Going to need some citation on that one. How is it you know Spock was incorrect? After all it's younger Spock that establishes it is an alternate reality in the same film.
Which Spock is incorrect at which time in this timeline? And which timeline is the incorrect timeline?
Have you seen the TMP yet? To see how the TOS Constitution and TMP Constitution Refit are the same I figured you would have by now.
I watch it every fourth of July. My family loves movies with whales in them. My favorite part is when Scotty talks to the computer mouse, but my dad always loved Chekov asking where the Nuclear WESSELS were.
Still, the ship Kirk captained in that one had a cloak so I didn't get to compare it to the one in Gamesters of Triskellion too well. Tonight I'm a watch the one where Bones asks the question I've always wanted to ask you: "What does God need with a Refit?"
But enough about my holiday. How's that citation coming? You get any proof that Spock was wrong? And which Spock from which timeline and which reality?
More to the point, the Spock that is wrong, does he have a goatee? That might clear all of this up for us if he does.
@artan42 would you like a wholly pop little fella?
For your heroic deeds ... I will make for you my good sir, a [Kelvin] themed foundry mission.
I know, I know, you're speechless ... just give me your dil!
@thay8472 Fine, go on then, one of those nice strawberry ones.
I'll play your mission, but not a single pink rock will grease your palm until I am suitably satisfied by the quality of the lense flares.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
It looks like a factory and? What? It may not resemble ENT engineering but neither does TOS', a small cardboard room with four consoles and a grill on one wall? The window bridge appears on the Franklin which predates the NX. The weapons thing is where you're just ignoring what I'm saying be cause you don't like them. And the shuttlebay. You getting the Kelvin's shuttlebay mixed up with the AR Constitution's. The Kelvin has one of normal size.
The Kelvin is in the ballpark of 300m. That makes it the same size as the TMP Conni refit, larger than all the TOS era designs but smaller than the Excelsior. As for outgunning them, really? The Kelvin has one action scene in the entire film, getting it's ar$e handed to it by the Nerada.
The point is that it doesn't resemble the engineering of the NX or the TOS connie, but instead looks much like the KT engine room. Kelvin's shuttlebay is noticeably bigger than that of the TOS connie, have you watched that scene? TOS connie could only fit two shuttles side by side, and not comfortably. Even after the refit it wasn't something you'd fit six runabouts in. TOS shuttles were tiny.
Try again, the ship was scaled to 457 meters long...and was originally scaled to be 655 meters long. By either of those measurements, it's huge compared to the TOS ships.
The Kelvin has something like four beam turrets on the top side of its saucer alone. And those rapid fire weapons? I did some reading, and guess what...I was wrong they aren't pulse phasers or plasma cannons. They are actually supposed to be torpedo launchers. Considering the TOS connie only had the two forward firing ones...yeah...that's a sizable armament increase over the TOS connie.
So not only is the Kelvin noticeably longer, but also much more heavily armed.
Warp power is being diverted to the impulse engines and the warp nacelles activate (i.e. glow) when warp power is used.
And why must this be the case? The chain of events seems pretty clearly designed to show that the warp pylon itself is supplying thrust. When Warp pylons power up for warp in the Primeverse, they don't vent fire out the back like an afterburner. No trek ship in the primeverse does that, to my knowledge. Neither do they do the warp charge up glow when doing sublight maneuvers like you are stating is happening in this scene. Lastly, impulse engines are fusion powered, and don't work in conjunction with the warp pylons (in the primeverse, at least)
I am aware of that, I'm also aware that it's been stated to be the first warp 4 ship, predating the NX. Believe me I see the irony of me using behind the scenes material to inform an argument about canon and that if this information is not alluded to in Beyond I will strike it, but as the Franklin is a large part of the film, its backstory will likely be important.
I don't need to back anything up, I'm refuting your statements, not making ones of my own.
The Kelvin's engineering is nowhere on the scale of the turbine control room in the AR Constitution. We see very little of it in the confusion to even understand the scale of it.
But I (funnily enough) do believe that ENT and TAR are in a separate universe but not for these silly nitpicky reasons.
If the argument being made is that the KT is either a alt universe or a reboot setting rather than an alt timeline diverging at the Kelvin incident, then the fact that the Franklin takes design cues from the JJverse instead of Primeverse ships like the NX, Daedalus etc. is a point in its favor because it demonstrates that the design aesthetic and sensibilities predates the Kelvin incident.
The TOS films had warp trails. The nacelles of all TMP ships onwards glow when the warp core is activated for any reason (ENT ships too). Warp power was being used to power the impulse engines, so the nacelles flared.
Besides, can you tell us what the PR ships in 2233 looked like please?
They exhibit blurring/stretching effect which is completely different from the afterburner effect that the Kelvin demonstrates and don't trail drifting clouds of glittering exhaust either (except in Nemesis, but Nemesis has its own continuity problems) continuity across Nine out of ten prime-verse films and all of the primeverse shows is a pretty consistent record. KT has a 50-50 record on the exhaust trail so far.
Warp power isn't used for impulse power. Impulse engines are fusion powered.
We know what KT ships looked like before the KT event (Franklin), during (Kelvin) and after, and they are surprisingly consistent...with themselves.
By contrast, the Daedalus was in operation roughly a decade after the second NX class was launched, and may have been active earlier. Which shows that the ENT design sensibilities were not active for the majority of the timeframe between TOS and ENT.
The point is that it doesn't resemble the engineering of the NX or the TOS connie, but instead looks much like the KT engine room. Kelvin's shuttlebay is noticeably bigger than that of the TOS connie, have you watched that scene? TOS connie could only fit two shuttles side by side, and not comfortably. Even after the refit it wasn't something you'd fit six runabouts in. TOS shuttles were tiny.
Yes. And? The Galaxy hangar looks nothing like the Defiant shuttlebay. They're different ships, just like the Kelvin and TOS Conni.
Try again, the ship was scaled to 457 meters long...and was originally scaled to be 655 meters long. By either of those measurements, it's huge compared to the TOS ships.
Nope. It's about 300m based on the prominent window, the person flying past the turrets and the correctly sized shuttlebay.
The Kelvin has something like four beam turrets on the top side of its saucer alone. And those rapid fire weapons? I did some reading, and guess what...I was wrong they aren't pulse phasers or plasma cannons. They are actually supposed to be torpedo launchers. Considering the TOS connie only had the two forward firing ones...yeah...that's a sizable armament increase over the TOS connie.
And the Excelsior has more than the Conni. Different ships have different amounts of weapons. That's not news to anybody.
If the argument being made is that the KT is either a alt universe or a reboot setting rather than an alt timeline diverging at the Kelvin incident, then the fact that the Franklin takes design cues from the JJverse instead of Primeverse ships like the NX, Daedalus etc. is a point in its favor because it demonstrates that the design aesthetic and sensibilities predates the Kelvin incident.
Really? Because the Franklin predates the NX. A ship shown on Marcus' desk looking identical to the version from ENT. So you're saying only the Franklin and Kelvin were affected by this magical retcon but not the NX or NC or any of the other ENT era ships other than the Franklin?
They exhibit blurring/stretching effect which is completely different from the afterburner effect that the Kelvin demonstrates and don't trail drifting clouds of glittering exhaust either (except in Nemesis, but Nemesis has its own continuity problems) continuity across Nine out of ten prime-verse films and all of the primeverse shows is a pretty consistent record. KT has a 50-50 record on the exhaust trail so far.
Really? How many of those ships have the Kelvin style nacelles? None, so how do you know what they would look like when flaring?
We know what KT ships looked like before the KT event (Franklin), during (Kelvin) and after, and they are surprisingly consistent...with themselves.
The KT is after the attack on the Kelvin, hence the name. The Franklin and Kelvin (and possibly the Newton, Armstrong, and Mayflower) predate the KT as the name suggests.
By contrast, the Daedalus was in operation roughly a decade after the second NX class was launched, and may have been active earlier. Which shows that the ENT design sensibilities were not active for the majority of the timeframe between TOS and ENT.
Well obviously the Daedalus and NX are from different universes to each other. I mean that's how you get around completely different appearances right? It couldn't be that vastly differing designs could coexist in the same time period right?
In a period with room for the shockingly different NX and Daedalus there is room for the shockingly different Conni and Kelvin.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
All Trek films have very different feels than the show to which they are attached save one. Generations is the only Trek film that feels like the show it spun off from.
Which gives it the problem of charging feature-film prices for a middling TNG two-parter. I'd rather have Unification.
There's now four different natures of work around the Kirk and Co. characters, all of which have very different feels. The show is a sometimes-cerebral space Western of drastically varying qualities, the first film is 2001 with better effects and a slightly more coherent plot but less good music, the other five original cast films are an opus to the idea of growing old and the responses different people have to it, and the reboot films are decent-to-good action flicks.
There is no specific element that binds them all together, and the reboot films are not the odd man out of a set. There is no set.
Mayflower. Gods know why it's bigger there than when it was in Spacedock but that's the Mayflower.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
and tell me what [Kelvin] Starship class the giant saucer that scratches the Enterprise came from.
I need to know so I can bug Cryptic for it so I can store my ingame marmite supplies on.
Aha! See! The JJ-Prise can't possibly be over 700 meters long!
It it was then the Mayflower would be the size of the Vengeance despite being smaller than the Kelvin which is smaller than the Enterprise. So the Mayflower would simultaneously be bigger and smaller than the Enterprise and Vengeance at the same time .
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Yes. And? The Galaxy hangar looks nothing like the Defiant shuttlebay. They're different ships, just like the Kelvin and TOS Conni.
Too bad I wasn't talking about the appearance of the hangerbay, I was talking about the size. Which is noticably much larger on the Kelvin. Though the Kelvin's engineering still looks a heck of a lot more like that of the KT ENT than it does the TOS Engineering. Engineering on the Defiant and the Galaxy actually looks very similar.
Nope. It's about 300m based on the prominent window, the person flying past the turrets and the correctly sized shuttlebay.
Blueray says otherwise. I'd be interested in seeing these supposed measurements you made, considering the creators of the movie itself apparently thought otherwise.
And the Excelsior has more than the Conni. Different ships have different amounts of weapons. That's not news to anybody.
The excelsior and ENT Prime have two forward firing torpedo launchers. The Kelvin has triple that in rapid fire torpedo turrets on the top of its saucer alone. That's a pretty hefty upgrade over what's supposed to be the top of the line ship in starfleet decades later. It's not just 'different' its a completely incongruous arsenal.
Really? Because the Franklin predates the NX. A ship shown on Marcus' desk looking identical to the version from ENT. So you're saying only the Franklin and Kelvin were affected by this magical retcon but not the NX or NC or any of the other ENT era ships other than the Franklin?
He also has a model of his top secret superweapon right next to it. If we are going to count Easter eggs as canon, then I suppose R2D2 is part of Star Trek canon as well?
Really? How many of those ships have the Kelvin style nacelles? None, so how do you know what they would look like when flaring?
None, because they were not modeled after jet engines. unlike the JJverse ships like the KT ENT. I appreciate you proving my points for me, but just to remind you-my argument hinges on showing that there is a continuity of design across the reboot films before and after the Kelvin incident that is curiously absent in the Prime verse.
The KT is after the attack on the Kelvin, hence the name. The Franklin and Kelvin (and possibly the Newton, Armstrong, and Mayflower) predate the KT as the name suggests.
KT is the official name for the reboot setting, which includes all three movies. It means exactly the same thing as JJVerse, NuTrek etc. lets not split hairs. But actually addressing the point? lets do that please.
Well obviously the Daedalus and NX are from different universes to each other. I mean that's how you get around completely different appearances right? It couldn't be that vastly differing designs could coexist in the same time period right?
In a period with room for the shockingly different NX and Daedalus there is room for the shockingly different Conni and Kelvin.
Or the period of ENT-era aesthetics was relatively short lived, and gave way rather rapidly to the TOS aesthetic, because the earliest point that we know the Daedelus was active to the episode 'The Cage' was around 90 years and yet the design principles remain relatively almost unchanged. If you try and force the Kelivin into that timeframe, you end up with a period of time where those design sensibilities inexplicably vanish and get replaced with the 'giant heavily armed battleship' KT design paradigm that just as inexplicably vanishes a decade or so later before returning to TOS design sensibilities.
Go back and look at the Kelvin engineering section again, it's nothing like the brewery. By the way, the brewery is Turbine Control not Enginering. Engineering is the warp core room only seen in ID.
Still that is a lot of pipes and ladders indicating its part of the brewery they was filming out of. As of yet, I have not saw any areas of a ship with these features. As they build the set to kinda "fit" inside the ship. Making sure it look like it belongs there. Going by this, still makes it not from Canon material. And not part of the Prime Universe.
Now you're purposely being daft. That statement is complete and utter bollocks. Are you seriously suggesting, with a straight face, that a ship a few dozen metres bigger than the Constitution (one of only two TOS cruisers seen BTW other than the Bonaventure) 'breaks canon'. That is one of the stupidest statements I've ever read.
Going by the design of the Kelvin, it matches more to the KT Enterprise instead of known Canon. So this proves its still not of the Prime Universe. Saying it belongs in the Prime is totally nonsense. Anyone who knows Star Trek knows it don't belong and easy to spot.
The refit uses pulse phasers consistently. It's nothing to do with warp power going off line.
Once again, go watch the The Motion Picture. Then get back with me. This statement proves you never saw it.
Firstly, wrong. Every ship system is powered by the warp core, the fact that the have auxiliary power to work systems if the warp core goes offline doesn't change that. The Warp Core is main power.
Secondly, it doesn't break canon. How hard is it to get that? The Defiant has a cloaking device but no other Federation ship deos. By your impeccable logic that means that DS9 is in a parallel universe because the Defiant having a cloak breaks canon.
A - The impulse drive is separate from Warp Drive. With the Warp Core off line the engines will still function. This is also shown with The Motion Picture, TWOK, and many other times. As they left with the Warp Core not fully functional. Both Voyager and Enterprise E lost their core completely. They still had impulse power. Showing its not part of it. Saying its powered by the Warp Core is showing you don't know the ships. Other systems are not all powered by the Warp Core. They have batteries and other ways to power systems. Once again if only powered by the Warp Core, all systems will be gone until fixed. Which means the crew will be in EV suits until repaired or they will be dead.
Propulsion system used aboard spacecraft for travel at subwarp speeds, employing traditional Newtonian action-reaction thrust physics. Full impulse speed is about one-quarter light speed, sufficient for interplanetary travel. Aboard Federation starships, fusion reactors power the engines using deuterium fuel to create helium plasma. Overload of an impulse engine on the damaged U.S.S Constellation, a Constitution-class starship, was once rated at 97.835 megatons. - See more at: http://www.startrek.com/database_article/impulse-drive#sthash.wOJI40gl.dpuf Here is from Star Trek own site telling about Impulse Drive. Note - Nothing told about the Warp Core powering it.
B - The Defiant didn't break Canon, cause it was made with a deal with the Romulans.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
What were you lot originally arguing over? the length of the KT Enterprise ?
I think it was originally a dispute of whose head canon version of canon is most important. Now they're quibbling over the size of the bolts in the deckplates or something....
no one so far, has given me any real reason as to why these movies could make claim to the "Star Trek" honor. The first movie had music from ToS and TMP, it had References from Enterprise, it showed Tribbles, It just took a BUNCH of quotes, outside of their original context, and slapped them lazily in so we'd believe they're Star Treky.
Whilst I don't wish to enter/join the discussion pertaining the overall quality of the JJ movies I will say this; my favourite 'segment' of any of the JJ-Trek movies was the opening of the first one. They absolutely nailed it with the Kelvin backstory.
It was all there during the Kelvin story –the unknown, overwhelming mystery threat, battling against the odds and sacrifice. The music was spot on, the acting perfect – the whole thing was a true emotional rollercoaster with an absolutely heartbreaking ending. I still can’t watch what I refer to as ‘the plight of the Kelvin’ without getting a little teary-eyed.
Sadly, whilst I find the JJ-Trek movies pretty enjoyable on the whole, I don’t think they maintained the standard that they set at the beginning of the 2009 movie, with the plight of the Kelvin. THAT was true Trek in my opinion.
I know, right? I don't really get emotional at movies, but the Kelvin's Last Stand (as I call it) gets me every time. Excellent acting, and Michael Giacchino's "Labor of Love" track which is one of the best pieces of film score I've ever heard.
End result:
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
no one so far, has given me any real reason as to why these movies could make claim to the "Star Trek" honor. The first movie had music from ToS and TMP, it had References from Enterprise, it showed Tribbles, It just took a BUNCH of quotes, outside of their original context, and slapped them lazily in so we'd believe they're Star Treky.
Whilst I don't wish to enter/join the discussion pertaining the overall quality of the JJ movies I will say this; my favourite 'segment' of any of the JJ-Trek movies was the opening of the first one. They absolutely nailed it with the Kelvin backstory.
It was all there during the Kelvin story –the unknown, overwhelming mystery threat, battling against the odds and sacrifice. The music was spot on, the acting perfect – the whole thing was a true emotional rollercoaster with an absolutely heartbreaking ending. I still can’t watch what I refer to as ‘the plight of the Kelvin’ without getting a little teary-eyed.
Sadly, whilst I find the JJ-Trek movies pretty enjoyable on the whole, I don’t think they maintained the standard that they set at the beginning of the 2009 movie, with the plight of the Kelvin. THAT was true Trek in my opinion.
I know, right? I don't really get emotional at movies, but the Kelvin's Last Stand (as I call it) gets me every time. Excellent acting, and Michael Giacchino's "Labor of Love" track which is one of the best pieces of film score I've ever heard.
End result:
Here I thought I was the only one that got choked up watching that scene
What were you lot originally arguing over? the length of the KT Enterprise ?
Supposedly the JJVerse diverges from the Primeverse at the Kelvin incident. But the significant differences between the Kelvin and other ships of the same timeframe in the Primeverse bring that into question and open the possibility that the JJ verse is best defined as either having split off from the prime verse at an earlier event, residing in an alternate universe like the Mirror Universe, etc or as simply as a reboot and a setting unconnected from the Primeverse. (my personal preference)
Personal preference does not matter, the word of the franchise owner does, you go buy the franchise you can say it's whatever you want, until then the final word has already been given.
And what they say and show contradicts itself, leaving the fans to try and reconcile them. Hence the debate. We have several pages of that by now if you feel like meaningfully contributing to it. But I'm not holding my breath based off that flippant reply.
Personal preference does not matter, the word of the franchise owner does, you go buy the franchise you can say it's whatever you want, until then the final word has already been given.
If they did their job right, we wouldn't have issues cause they decided to make changes to fit their new story. Then say other wise. So to the fans who at least tries to keep up. Can point out the errors of their movies.
In this case, 2009 - Beyond is a total different Universe from the Prime. Since nothing matches up even at the Kelvin. Which was supposed to "start it". Dialog can change, which it does all the time. But hard evidence like tech, biology, etc. Well, they can't fool us on that.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Personal preference does not matter, the word of the franchise owner does, you go buy the franchise you can say it's whatever you want, until then the final word has already been given.
If they did their job right,
Yeah... by whose standards? clearly they have their own standard, which does not include writing an encyclopedia to cover every detail.
yeah, except MANY different encyclopedias have been written to cover every detail...except not a single one is canon because only stuff seen onscreen is - CBS royally shot themselves in the foot by letting what's her name say those words...if anyone in that company is intelligent and has the power to do so, they'd recant that definition and create a new canon policy, one which includes their officially-published encyclopedias, and also say that any technical data concering ships or technology that contradicts something shown onscreen overrides it - so they can set a single length for every problem ship and none of these arguments will be happening anymore
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
yeah, except MANY different encyclopedias have been written to cover every detail...except not a single one is canon because only stuff seen onscreen is - CBS royally shot themselves in the foot by letting what's her name say those words...if anyone in that company is intelligent and has the power to do so, they'd recant that definition and create a new canon policy, one which includes their officially-published encyclopedias, and also say that any technical data concering ships or technology that contradicts something shown onscreen overrides it - so they can set a single length for every problem ship and none of these arguments will be happening anymore
I suppose that would be ideal. I still have my 1994 encyclopedia. Although it would help if screenwriters and directors could be bothered to put a bit more work into making things consistent. So we didn't end up with stuff like the K'Vort/B'rel scaling issue, 80 deck tall Enterprise in ST V or this particular mess we are having around the Kelvin.
I think the main problem is that there isn't some sort of 'internal bible' of rules that are followed. I think there used to be, at least for the shows, but It often seems to have been ignored rampantly in favor of 'whatever will make a good action scene' in many of the movies.
Fans or encyclopedia writers ideally shouldn't have to cover for the mistakes of lazy screenwriters and directors. That doesn't fly for plot holes/contrivances, IMO free passes shouldn't be handed out for when they decide to TRIBBLE with continuity for a dumb action scene. changing deflector dishes to act like jet engines (STID), putting random bottomless pit on the bottom of the Ent E (Nemesis) etc.
yeah, except MANY different encyclopedias have been written to cover every detail...except not a single one is canon because only stuff seen onscreen is - CBS royally shot themselves in the foot by letting what's her name say those words...if anyone in that company is intelligent and has the power to do so, they'd recant that definition and create a new canon policy, one which includes their officially-published encyclopedias, and also say that any technical data concering ships or technology that contradicts something shown onscreen overrides it - so they can set a single length for every problem ship and none of these arguments will be happening anymore
I suppose that would be ideal. I still have my 1994 encyclopedia. Although it would help if screenwriters and directors could be bothered to put a bit more work into making things consistent. So we didn't end up with stuff like the K'Vort/B'rel scaling issue, 80 deck tall Enterprise in ST V or this particular mess we are having around the Kelvin.
I think the main problem is that there isn't some sort of 'internal bible' of rules that are followed. I think there used to be, at least for the shows, but It often seems to have been ignored rampantly in favor of 'whatever will make a good action scene' in many of the movies.
Fans or encyclopedia writers ideally shouldn't have to cover for the mistakes of lazy screenwriters and directors. That doesn't fly for plot holes/contrivances, IMO free passes shouldn't be handed out for when they decide to **** with continuity for a dumb action scene. changing deflector dishes to act like jet engines (STID), putting random bottomless pit on the bottom of the Ent E (Nemesis) etc.
You all know the Okudas are putting out a brand new revised Encyclopedia this fall right? And that's where the Kelvin Timeline naming comes from? There's an article about it on the star trek website and everything. I'm really excited to get a new encyclopedia. It's been far too long since the last revision.
What were you lot originally arguing over? the length of the KT Enterprise ?
I think it was originally a dispute of whose head canon version of canon is most important. Now they're quibbling over the size of the bolts in the deckplates or something....
This headcanon debate is super important though. Because we're crafting star trek history here!
I think the main problem is that there isn't some sort of 'internal bible' of rules that are followed. I think there used to be, at least for the shows, but It often seems to have been ignored rampantly in favor of 'whatever will make a good action scene' in many of the movies.
(...)
There was for TNG, DS9 and VOY (at least in season one). The Tech Manuals for each show written by Okuda et al were internal documents before shooting began. In my opinion this makes these works different to encyclopaedias written afterwards, retconning stuff and trying to make sense of it. But authors weren't required to stick to those, the original intend vanished a bit, but still those books are meant to describe how things in the universe was working. All works that come after the shows and illustrate this are no different from anyone else's headcanon.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Comments
I watch it every fourth of July. My family loves movies with whales in them. My favorite part is when Scotty talks to the computer mouse, but my dad always loved Chekov asking where the Nuclear WESSELS were.
Still, the ship Kirk captained in that one had a cloak so I didn't get to compare it to the one in Gamesters of Triskellion too well. Tonight I'm a watch the one where Bones asks the question I've always wanted to ask you: "What does God need with a Refit?"
But enough about my holiday. How's that citation coming? You get any proof that Spock was wrong? And which Spock from which timeline and which reality?
More to the point, the Spock that is wrong, does he have a goatee? That might clear all of this up for us if he does.
@thay8472 Fine, go on then, one of those nice strawberry ones.
I'll play your mission, but not a single pink rock will grease your palm until I am suitably satisfied by the quality of the lense flares.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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By the time I am done, you'll be begging me for your vision back.
The point is that it doesn't resemble the engineering of the NX or the TOS connie, but instead looks much like the KT engine room. Kelvin's shuttlebay is noticeably bigger than that of the TOS connie, have you watched that scene? TOS connie could only fit two shuttles side by side, and not comfortably. Even after the refit it wasn't something you'd fit six runabouts in. TOS shuttles were tiny.
Try again, the ship was scaled to 457 meters long...and was originally scaled to be 655 meters long. By either of those measurements, it's huge compared to the TOS ships.
The Kelvin has something like four beam turrets on the top side of its saucer alone. And those rapid fire weapons? I did some reading, and guess what...I was wrong they aren't pulse phasers or plasma cannons. They are actually supposed to be torpedo launchers. Considering the TOS connie only had the two forward firing ones...yeah...that's a sizable armament increase over the TOS connie.
So not only is the Kelvin noticeably longer, but also much more heavily armed.
No idea what you are trying to say here. please rephrase.
And why must this be the case? The chain of events seems pretty clearly designed to show that the warp pylon itself is supplying thrust. When Warp pylons power up for warp in the Primeverse, they don't vent fire out the back like an afterburner. No trek ship in the primeverse does that, to my knowledge. Neither do they do the warp charge up glow when doing sublight maneuvers like you are stating is happening in this scene. Lastly, impulse engines are fusion powered, and don't work in conjunction with the warp pylons (in the primeverse, at least)
No observed star trek ships from the primeverse have this feature. Are you asking me to prove a negative?
If the argument being made is that the KT is either a alt universe or a reboot setting rather than an alt timeline diverging at the Kelvin incident, then the fact that the Franklin takes design cues from the JJverse instead of Primeverse ships like the NX, Daedalus etc. is a point in its favor because it demonstrates that the design aesthetic and sensibilities predates the Kelvin incident.
They exhibit blurring/stretching effect which is completely different from the afterburner effect that the Kelvin demonstrates and don't trail drifting clouds of glittering exhaust either (except in Nemesis, but Nemesis has its own continuity problems) continuity across Nine out of ten prime-verse films and all of the primeverse shows is a pretty consistent record. KT has a 50-50 record on the exhaust trail so far.
Warp power isn't used for impulse power. Impulse engines are fusion powered.
We know what KT ships looked like before the KT event (Franklin), during (Kelvin) and after, and they are surprisingly consistent...with themselves.
By contrast, the Daedalus was in operation roughly a decade after the second NX class was launched, and may have been active earlier. Which shows that the ENT design sensibilities were not active for the majority of the timeframe between TOS and ENT.
Yes. And? The Galaxy hangar looks nothing like the Defiant shuttlebay. They're different ships, just like the Kelvin and TOS Conni.
Nope. It's about 300m based on the prominent window, the person flying past the turrets and the correctly sized shuttlebay.
And the Excelsior has more than the Conni. Different ships have different amounts of weapons. That's not news to anybody.
That is in response to the picture of the Kelvin's impulse engines on the back of its saucer not on its nacelles.
Who said it did? I said warp power was being diverted to power the impulse engines.
I'm asking you to prove an assertion. The fact that your assertion is a negative shouldn't matter.
Really? Because the Franklin predates the NX. A ship shown on Marcus' desk looking identical to the version from ENT. So you're saying only the Franklin and Kelvin were affected by this magical retcon but not the NX or NC or any of the other ENT era ships other than the Franklin?
Really? How many of those ships have the Kelvin style nacelles? None, so how do you know what they would look like when flaring?
Everything on the ship is powered by the warp core. You're on about the auxiliary power in the impulse engines.
The KT is after the attack on the Kelvin, hence the name. The Franklin and Kelvin (and possibly the Newton, Armstrong, and Mayflower) predate the KT as the name suggests.
Well obviously the Daedalus and NX are from different universes to each other. I mean that's how you get around completely different appearances right? It couldn't be that vastly differing designs could coexist in the same time period right?
In a period with room for the shockingly different NX and Daedalus there is room for the shockingly different Conni and Kelvin.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Which gives it the problem of charging feature-film prices for a middling TNG two-parter. I'd rather have Unification.
There's now four different natures of work around the Kirk and Co. characters, all of which have very different feels. The show is a sometimes-cerebral space Western of drastically varying qualities, the first film is 2001 with better effects and a slightly more coherent plot but less good music, the other five original cast films are an opus to the idea of growing old and the responses different people have to it, and the reboot films are decent-to-good action flicks.
There is no specific element that binds them all together, and the reboot films are not the odd man out of a set. There is no set.
Watch this ...
and tell me what [Kelvin] Starship class the giant saucer that scratches the Enterprise came from.
I need to know so I can bug Cryptic for it so I can store my ingame marmite supplies on.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Aha! See! The JJ-Prise can't possibly be over 700 meters long!
It it was then the Mayflower would be the size of the Vengeance despite being smaller than the Kelvin which is smaller than the Enterprise. So the Mayflower would simultaneously be bigger and smaller than the Enterprise and Vengeance at the same time
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Too bad I wasn't talking about the appearance of the hangerbay, I was talking about the size. Which is noticably much larger on the Kelvin. Though the Kelvin's engineering still looks a heck of a lot more like that of the KT ENT than it does the TOS Engineering. Engineering on the Defiant and the Galaxy actually looks very similar.
Blueray says otherwise. I'd be interested in seeing these supposed measurements you made, considering the creators of the movie itself apparently thought otherwise.
The excelsior and ENT Prime have two forward firing torpedo launchers. The Kelvin has triple that in rapid fire torpedo turrets on the top of its saucer alone. That's a pretty hefty upgrade over what's supposed to be the top of the line ship in starfleet decades later. It's not just 'different' its a completely incongruous arsenal.
Did anyone actually claim that the red line on the back of the saucer isn't an impulse engine? I sure didn't.
Amended about the same time you were writing your reply. Regardless, a similar point was addressed in the same replay.
Asking someone to prove a negative does matter. If you can provide an example of that happening anywhere in the five series would be grand though.
He also has a model of his top secret superweapon right next to it. If we are going to count Easter eggs as canon, then I suppose R2D2 is part of Star Trek canon as well?
None, because they were not modeled after jet engines. unlike the JJverse ships like the KT ENT. I appreciate you proving my points for me, but just to remind you-my argument hinges on showing that there is a continuity of design across the reboot films before and after the Kelvin incident that is curiously absent in the Prime verse.
No. Impulse engines are powered by fusion rather than by the warp core. This is one of the points that is actually consistent across the two settings.
KT is the official name for the reboot setting, which includes all three movies. It means exactly the same thing as JJVerse, NuTrek etc. lets not split hairs. But actually addressing the point? lets do that please.
Or the period of ENT-era aesthetics was relatively short lived, and gave way rather rapidly to the TOS aesthetic, because the earliest point that we know the Daedelus was active to the episode 'The Cage' was around 90 years and yet the design principles remain relatively almost unchanged. If you try and force the Kelivin into that timeframe, you end up with a period of time where those design sensibilities inexplicably vanish and get replaced with the 'giant heavily armed battleship' KT design paradigm that just as inexplicably vanishes a decade or so later before returning to TOS design sensibilities.
Go back and look at the Kelvin engineering section again, it's nothing like the brewery. By the way, the brewery is Turbine Control not Enginering. Engineering is the warp core room only seen in ID.
Still that is a lot of pipes and ladders indicating its part of the brewery they was filming out of. As of yet, I have not saw any areas of a ship with these features. As they build the set to kinda "fit" inside the ship. Making sure it look like it belongs there. Going by this, still makes it not from Canon material. And not part of the Prime Universe.
Now you're purposely being daft. That statement is complete and utter bollocks. Are you seriously suggesting, with a straight face, that a ship a few dozen metres bigger than the Constitution (one of only two TOS cruisers seen BTW other than the Bonaventure) 'breaks canon'. That is one of the stupidest statements I've ever read.
Going by the design of the Kelvin, it matches more to the KT Enterprise instead of known Canon. So this proves its still not of the Prime Universe. Saying it belongs in the Prime is totally nonsense. Anyone who knows Star Trek knows it don't belong and easy to spot.
The refit uses pulse phasers consistently. It's nothing to do with warp power going off line.
Once again, go watch the The Motion Picture. Then get back with me. This statement proves you never saw it.
Firstly, wrong. Every ship system is powered by the warp core, the fact that the have auxiliary power to work systems if the warp core goes offline doesn't change that. The Warp Core is main power.
Secondly, it doesn't break canon. How hard is it to get that? The Defiant has a cloaking device but no other Federation ship deos. By your impeccable logic that means that DS9 is in a parallel universe because the Defiant having a cloak breaks canon.
A - The impulse drive is separate from Warp Drive. With the Warp Core off line the engines will still function. This is also shown with The Motion Picture, TWOK, and many other times. As they left with the Warp Core not fully functional. Both Voyager and Enterprise E lost their core completely. They still had impulse power. Showing its not part of it. Saying its powered by the Warp Core is showing you don't know the ships. Other systems are not all powered by the Warp Core. They have batteries and other ways to power systems. Once again if only powered by the Warp Core, all systems will be gone until fixed. Which means the crew will be in EV suits until repaired or they will be dead.
Propulsion system used aboard spacecraft for travel at subwarp speeds, employing traditional Newtonian action-reaction thrust physics. Full impulse speed is about one-quarter light speed, sufficient for interplanetary travel. Aboard Federation starships, fusion reactors power the engines using deuterium fuel to create helium plasma. Overload of an impulse engine on the damaged U.S.S Constellation, a Constitution-class starship, was once rated at 97.835 megatons. - See more at: http://www.startrek.com/database_article/impulse-drive#sthash.wOJI40gl.dpuf Here is from Star Trek own site telling about Impulse Drive. Note - Nothing told about the Warp Core powering it.
B - The Defiant didn't break Canon, cause it was made with a deal with the Romulans.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
My character Tsin'xing
In this thread I haven't, but I have in several others.
I know, right? I don't really get emotional at movies, but the Kelvin's Last Stand (as I call it) gets me every time. Excellent acting, and Michael Giacchino's "Labor of Love" track which is one of the best pieces of film score I've ever heard.
End result:
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
Here I thought I was the only one that got choked up watching that scene
Supposedly the JJVerse diverges from the Primeverse at the Kelvin incident. But the significant differences between the Kelvin and other ships of the same timeframe in the Primeverse bring that into question and open the possibility that the JJ verse is best defined as either having split off from the prime verse at an earlier event, residing in an alternate universe like the Mirror Universe, etc or as simply as a reboot and a setting unconnected from the Primeverse. (my personal preference)
And what they say and show contradicts itself, leaving the fans to try and reconcile them. Hence the debate. We have several pages of that by now if you feel like meaningfully contributing to it. But I'm not holding my breath based off that flippant reply.
If they did their job right, we wouldn't have issues cause they decided to make changes to fit their new story. Then say other wise. So to the fans who at least tries to keep up. Can point out the errors of their movies.
In this case, 2009 - Beyond is a total different Universe from the Prime. Since nothing matches up even at the Kelvin. Which was supposed to "start it". Dialog can change, which it does all the time. But hard evidence like tech, biology, etc. Well, they can't fool us on that.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
My character Tsin'xing
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I suppose that would be ideal. I still have my 1994 encyclopedia. Although it would help if screenwriters and directors could be bothered to put a bit more work into making things consistent. So we didn't end up with stuff like the K'Vort/B'rel scaling issue, 80 deck tall Enterprise in ST V or this particular mess we are having around the Kelvin.
I think the main problem is that there isn't some sort of 'internal bible' of rules that are followed. I think there used to be, at least for the shows, but It often seems to have been ignored rampantly in favor of 'whatever will make a good action scene' in many of the movies.
Fans or encyclopedia writers ideally shouldn't have to cover for the mistakes of lazy screenwriters and directors. That doesn't fly for plot holes/contrivances, IMO free passes shouldn't be handed out for when they decide to TRIBBLE with continuity for a dumb action scene. changing deflector dishes to act like jet engines (STID), putting random bottomless pit on the bottom of the Ent E (Nemesis) etc.
at 28 seconds you can see the last part of the name Mayflower if you look close it says flower , so its the mayflower
You all know the Okudas are putting out a brand new revised Encyclopedia this fall right? And that's where the Kelvin Timeline naming comes from? There's an article about it on the star trek website and everything. I'm really excited to get a new encyclopedia. It's been far too long since the last revision.
This headcanon debate is super important though. Because we're crafting star trek history here!
#headcanonmatters
There was for TNG, DS9 and VOY (at least in season one). The Tech Manuals for each show written by Okuda et al were internal documents before shooting began. In my opinion this makes these works different to encyclopaedias written afterwards, retconning stuff and trying to make sense of it. But authors weren't required to stick to those, the original intend vanished a bit, but still those books are meant to describe how things in the universe was working. All works that come after the shows and illustrate this are no different from anyone else's headcanon.
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