All Star Trek locations are within kiloplots of each other. Compare how long it took for Kirk to reach the centre of the Galaxy (TFF) and its edge (WNMHGB) and for Voyager to travel less distance.
This. Whatever you criticise in the new movies, other episodes / films did it first. Thinking about it, this is hardly surprising for the longest-running of all SF series.
The new movies also have a disadvantage in that (uniquely) this version of Trek only exists in movies. There simply isn't the time to engage in the sort of background, slower development that a series provides.
Threads like this are the reason I am ashamed of "having to" call myself a Star Trek Fan...
People that "Praise" an allegedly cerebral piece about accepting differences and different ideas about being culturally "superior" to us present day humans acting like little children that didn't get the flavour of Lollipop they wanted and throwing a temper tantrum...
What happened to IDIC?
What happend to the Spirit?
I guess nobody would enjoy watching the crew through weeks of routine work, killing time until they reach their destination. However, in the shows it never felt like instant travel, but this is something really hard to depict believable in a single movie.
See the Hobbit or Lord of the Rings movies. The parties needed several months to travel from point A to point B, but the movies are all "let's go there" *bing* "okay, we're here" and of course they never discuss substantial stuff during the long journeys since the audience cannot miss sensitive talks. A movie is a very bad medium to depict lengthy journeys.
I get that, but most movies do a better job at this than the JJ movies just through proper editing. For example, in FC the Ent-E warps from the Romulan border to Earth, and then the movie cuts to the Battle of Sector 001. The time it takes the enterprise to get there is vague at best, it could have been minutes, or it could have been two hours. All we know is that the battle isn't over yet.
In ID, on the other hand, the enterprise is at the klingon border, goes to warp, Dr Marcus sprints down the hall, and poof they're at earth. Just a simple shot in the middle of that of Admiral Marcus asking how long until they intercept the enterprise would have been enough to make it feel like it could have taken longer than what we see.
I guess nobody would enjoy watching the crew through weeks of routine work, killing time until they reach their destination. However, in the shows it never felt like instant travel, but this is something really hard to depict believable in a single movie.
See the Hobbit or Lord of the Rings movies. The parties needed several months to travel from point A to point B, but the movies are all "let's go there" *bing* "okay, we're here" and of course they never discuss substantial stuff during the long journeys since the audience cannot miss sensitive talks. A movie is a very bad medium to depict lengthy journeys.
I get that, but most movies do a better job at this than the JJ movies just through proper editing. For example, in FC the Ent-E warps from the Romulan border to Earth, and then the movie cuts to the Battle of Sector 001. The time it takes the enterprise to get there is vague at best, it could have been minutes, or it could have been two hours. All we know is that the battle isn't over yet.
In ID, on the other hand, the enterprise is at the klingon border, goes to warp, Dr Marcus sprints down the hall, and poof they're at earth. Just a simple shot in the middle of that of Admiral Marcus asking how long until they intercept the enterprise would have been enough to make it feel like it could have taken longer than what we see.
On the other hand in Star Trek 2009, Kirk had time to get stranded on a moon, meet old Spock, find Scotty, and still transport onto the Enterprise all before they even GOT to the Laurentian System.
So yeah. I think we're back at being completely subjective. And since we're going to go there, let's talk about travel times and "threat" in Star Trek Prime Universe movies! My favorite is pointed out in a very entertaining manner by Red Letter Media and involves Generations. When Soran fires his missile to move the Nexus. When Worf says he doesn't have enough time to lock on with photon torpedoes.
As Red Letter Media points out, he's not a physicist, BUT ...
How long does it take LIGHT to travel from the sun to the earth?
Why couldn't Worf get a target lock on a sub-light-speed travelling missile going from a planet in a life sustaining orbital distance around a star to a star?
I mean you want to dissect Carol Marcus running down a hall, but let's not be shy! Let's start to dissect the Prime Universe we all love and revere so much as well! Why is a missile travelling to a star to blow it up incapable of being targeted by photon torpedoes?
Plot. That's all. Plot.
But hey, let's keep nit picking Into Darkness. It fits your head canon better than to nitpick a Picard crew movie.
The entire timeline would have changed as Nero passed through the portal, like the Enterprise-D and her entire history did as the Enterprise-C passed through the portal in Yesterday's Enterprise.
I mean, logically the JJ-verse Enterprise-D will certainly have at least a few different crew members, or more likely an entirely different crew. With a different crew, the encounters with the Borg would have gone differently, and the attack on First Contact probably wouldn't happen. In First Contact, many of Cochrane's people were killed in the initial attack. So Joe scientist, who was killed in the prime verse bit is now alive in the JJ-verse, lives on and has kids, kids who never existed in the prime universe. These kids have their own kids, or change how different technologies are developed, leading to ships that look different from their prime universe counterparts. Further, since no borg go back in time, the Enterprise era arctic research team doesn't die, and also live on to alter the timeline of the JJ-verse.
Or do you prefer there be massive, unexplainable paradoxes in the JJ-verse, where people are influenced by events that did not happen in this universe?
Nero went into a Parallel universe. Where things was different, and not even part of the Prime timeline. He just didn't go back in time only. If so it would be based off the Prime Time line.
Well I guess you haven't played on tribble yet because there's going to be a discussion with Daniels which is going to throw this entire "it was a parallel universe already" idea right out the airlock.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
Now, the TNG movies technically also are based ona show, but in all of them the protagonists were so weirdly rewritten that it doesn't matter. What stays are actors pushed into action movies that were not meant to play action movies with continuity damaging plots and unmemorable villians - just like the new movies.
"True Trek" is a inconclusive term to use. But I think it refers to the notion of using the stage it has available to make overall positive statements about humanities' future. The TNG movies and the new movies don't really go there. They're movies for movie goers, if that makes sense...
Thing is... Insurrection is my favorite Star Trek movie. Why? because it had meaningful social commentary in it. So what if it was cleverly disguised as an action movie? So was "Live free and Die Hard".
Well I guess you haven't played on tribble yet because there's going to be a discussion with Daniels which is going to throw this entire "it was a parallel universe already" idea right out the airlock.
STO isn't a good source. So you can't really call it Cannon. Going by the movie itself with is hard cannon. Your idea went up in smoke and out the air lock. They went into a Past Alternate Reality and no longer part of the Prime Reality. Where everything is different even before Nero showed up.
And if its part of the Lv40 missions, sorry it don't fit in with my current mains. As I don't go back and do those with my mains cause it don't work in their current place. It may be next year before i get to that point in the missions again. IF I level up the AOY.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
STO is probably the best source for Star Trek related cannons. The only thing that comes close is the recent film series. Then maybe DS9 because of the clips they have of the rapidly firing cannons on the Defiant. The rest of Star Trek tends to feature beam arrays.
I guess nobody would enjoy watching the crew through weeks of routine work, killing time until they reach their destination. However, in the shows it never felt like instant travel, but this is something really hard to depict believable in a single movie.
See the Hobbit or Lord of the Rings movies. The parties needed several months to travel from point A to point B, but the movies are all "let's go there" *bing* "okay, we're here" and of course they never discuss substantial stuff during the long journeys since the audience cannot miss sensitive talks. A movie is a very bad medium to depict lengthy journeys.
I get that, but most movies do a better job at this than the JJ movies just through proper editing. For example, in FC the Ent-E warps from the Romulan border to Earth, and then the movie cuts to the Battle of Sector 001. The time it takes the enterprise to get there is vague at best, it could have been minutes, or it could have been two hours. All we know is that the battle isn't over yet.
In ID, on the other hand, the enterprise is at the klingon border, goes to warp, Dr Marcus sprints down the hall, and poof they're at earth. Just a simple shot in the middle of that of Admiral Marcus asking how long until they intercept the enterprise would have been enough to make it feel like it could have taken longer than what we see.
On the other hand in Star Trek 2009, Kirk had time to get stranded on a moon, meet old Spock, find Scotty, and still transport onto the Enterprise all before they even GOT to the Laurentian System.
So yeah. I think we're back at being completely subjective. And since we're going to go there, let's talk about travel times and "threat" in Star Trek Prime Universe movies! My favorite is pointed out in a very entertaining manner by Red Letter Media and involves Generations. When Soran fires his missile to move the Nexus. When Worf says he doesn't have enough time to lock on with photon torpedoes.
As Red Letter Media points out, he's not a physicist, BUT ...
How long does it take LIGHT to travel from the sun to the earth?
Why couldn't Worf get a target lock on a sub-light-speed travelling missile going from a planet in a life sustaining orbital distance around a star to a star?
I mean you want to dissect Carol Marcus running down a hall, but let's not be shy! Let's start to dissect the Prime Universe we all love and revere so much as well! Why is a missile travelling to a star to blow it up incapable of being targeted by photon torpedoes?
Plot. That's all. Plot.
But hey, let's keep nit picking Into Darkness. It fits your head canon better than to nitpick a Picard crew movie.
As I said I like the JJ movies, that's just one of the few things that bothers me about them.
Also, I do not like Generations, but I can see how a photon torpedo might not travel fast enough to intercept the missile after it’s been fired.
Well I guess you haven't played on tribble yet because there's going to be a discussion with Daniels which is going to throw this entire "it was a parallel universe already" idea right out the airlock.
STO isn't a good source. So you can't really call it Cannon. Going by the movie itself with is hard cannon. Your idea went up in smoke and out the air lock. They went into a Past Alternate Reality and no longer part of the Prime Reality. Where everything is different even before Nero showed up.
And if its part of the Lv40 missions, sorry it don't fit in with my current mains. As I don't go back and do those with my mains cause it don't work in their current place. It may be next year before i get to that point in the missions again. IF I level up the AOY.
Then explain this part in the First movie:
"Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party."
"An alternate reality?"
"Precisely. Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted, our destinies have changed."
Direct quotes between Spock and Urhura before Spock throws Kirk off the ship and he finds Spock prime. This part right here proves my Back to the Future theory as Nero did not go to an alternate universe HE WENT BACK IN TIME. That CREATED the alternate universe.
What going to dispute the actual movie now?
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
...they deserve the name because they are literally called 'Star Trek'. Its existence doesn't delete or invalidate your precious TOS. I agree with the comments in here about them being a lot of people's jumping on point for the brand, and meeting them with a wall of elitist posturing and demanding is utterly stupid. I wasn't alive for TOS and was barely alive for TNG.
Nobody is forcing you to open the lockbox or play the missions. Deal with it, nerds.
STO is probably the best source for Star Trek related cannons. The only thing that comes close is the recent film series. Then maybe DS9 because of the clips they have of the rapidly firing cannons on the Defiant. The rest of Star Trek tends to feature beam arrays.
My only 2 issues with the new Star Trek movies are this. 1) Sure they look like Star Trek, Sure they have the same characters we see in the Original Series, Or The Prime Universe, as some people have come to call it, but they have the action punch of a Star Wars Movie. 2) While these movies have the punch of an action movie, They have lost they're moral soul. The Original series, Next Gen, and the first 10 films, all had a moral that was based on events, in the real world. for example, Star Trek VI The Undiscovered Country, was based on the Events of The Gulf War, and the over throwing of Saddam Hussein and the people of Iraq, being scared of freedom, True freedom, and being frightened of change. Another example of this, goes all the way back to the Original Series episode, "The Way To Eden" Which involves a 23rd Century version of the Hippy Movement. I grew up watching syndicated reruns of the Original Series. sadly i was born a year after the show was canceled. My love for Trek was the fact that what i saw on screen, Was a future i wanted to be a part of. No hunger, no war, No disease. No racial or sexual orientation issues, everyone striving to better themselves as a whole, and not who has the most of this, or the best of that. Or what monopoly makes the most money. I do not hate the New Star Trek movies, I will always love the Original Series for what i just mentioned above, However the new movies are fun to watch, and enjoyable as a movie, and for all the haters out there...
I have 2 things for you. 1) Don't hate on someone, because they have a preference, everyone is entitled, to an opinion. 2) The new Star Wars is set for new audiences, and a younger generation, sure it may have had some of the original cast back, but it was a new gen movie, a passing of the torch of sorts. Everyone i spoke to Love it. LOVED IT!. Old fans and New ones alike. You don't see people fighting over who's Star Wars is who's, and yes i did enjoy the new Star Wars as well. People just need to grow up, and stop acting like 5 year old's, who have gotten they're sucker taken away from them. I will go see Star Trek Beyond when it comes out on the 22nd, so start hating me because of it. Nuff Said.
My only 2 issues with the new Star Trek movies are this. 1) Sure they look like Star Trek, Sure they have the same characters we see in the Original Series, Or The Prime Universe, as some people have come to call it, but they have the action punch of a Star Wars Movie. 2) While these movies have the punch of an action movie, They have lost they're moral soul. The Original series, Next Gen, and the first 10 films, all had a moral that was based on events, in the real world. for example, Star Trek VI The Undiscovered Country, was based on the Events of The Gulf War, and the over throwing of Saddam Hussein and the people of Iraq, being scared of freedom, True freedom, and being frightened of change. Another example of this, goes all the way back to the Original Series episode, "The Way To Eden" Which involves a 23rd Century version of the Hippy Movement. I grew up watching syndicated reruns of the Original Series. sadly i was born a year after the show was canceled. My love for Trek was the fact that what i saw on screen, Was a future i wanted to be a part of. No hunger, no war, No disease. No racial or sexual orientation issues, everyone striving to better themselves as a whole, and not who has the most of this, or the best of that. Or what monopoly makes the most money. I do not hate the New Star Trek movies, I will always love the Original Series for what i just mentioned above, However the new movies are fun to watch, and enjoyable as a movie, and for all the haters out there...
I have 2 things for you. 1) Don't hate on someone, because they have a preference, everyone is entitled, to an opinion. 2) The new Star Wars is set for new audiences, and a younger generation, sure it may have had some of the original cast back, but it was a new gen movie, a passing of the torch of sorts. Everyone i spoke to Love it. LOVED IT!. Old fans and New ones alike. You don't see people fighting over who's Star Wars is who's, and yes i did enjoy the new Star Wars as well. People just need to grow up, and stop acting like 5 year old's, who have gotten they're sucker taken away from them. I will go see Star Trek Beyond when it comes out on the 22nd, so start hating me because of it. Nuff Said.
I despise TFA, mostly because it's a straight up rip off of ANH, but also because it's creation means my preferred Star Wars universe, the old EU, will never have any of it's dangling threads concluded. I defend the JJ-Trek movies, but when it comes to star wars and TFA I'm just as hateful as those that claim Trek '09 isn't canon.
In my star wars headcanon, the old EU stories aren't "Legends", rather they are the only true story, and TFA is just an overbudgeted fan fiction. So now you can say you've talked to a hardcore star wars fan who most certainly does NOT love TFA.
I despise TFA, mostly because it's a straight up rip off of ANH, but also because it's creation means my preferred Star Wars universe, the old EU, will never have any of it's dangling threads concluded. I defend the JJ-Trek movies, but when it comes to star wars and TFA I'm just as hateful as those that claim Trek '09 isn't canon.
In my star wars headcanon, the old EU stories aren't "Legends", rather they are the only true story, and TFA is just an overbudgeted fan fiction. So now you can say you've talked to a hardcore star wars fan who most certainly does NOT love TFA.[/quote]
Actually UC is about the end of the Cold War between the US and Russia. The movie came out in '91. Saddam was disposed in 2003.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
2) While these movies have the punch of an action movie, They have lost they're moral soul. The Original series, Next Gen, and the first 10 films, all had a moral that was based on events, in the real world. for example,
TV shows and films do not compare. You can only equate TAR to the first 10 films.
Star Trek VI The Undiscovered Country, was based on the Events of The Gulf War, and the over throwing of Saddam Hussein and the people of Iraq, being scared of freedom, True freedom, and being frightened of change.
And it's the only one. TUC was the only film (other than Insurrection and TMP) that were motion picture expansions of the TV show. The rest were action films, that ALL (excluding TVH) centred around revenge. All of them. 09 fits right in there.
As for Into Darkness. You're completely wrong. It's a story on drone warfare and attempts to end wars before they start (i.e. the whole point of S31). You can dislike this, but to claim it doesn't exist is silly.
The new Star Wars is set for new audiences, and a younger generation, sure it may have had some of the original cast back, but it was a new gen movie, a passing of the torch of sorts. Everyone i spoke to Love it. LOVED IT!. Old fans and New ones alike. You don't see people fighting over who's Star Wars is who's, and yes i did enjoy the new Star Wars as well. People just need to grow up, and stop acting like 5 year old's, who have gotten they're sucker taken away from them. I will go see Star Trek Beyond when it comes out on the 22nd, so start hating me because of it. Nuff Said.
All of this is completely and utterly correct.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The new movies are deserving of being called 'Star Trek' because that is what they are called. They were written as Star Trek and published(?) by one half of the pair that created the previous 50 years of Star Trek; they contain characters from TOS and TNG; they contain references from most of the other series in the Star Trek franchise.
If you have any more arguments against other than "I didn't like it", feel free. Glaring discontinuities and retcons have been a part of Trek since the first iteration, so that argument goes out the window. As for Enterprise vs TOS, gender roles and opinions have changed quite a bit over 40 years..and we didn't really see anything or hear much of the pre-TOS era during TOS.
"Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party."
"An alternate reality?"
"Precisely. Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted, our destinies have changed."
Direct quotes between Spock and Urhura before Spock throws Kirk off the ship and he finds Spock prime. This part right here proves my Back to the Future theory as Nero did not go to an alternate universe HE WENT BACK IN TIME. That CREATED the alternate universe.
What going to dispute the actual movie now?
Ah, finally someone decided to bring it up.
Its starts at the Kelvin. Here is the breakdown from on screen shots of the ship in action. With direct proof its an Alternative Universe first then past. Making them into a place and time similar to the Mirror Universe.
1 - Deflector. The Kelvin used a dish style. Similar to TOS. However TOS did not glow it was a regular dish. Later the KT Enterprise has the same feature. TOS deflector didn't glow until the refit for the TMP. Others going back in time events during the prime, featured the correct deflector. You can't really count the NX here cause it didn't have a dish. So this is kinda debatable.
2 - Nacelles. No ship in the TOS used Nacelles like these period, not even the NX. No ship uses exhaust thrust coming from the nacelles. The NX didn't and on up. The movie shows the exhaust opening up to propel the Kelvin into a suicide run. When its been known fact this is not correct. As they have impulse engines for that, not the nacelles. This is proven fact that the impulse engines push it at sub light speeds other than thrusters. Since the Kelvin had this, and later the KT Enterprise, proves this design was already there before Nero showed up. This is why there is 3 sets of propulsion. Thrusters, impulse and nacelles, all different in their parts. KT Universe put the impulse with the nacelles which breaks known canon.
3 - Phaser turrets. Another big factor. The NX has them, but they fired in beams. Showing this is correct with the Prime. Later TOS ships used the same feature. But with the Connie, they was more built into the saucer and not having to come out. Which also was used the same tech on the Refit. Now in TWOK they fired in pulse/bolts how you want to put it. But if you remember in the TMP. The phasers was using the Warp Core for power. Which is why Decker told Kirk that. So in the TWOK, the engine took a hit which would greatly mess up the phasers. Which goes along with the rest in the Prime. They all was beams for main phasers. The Kelvin used bolt types from the turret. Which does not fit with the Prime's tech. And later even after Nero showed up, they still used that type of Tech. Which showing they didn't improve on that area.
4 - Ships Building Location. We didn't see where the Kelvin was built. But Enterprise showed that the Prime Universe was built in space. And going along the rest of them followed that same path that was set. Showing their ships was built in space. However, the KT Enterprise was built on the ground in Iowa. One would wonder if they built in space at the start, why would they go backwards and go to the ground? Which they didn't start in space to start with. Since they was already using known building knowledge.
These several clues alone, proves they went into a Alternative Universe.
Final part, you can't really trust what they say in the movies. Cause things change all the time. In the TMP, originally V'Ger was 82 AUs, later in the director's edition it went down to 2 AUs. In First Contact to Nemesis, each one told the Enterprise E had different amount of decks. And these are just 2 examples of many.
Its very hard to dispute facts when shown when it come to hard Technology. What they created was a bad movie from the start, cause someone failed to take notes. And decided to make a Comedy Trek and something to watch stuffing your face with popcorn.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Well to answer the question of the OP. "Why do so many people believe the JJ Trek Movies are deserving of being called Trek?"
People don't can't claim if it's deserving of the name Trek or not, the owners of the intellectual property of Star Trek do. If they say it's Trek, it's Trek.
Simple. Done. /Thread
Retired. I'm now in search for that perfect space anomaly.
The ongoing debated is whether or not 2009 is in a Disrupted timeline, or an Alternate timeline. Yes it was said in the first film, that the timeline skewed when Spock and Nero were slung back in time. But was it Prime Universe time, or an alternate timeline time? The script went a bit south in that regard.
and TV shows DO compare, Because without them, Star Trek would not exist.
That's not what I meant. I'm saying you can't compare apples to oranges. One has time to develop characters, plot, and philosophy. The other does not and must build on the TV ships it developed from. Spock's death in TWoK worked because people had TOS, TAS, and TMP to enjoy the character. Kirk's death in ID didn't work because he'd only existed since 09. Reunification worked because it relied on plots and characters developed through TNG and TOS. Nemesis didn't work because it pulled Shinzon and the Remans out of its ar$e and continued nothing of what TNG and DS9 had built for the Romulans.
But it shouldn't be a problem, films are meant to be two hours of a contained plot, sometimes with outside references. They shouldn't require having watched the proceeding hundred hours of a TV show. With no context of TOS, Spock's death and the cop-out resurrection in TSFS carries precisely the same weight as Kirk's in ID. There was one single film before hand to get to know them, a film where they spent most of it acting like arrogant d1cks. Then the die in its sequel, then the plot forces them back to life because the status quo is god.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Its starts at the Kelvin. Here is the breakdown from on screen shots of the ship in action. With direct proof its an Alternative Universe first then past. Making them into a place and time similar to the Mirror Universe.
1 - Deflector. The Kelvin used a dish style. Similar to TOS. However TOS did not glow it was a regular dish. Later the KT Enterprise has the same feature. TOS deflector didn't glow until the refit for the TMP. Others going back in time events during the prime, featured the correct deflector. You can't really count the NX here cause it didn't have a dish. So this is kinda debatable.
2 - Nacelles. No ship in the TOS used Nacelles like these period, not even the NX. No ship uses exhaust thrust coming from the nacelles. The NX didn't and on up.
The movie shows the exhaust opening up to propel the Kelvin into a suicide run. When its been known fact this is not correct. As they have impulse engines for that, not the nacelles. This is proven fact that the impulse engines push it at sub light speeds other than thrusters. Since the Kelvin had this, and later the KT Enterprise, proves this design was already there before Nero showed up. This is why there is 3 sets of propulsion. Thrusters, impulse and nacelles, all different in their parts. KT Universe put the impulse with the nacelles which breaks known canon.
So you're saying that you've never seen the thrusters on a nacelle before, so they don't exist unless in an alternate universe? Really?
3 - Phaser turrets. Another big factor. The NX has them, but they fired in beams. Showing this is correct with the Prime. Later TOS ships used the same feature. But with the Connie, they was more built into the saucer and not having to come out. Which also was used the same tech on the Refit. Now in TWOK they fired in pulse/bolts how you want to put it. But if you remember in the TMP. The phasers was using the Warp Core for power. Which is why Decker told Kirk that. So in the TWOK, the engine took a hit which would greatly mess up the phasers. Which goes along with the rest in the Prime. They all was beams for main phasers. The Kelvin used bolt types from the turret. Which does not fit with the Prime's tech. And later even after Nero showed up, they still used that type of Tech. Which showing they didn't improve on that area.
You've just said that the NX has cannons and the Conni Refit has cannon fire. Put 'em together and you have the Kelvins weapons. It's not hard. Where do you think the Conni Refit got it's cannons from? Technology tested on the Kelvin maybe?
4 - Ships Building Location. We didn't see where the Kelvin was built. But Enterprise showed that the Prime Universe was built in space. And going along the rest of them followed that same path that was set. Showing their ships was built in space. However, the KT Enterprise was built on the ground in Iowa. One would wonder if they built in space at the start, why would they go backwards and go to the ground? Which they didn't start in space to start with. Since they was already using known building knowledge.
Ships have been built on the ground before. Also, citation needed that the prime Ent was built in space.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I despise TFA, mostly because it's a straight up rip off of ANH, but also because it's creation means my preferred Star Wars universe, the old EU, will never have any of it's dangling threads concluded. I defend the JJ-Trek movies, but when it comes to star wars and TFA I'm just as hateful as those that claim Trek '09 isn't canon.
In my star wars headcanon, the old EU stories aren't "Legends", rather they are the only true story, and TFA is just an overbudgeted fan fiction. So now you can say you've talked to a hardcore star wars fan who most certainly does NOT love TFA.
I rest my case.....
Doesn't matter what you say, most of the plot for TFA was simply copied and pasted from ANH, which as I said is my primary issue with it.
Comments
This. Whatever you criticise in the new movies, other episodes / films did it first. Thinking about it, this is hardly surprising for the longest-running of all SF series.
The new movies also have a disadvantage in that (uniquely) this version of Trek only exists in movies. There simply isn't the time to engage in the sort of background, slower development that a series provides.
People that "Praise" an allegedly cerebral piece about accepting differences and different ideas about being culturally "superior" to us present day humans acting like little children that didn't get the flavour of Lollipop they wanted and throwing a temper tantrum...
What happened to IDIC?
What happend to the Spirit?
This is absolutely disgusting...
I get that, but most movies do a better job at this than the JJ movies just through proper editing. For example, in FC the Ent-E warps from the Romulan border to Earth, and then the movie cuts to the Battle of Sector 001. The time it takes the enterprise to get there is vague at best, it could have been minutes, or it could have been two hours. All we know is that the battle isn't over yet.
In ID, on the other hand, the enterprise is at the klingon border, goes to warp, Dr Marcus sprints down the hall, and poof they're at earth. Just a simple shot in the middle of that of Admiral Marcus asking how long until they intercept the enterprise would have been enough to make it feel like it could have taken longer than what we see.
On the other hand in Star Trek 2009, Kirk had time to get stranded on a moon, meet old Spock, find Scotty, and still transport onto the Enterprise all before they even GOT to the Laurentian System.
So yeah. I think we're back at being completely subjective. And since we're going to go there, let's talk about travel times and "threat" in Star Trek Prime Universe movies! My favorite is pointed out in a very entertaining manner by Red Letter Media and involves Generations. When Soran fires his missile to move the Nexus. When Worf says he doesn't have enough time to lock on with photon torpedoes.
As Red Letter Media points out, he's not a physicist, BUT ...
How long does it take LIGHT to travel from the sun to the earth?
Why couldn't Worf get a target lock on a sub-light-speed travelling missile going from a planet in a life sustaining orbital distance around a star to a star?
I mean you want to dissect Carol Marcus running down a hall, but let's not be shy! Let's start to dissect the Prime Universe we all love and revere so much as well! Why is a missile travelling to a star to blow it up incapable of being targeted by photon torpedoes?
Plot. That's all. Plot.
But hey, let's keep nit picking Into Darkness. It fits your head canon better than to nitpick a Picard crew movie.
Well I guess you haven't played on tribble yet because there's going to be a discussion with Daniels which is going to throw this entire "it was a parallel universe already" idea right out the airlock.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
My character Tsin'xing
STO isn't a good source. So you can't really call it Cannon. Going by the movie itself with is hard cannon. Your idea went up in smoke and out the air lock. They went into a Past Alternate Reality and no longer part of the Prime Reality. Where everything is different even before Nero showed up.
And if its part of the Lv40 missions, sorry it don't fit in with my current mains. As I don't go back and do those with my mains cause it don't work in their current place. It may be next year before i get to that point in the missions again. IF I level up the AOY.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
STO is probably the best source for Star Trek related cannons. The only thing that comes close is the recent film series. Then maybe DS9 because of the clips they have of the rapidly firing cannons on the Defiant. The rest of Star Trek tends to feature beam arrays.
As I said I like the JJ movies, that's just one of the few things that bothers me about them.
Also, I do not like Generations, but I can see how a photon torpedo might not travel fast enough to intercept the missile after it’s been fired.
Then explain this part in the First movie:
"Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party."
"An alternate reality?"
"Precisely. Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted, our destinies have changed."
Direct quotes between Spock and Urhura before Spock throws Kirk off the ship and he finds Spock prime. This part right here proves my Back to the Future theory as Nero did not go to an alternate universe HE WENT BACK IN TIME. That CREATED the alternate universe.
What going to dispute the actual movie now?
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Nobody is forcing you to open the lockbox or play the missions. Deal with it, nerds.
+1
My character Tsin'xing
Perhaps the writers meant only a few seconds until it was out of range?
I have 2 things for you. 1) Don't hate on someone, because they have a preference, everyone is entitled, to an opinion. 2) The new Star Wars is set for new audiences, and a younger generation, sure it may have had some of the original cast back, but it was a new gen movie, a passing of the torch of sorts. Everyone i spoke to Love it. LOVED IT!. Old fans and New ones alike. You don't see people fighting over who's Star Wars is who's, and yes i did enjoy the new Star Wars as well. People just need to grow up, and stop acting like 5 year old's, who have gotten they're sucker taken away from them. I will go see Star Trek Beyond when it comes out on the 22nd, so start hating me because of it. Nuff Said.
I despise TFA, mostly because it's a straight up rip off of ANH, but also because it's creation means my preferred Star Wars universe, the old EU, will never have any of it's dangling threads concluded. I defend the JJ-Trek movies, but when it comes to star wars and TFA I'm just as hateful as those that claim Trek '09 isn't canon.
In my star wars headcanon, the old EU stories aren't "Legends", rather they are the only true story, and TFA is just an overbudgeted fan fiction. So now you can say you've talked to a hardcore star wars fan who most certainly does NOT love TFA.
I despise TFA, mostly because it's a straight up rip off of ANH, but also because it's creation means my preferred Star Wars universe, the old EU, will never have any of it's dangling threads concluded. I defend the JJ-Trek movies, but when it comes to star wars and TFA I'm just as hateful as those that claim Trek '09 isn't canon.
In my star wars headcanon, the old EU stories aren't "Legends", rather they are the only true story, and TFA is just an overbudgeted fan fiction. So now you can say you've talked to a hardcore star wars fan who most certainly does NOT love TFA.[/quote]
I rest my case.....
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
And? You say that like it's a bad thing.
TV shows and films do not compare. You can only equate TAR to the first 10 films.
And it's the only one. TUC was the only film (other than Insurrection and TMP) that were motion picture expansions of the TV show. The rest were action films, that ALL (excluding TVH) centred around revenge. All of them. 09 fits right in there.
As for Into Darkness. You're completely wrong. It's a story on drone warfare and attempts to end wars before they start (i.e. the whole point of S31). You can dislike this, but to claim it doesn't exist is silly.
All of this is completely and utterly correct.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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If you have any more arguments against other than "I didn't like it", feel free. Glaring discontinuities and retcons have been a part of Trek since the first iteration, so that argument goes out the window. As for Enterprise vs TOS, gender roles and opinions have changed quite a bit over 40 years..and we didn't really see anything or hear much of the pre-TOS era during TOS.
Ah, finally someone decided to bring it up.
Its starts at the Kelvin. Here is the breakdown from on screen shots of the ship in action. With direct proof its an Alternative Universe first then past. Making them into a place and time similar to the Mirror Universe.
1 - Deflector. The Kelvin used a dish style. Similar to TOS. However TOS did not glow it was a regular dish. Later the KT Enterprise has the same feature. TOS deflector didn't glow until the refit for the TMP. Others going back in time events during the prime, featured the correct deflector. You can't really count the NX here cause it didn't have a dish. So this is kinda debatable.
2 - Nacelles. No ship in the TOS used Nacelles like these period, not even the NX. No ship uses exhaust thrust coming from the nacelles. The NX didn't and on up. The movie shows the exhaust opening up to propel the Kelvin into a suicide run. When its been known fact this is not correct. As they have impulse engines for that, not the nacelles. This is proven fact that the impulse engines push it at sub light speeds other than thrusters. Since the Kelvin had this, and later the KT Enterprise, proves this design was already there before Nero showed up. This is why there is 3 sets of propulsion. Thrusters, impulse and nacelles, all different in their parts. KT Universe put the impulse with the nacelles which breaks known canon.
3 - Phaser turrets. Another big factor. The NX has them, but they fired in beams. Showing this is correct with the Prime. Later TOS ships used the same feature. But with the Connie, they was more built into the saucer and not having to come out. Which also was used the same tech on the Refit. Now in TWOK they fired in pulse/bolts how you want to put it. But if you remember in the TMP. The phasers was using the Warp Core for power. Which is why Decker told Kirk that. So in the TWOK, the engine took a hit which would greatly mess up the phasers. Which goes along with the rest in the Prime. They all was beams for main phasers. The Kelvin used bolt types from the turret. Which does not fit with the Prime's tech. And later even after Nero showed up, they still used that type of Tech. Which showing they didn't improve on that area.
4 - Ships Building Location. We didn't see where the Kelvin was built. But Enterprise showed that the Prime Universe was built in space. And going along the rest of them followed that same path that was set. Showing their ships was built in space. However, the KT Enterprise was built on the ground in Iowa. One would wonder if they built in space at the start, why would they go backwards and go to the ground? Which they didn't start in space to start with. Since they was already using known building knowledge.
These several clues alone, proves they went into a Alternative Universe.
Final part, you can't really trust what they say in the movies. Cause things change all the time. In the TMP, originally V'Ger was 82 AUs, later in the director's edition it went down to 2 AUs. In First Contact to Nemesis, each one told the Enterprise E had different amount of decks. And these are just 2 examples of many.
Its very hard to dispute facts when shown when it come to hard Technology. What they created was a bad movie from the start, cause someone failed to take notes. And decided to make a Comedy Trek and something to watch stuffing your face with popcorn.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
People don't can't claim if it's deserving of the name Trek or not, the owners of the intellectual property of Star Trek do. If they say it's Trek, it's Trek.
Simple. Done. /Thread
That's not what I meant. I'm saying you can't compare apples to oranges. One has time to develop characters, plot, and philosophy. The other does not and must build on the TV ships it developed from. Spock's death in TWoK worked because people had TOS, TAS, and TMP to enjoy the character. Kirk's death in ID didn't work because he'd only existed since 09. Reunification worked because it relied on plots and characters developed through TNG and TOS. Nemesis didn't work because it pulled Shinzon and the Remans out of its ar$e and continued nothing of what TNG and DS9 had built for the Romulans.
But it shouldn't be a problem, films are meant to be two hours of a contained plot, sometimes with outside references. They shouldn't require having watched the proceeding hundred hours of a TV show. With no context of TOS, Spock's death and the cop-out resurrection in TSFS carries precisely the same weight as Kirk's in ID. There was one single film before hand to get to know them, a film where they spent most of it acting like arrogant d1cks. Then the die in its sequel, then the plot forces them back to life because the status quo is god.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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The NX had a back-lit deflector.
The Franklin does.
So you're saying that you've never seen the thrusters on a nacelle before, so they don't exist unless in an alternate universe? Really?
You've just said that the NX has cannons and the Conni Refit has cannon fire. Put 'em together and you have the Kelvins weapons. It's not hard. Where do you think the Conni Refit got it's cannons from? Technology tested on the Kelvin maybe?
Ships have been built on the ground before. Also, citation needed that the prime Ent was built in space.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Doesn't matter what you say, most of the plot for TFA was simply copied and pasted from ANH, which as I said is my primary issue with it.