make tenacious concealment grant the entire party stealth when I stealth plus speed boost even better.

There are many little tweaks that can be done to make tr better without destroying the class.

I would say start by thinking about the above listed things.

Don't give us more dot powers...

hadestemplar

darthtzarr said:

bloodyspamer said:

armadeonx said:

The big issue is how they design the dungeons and certain mechanics. They've rendered healing and control almost obsolete and left only DPS and de/buff as viable options. Hence everyone goes for these.

The fault lies squarely with the game developers, there's nothing the players can do about it.

Take away guild, campaign boons for 1 months. And CW opressor(CC) tree is back to business.

How in the world would CC be back in business when we have nearly an entire dungeon of CC immune enemies? Oppressor is useless against bosses, and is useless against giants (or any other CC Immune or resistant monster). Sure it could be useful in lower content, if we weren't killing stuff in one hit and weren't completely immune to their damage anyways, but reducing our power won't bring CC back. Enemies have to be CC-able before CC can return.

My friend, copy your character to preview server. Pick feats, gear. But no guild, neither campaign boons. Trust me, game changes instantly. While with full boons sets u can give middle finger in most fights. Without them u are more weak.

So offtank GWF build become viable because full dps/glasscanon would not be able bulldoze through dungeons..
It's like first 10 days of mod 6 introduction. All glasscanon fans received bi**Slap. Defensive boons once again become viable.


And how Opressor CW become viable. well you mentioning only 1 dungeon. Ignoring 89% of remaining game content... And contrrolling is just another form of team supporting..
It's not dps mashine as your guys think.. And it's common thing with current module players.
They ask what my build is SW, I tell them temptation, then they ask, do it deal more dmg than fury, I tell them no, and they say then this build sucks.. Even in fact I lead whole dungeon in tankin, dmg dealing, not mentioned kept these selfish >>bast**ds< alive..

Currently all focusing how squeeze out more dmg. Only because too many buffing elements are within games, and they cover each builds weakness. So other builds become least viable. But once this overbuffing mania got out, then all classes, all builds back to it's viability..
Want more dps = high dmg = less survivability,
Mid dps, mid survivability.
Offtank = low dps, high survivability .

And my friends, it's not first game who where in same situation as NWO are now..

gabrieldourden

Agree with you. It's mod 5 again. Mod 6 was great dungeon wise. I started to use Crushing Roots on my HR again for control and Fox to support the party. My HR felt again a support jack-of-all-trades which is why I picked it as my main from the beginning. Now it's back to full DPS except when soloing or going duo (which is basically the only interesting thing in the game when you exceed a certain gear).

vida44

bloodyspamer said:

So offtank GWF build become viable because full dps/glasscanon would not be able bulldoze through dungeons..
It's like first 10 days of mod 6 introduction. All glasscanon fans received bi**Slap. Defensive boons once again become viable.

You are joking right?

hadestemplar

vida44 said:

You are joking right?

Have u been first months when neverwinter mod 6 went live? Seems nop,

But I was there.
So how players died countless times even in fight with drowned shores area. To kill maps boss crab required at least 2 parties..
Mod 6 is know by 2 names..
1) Warlock holocaust,
2) glorious days for CW and DC's.

And I also call it glasscanon slayer. In first days players with glass canon had very low def/deflect rates..
Till mod 7 introduction to complete eCC dungeon, 80% players abused widely know glitch to lure boss in pit/trap. Because only tough tank could handle boss.. Not mentioned eGwD where for top end players.. It where not like now, player enter dungeon, give middle finger to monsters and with couple slaps beat them all.


For you sounds like nonsense.. But that how it where.. And by the way in first 20 days no one had 3k GS.. :P


Now just for fun,, try squeeze out 8k power, decent crit, yet have decent life steal/def and deflect rates. without boons, and mounts+insignias and companions rank 12 bonding runes.

mousebreaker85

Lol try playing TR with stealth that lasts 3secs that everything can see through anyway squishy enough to get one shot by trash mobs and cc well none except dazes that don't work anyways then be the master of single target damage to have a Dc CW and GWF outdamage you by 100 mill .
...it's rough all over

hadestemplar

mousebreaker85#4641 said:

Lol try playing TR with stealth that lasts 3secs that everything can see through anyway squishy enough to get one shot by trash mobs and cc well none except dazes that don't work anyways then be the master of single target damage to have a Dc CW and GWF outdamage you by 100 mill .

...it's rough all over

Outdamaged. But how do u measured? by the paingiving/execution table score in the end of dungeon?
Here then funny example,, I with low dmg temploc, use Tyranical curse> PoP > HG/WB >DT and Paingiving numbers start to fly. Yet I haven't killed any monsters, even trash ones.. Now add lightning enchant, and in couple minutes I can build up insane paingiving scores, yet kill 0 monsters. That indicators evaluation is total HAMSTER.

Also I have met TR's who are not even top end geared, yet easily take CN bosses. And if there is tank within group, than Orcus die very very very >very< fast. Also TR"s proves it's values in eDemo fights, dragon flights and so one.

As for stealth, u joking right? 3s?.... Last time I so TR in action he could troll opposite faction in dvarven valley via stealth mode almost all his fight time.. And unlike others he don't spam at wills from stealth to reveal his presence. He wait, and strike in right time.
If you think players just watch how they HP falling down, and don't do anything. Then u play wrong game If your HP dropping, so obviously u receiving hits, no visible enemy = stealth TR is here= dodging/artifacts/counter attacks, or tactical tricks will be applyed rather sit and wait till TR kill u.

Anyways,, Since u mentioned.. Well Perhaps I should restart my TR.. Even I hate this class by default...

mousebreaker85

@bloodyspamer
No paingiver is inaccurate and only measures who was faster it's not an accurate measure we use a program called ACT -advanced combat tracker

Yes at the level you are talking about CN and edemo -low end content .
It's a pretty even field and anyone can come out on top.
A lot of times you may see someone with 2500 gear score that could have rank12 bonded companions which would destroy someone with a 3500 gear score without. We are speaking of FBI ,MSVA,SPC level content where a TR will Never keep up with a CW or GWF of equal gear and skill.

And as far as stealth you are talking pvp builds - in pvp yes TR still can troll with the best of them and as long as they aren't hitting or damaging mobs stealth can last .
In pvp against players things work much diff.
In pve if you HAMSTER it will knock you outta stealth.besides bosses and most endgame mobs can see through stealth it also does not reset Aggro.

I am at a BiS level and can go in random pugs and smash it.
Or pvp with 2 members of our guild vs 20 randoms in DV and win ..but this has to do with severely outgearing people and skill level rather than class.
And don't get me wrong I will occasionally run across someone from crusaders or lotus guilds that will kick my teeth in lol I fought a GF the other day 1v1 that had 300k health I was hitting him with 185k shocking executions ,another 70k CB and he would heal right thru it bull rush me and knock my liver out.so in pvp anyone can top anyone class only matters when you have 2people of the same gear level /skill level

TR hasn't been touched for about 6 mods now and is not competitive at end game level .
But is still mega fun to play as it's learning curve is so much greater than other classes .
I have 4 other classes at the 4K level and love TR and wouldn't give him up ever but I won't delude myself into thinking he can keep up with other classes either .so I try to spec things and play to help the group even gear and mount bonuses that help my party rather than just damage cause theirs others that can do that better..

If you doubt this....take a TR and try to get in a FBI run see if they will take you over a CW or GWF .