Why do so many people believe the JJ Trek Movies are deserving of being called Trek?

sheldonlcooper

It's just playing with the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. For this to be so they would be going back originally to the prime universe - essentially time traveling. The actions they all take then create a new (indeed maybe infinite) new realities/universes which have no effect on the original prime universe. The only way any universes can access one another is by creation of planck energy (perhaps equal to the big bang) that could theoretically rip a hole in the universe and allow access to the multiverse. Any inconsistencies initially observed are caused by sloppy research and writing.

farmallm

artan42 wrote: »

The NX had a back-lit deflector.


The Franklin does.



So you're saying that you've never seen the thrusters on a nacelle before, so they don't exist unless in an alternate universe? Really?



You've just said that the NX has cannons and the Conni Refit has cannon fire. Put 'em together and you have the Kelvins weapons. It's not hard. Where do you think the Conni Refit got it's cannons from? Technology tested on the Kelvin maybe?


Ships have been built on the ground before. Also, citation needed that the prime Ent was built in space.​​

Deflector - That is why at the end of it, I said it was debatable and mentioned the NX. Showing it can go either way.

Franklin - Isn't part what started it all. They said it started with the Kelvin. Thus making that the starting point. The Franklin isn't part of this.

Exhaust ports on the nacelles - I think this is what your referring to. The NX didn't have them and none from the TOS does. Actually no Prime Universe ships showing a function exhaust port on the nacelles. As this would put the impulse engines into nacelles and not a separate unit that is proven fact. This alone makes it a different Universe. For the other part on thrusters on the nacelles. Yes they do have them. They are usually the small square places on them.

Cannon fire - No, I never said they do. I said they had "turrets" that popped out of the NX. And they fired beams, not burst type. Which the Kelvin was showing bursts not beams. The Refit had beams as well, but they got effected when the warp core was not working. Thus how it ended up in burst and not very effective on the Reliant. You didn't read that part correctly.

Ships Built - Prime Universe builds them in space, not on the ground. That is well known fact.

artan42

farmallm wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

The NX had a back-lit deflector.


The Franklin does.



So you're saying that you've never seen the thrusters on a nacelle before, so they don't exist unless in an alternate universe? Really?



You've just said that the NX has cannons and the Conni Refit has cannon fire. Put 'em together and you have the Kelvins weapons. It's not hard. Where do you think the Conni Refit got it's cannons from? Technology tested on the Kelvin maybe?


Ships have been built on the ground before. Also, citation needed that the prime Ent was built in space.​​

Deflector - That is why at the end of it, I said it was debatable and mentioned the NX. Showing it can go either way.

Franklin - Isn't part what started it all. They said it started with the Kelvin. Thus making that the starting point. The Franklin isn't part of this.

Exhaust ports on the nacelles - I think this is what your referring to. The NX didn't have them and none from the TOS does. Actually no Prime Universe ships showing a function exhaust port on the nacelles. As this would put the impulse engines into nacelles and not a separate unit that is proven fact. This alone makes it a different Universe. For the other part on thrusters on the nacelles. Yes they do have them. They are usually the small square places on them.

Cannon fire - No, I never said they do. I said they had "turrets" that popped out of the NX. And they fired beams, not burst type. Which the Kelvin was showing bursts not beams. The Refit had beams as well, but they got effected when the warp core was not working. Thus how it ended up in burst and not very effective on the Reliant. You didn't read that part correctly.

Ships Built - Prime Universe builds them in space, not on the ground. That is well known fact.

The Franklin predated the Kelvin, it's older than the NX. and ENT is definitely in the same reality ad ID even if you don't think it's in the same one as the rest. So the reason the Kelvin has nacelles like that is because the Franklin has nacelles like that even if the NX didn't.

As for your confusion over the nacelle mounted impulse engine (I think that what you think it is rather than just being main engine power in the film), so? The Defiant is the only Federation ship with a cloaking device, the Oberth is the only one with a silly pod/hull thing, that Galaxy with its saucer separation, the Kelvin with this nacelle mounted impulse engine.

To translate, what you're saying is...

Actually no Non-Galaxy ships showing a saucer separation feature. As the saucer is attached directly onto the neck and not a separateable unit that is proven fact. This alone makes it a different Universe.

The Constitution had bursts. In all its films, not just after its warp core was damaged, all the time. So, this refit had bursts, the NX had its turrets, and the Kelvin had both. How is that an unbelievable situation to you?

I know they built them in space. Prove they didn't also build them on the ground. You can't claim the fact that they don't is evidence of your hypothesis and then refuse to back it up.

angrytarg

artan42 wrote: »

(...)
I know they built them in space. Prove they didn't also build them on the ground. You can't claim the fact that they don't is evidence of your hypothesis and then refuse to back it up.

It makes sense to assume both is true. Ships with the capability to land (Intrepid, possibly Defiant, Galaxy saucer modules) can and might be assembled on the ground, for the Galaxy saucer it's even canon. Building the Connie upright on the ground in one piece doesn't make sense, then again we are to believe the thing is also a submarine, so...​​

sharpie65

farmallm wrote: »

Cannon fire - No, I never said they do. I said they had "turrets" that popped out of the NX. And they fired beams, not burst type. Which the Kelvin was showing bursts not beams. The Refit had beams as well, but they got effected when the warp core was not working. Thus how it ended up in burst and not very effective on the Reliant. You didn't read that part correctly.

Prior to the NX receiving phase cannons, she was equipped with plasma cannons - similar to the kind used on freighters. All ships of the TMP era used emitter arrays, not the beam arrays that we know and love from TNG. I'd love to see your source for that. I think you may have confused TWoK with Nemesis on that last part; the refit Enterprise didn't take a hit near the warp core - they may have been trying to disable the Reliant, not destroy her..thus why the Enterprise took more damage, because Khan wanted to destroy her.

Ships Built - Prime Universe builds them in space, not on the ground. That is well known fact.

I'd like to see your source for this. Once spaceworthy (i.e. life support systems such as breathable air and gravity plating) there's no reason for ship construction to continue on the ground, and so any refitting and repairs take place in space. That's like saying a submarine is built under the sea, when in actuality it gets built first on land (drydock) before moving to the testing of various seawater-based systems (such as propellers).

artan42

angrytarg wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

(...)
I know they built them in space. Prove they didn't also build them on the ground. You can't claim the fact that they don't is evidence of your hypothesis and then refuse to back it up.

It makes sense to assume both is true. Ships with the capability to land (Intrepid, possibly Defiant, Galaxy saucer modules) can and might be assembled on the ground, for the Galaxy saucer it's even canon. Building the Connie upright on the ground in one piece doesn't make sense, then again we are to believe the thing is also a submarine, so...

Well the Defiant's MSD shows landing struts. But then again the Galaxy's shows giant ducks, so...

As for the submarine. Doesn't bother me either. We've seen ships fly around surface of the sun (crappy little BoP no less) and hide out in gas giants. Under water does not stretch credulity at all for me. The reason why they were underwater in the first place on the other hand...​​

talonxv

farmallm wrote: »

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talonxv wrote: »

Then explain this part in the First movie:

"Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party."
"An alternate reality?"
"Precisely. Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted, our destinies have changed."

Direct quotes between Spock and Urhura before Spock throws Kirk off the ship and he finds Spock prime. This part right here proves my Back to the Future theory as Nero did not go to an alternate universe HE WENT BACK IN TIME. That CREATED the alternate universe.

What going to dispute the actual movie now?

Ah, finally someone decided to bring it up.

Its starts at the Kelvin. Here is the breakdown from on screen shots of the ship in action. With direct proof its an Alternative Universe first then past. Making them into a place and time similar to the Mirror Universe.

1 - Deflector. The Kelvin used a dish style. Similar to TOS. However TOS did not glow it was a regular dish. Later the KT Enterprise has the same feature. TOS deflector didn't glow until the refit for the TMP. Others going back in time events during the prime, featured the correct deflector. You can't really count the NX here cause it didn't have a dish. So this is kinda debatable.

2 - Nacelles. No ship in the TOS used Nacelles like these period, not even the NX. No ship uses exhaust thrust coming from the nacelles. The NX didn't and on up. The movie shows the exhaust opening up to propel the Kelvin into a suicide run. When its been known fact this is not correct. As they have impulse engines for that, not the nacelles. This is proven fact that the impulse engines push it at sub light speeds other than thrusters. Since the Kelvin had this, and later the KT Enterprise, proves this design was already there before Nero showed up. This is why there is 3 sets of propulsion. Thrusters, impulse and nacelles, all different in their parts. KT Universe put the impulse with the nacelles which breaks known canon.

3 - Phaser turrets. Another big factor. The NX has them, but they fired in beams. Showing this is correct with the Prime. Later TOS ships used the same feature. But with the Connie, they was more built into the saucer and not having to come out. Which also was used the same tech on the Refit. Now in TWOK they fired in pulse/bolts how you want to put it. But if you remember in the TMP. The phasers was using the Warp Core for power. Which is why Decker told Kirk that. So in the TWOK, the engine took a hit which would greatly mess up the phasers. Which goes along with the rest in the Prime. They all was beams for main phasers. The Kelvin used bolt types from the turret. Which does not fit with the Prime's tech. And later even after Nero showed up, they still used that type of Tech. Which showing they didn't improve on that area.

4 - Ships Building Location. We didn't see where the Kelvin was built. But Enterprise showed that the Prime Universe was built in space. And going along the rest of them followed that same path that was set. Showing their ships was built in space. However, the KT Enterprise was built on the ground in Iowa. One would wonder if they built in space at the start, why would they go backwards and go to the ground? Which they didn't start in space to start with. Since they was already using known building knowledge.

These several clues alone, proves they went into a Alternative Universe.

Final part, you can't really trust what they say in the movies. Cause things change all the time. In the TMP, originally V'Ger was 82 AUs, later in the director's edition it went down to 2 AUs. In First Contact to Nemesis, each one told the Enterprise E had different amount of decks. And these are just 2 examples of many.

Its very hard to dispute facts when shown when it come to hard Technology. What they created was a bad movie from the start, cause someone failed to take notes. And decided to make a Comedy Trek and something to watch stuffing your face with popcorn.

So you're basically tossing out whatever you feel and going with your theory. I'm done trying to argue with stupid here. EVEN THE OWN MOVIE TELLS YOU YOU'RE WRONG.

And all you say is "well can't trust the movie because reasons".

catoblepasbeta

talonxv wrote: »

So you're basically tossing out whatever you feel and going with your theory. I'm done trying to argue with stupid here. EVEN THE OWN MOVIE TELLS YOU YOU'RE WRONG.

And all you say is "well can't trust the movie because reasons".

It's undeniably significantly larger than contemporary ships and is noticeably more heavily armed while taking many more design cues from post Kelvin design sensibilities then it does TOS. (s)he has some good points, and no amount of capslock/keyboard mashing really changes that.

artan42

It's only slightly bigger than the TOS Constitution. And it's aesthetics are more similar to ENT than anything post TOS.
And all their points have been adressed above.

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artan42

Replace saucer separation with cloaking device then. Or ablative armour generators. One off Federation tech exists.

talonxv

catoblepasbeta wrote: »

talonxv wrote: »

So you're basically tossing out whatever you feel and going with your theory. I'm done trying to argue with stupid here. EVEN THE OWN MOVIE TELLS YOU YOU'RE WRONG.

And all you say is "well can't trust the movie because reasons".

It's undeniably significantly larger than contemporary ships and is noticeably more heavily armed while taking many more design cues from post Kelvin design sensibilities then it does TOS. (s)he has some good points, and no amount of capslock/keyboard mashing really changes that.

Be that as it may, the movie itself, what is canon for pete's sake has completely debunked the theory and the reply is "oh you simply can't trust the movie." Moving goalposts much?

mustrumridcully0

catoblepasbeta wrote: »

talonxv wrote: »

So you're basically tossing out whatever you feel and going with your theory. I'm done trying to argue with stupid here. EVEN THE OWN MOVIE TELLS YOU YOU'RE WRONG.

And all you say is "well can't trust the movie because reasons".

It's undeniably significantly larger than contemporary ships and is noticeably more heavily armed while taking many more design cues from post Kelvin design sensibilities then it does TOS. (s)he has some good points, and no amount of capslock/keyboard mashing really changes that.

Being larger could just mean that at the time, they needed all that space to fit the technological capabilities they wanted into the ship.

The Constitution was a later design that might have been able to achieve more with less, and so they went with the more efficient package in the original timeline. But in the Kelvin Timeline, they used that new technology of the Connie to put more stuff in it, because they realized that it was possible that they might have to deal with much larger and more powerful ships then they had anticipated.

catoblepasbeta

artan42 wrote: »

It's only slightly bigger than the TOS Constitution. And it's aesthetics are more similar to ENT than anything post TOS.
And all their points have been adressed above.

How exactly? Engineering looks like a factory, which is more in line with NuTrek Enterprise's brewery, and while the NX was utilitarian, Engineering was pretty compact and clearly laid out compared to whatever that mess was. Likewise, the bridge has the window/viewscreen combo which is unique to the NuTrek timeline, and does not exist in either ENT or TOS-onwards. Likewise, it uses pulse weapons despite them becoming obsolete in ENT era..something like 80 earlier...and only coming back in Wrath of Khan(briefly) yet fit in pretty well with NuTrek Enterprise's armament. The Nacelle-mounted impulse engine and cavernous hanger stuffed with shuttles (essentially runabouts) are also design sensibilities that are more at home with Nutrek than alongside either ENT or TOS.

What exactly in Starfleet isn't bigger than? The Saladin? Daedalus? Both of those are even smaller. Heck, the cutting edge ship that eventually replaced it, the excelsior-is still smaller than it and undergunned by comparison. One of the explanations given as to why NuTrek has such large ships and are so heavily armed compared to prime-verse counterparts is that the destruction of the Kelvin convinced starfleet to heavily militarize-yet the Kelvin itself wouldn't look out of place in post-Kelvin, where the same cannot be said of it when placed alongside its supposed primeverse contemporaries.

legendarylycan

you see that big red line on the kelvin's saucer? see it? that's the ship's impulse engines...they are NOT mounted on the warp nacelles - same goes with the enterprise

anyone who thinks the warp nacelles in KTTrek are also impulse engines clearly has no idea what an impulse engine looks like​​

farmallm

The truth hurts, as its not part of the Prime Universe, and they went into an Alternative Universe.

catoblepasbeta

shadowfang240 wrote: »

you see that big red line on the kelvin's saucer? see it? that's the ship's impulse engines...they are NOT mounted on the warp nacelles - same goes with the enterprise

anyone who thinks the warp nacelles in KTTrek are also impulse engines clearly has no idea what an impulse engine looks like​​

Do you see that big white ball of light directly underneath it? That the camera zooms onto as it flares up right as the Kelvin accelerates and rams into the Narada? Because it's pretty obvious that it's functioning as an impulse engine in that scene.

For whatever reason the folks who designed the ship in the reboot decided that the conventional impulse engines on Trek ships weren't obvious enough as a source of sub-light thrust, so decided to turn the warp nacelles to that purpose too....because every single warp pylon in the new trek has that identical aperture on the back. No ships in the Primeverse have been shown to have such a feature.

So yes, the JJverse warp pylons double as impulse engines as well, as strange as that may seem.

legendarylycan

just because the ship moved fast at the same time the flap moved, doesn't make it a source of thrust

DS9 started moving really fast after a giant energy bubble wrapped around it - doesn't mean the shield generators were also impulse engines​​

snoggymack22

shadowfang240 wrote: »

DS9 started moving really fast after a giant energy bubble wrapped around it - doesn't mean the shield generators were also impulse engines​​

YES!

Wait ...

No? Maybe?

My headcanon needs to process this still.

catoblepasbeta

shadowfang240 wrote: »

just because the ship moved fast at the same time the flap moved, doesn't make it a source of thrust

DS9 started moving really fast after a giant energy bubble wrapped around it - doesn't mean the shield generators were also impulse engines​​

There's a pretty clear chain of events there. daddy Kirk sets the course, camera zooms in on warp pylon aperture, which then dilates and begins vomiting lens flare all over the screen and the ship moves forward. If it wasn't remotely connected to the ships thrust, why on earth would the camera shift to it to show it spewing out light, instead of...y'know the impulse engine on the back of the saucer. They were pretty clearly trying to convey that the blue-white aperture on the back spewing out light was providing thrust.

You have to be working hard to somehow miss what that scene was showing.

capnmanx

Does anyone here really believe that the Romulan War was fought with primitive atomic weapons, and crude ships that made quater or taking captives impossible? Ent would suggest that that is a load of guff.

Canon changes. Retcons happen. Doesn't mean a whole new universe; it just means that modern Trek was made by modern people for modern audiences. Nobody makes Hollywood blockbusters for audiences from 40 years ago; and it would make no sense to expect them to do so.

legendarylycan

or they were trying to convey that the nacelle, which is a giant subspace field generator, was reconfiguring its subspace field to allow for maximum acceleration from the IMPULSE ENGINES

that the nacelle was 'spewing light' means absolutely nothing, because guess what? ALL starfleet ship nacelles spew light when the ship goes to warp, and in the case of the TMP era, they spew it in a trail-like exhaust pattern​​

snoggymack22

catoblepasbeta wrote: »

You have to be working hard to somehow miss what that scene was showing.

Hey now, hold up a sec. Let's remember where we are. We're in a thread that was created to suggest a movie called Star Trek isn't Star Trek enough to be called Star Trek.

Most of the hard work here isn't being done by folks arguing over lighting effects on a warp nacelle.

farmallm

catoblepasbeta wrote: »

Do you see that big white ball of light directly underneath it? That the camera zooms onto as it flares up right as the Kelvin accelerates and rams into the Narada? Because it's pretty obvious that it's functioning as an impulse engine in that scene.

For whatever reason the folks who designed the ship in the reboot decided that the conventional impulse engines on Trek ships weren't obvious enough as a source of sub-light thrust, so decided to turn the warp nacelles to that purpose too....because every single warp pylon in the new trek has that identical aperture on the back. No ships in the Primeverse have been shown to have such a feature.

So yes, the JJverse warp pylons double as impulse engines as well, as strange as that may seem.

Yes your very correct. As the effects shot purposely used that to show the ship to move at a faster rate of speed. Thus making this nacelle having impulse power. This is not Prime Universe Tech.

farmallm

shadowfang240 wrote: »

or they were trying to convey that the nacelle, which is a giant subspace field generator, was reconfiguring its subspace field to allow for maximum acceleration from the IMPULSE ENGINES

that the nacelle was 'spewing light' means absolutely nothing, because guess what? ALL starfleet ship nacelles spew light when the ship goes to warp, and in the case of the TMP era, they spew it in a trail-like exhaust pattern​​

Slowly, the truth will set you free. As they went into a Alternative Universe.

catoblepasbeta

shadowfang240 wrote: »

or they were trying to convey that the nacelle, which is a giant subspace field generator, was reconfiguring its subspace field to allow for maximum acceleration from the IMPULSE ENGINES

that the nacelle was 'spewing light' means absolutely nothing, because guess what? ALL starfleet ship nacelles spew light when the ship goes to warp, and in the case of the TMP era, they spew it in a trail-like exhaust pattern​​

Now you are just being willfully ignorant to the information right in front of you.

"re-configuring its subspace field to allow for maximum acceleration from the impulse engines". Right. That's obviously what's happening, and any layman can just put one and one together and come to that elementary conclusion based on the dialogue of the scene and the wealth of on-screen evidence on how impulse engines and warp pylons interact every other time in Trek. Either that or you are just desperately grasping at straws at this point to scrabble together any ol' explanation that justifies your point of view.

I don't know where on earth you are getting that TOS movie era had exhaust trails, because ships in the TOS movies don't leave exhaust trails when they go to warp.

Kelvin is not going to warp in that scene, it's using sublight propulsion. it is spewing light out of the backside of its warp pylon to provide thrust at sublight speeds, so it means a heck of a lot in regards to how JJVerse ships work compared to Primeverse ships.

snoggymack22 wrote: »

catoblepasbeta wrote: »

You have to be working hard to somehow miss what that scene was showing.

Hey now, hold up a sec. Let's remember where we are. We're in a thread that was created to suggest a movie called Star Trek isn't Star Trek enough to be called Star Trek.

Most of the hard work here isn't being done by folks arguing over lighting effects on a warp nacelle.

The discussion may have meandered a little bit, but I believe what started this little debate was the assertion that NuTrek is best defined as a Star Trek reboot or alternate universe rather than a branching timeline due to apparent preexisting differences in that universe and the Primeverse prior to their supposed divergence at the Kelvin incident. So it's at least a little bit relevant IMO.

legendarylycan

i said NOTHING about TOS - i said TMP; get your goddamn facts straight

as for the rest of that targ manure floundering around in de-nile interspaced with forum ToS violations, i'm not even dignifying that with a response​​

farmallm

talonxv wrote: »

So you're basically tossing out whatever you feel and going with your theory. EVEN THE OWN MOVIE TELLS YOU YOU'RE WRONG.

And all you say is "well can't trust the movie because reasons".

Your mad, cause I busted up JJ Spoof Trek. And you think what they say on screen is all correct. Even though the next movie will tell other wise.

How else you explain the "growing decks on the Enterprise E" ??

catoblepasbeta

shadowfang240 wrote: »

i said NOTHING about TOS - i said TMP; get your goddamn facts straight

as for the rest of that targ manure floundering around in de-nile interspaced with forum ToS violations, i'm not even dignifying that with a response​​

Not that the distinction matters in the least, Because the TOS movie era includes ST I-VI.

Furthermore, the TMP warp trail effect cannot be defined as an exhaust trail any more than any of the other light trail warp effects in any of the other movies. Or shows for that matter. The stretching+streak of light that Trek ships exhibit when going to warp/coming out of warp is supposed to represent the optical effect of an outsider viewing the space-distorting effects of the warp bubble. TMP just took things in a somewhat more psychedelic direction. TMP could be a bit weird.

The Kelvin notably was not traveling at warp when it rammed the Narada, and did not exhibit any of the aforementioned characteristics.

But going by errr....the current state of your side of the debate. I don't think the matter of the Kelvin's Warp-impulse Nacelles is really worth pursuing. I feel their dual status as warp pylons and impulse engines is pretty well established at this point.

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