...or they wanted a new Universe so they can be free in their story telling for this current series.
And they made one. Starting with the Narada's attack on the Kelvin. That is onscreen canon.
Or are you expecting internal consistency in Trek? Because FC (my favorite Prime Universe movie) had that little spot of bother where Worf mentioned "Deck 26," then Picard went and said the Ent-E had 24 decks.
The Kelvin's weird warp flare thing is just an art/research error. Chill out people.
Warp pylons in the JJverse seem to be pretty heavily influenced by jet engines what with the spinny thingy on the front and the turbine-like whine they give off when they power up for warp. Heck, they even went a step further and added glittery contrails when going to warp in STID. With that in mind I think it seems in line with the design logic for the Kelvin verse for the Warp pylons to have an afterburner sort of thing built into it. It just seems consistent with the design aesthetic they were angling for. Considering how front and center it is in that scene and the detail they put into animating it, I think it's a far cry simple errors like FX artists having phasers fire from parts of the ship that aren't supposed to have emitters or writers forgetting to check how many decks a given ship has when writing dialogue for a scene. It seems more like the sort of design choice that led to klingons having ridges IMO.
My only 2 issues with the new Star Trek movies are this. 1) Sure they look like Star Trek, Sure they have the same characters we see in the Original Series, Or The Prime Universe, as some people have come to call it, but they have the action punch of a Star Wars Movie. 2) While these movies have the punch of an action movie, They have lost they're moral soul. The Original series, Next Gen, and the first 10 films, all had a moral that was based on events, in the real world. for example, Star Trek VI The Undiscovered Country, was based on the Events of The Gulf War, and the over throwing of Saddam Hussein and the people of Iraq, being scared of freedom, True freedom, and being frightened of change. Another example of this, goes all the way back to the Original Series episode, "The Way To Eden" Which involves a 23rd Century version of the Hippy Movement. I grew up watching syndicated reruns of the Original Series. sadly i was born a year after the show was canceled. My love for Trek was the fact that what i saw on screen, Was a future i wanted to be a part of. No hunger, no war, No disease. No racial or sexual orientation issues, everyone striving to better themselves as a whole, and not who has the most of this, or the best of that. Or what monopoly makes the most money. I do not hate the New Star Trek movies, I will always love the Original Series for what i just mentioned above, However the new movies are fun to watch, and enjoyable as a movie, and for all the haters out there...
I have 2 things for you. 1) Don't hate on someone, because they have a preference, everyone is entitled, to an opinion. 2) The new Star Wars is set for new audiences, and a younger generation, sure it may have had some of the original cast back, but it was a new gen movie, a passing of the torch of sorts. Everyone i spoke to Love it. LOVED IT!. Old fans and New ones alike. You don't see people fighting over who's Star Wars is who's, and yes i did enjoy the new Star Wars as well. People just need to grow up, and stop acting like 5 year old's, who have gotten they're sucker taken away from them. I will go see Star Trek Beyond when it comes out on the 22nd, so start hating me because of it. Nuff Said.
I despise TFA, mostly because it's a straight up rip off of ANH, but also because it's creation means my preferred Star Wars universe, the old EU, will never have any of it's dangling threads concluded. I defend the JJ-Trek movies, but when it comes to star wars and TFA I'm just as hateful as those that claim Trek '09 isn't canon.
In my star wars headcanon, the old EU stories aren't "Legends", rather they are the only true story, and TFA is just an overbudgeted fan fiction. So now you can say you've talked to a hardcore star wars fan who most certainly does NOT love TFA.
"Legends" is an alt-U. Wait no.... it's a mountain of string after a thousand cats got done playing with it.
THESE things are the source material for everything else called "Star Trek". No time period will EVER supersede the adventures of the USS Enterprise in the 23rd century.
My only 2 issues with the new Star Trek movies are this. 1) Sure they look like Star Trek, Sure they have the same characters we see in the Original Series, Or The Prime Universe, as some people have come to call it, but they have the action punch of a Star Wars Movie. 2) While these movies have the punch of an action movie, They have lost they're moral soul. The Original series, Next Gen, and the first 10 films, all had a moral that was based on events, in the real world. for example, Star Trek VI The Undiscovered Country, was based on the Events of The Gulf War, and the over throwing of Saddam Hussein and the people of Iraq, being scared of freedom, True freedom, and being frightened of change. Another example of this, goes all the way back to the Original Series episode, "The Way To Eden" Which involves a 23rd Century version of the Hippy Movement. I grew up watching syndicated reruns of the Original Series. sadly i was born a year after the show was canceled. My love for Trek was the fact that what i saw on screen, Was a future i wanted to be a part of. No hunger, no war, No disease. No racial or sexual orientation issues, everyone striving to better themselves as a whole, and not who has the most of this, or the best of that. Or what monopoly makes the most money. I do not hate the New Star Trek movies, I will always love the Original Series for what i just mentioned above, However the new movies are fun to watch, and enjoyable as a movie, and for all the haters out there...
I have 2 things for you. 1) Don't hate on someone, because they have a preference, everyone is entitled, to an opinion. 2) The new Star Wars is set for new audiences, and a younger generation, sure it may have had some of the original cast back, but it was a new gen movie, a passing of the torch of sorts. Everyone i spoke to Love it. LOVED IT!. Old fans and New ones alike. You don't see people fighting over who's Star Wars is who's, and yes i did enjoy the new Star Wars as well. People just need to grow up, and stop acting like 5 year old's, who have gotten they're sucker taken away from them. I will go see Star Trek Beyond when it comes out on the 22nd, so start hating me because of it. Nuff Said.
I despise TFA, mostly because it's a straight up rip off of ANH, but also because it's creation means my preferred Star Wars universe, the old EU, will never have any of it's dangling threads concluded. I defend the JJ-Trek movies, but when it comes to star wars and TFA I'm just as hateful as those that claim Trek '09 isn't canon.
In my star wars headcanon, the old EU stories aren't "Legends", rather they are the only true story, and TFA is just an overbudgeted fan fiction. So now you can say you've talked to a hardcore star wars fan who most certainly does NOT love TFA.
Make that two of them.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
It's only slightly bigger than the TOS Constitution. And it's aesthetics are more similar to ENT than anything post TOS.
And all their points have been adressed above.
How exactly? Engineering looks like a factory, which is more in line with NuTrek Enterprise's brewery, and while the NX was utilitarian, Engineering was pretty compact and clearly laid out compared to whatever that mess was. Likewise, the bridge has the window/viewscreen combo which is unique to the NuTrek timeline, and does not exist in either ENT or TOS-onwards. Likewise, it uses pulse weapons despite them becoming obsolete in ENT era..something like 80 earlier...and only coming back in Wrath of Khan(briefly) yet fit in pretty well with NuTrek Enterprise's armament. The Nacelle-mounted impulse engine and cavernous hanger stuffed with shuttles (essentially runabouts) are also design sensibilities that are more at home with Nutrek than alongside either ENT or TOS.
What exactly in Starfleet isn't bigger than? The Saladin? Daedalus? Both of those are even smaller. Heck, the cutting edge ship that eventually replaced it, the excelsior-is still smaller than it and undergunned by comparison. One of the explanations given as to why NuTrek has such large ships and are so heavily armed compared to prime-verse counterparts is that the destruction of the Kelvin convinced starfleet to heavily militarize-yet the Kelvin itself wouldn't look out of place in post-Kelvin, where the same cannot be said of it when placed alongside its supposed primeverse contemporaries.
It looks like a factory and? What? It may not resemble ENT engineering but neither does TOS', a small cardboard room with four consoles and a grill on one wall? The window bridge appears on the Franklin which predates the NX. The weapons thing is where you're just ignoring what I'm saying be cause you don't like them. And the shuttlebay. You getting the Kelvin's shuttlebay mixed up with the AR Constitution's. The Kelvin has one of normal size.
The Kelvin is in the ballpark of 300m. That makes it the same size as the TMP Conni refit, larger than all the TOS era designs but smaller than the Excelsior. As for outgunning them, really? The Kelvin has one action scene in the entire film, getting it's ar$e handed to it by the Nerada.
you see that big red line on the kelvin's saucer? see it? that's the ship's impulse engines...they are NOT mounted on the warp nacelles - same goes with the enterprise
anyone who thinks the warp nacelles in KTTrek are also impulse engines clearly has no idea what an impulse engine looks like
Excellent point, I didn't even bother to look for the Kelvin to look at this nacelle mounted engine, but now I needn't bother.
Do you see that big white ball of light directly underneath it? That the camera zooms onto as it flares up right as the Kelvin accelerates and rams into the Narada? Because it's pretty obvious that it's functioning as an impulse engine in that scene.
For whatever reason the folks who designed the ship in the reboot decided that the conventional impulse engines on Trek ships weren't obvious enough as a source of sub-light thrust, so decided to turn the warp nacelles to that purpose too....because every single warp pylon in the new trek has that identical aperture on the back. No ships in the Primeverse have been shown to have such a feature.
So yes, the JJverse warp pylons double as impulse engines as well, as strange as that may seem.
Warp power is being diverted to the impulse engines and the warp nacelles activate (i.e. glow) when warp power is used.
Yes your very correct. As the effects shot purposely used that to show the ship to move at a faster rate of speed. Thus making this nacelle having impulse power. This is not Prime Universe Tech.
Again, prove that no other Prime Universe ship has this supposed feature.
The Franklin isn't part of the first 2 movies, until it comes out in theater. It can't be part of this. Unless they tell how hold she really is. So that part of the debate is nothing there.
You state claims, but you won't offer any evidence to back it up. So where is your proof. I showed mine going by the movies. So your refusing the back it up.
Another on the forum added something else. Reviewing that clip showed another big factor to back mine up. The Kelvin had the same type Engineering as the KT Enterprise. Where NX shows they had a better fitting engineering to match the ship. Not some vast factory where they brew. Even the TOS Connie's engineering didn't look like a brewery. Which of course that is where they filmed the shots, in a real brewery. Cause they was too cheap to create a more functional engineering like the rest of the movies and shows. This is also not part of Prime Universe, thus making it a different one.
I am aware of that, I'm also aware that it's been stated to be the first warp 4 ship, predating the NX. Believe me I see the irony of me using behind the scenes material to inform an argument about canon and that if this information is not alluded to in Beyond I will strike it, but as the Franklin is a large part of the film, its backstory will likely be important.
I don't need to back anything up, I'm refuting your statements, not making ones of my own.
The Kelvin's engineering is nowhere on the scale of the turbine control room in the AR Constitution. We see very little of it in the confusion to even understand the scale of it.
But I (funnily enough) do believe that ENT and TAR are in a separate universe but not for these silly nitpicky reasons.
...or they wanted a new Universe so they can be free in their story telling for this current series.
And they made one. Starting with the Narada's attack on the Kelvin. That is onscreen canon.
Or are you expecting internal consistency in Trek? Because FC (my favorite Prime Universe movie) had that little spot of bother where Worf mentioned "Deck 26," then Picard went and said the Ent-E had 24 decks.
The Kelvin's weird warp flare thing is just an art/research error. Chill out people.
Warp pylons in the JJverse seem to be pretty heavily influenced by jet engines what with the spinny thingy on the front and the turbine-like whine they give off when they power up for warp. Heck, they even went a step further and added glittery contrails when going to warp in STID. With that in mind I think it seems in line with the design logic for the Kelvin verse for the Warp pylons to have an afterburner sort of thing built into it. It just seems consistent with the design aesthetic they were angling for. Considering how front and center it is in that scene and the detail they put into animating it, I think it's a far cry simple errors like FX artists having phasers fire from parts of the ship that aren't supposed to have emitters or writers forgetting to check how many decks a given ship has when writing dialogue for a scene. It seems more like the sort of design choice that led to klingons having ridges IMO.
The TOS films had warp trails. The nacelles of all TMP ships onwards glow when the warp core is activated for any reason (ENT ships too). Warp power was being used to power the impulse engines, so the nacelles flared.
Besides, can you tell us what the PR ships in 2233 looked like please?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
So you're basically tossing out whatever you feel and going with your theory. EVEN THE OWN MOVIE TELLS YOU YOU'RE WRONG.
And all you say is "well can't trust the movie because reasons".
Your mad, cause I busted up JJ Spoof Trek. And you think what they say on screen is all correct. Even though the next movie will tell other wise.
How else you explain the "growing decks on the Enterprise E" ??
I'm not the one continuing to move goal posts to hold onto your precious theory to keep your precious time line separate. Hell even spock alpha(aka Lenard Nimoy) says to Kirk "Hey I'm from the future!" Not "hey I'm from an alternate universe X amount of years in the future". But let me guess, now you're going to say even Spock is wrong too.
And you tell me the truth hurts? Look in the mirror pal. You have ship designs. I have canonical PROOF saying otherwise. Sorry pal I've gone way past burden of proof, you simply dismiss the proof as you see fit and cling to your own truth.
Keep doing it now. It's comical at this point.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
They have lost they're moral soul. The Original series, Next Gen, and the first 10 films, all had a moral that was based on events, in the real world. for example, Star Trek VI The Undiscovered Country, was based on the Events of The Gulf War, and the over throwing of Saddam Hussein and the people of Iraq, being scared of freedom, True freedom, and being frightened of change.
Oh dear. Did anyone else read this and suddenly feel really, really old?
Star Trek VI was made in 1991 - about the same time as the USA and its allies had the first armed conflict with Saddam Hussein's regime; said regime would last another 12 years. The film was explicitly a parallel with the end of the standoff between NATO and the Soviet Union, effectively the last gasp of TOS' paradigm equating the Klingons with the Soviets. You make a good point about fear of change being a general theme, but the specifics of STVI - a peaceful end to decades of armed standoff - are quite rare in history.
What exactly in Starfleet isn't bigger than? The Saladin? Daedalus? Both of those are even smaller. Heck, the cutting edge ship that eventually replaced it, the excelsior-is still smaller than it and undergunned by comparison. One of the explanations given as to why NuTrek has such large ships and are so heavily armed compared to prime-verse counterparts is that the destruction of the Kelvin convinced starfleet to heavily militarize-yet the Kelvin itself wouldn't look out of place in post-Kelvin, where the same cannot be said of it when placed alongside its supposed primeverse contemporaries.
Back to the old "no new mistakes" line; the Andorian and Vulcan (pre-Federation) ships in ENT are roughly the size of the Excelsior. It's the NX-01 which is the undersized outlier, so it's entirely credible that in a parallel timeline, TNG size norms would have been in play by Kirk's era; the shipbuilding capacity clearly exists.
Or are you expecting internal consistency in Trek? Because FC (my favorite Prime Universe movie) had that little spot of bother where Worf mentioned "Deck 26," then Picard went and said the Ent-E had 24 decks.
The Kelvin's weird warp flare thing is just an art/research error. Chill out people.
Most of the tech is usually consistency on their looks. However a few things changes here and there, but that is acceptable for refits and advances.
The dialogs is the part where its most troublesome. The Enterprise E went through 3 different amount of decks. So which one is it really. Plus it don't match the ship size to keep changing it like that. This is where Spock made an error on 2009. He didn't have a full clue what happened.
And yes they wanted to create a new series for people to go and see, or not to see. Depending on how the person like it. And not having to worry about following the Prime Universe on anything. So basically making a reboot, not just on a time travel.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
I'm not the one continuing to move goal posts to hold onto your precious theory to keep your precious time line separate. Hell even spock alpha(aka Lenard Nimoy) says to Kirk "Hey I'm from the future!" Not "hey I'm from an alternate universe X amount of years in the future". But let me guess, now you're going to say even Spock is wrong too.
And you tell me the truth hurts? Look in the mirror pal. You have ship designs. I have canonical PROOF saying otherwise. Sorry pal I've gone way past burden of proof, you simply dismiss the proof as you see fit and cling to your own truth.
Keep doing it now. It's comical at this point.
Yes, Spock was incorrect. He didn't have a full clue what happened.
Bottom line, the graphics crew and writers really messed up. The graphics for not making it compatible to the Prime Universe to show it was part of it. And the Writers for not keeping it the same. Over the years they make writing mistakes.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
It is tricky to differentiate between actual movie goofs/mistakes and continuity errors that require explanation.
If in the same movie two people that know the ship mention different decks we would assume, IRL, one made a mistake. The movie however doesn't intend to, Worf and Picard know what they are saying (this is generally true for every dialogue that is not played out to intentionally be false/deceitful). Generally, characters that have no reason to do not lie on-screen. When Worf looks at the computer and says "they're on deck 26", Picard later says the Ent has 26 decks. The 24 was a human actor/movie maker error. Sometimes these errors are adressed by those responsible, for instance missing rank isnignia or the "Klingon Warbird" in ENT. When someone responsible says "this was a mistake", even though this statement is non canonical it is true and the faulty information needs to be removed from continuity. In the first case though we don't have that, so we have to assume what's "actually" true.
Now, Spock saying he's formt he future, no parallel reality he doesn't lie, it's exposition. There's no reasonf or him to make a mistake, lie or be deceitful. However, previously introduced canon hints at a parallel universe more than it does on a timeline change. No error has been made, but canon is contradicting. It's reasonable to assume the majority of canon deictates what is actually true and Spock says "reality" and not "timeline".
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
that the nacelle was 'spewing light' means absolutely nothing, because guess what? ALL starfleet ship nacelles spew light when the ship goes to warp, and in the case of the TMP era, they spew it in a trail-like exhaust pattern
Granted, it's only really my own headcanon - but considering the Kelvin was a wreck by that point I, personally, choose to beleive that the impulse engines were basically inoperable - possibly due to being locked into the autopilot, which was offline.
I therefore choose to beleive that George Kirk vented plasma (or something) to get the ship in motion.
That seems very plausible..I would imagine it might work very similar to how you'd get a stuck steam-powered ship moving (i.e. venting as much steam as possible..doubt it would work though).
Yes, Spock was incorrect. He didn't have a full clue what happened.
Going to need some citation on that one. How is it you know Spock was incorrect? After all it's younger Spock that establishes it is an alternate reality in the same film.
Which Spock is incorrect at which time in this timeline? And which timeline is the incorrect timeline?
It looks like a factory and? What? It may not resemble ENT engineering but neither does TOS', a small cardboard room with four consoles and a grill on one wall? The window bridge appears on the Franklin which predates the NX. The weapons thing is where you're just ignoring what I'm saying be cause you don't like them. And the shuttlebay. You getting the Kelvin's shuttlebay mixed up with the AR Constitution's. The Kelvin has one of normal size.
The Kelvin is in the ballpark of 300m. That makes it the same size as the TMP Conni refit, larger than all the TOS era designs but smaller than the Excelsior. As for outgunning them, really? The Kelvin has one action scene in the entire film, getting it's ar$e handed to it by the Nerada.
The Franklin hasn't been shown yet in film. So until this is shown. Then there is no evidence to back it up. So how you know it predates the NX? When there is nothing in the movies to stat it at this time.
The TOS engineering was a window with some equipment going up in a V pattern. Either one didn't have lots of pipes and looks like a brewery factory. Which the Kelvin and KT Enterprise did. This proves its part of different Universe.
Kelvin at 300 meters? This alone breaks Canon, as no other ship at the time was bigger than the Constitution. So if the Kelvin was built before the Constitution Class even came out. This alone breaks Canon. Making it not part of the Prime Universe.
The phasers was told during the TMP. They was using the warp core to run them. That is why Decker went over Kirk's order, and saved the ship. Later this would have effect as well, since it was off line during TWOK.
Warp power is being diverted to the impulse engines and the warp nacelles activate (i.e. glow) when warp power is used.
Acutally, the impulse drive is separate than Warp drive. This is why they can run a ship with warp power off line. Most Master Displays shows the 2 have no systems to feed each other, as they are totally separate. Once again, this breaks Canon and is not part of the Prime Universe. And there is no "Afterburners" functioning exhausts on the nacelles. As the movie purposely shows that in operation. Once again not part of the Prime Universe. Need proof, watch some Enterprise, TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, and their movies to go with them. Cause saying they do have it, shows you never seen any of them. And going by your quote. I don't need to back anything up.. Also proves you hadn't watched any of them. Other than 2009 and ID.
Post edited by farmallm on
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Going to need some citation on that one. How is it you know Spock was incorrect? After all it's younger Spock that establishes it is an alternate reality in the same film.
Which Spock is incorrect at which time in this timeline? And which timeline is the incorrect timeline?
Have you seen the TMP yet? To see how the TOS Constitution and TMP Constitution Refit are the same I figured you would have by now.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Going to need some citation on that one. How is it you know Spock was incorrect? After all it's younger Spock that establishes it is an alternate reality in the same film.
Which Spock is incorrect at which time in this timeline? And which timeline is the incorrect timeline?
Have you seen the TMP yet? To see how the TOS and TMP Constitution are the same? I figured you would have by now.
I can't speak for Snoggy, but I tried watching it once. Best nap I've ever had.
The Franklin hasn't been shown yet in film. So until this is shown. Then there is no evidence to back it up. So how you know it predates the NX? When there is nothing in the movies to stat it at this time.
Okay dokay, ignore the Franklin. Feel free to resurrect this after the release of Beyond though.
The TOS engineering was a window with some equipment going up in a V pattern. Either one didn't have lots of pipes and looks like a brewery factory. Which the Kelvin and KT Enterprise did. This proves its part of different Universe.
Go back and look at the Kelvin engineering section again, it's nothing like the brewery. By the way, the brewery is Turbine Control not Enginering. Engineering is the warp core room only seen in ID.
Kelvin at 300 meters? This alone breaks Canon, as no other ship at the time was bigger than the Constitution. So if the Kelvin was built before the Constitution Class even came out. This alone breaks Canon. Making it not part of the Prime Universe.
Now you're purposely being daft. That statement is complete and utter bollocks. Are you seriously suggesting, with a straight face, that a ship a few dozen metres bigger than the Constitution (one of only two TOS cruisers seen BTW other than the Bonaventure) 'breaks canon'. That is one of the stupidest statements I've ever read.
The phasers was told during the TMP. They was using the warp core to run them. That is why Decker went over Kirk's order, and saved the ship. Later this would have effect as well, since it was off line during TWOK.
The refit uses pulse phasers consistently. It's nothing to do with warp power going off line, that's something you pulled out of your ar$e.
Acutally, the impulse drive is separate than Warp drive. This is why they can run a ship with warp power off line. Most Master Displays shows the 2 have no systems to feed each other, as they are totally separate. Once again, this breaks Canon and is
not part of the Prime Universe.
Firstly, wrong. Every ship system is powered by the warp core, the fact that the have auxiliary power to work systems if the warp core goes offline doesn't change that. The Warp Core is main power.
Secondly, it doesn't break canon. How hard is it to get that? The Defiant has a cloaking device but no other Federation ship deos. By your impeccable logic that means that DS9 is in a parallel universe because the Defiant having a cloak breaks canon.
That's not me misconstruing your argument, that's me doing a word for word replacement hoping you see how daft your claim is.
And there is no "Afterburners" functioning exhausts on the nacelles. As the movie purposely shows that in operation. Once again not part of the Prime Universe. Need proof, watch some Enterprise, TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, and their movies to go with them.
I retracted that after I saw a pic of the Kelvin with its impulse engines at the back exactly where they should be. I then changed to say the nacelles glow when the warp core is activated, i.e. powering the ships thrusters and engines to set it on a collision course.
And again, that does not prove a parallel universe in the slightest. Not at all. None. No more than saying that the TOS Ent is in a different reality because it has yellow pipes on the wall. Go watch some Enterprise, TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, and their movies, do you see any yellow pipes on the walls? PROOF TOS IS A PARALLEL UNIVERSE CONFIRMED!!!
Seriously, you need to work on your concept of logic.
Cause saying they do have it, shows you never seen any of them. And going by your quote. I don't need to back anything up.. Also proves you hadn't watched any of them. Other than 2009 and ID.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Going to need some citation on that one. How is it you know Spock was incorrect? After all it's younger Spock that establishes it is an alternate reality in the same film.
Which Spock is incorrect at which time in this timeline? And which timeline is the incorrect timeline?
Have you seen the TMP yet? To see how the TOS Constitution and TMP Constitution Refit are the same I figured you would have by now.
I watch it every fourth of July. My family loves movies with whales in them. My favorite part is when Scotty talks to the computer mouse, but my dad always loved Chekov asking where the Nuclear WESSELS were.
Still, the ship Kirk captained in that one had a cloak so I didn't get to compare it to the one in Gamesters of Triskellion too well. Tonight I'm a watch the one where Bones asks the question I've always wanted to ask you: "What does God need with a Refit?"
But enough about my holiday. How's that citation coming? You get any proof that Spock was wrong? And which Spock from which timeline and which reality?
More to the point, the Spock that is wrong, does he have a goatee? That might clear all of this up for us if he does.
@artan42 would you like a wholly pop little fella?
For your heroic deeds ... I will make for you my good sir, a [Kelvin] themed foundry mission.
I know, I know, you're speechless ... just give me your dil!
@thay8472 Fine, go on then, one of those nice strawberry ones.
I'll play your mission, but not a single pink rock will grease your palm until I am suitably satisfied by the quality of the lense flares.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
It looks like a factory and? What? It may not resemble ENT engineering but neither does TOS', a small cardboard room with four consoles and a grill on one wall? The window bridge appears on the Franklin which predates the NX. The weapons thing is where you're just ignoring what I'm saying be cause you don't like them. And the shuttlebay. You getting the Kelvin's shuttlebay mixed up with the AR Constitution's. The Kelvin has one of normal size.
The Kelvin is in the ballpark of 300m. That makes it the same size as the TMP Conni refit, larger than all the TOS era designs but smaller than the Excelsior. As for outgunning them, really? The Kelvin has one action scene in the entire film, getting it's ar$e handed to it by the Nerada.
The point is that it doesn't resemble the engineering of the NX or the TOS connie, but instead looks much like the KT engine room. Kelvin's shuttlebay is noticeably bigger than that of the TOS connie, have you watched that scene? TOS connie could only fit two shuttles side by side, and not comfortably. Even after the refit it wasn't something you'd fit six runabouts in. TOS shuttles were tiny.
Try again, the ship was scaled to 457 meters long...and was originally scaled to be 655 meters long. By either of those measurements, it's huge compared to the TOS ships.
The Kelvin has something like four beam turrets on the top side of its saucer alone. And those rapid fire weapons? I did some reading, and guess what...I was wrong they aren't pulse phasers or plasma cannons. They are actually supposed to be torpedo launchers. Considering the TOS connie only had the two forward firing ones...yeah...that's a sizable armament increase over the TOS connie.
So not only is the Kelvin noticeably longer, but also much more heavily armed.
Warp power is being diverted to the impulse engines and the warp nacelles activate (i.e. glow) when warp power is used.
And why must this be the case? The chain of events seems pretty clearly designed to show that the warp pylon itself is supplying thrust. When Warp pylons power up for warp in the Primeverse, they don't vent fire out the back like an afterburner. No trek ship in the primeverse does that, to my knowledge. Neither do they do the warp charge up glow when doing sublight maneuvers like you are stating is happening in this scene. Lastly, impulse engines are fusion powered, and don't work in conjunction with the warp pylons (in the primeverse, at least)
I am aware of that, I'm also aware that it's been stated to be the first warp 4 ship, predating the NX. Believe me I see the irony of me using behind the scenes material to inform an argument about canon and that if this information is not alluded to in Beyond I will strike it, but as the Franklin is a large part of the film, its backstory will likely be important.
I don't need to back anything up, I'm refuting your statements, not making ones of my own.
The Kelvin's engineering is nowhere on the scale of the turbine control room in the AR Constitution. We see very little of it in the confusion to even understand the scale of it.
But I (funnily enough) do believe that ENT and TAR are in a separate universe but not for these silly nitpicky reasons.
If the argument being made is that the KT is either a alt universe or a reboot setting rather than an alt timeline diverging at the Kelvin incident, then the fact that the Franklin takes design cues from the JJverse instead of Primeverse ships like the NX, Daedalus etc. is a point in its favor because it demonstrates that the design aesthetic and sensibilities predates the Kelvin incident.
The TOS films had warp trails. The nacelles of all TMP ships onwards glow when the warp core is activated for any reason (ENT ships too). Warp power was being used to power the impulse engines, so the nacelles flared.
Besides, can you tell us what the PR ships in 2233 looked like please?
They exhibit blurring/stretching effect which is completely different from the afterburner effect that the Kelvin demonstrates and don't trail drifting clouds of glittering exhaust either (except in Nemesis, but Nemesis has its own continuity problems) continuity across Nine out of ten prime-verse films and all of the primeverse shows is a pretty consistent record. KT has a 50-50 record on the exhaust trail so far.
Warp power isn't used for impulse power. Impulse engines are fusion powered.
We know what KT ships looked like before the KT event (Franklin), during (Kelvin) and after, and they are surprisingly consistent...with themselves.
By contrast, the Daedalus was in operation roughly a decade after the second NX class was launched, and may have been active earlier. Which shows that the ENT design sensibilities were not active for the majority of the timeframe between TOS and ENT.
The point is that it doesn't resemble the engineering of the NX or the TOS connie, but instead looks much like the KT engine room. Kelvin's shuttlebay is noticeably bigger than that of the TOS connie, have you watched that scene? TOS connie could only fit two shuttles side by side, and not comfortably. Even after the refit it wasn't something you'd fit six runabouts in. TOS shuttles were tiny.
Yes. And? The Galaxy hangar looks nothing like the Defiant shuttlebay. They're different ships, just like the Kelvin and TOS Conni.
Try again, the ship was scaled to 457 meters long...and was originally scaled to be 655 meters long. By either of those measurements, it's huge compared to the TOS ships.
Nope. It's about 300m based on the prominent window, the person flying past the turrets and the correctly sized shuttlebay.
The Kelvin has something like four beam turrets on the top side of its saucer alone. And those rapid fire weapons? I did some reading, and guess what...I was wrong they aren't pulse phasers or plasma cannons. They are actually supposed to be torpedo launchers. Considering the TOS connie only had the two forward firing ones...yeah...that's a sizable armament increase over the TOS connie.
And the Excelsior has more than the Conni. Different ships have different amounts of weapons. That's not news to anybody.
If the argument being made is that the KT is either a alt universe or a reboot setting rather than an alt timeline diverging at the Kelvin incident, then the fact that the Franklin takes design cues from the JJverse instead of Primeverse ships like the NX, Daedalus etc. is a point in its favor because it demonstrates that the design aesthetic and sensibilities predates the Kelvin incident.
Really? Because the Franklin predates the NX. A ship shown on Marcus' desk looking identical to the version from ENT. So you're saying only the Franklin and Kelvin were affected by this magical retcon but not the NX or NC or any of the other ENT era ships other than the Franklin?
They exhibit blurring/stretching effect which is completely different from the afterburner effect that the Kelvin demonstrates and don't trail drifting clouds of glittering exhaust either (except in Nemesis, but Nemesis has its own continuity problems) continuity across Nine out of ten prime-verse films and all of the primeverse shows is a pretty consistent record. KT has a 50-50 record on the exhaust trail so far.
Really? How many of those ships have the Kelvin style nacelles? None, so how do you know what they would look like when flaring?
We know what KT ships looked like before the KT event (Franklin), during (Kelvin) and after, and they are surprisingly consistent...with themselves.
The KT is after the attack on the Kelvin, hence the name. The Franklin and Kelvin (and possibly the Newton, Armstrong, and Mayflower) predate the KT as the name suggests.
By contrast, the Daedalus was in operation roughly a decade after the second NX class was launched, and may have been active earlier. Which shows that the ENT design sensibilities were not active for the majority of the timeframe between TOS and ENT.
Well obviously the Daedalus and NX are from different universes to each other. I mean that's how you get around completely different appearances right? It couldn't be that vastly differing designs could coexist in the same time period right?
In a period with room for the shockingly different NX and Daedalus there is room for the shockingly different Conni and Kelvin.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
All Trek films have very different feels than the show to which they are attached save one. Generations is the only Trek film that feels like the show it spun off from.
Which gives it the problem of charging feature-film prices for a middling TNG two-parter. I'd rather have Unification.
There's now four different natures of work around the Kirk and Co. characters, all of which have very different feels. The show is a sometimes-cerebral space Western of drastically varying qualities, the first film is 2001 with better effects and a slightly more coherent plot but less good music, the other five original cast films are an opus to the idea of growing old and the responses different people have to it, and the reboot films are decent-to-good action flicks.
There is no specific element that binds them all together, and the reboot films are not the odd man out of a set. There is no set.
Mayflower. Gods know why it's bigger there than when it was in Spacedock but that's the Mayflower.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
and tell me what [Kelvin] Starship class the giant saucer that scratches the Enterprise came from.
I need to know so I can bug Cryptic for it so I can store my ingame marmite supplies on.
Aha! See! The JJ-Prise can't possibly be over 700 meters long!
It it was then the Mayflower would be the size of the Vengeance despite being smaller than the Kelvin which is smaller than the Enterprise. So the Mayflower would simultaneously be bigger and smaller than the Enterprise and Vengeance at the same time .
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Yes. And? The Galaxy hangar looks nothing like the Defiant shuttlebay. They're different ships, just like the Kelvin and TOS Conni.
Too bad I wasn't talking about the appearance of the hangerbay, I was talking about the size. Which is noticably much larger on the Kelvin. Though the Kelvin's engineering still looks a heck of a lot more like that of the KT ENT than it does the TOS Engineering. Engineering on the Defiant and the Galaxy actually looks very similar.
Nope. It's about 300m based on the prominent window, the person flying past the turrets and the correctly sized shuttlebay.
Blueray says otherwise. I'd be interested in seeing these supposed measurements you made, considering the creators of the movie itself apparently thought otherwise.
And the Excelsior has more than the Conni. Different ships have different amounts of weapons. That's not news to anybody.
The excelsior and ENT Prime have two forward firing torpedo launchers. The Kelvin has triple that in rapid fire torpedo turrets on the top of its saucer alone. That's a pretty hefty upgrade over what's supposed to be the top of the line ship in starfleet decades later. It's not just 'different' its a completely incongruous arsenal.
Really? Because the Franklin predates the NX. A ship shown on Marcus' desk looking identical to the version from ENT. So you're saying only the Franklin and Kelvin were affected by this magical retcon but not the NX or NC or any of the other ENT era ships other than the Franklin?
He also has a model of his top secret superweapon right next to it. If we are going to count Easter eggs as canon, then I suppose R2D2 is part of Star Trek canon as well?
Really? How many of those ships have the Kelvin style nacelles? None, so how do you know what they would look like when flaring?
None, because they were not modeled after jet engines. unlike the JJverse ships like the KT ENT. I appreciate you proving my points for me, but just to remind you-my argument hinges on showing that there is a continuity of design across the reboot films before and after the Kelvin incident that is curiously absent in the Prime verse.
The KT is after the attack on the Kelvin, hence the name. The Franklin and Kelvin (and possibly the Newton, Armstrong, and Mayflower) predate the KT as the name suggests.
KT is the official name for the reboot setting, which includes all three movies. It means exactly the same thing as JJVerse, NuTrek etc. lets not split hairs. But actually addressing the point? lets do that please.
Well obviously the Daedalus and NX are from different universes to each other. I mean that's how you get around completely different appearances right? It couldn't be that vastly differing designs could coexist in the same time period right?
In a period with room for the shockingly different NX and Daedalus there is room for the shockingly different Conni and Kelvin.
Or the period of ENT-era aesthetics was relatively short lived, and gave way rather rapidly to the TOS aesthetic, because the earliest point that we know the Daedelus was active to the episode 'The Cage' was around 90 years and yet the design principles remain relatively almost unchanged. If you try and force the Kelivin into that timeframe, you end up with a period of time where those design sensibilities inexplicably vanish and get replaced with the 'giant heavily armed battleship' KT design paradigm that just as inexplicably vanishes a decade or so later before returning to TOS design sensibilities.
Go back and look at the Kelvin engineering section again, it's nothing like the brewery. By the way, the brewery is Turbine Control not Enginering. Engineering is the warp core room only seen in ID.
Still that is a lot of pipes and ladders indicating its part of the brewery they was filming out of. As of yet, I have not saw any areas of a ship with these features. As they build the set to kinda "fit" inside the ship. Making sure it look like it belongs there. Going by this, still makes it not from Canon material. And not part of the Prime Universe.
Now you're purposely being daft. That statement is complete and utter bollocks. Are you seriously suggesting, with a straight face, that a ship a few dozen metres bigger than the Constitution (one of only two TOS cruisers seen BTW other than the Bonaventure) 'breaks canon'. That is one of the stupidest statements I've ever read.
Going by the design of the Kelvin, it matches more to the KT Enterprise instead of known Canon. So this proves its still not of the Prime Universe. Saying it belongs in the Prime is totally nonsense. Anyone who knows Star Trek knows it don't belong and easy to spot.
The refit uses pulse phasers consistently. It's nothing to do with warp power going off line.
Once again, go watch the The Motion Picture. Then get back with me. This statement proves you never saw it.
Firstly, wrong. Every ship system is powered by the warp core, the fact that the have auxiliary power to work systems if the warp core goes offline doesn't change that. The Warp Core is main power.
Secondly, it doesn't break canon. How hard is it to get that? The Defiant has a cloaking device but no other Federation ship deos. By your impeccable logic that means that DS9 is in a parallel universe because the Defiant having a cloak breaks canon.
A - The impulse drive is separate from Warp Drive. With the Warp Core off line the engines will still function. This is also shown with The Motion Picture, TWOK, and many other times. As they left with the Warp Core not fully functional. Both Voyager and Enterprise E lost their core completely. They still had impulse power. Showing its not part of it. Saying its powered by the Warp Core is showing you don't know the ships. Other systems are not all powered by the Warp Core. They have batteries and other ways to power systems. Once again if only powered by the Warp Core, all systems will be gone until fixed. Which means the crew will be in EV suits until repaired or they will be dead.
Propulsion system used aboard spacecraft for travel at subwarp speeds, employing traditional Newtonian action-reaction thrust physics. Full impulse speed is about one-quarter light speed, sufficient for interplanetary travel. Aboard Federation starships, fusion reactors power the engines using deuterium fuel to create helium plasma. Overload of an impulse engine on the damaged U.S.S Constellation, a Constitution-class starship, was once rated at 97.835 megatons. - See more at: http://www.startrek.com/database_article/impulse-drive#sthash.wOJI40gl.dpuf Here is from Star Trek own site telling about Impulse Drive. Note - Nothing told about the Warp Core powering it.
B - The Defiant didn't break Canon, cause it was made with a deal with the Romulans.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Comments
Warp pylons in the JJverse seem to be pretty heavily influenced by jet engines what with the spinny thingy on the front and the turbine-like whine they give off when they power up for warp. Heck, they even went a step further and added glittery contrails when going to warp in STID. With that in mind I think it seems in line with the design logic for the Kelvin verse for the Warp pylons to have an afterburner sort of thing built into it. It just seems consistent with the design aesthetic they were angling for. Considering how front and center it is in that scene and the detail they put into animating it, I think it's a far cry simple errors like FX artists having phasers fire from parts of the ship that aren't supposed to have emitters or writers forgetting to check how many decks a given ship has when writing dialogue for a scene. It seems more like the sort of design choice that led to klingons having ridges IMO.
My character Tsin'xing
Because they are from the SOURCE MATERIAL. Not that TNG, Voyager, DS9 bullchip tossing contest.
Kirk and Spock, Scotty, Uhura, Chekov, and Sulu are Star Trek. The Constitution Class is Star Trek.
THESE things are the source material for everything else called "Star Trek". No time period will EVER supersede the adventures of the USS Enterprise in the 23rd century.
That's why NuTrek is better than TNG and its spinoffs. It's guns blasting killing bad guys to get the sexy girl with a lesson in morals along the way; to win the prize and become a better person.
Also, the inability to move forward in life leads to stagnation and death. Accept the facts. Star Trek is Star Trek.
Make that two of them.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
It looks like a factory and? What? It may not resemble ENT engineering but neither does TOS', a small cardboard room with four consoles and a grill on one wall? The window bridge appears on the Franklin which predates the NX. The weapons thing is where you're just ignoring what I'm saying be cause you don't like them. And the shuttlebay. You getting the Kelvin's shuttlebay mixed up with the AR Constitution's. The Kelvin has one of normal size.
The Kelvin is in the ballpark of 300m. That makes it the same size as the TMP Conni refit, larger than all the TOS era designs but smaller than the Excelsior. As for outgunning them, really? The Kelvin has one action scene in the entire film, getting it's ar$e handed to it by the Nerada.
Excellent point, I didn't even bother to look for the Kelvin to look at this nacelle mounted engine, but now I needn't bother.
Warp power is being diverted to the impulse engines and the warp nacelles activate (i.e. glow) when warp power is used.
Again, prove that no other Prime Universe ship has this supposed feature.
I am aware of that, I'm also aware that it's been stated to be the first warp 4 ship, predating the NX. Believe me I see the irony of me using behind the scenes material to inform an argument about canon and that if this information is not alluded to in Beyond I will strike it, but as the Franklin is a large part of the film, its backstory will likely be important.
I don't need to back anything up, I'm refuting your statements, not making ones of my own.
The Kelvin's engineering is nowhere on the scale of the turbine control room in the AR Constitution. We see very little of it in the confusion to even understand the scale of it.
But I (funnily enough) do believe that ENT and TAR are in a separate universe but not for these silly nitpicky reasons.
The TOS films had warp trails. The nacelles of all TMP ships onwards glow when the warp core is activated for any reason (ENT ships too). Warp power was being used to power the impulse engines, so the nacelles flared.
Besides, can you tell us what the PR ships in 2233 looked like please?
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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I'm not the one continuing to move goal posts to hold onto your precious theory to keep your precious time line separate. Hell even spock alpha(aka Lenard Nimoy) says to Kirk "Hey I'm from the future!" Not "hey I'm from an alternate universe X amount of years in the future". But let me guess, now you're going to say even Spock is wrong too.
And you tell me the truth hurts? Look in the mirror pal. You have ship designs. I have canonical PROOF saying otherwise. Sorry pal I've gone way past burden of proof, you simply dismiss the proof as you see fit and cling to your own truth.
Keep doing it now. It's comical at this point.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Oh dear. Did anyone else read this and suddenly feel really, really old?
Star Trek VI was made in 1991 - about the same time as the USA and its allies had the first armed conflict with Saddam Hussein's regime; said regime would last another 12 years. The film was explicitly a parallel with the end of the standoff between NATO and the Soviet Union, effectively the last gasp of TOS' paradigm equating the Klingons with the Soviets. You make a good point about fear of change being a general theme, but the specifics of STVI - a peaceful end to decades of armed standoff - are quite rare in history.
Back to the old "no new mistakes" line; the Andorian and Vulcan (pre-Federation) ships in ENT are roughly the size of the Excelsior. It's the NX-01 which is the undersized outlier, so it's entirely credible that in a parallel timeline, TNG size norms would have been in play by Kirk's era; the shipbuilding capacity clearly exists.
Most of the tech is usually consistency on their looks. However a few things changes here and there, but that is acceptable for refits and advances.
The dialogs is the part where its most troublesome. The Enterprise E went through 3 different amount of decks. So which one is it really. Plus it don't match the ship size to keep changing it like that. This is where Spock made an error on 2009. He didn't have a full clue what happened.
And yes they wanted to create a new series for people to go and see, or not to see. Depending on how the person like it. And not having to worry about following the Prime Universe on anything. So basically making a reboot, not just on a time travel.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Yes, Spock was incorrect. He didn't have a full clue what happened.
Bottom line, the graphics crew and writers really messed up. The graphics for not making it compatible to the Prime Universe to show it was part of it. And the Writers for not keeping it the same. Over the years they make writing mistakes.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
If in the same movie two people that know the ship mention different decks we would assume, IRL, one made a mistake. The movie however doesn't intend to, Worf and Picard know what they are saying (this is generally true for every dialogue that is not played out to intentionally be false/deceitful). Generally, characters that have no reason to do not lie on-screen. When Worf looks at the computer and says "they're on deck 26", Picard later says the Ent has 26 decks. The 24 was a human actor/movie maker error. Sometimes these errors are adressed by those responsible, for instance missing rank isnignia or the "Klingon Warbird" in ENT. When someone responsible says "this was a mistake", even though this statement is non canonical it is true and the faulty information needs to be removed from continuity. In the first case though we don't have that, so we have to assume what's "actually" true.
Now, Spock saying he's formt he future, no parallel reality he doesn't lie, it's exposition. There's no reasonf or him to make a mistake, lie or be deceitful. However, previously introduced canon hints at a parallel universe more than it does on a timeline change. No error has been made, but canon is contradicting. It's reasonable to assume the majority of canon deictates what is actually true and Spock says "reality" and not "timeline".
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That seems very plausible..I would imagine it might work very similar to how you'd get a stuck steam-powered ship moving (i.e. venting as much steam as possible..doubt it would work though).
Going to need some citation on that one. How is it you know Spock was incorrect? After all it's younger Spock that establishes it is an alternate reality in the same film.
Which Spock is incorrect at which time in this timeline? And which timeline is the incorrect timeline?
You're starting to remind me of this guy:
It looks like a factory and? What? It may not resemble ENT engineering but neither does TOS', a small cardboard room with four consoles and a grill on one wall? The window bridge appears on the Franklin which predates the NX. The weapons thing is where you're just ignoring what I'm saying be cause you don't like them. And the shuttlebay. You getting the Kelvin's shuttlebay mixed up with the AR Constitution's. The Kelvin has one of normal size.
The Kelvin is in the ballpark of 300m. That makes it the same size as the TMP Conni refit, larger than all the TOS era designs but smaller than the Excelsior. As for outgunning them, really? The Kelvin has one action scene in the entire film, getting it's ar$e handed to it by the Nerada.
The Franklin hasn't been shown yet in film. So until this is shown. Then there is no evidence to back it up. So how you know it predates the NX? When there is nothing in the movies to stat it at this time.
The TOS engineering was a window with some equipment going up in a V pattern. Either one didn't have lots of pipes and looks like a brewery factory. Which the Kelvin and KT Enterprise did. This proves its part of different Universe.
Kelvin at 300 meters? This alone breaks Canon, as no other ship at the time was bigger than the Constitution. So if the Kelvin was built before the Constitution Class even came out. This alone breaks Canon. Making it not part of the Prime Universe.
The phasers was told during the TMP. They was using the warp core to run them. That is why Decker went over Kirk's order, and saved the ship. Later this would have effect as well, since it was off line during TWOK.
Warp power is being diverted to the impulse engines and the warp nacelles activate (i.e. glow) when warp power is used.
Acutally, the impulse drive is separate than Warp drive. This is why they can run a ship with warp power off line. Most Master Displays shows the 2 have no systems to feed each other, as they are totally separate. Once again, this breaks Canon and is not part of the Prime Universe. And there is no "Afterburners" functioning exhausts on the nacelles. As the movie purposely shows that in operation. Once again not part of the Prime Universe. Need proof, watch some Enterprise, TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, and their movies to go with them. Cause saying they do have it, shows you never seen any of them. And going by your quote. I don't need to back anything up.. Also proves you hadn't watched any of them. Other than 2009 and ID.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Have you seen the TMP yet? To see how the TOS Constitution and TMP Constitution Refit are the same I figured you would have by now.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
I can't speak for Snoggy, but I tried watching it once. Best nap I've ever had.
Okay dokay, ignore the Franklin. Feel free to resurrect this after the release of Beyond though.
Go back and look at the Kelvin engineering section again, it's nothing like the brewery. By the way, the brewery is Turbine Control not Enginering. Engineering is the warp core room only seen in ID.
Now you're purposely being daft. That statement is complete and utter bollocks. Are you seriously suggesting, with a straight face, that a ship a few dozen metres bigger than the Constitution (one of only two TOS cruisers seen BTW other than the Bonaventure) 'breaks canon'. That is one of the stupidest statements I've ever read.
The refit uses pulse phasers consistently. It's nothing to do with warp power going off line, that's something you pulled out of your ar$e.
Firstly, wrong. Every ship system is powered by the warp core, the fact that the have auxiliary power to work systems if the warp core goes offline doesn't change that. The Warp Core is main power.
Secondly, it doesn't break canon. How hard is it to get that? The Defiant has a cloaking device but no other Federation ship deos. By your impeccable logic that means that DS9 is in a parallel universe because the Defiant having a cloak breaks canon.
That's not me misconstruing your argument, that's me doing a word for word replacement hoping you see how daft your claim is.
I retracted that after I saw a pic of the Kelvin with its impulse engines at the back exactly where they should be. I then changed to say the nacelles glow when the warp core is activated, i.e. powering the ships thrusters and engines to set it on a collision course.
And again, that does not prove a parallel universe in the slightest. Not at all. None. No more than saying that the TOS Ent is in a different reality because it has yellow pipes on the wall. Go watch some Enterprise, TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, and their movies, do you see any yellow pipes on the walls? PROOF TOS IS A PARALLEL UNIVERSE CONFIRMED!!!
Seriously, you need to work on your concept of logic.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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For your heroic deeds ... I will make for you my good sir, a [Kelvin] themed foundry mission.
I know, I know, you're speechless ... just give me your dil!
I watch it every fourth of July. My family loves movies with whales in them. My favorite part is when Scotty talks to the computer mouse, but my dad always loved Chekov asking where the Nuclear WESSELS were.
Still, the ship Kirk captained in that one had a cloak so I didn't get to compare it to the one in Gamesters of Triskellion too well. Tonight I'm a watch the one where Bones asks the question I've always wanted to ask you: "What does God need with a Refit?"
But enough about my holiday. How's that citation coming? You get any proof that Spock was wrong? And which Spock from which timeline and which reality?
More to the point, the Spock that is wrong, does he have a goatee? That might clear all of this up for us if he does.
@thay8472 Fine, go on then, one of those nice strawberry ones.
I'll play your mission, but not a single pink rock will grease your palm until I am suitably satisfied by the quality of the lense flares.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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By the time I am done, you'll be begging me for your vision back.
The point is that it doesn't resemble the engineering of the NX or the TOS connie, but instead looks much like the KT engine room. Kelvin's shuttlebay is noticeably bigger than that of the TOS connie, have you watched that scene? TOS connie could only fit two shuttles side by side, and not comfortably. Even after the refit it wasn't something you'd fit six runabouts in. TOS shuttles were tiny.
Try again, the ship was scaled to 457 meters long...and was originally scaled to be 655 meters long. By either of those measurements, it's huge compared to the TOS ships.
The Kelvin has something like four beam turrets on the top side of its saucer alone. And those rapid fire weapons? I did some reading, and guess what...I was wrong they aren't pulse phasers or plasma cannons. They are actually supposed to be torpedo launchers. Considering the TOS connie only had the two forward firing ones...yeah...that's a sizable armament increase over the TOS connie.
So not only is the Kelvin noticeably longer, but also much more heavily armed.
No idea what you are trying to say here. please rephrase.
And why must this be the case? The chain of events seems pretty clearly designed to show that the warp pylon itself is supplying thrust. When Warp pylons power up for warp in the Primeverse, they don't vent fire out the back like an afterburner. No trek ship in the primeverse does that, to my knowledge. Neither do they do the warp charge up glow when doing sublight maneuvers like you are stating is happening in this scene. Lastly, impulse engines are fusion powered, and don't work in conjunction with the warp pylons (in the primeverse, at least)
No observed star trek ships from the primeverse have this feature. Are you asking me to prove a negative?
If the argument being made is that the KT is either a alt universe or a reboot setting rather than an alt timeline diverging at the Kelvin incident, then the fact that the Franklin takes design cues from the JJverse instead of Primeverse ships like the NX, Daedalus etc. is a point in its favor because it demonstrates that the design aesthetic and sensibilities predates the Kelvin incident.
They exhibit blurring/stretching effect which is completely different from the afterburner effect that the Kelvin demonstrates and don't trail drifting clouds of glittering exhaust either (except in Nemesis, but Nemesis has its own continuity problems) continuity across Nine out of ten prime-verse films and all of the primeverse shows is a pretty consistent record. KT has a 50-50 record on the exhaust trail so far.
Warp power isn't used for impulse power. Impulse engines are fusion powered.
We know what KT ships looked like before the KT event (Franklin), during (Kelvin) and after, and they are surprisingly consistent...with themselves.
By contrast, the Daedalus was in operation roughly a decade after the second NX class was launched, and may have been active earlier. Which shows that the ENT design sensibilities were not active for the majority of the timeframe between TOS and ENT.
Yes. And? The Galaxy hangar looks nothing like the Defiant shuttlebay. They're different ships, just like the Kelvin and TOS Conni.
Nope. It's about 300m based on the prominent window, the person flying past the turrets and the correctly sized shuttlebay.
And the Excelsior has more than the Conni. Different ships have different amounts of weapons. That's not news to anybody.
That is in response to the picture of the Kelvin's impulse engines on the back of its saucer not on its nacelles.
Who said it did? I said warp power was being diverted to power the impulse engines.
I'm asking you to prove an assertion. The fact that your assertion is a negative shouldn't matter.
Really? Because the Franklin predates the NX. A ship shown on Marcus' desk looking identical to the version from ENT. So you're saying only the Franklin and Kelvin were affected by this magical retcon but not the NX or NC or any of the other ENT era ships other than the Franklin?
Really? How many of those ships have the Kelvin style nacelles? None, so how do you know what they would look like when flaring?
Everything on the ship is powered by the warp core. You're on about the auxiliary power in the impulse engines.
The KT is after the attack on the Kelvin, hence the name. The Franklin and Kelvin (and possibly the Newton, Armstrong, and Mayflower) predate the KT as the name suggests.
Well obviously the Daedalus and NX are from different universes to each other. I mean that's how you get around completely different appearances right? It couldn't be that vastly differing designs could coexist in the same time period right?
In a period with room for the shockingly different NX and Daedalus there is room for the shockingly different Conni and Kelvin.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Which gives it the problem of charging feature-film prices for a middling TNG two-parter. I'd rather have Unification.
There's now four different natures of work around the Kirk and Co. characters, all of which have very different feels. The show is a sometimes-cerebral space Western of drastically varying qualities, the first film is 2001 with better effects and a slightly more coherent plot but less good music, the other five original cast films are an opus to the idea of growing old and the responses different people have to it, and the reboot films are decent-to-good action flicks.
There is no specific element that binds them all together, and the reboot films are not the odd man out of a set. There is no set.
Watch this ...
and tell me what [Kelvin] Starship class the giant saucer that scratches the Enterprise came from.
I need to know so I can bug Cryptic for it so I can store my ingame marmite supplies on.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Aha! See! The JJ-Prise can't possibly be over 700 meters long!
It it was then the Mayflower would be the size of the Vengeance despite being smaller than the Kelvin which is smaller than the Enterprise. So the Mayflower would simultaneously be bigger and smaller than the Enterprise and Vengeance at the same time
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Too bad I wasn't talking about the appearance of the hangerbay, I was talking about the size. Which is noticably much larger on the Kelvin. Though the Kelvin's engineering still looks a heck of a lot more like that of the KT ENT than it does the TOS Engineering. Engineering on the Defiant and the Galaxy actually looks very similar.
Blueray says otherwise. I'd be interested in seeing these supposed measurements you made, considering the creators of the movie itself apparently thought otherwise.
The excelsior and ENT Prime have two forward firing torpedo launchers. The Kelvin has triple that in rapid fire torpedo turrets on the top of its saucer alone. That's a pretty hefty upgrade over what's supposed to be the top of the line ship in starfleet decades later. It's not just 'different' its a completely incongruous arsenal.
Did anyone actually claim that the red line on the back of the saucer isn't an impulse engine? I sure didn't.
Amended about the same time you were writing your reply. Regardless, a similar point was addressed in the same replay.
Asking someone to prove a negative does matter. If you can provide an example of that happening anywhere in the five series would be grand though.
He also has a model of his top secret superweapon right next to it. If we are going to count Easter eggs as canon, then I suppose R2D2 is part of Star Trek canon as well?
None, because they were not modeled after jet engines. unlike the JJverse ships like the KT ENT. I appreciate you proving my points for me, but just to remind you-my argument hinges on showing that there is a continuity of design across the reboot films before and after the Kelvin incident that is curiously absent in the Prime verse.
No. Impulse engines are powered by fusion rather than by the warp core. This is one of the points that is actually consistent across the two settings.
KT is the official name for the reboot setting, which includes all three movies. It means exactly the same thing as JJVerse, NuTrek etc. lets not split hairs. But actually addressing the point? lets do that please.
Or the period of ENT-era aesthetics was relatively short lived, and gave way rather rapidly to the TOS aesthetic, because the earliest point that we know the Daedelus was active to the episode 'The Cage' was around 90 years and yet the design principles remain relatively almost unchanged. If you try and force the Kelivin into that timeframe, you end up with a period of time where those design sensibilities inexplicably vanish and get replaced with the 'giant heavily armed battleship' KT design paradigm that just as inexplicably vanishes a decade or so later before returning to TOS design sensibilities.
Go back and look at the Kelvin engineering section again, it's nothing like the brewery. By the way, the brewery is Turbine Control not Enginering. Engineering is the warp core room only seen in ID.
Still that is a lot of pipes and ladders indicating its part of the brewery they was filming out of. As of yet, I have not saw any areas of a ship with these features. As they build the set to kinda "fit" inside the ship. Making sure it look like it belongs there. Going by this, still makes it not from Canon material. And not part of the Prime Universe.
Now you're purposely being daft. That statement is complete and utter bollocks. Are you seriously suggesting, with a straight face, that a ship a few dozen metres bigger than the Constitution (one of only two TOS cruisers seen BTW other than the Bonaventure) 'breaks canon'. That is one of the stupidest statements I've ever read.
Going by the design of the Kelvin, it matches more to the KT Enterprise instead of known Canon. So this proves its still not of the Prime Universe. Saying it belongs in the Prime is totally nonsense. Anyone who knows Star Trek knows it don't belong and easy to spot.
The refit uses pulse phasers consistently. It's nothing to do with warp power going off line.
Once again, go watch the The Motion Picture. Then get back with me. This statement proves you never saw it.
Firstly, wrong. Every ship system is powered by the warp core, the fact that the have auxiliary power to work systems if the warp core goes offline doesn't change that. The Warp Core is main power.
Secondly, it doesn't break canon. How hard is it to get that? The Defiant has a cloaking device but no other Federation ship deos. By your impeccable logic that means that DS9 is in a parallel universe because the Defiant having a cloak breaks canon.
A - The impulse drive is separate from Warp Drive. With the Warp Core off line the engines will still function. This is also shown with The Motion Picture, TWOK, and many other times. As they left with the Warp Core not fully functional. Both Voyager and Enterprise E lost their core completely. They still had impulse power. Showing its not part of it. Saying its powered by the Warp Core is showing you don't know the ships. Other systems are not all powered by the Warp Core. They have batteries and other ways to power systems. Once again if only powered by the Warp Core, all systems will be gone until fixed. Which means the crew will be in EV suits until repaired or they will be dead.
Propulsion system used aboard spacecraft for travel at subwarp speeds, employing traditional Newtonian action-reaction thrust physics. Full impulse speed is about one-quarter light speed, sufficient for interplanetary travel. Aboard Federation starships, fusion reactors power the engines using deuterium fuel to create helium plasma. Overload of an impulse engine on the damaged U.S.S Constellation, a Constitution-class starship, was once rated at 97.835 megatons. - See more at: http://www.startrek.com/database_article/impulse-drive#sthash.wOJI40gl.dpuf Here is from Star Trek own site telling about Impulse Drive. Note - Nothing told about the Warp Core powering it.
B - The Defiant didn't break Canon, cause it was made with a deal with the Romulans.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.