You're badly underestimating the damage contribution of Nightmare Wizardry. First, Combat Advantage is a 15% damage bonus (not 10%), plus a charisma bonus, plus any combat advantage boosting you may have from artifacts or companion bonuses.
You can gain up to 40% damage from combat advantage with the right build.
Triggering is no problem whatsoever if you are using abilities that apply damage over time. One cast of Conduit of Ice can hit 5 enemies 7 times = 35 hits. If you trigger eye of the storm, then use CoI, that's 35 crits that can trigger nightmare wizardry. Icy Terrain works the same. It's a big loss.
ok i read it clearly because things you are saying weren't going with test i made a couple of month just before v3 (i trade nightmare wizardry with the second t4 power and ended with elemental empowerement and got the result as getting more damage in dongeon than with nightmare wizardry. the test were old test so maybe not up to date. As far as i saw over time spell do not crit multiple time on same target, if you launch it a target if you crit in the launch all damage are crit but you get only one crit count, same if damage are not crit, all following damage will not be crit. PS if you hit multi target it will be the same for the over time damage but intial shot are independant for crit per target.
second point nightmare wizardry only apply in one target so that also may explain the result of my test.
last point but maybe value change when i checked on my character on that time CA was giving 10% damage (and no char bonus). ps i hadn't bonus from equip at that time
So for me if you strike infinite time 5 target, each target will individually have around 8% chance (with 40% crit) to individualy get CA on them. So after depending of the real value to count bonus added + also the fact that with an other player you still can get CA if both of you are not too far from target. it for best of the best case with full CA bonus and the way you count it 4% medium damage.
and honestly for damage value i honestly make some doubt on it especially for char part. I'm practicaly sure that CA have different value and work depending of classe you play (for simple CA bonus maybe CHar for some class but not for other). but here i need to check it this evening when i will be at home
Ps i also count 40% chance crit to be more in the change of the new work of ye of the storm
There are several very lackluster feats. With Nightmare Wizardry gone I look at the feat tree and think "well I have 10 points to spend...I guess I'll put them in ______. Not that it will help much." Things like Severe Reaction, Brisk Transport, Energy Recovery, Unrestrained Chaos, and Reaper's Touch are a pu-pu platter of useless feats that people are going to be stuck choosing from.
Sadly I can't take those points and put them into the heroic tree where I can find things more useful. Those listed feats are that bad.
ok i read it clearly because things you are saying weren't going with test i made a couple of month just before v3 (i trade nightmare wizardry with the second t4 power and ended with elemental empowerement and got the result as getting more damage in dongeon than with nightmare wizardry. the test were old test so maybe not up to date. As far as i saw over time spell do not crit multiple time on same target, if you launch it a target if you crit in the launch all damage are crit but you get only one crit count, same if damage are not crit, all following damage will not be crit. PS if you hit multi target it will be the same for the over time damage but intial shot are independant for crit per target.
second point nightmare wizardry only apply in one target so that also may explain the result of my test.
last point but maybe value change when i checked on my character on that time CA was giving 10% damage (and no char bonus). ps i hadn't bonus from equip at that time
So for me if you strike infinite time 5 target, each target will individually have around 8% chance (with 40% crit) to individualy get CA on them. So after depending of the real value to count bonus added + also the fact that with an other player you still can get CA if both of you are not too far from target. it for best of the best case with full CA bonus and the way you count it 4% medium damage.
and honestly for damage value i honestly make some doubt on it especially for char part. I'm practicaly sure that CA have different value and work depending of classe you play (for simple CA bonus maybe CHar for some class but not for other). but here i need to check it this evening when i will be at home
Ps i also count 40% chance crit to be more in the change of the new work of ye of the storm
This is from a parse on the preview server of a run through Temple of Spiders. The group was me (a CW), 2 SW's, A GWF, and a DC. The total kill count for all members in the party was 334. Nightmare Wizardy procced 208 times during that run. That means approximately 62% of the enemies in that dungeon died while the group was doing 20-30% more damage to them from Combat Advantage just from Nightmare Wizardry. Now, maybe the bosses had it hit them more than once, but there were probably lots of other enemies that died too quickly for it to be applied. So the numbers aren't exact. Nonetheless, that should give you an idea that it procs a whole lot and significantly contributes to individual and party damage.
Just wanted to post this here first, before i go to the other thread, but what have other people found in regards to:
Conduit of Ice: This power now takes 1.5 seconds to fire (up from .98 seconds).
Conduit of Ice: This power has had its recharge time reduced to 13 seconds (down from 18 seconds).
Conduit of Ice: This power has had its damage reduced by roughly 33%.
Fanning the Flame: This power now takes 1.5 seconds to fire (up from .6 seconds).
Fanning the Flame: This power has had its recharge time increased to 22 seconds (up from 15 seconds).
I've found these fire up times way to long. I'm going to talk from a PvP point of view, as right now i use FtF on TAB, CoI, IR/IT/RoE + EF. By increasing the times of these two powers, it has made getting a full rotation up, especially vs GF charging, HR roots, TR silence and GWF, impossible. It's going to take 3 seconds to get through 2 powers, that is assuming i don't get interrupted - which barely ever happens or i have to teleport away stopping the cast.
With CoI losing it's damage mitigation (for thaum), plus 33% damage reduction, basically means it isn't the #1 option anymore, but i don't even know if it'll be rotation plausible come Mod4 for PvP period.
FtF will also basically be useless and out of the rotation, as there will be better options then a 22 second cooldown 1.5 second fire up skill (remembering that off mastery it DOES NOT add smoulder, and on mastery it DOES NOT benefit from the PvP set bonus). It will mean that MoF CWs will have to rely on crit (via cc) to add smoulder, or have to forgo using ray of frost (again this is pvp related).
It seems to me that for PvP purposes, Shield will be the new must have, followed by IT.
CoI's casting time has been changed to 1 second. Damage reduced by 17%.
FtF's casting time has been changed to 1 second. Damage reduced by 33%.
I'd like a nerfed feat that procs off of any form of damage, does 400% weapon damage, ignores dr and apparently has no icd too, but I guess we're stuck with our own classes, right?
but let's go back on topic.
Do you even have a wizard. You are just whining cause you have to actually fight now.
All you've done is compliment the nerfs and complain about the buffs. I don't see any evidence you even have a geared wizard or that you've tested a nerfed wizard.
You don't even understand how the wizard's tree works.
Did you even read the past posts before that one? you think I said that just out of the blue? Also judging by your past posts the only troll I see here is you.
Also I'm a whisperknife non perma rogue, so believe me, I have always been fighting.
Also I love that you think that others can only give their opinion on a class if they have a lv 60 well geared of that class. If tomorrow you see a post where they say that shocking execution will always make 100k damage to everyone, will you just keep quiet because you don't have a lv 60 well equiped TR?
now instead of bringing back some useless posts from 3 pages ago better get back to discussing more useful things.
I'd like a nerfed feat that procs off of any form of damage, does 400% weapon damage, ignores dr and apparently has no icd too, but I guess we're stuck with our own classes, right?
but let's go back on topic.
From previous feedback in this thread, people have asked nightmare wizardry to be moved to make the tree more "attractive" by making it renegade exclusive.
Ppl who don't have a main CW...?
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
Did you even read the past posts before that one? you think I said that just out of the blue? Also judging by your past posts the only troll I see here is you.
Also I'm a whisperknife non perma rogue, so believe me, I have always been fighting.
Also I love that you think that others can only give their opinion on a class if they have a lv 60 well geared of that class. If tomorrow you see a post where they say that shocking execution will always make 100k damage to everyone, will you just keep quiet because you don't have a lv 60 well equiped TR?
now instead of bringing back some useless posts from 3 pages ago better get back to discussing more useful things.
Belive me the most problem come from the "400% weapon damage, ignores dr and apparently has no icd "
the perma lock can be avoided but the dmr ignore is a big big problem cuz vs CW usless skill tab features like ITC block unstoppable astral shild steely defense avalanche exaltation a.army courage breaker Sprint (SW/GWF)& tenacity the are no more woth slotting or stacking and those all are pvp skills stats and base features.
This problem we will have with HR too.
I have 15.4 k CW p.vorpal stone pvp set all what i need always first in dps score i have full PVP boons .
And i know this mod 4 change will rip to all 5 class out from pvp.(SW DC GF TR GWF)
+ I can hit 200 k ice knife too in live so the big big excutioner or IBS are weak in my eyes cuz they have no prone effect .
Also in live i can kill a 18k GWF if he is far from me and not watching for 3 sec "HV rules in pvp after mod4 i not soo sure".
MY CW good old lady lucy is more like a Juggernaut Golem with pure brutal DPS and super controll.
But I've been advocating putting the Renegade back to what it's suppose to be, the crit/burst dps tree and not the charity wizard tree.
I'm supporting that, although I have nothing against some party buffs. And let's face it: these buffs aren't earth shaking. HRs can give combat advantage, too.
When over year ago I chose Renegade, the burst damage that may happen (crit+charisma+combat advantage) was most appealing. It sounded like a chance for outstanding damage burst. Now Renegade is a waste. People like to specialize. You want to control crowd - go Oppressor. You want to land damage - go Thauma. You want to be weak at controlling, deal low damage despite all your crit+cha+Combat Adv.(and have horrible time in PvP!) - you may want to go Renegade. What is the point of going along Renegade line, stacking on crit, have mxed cha and as high combat adv. as possible, if you will never see effect. This is why... take off or decrease ICD on EotS!
Bids he then the spruces to singer him an anthems!
And the Woodsie Lord binders them fleshes to stone!
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dingleberrytruthMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 25Arc User
Make the EotS proc off damage done instead of X% for encounter/at-will/daily. With the ICD being added, it's important for Wizards to time their biggest Encounters and Dailies with EotS procs, so having a way to proc it more reliably when off cooldown is necessary. I would give it a 20% chance to proc of any damage, which would help CW's manage procs without necessarily firing off an encounter they'd like to use DURING an EotS.
Does this make sense to anyone or how the cons of ICD are any different from this proposal?
Barring any fixes to coi or steal time, this does not change anything.
You still end up with EoTs with a high likelihood of proccing off the wrong side of your encounter cycle, and enjoying crits with at-wills. So long as ICD is in play, the same exact pitfalls come into play.
Does colored text make posts look smarter? see a lot around here lately even when it isn't following a feedback format.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited July 2014
Go on to the test server and play around with EotS and you'll see what I mean. It's why I used the blue color text to signify feedback, and not just random noise.
Right now, in order to proc EotS reliably, your best chance comes from using Encounter spells. The problem is that in order to maximize damage, you should cast your Encounter spells during EotS. The problem that people who are actually testing this stuff are finding is that a majority of the time their Encounter spells are on CD while EotS is up, minimizing it's actual effectiveness.
If EotS proc'd off just damage, you'd be able to reliably proc it without having to cycle through all your encounters, HOPING for a proc.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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dingleberrytruthMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 25Arc User
Go on to the test server and play around with EotS and you'll see what I mean. It's why I used the blue color text to signify feedback, and not just random noise.
Right now, in order to proc EotS reliably, your best chance comes from using Encounter spells. The problem is that in order to maximize damage, you should cast your Encounter spells during EotS. The problem that people who are actually testing this stuff are finding is that a majority of the time their Encounter spells are on CD while EotS is up, minimizing it's actual effectiveness.
If EotS proc'd off just damage, you'd be able to reliably proc it without having to cycle through all your encounters, HOPING for a proc.
And this is why, I'm still wondering...
You claimed EoTs is overpowered in Live, agreed.
Your reply to my earlier post was practically screaming about CoI and Steal Time multi proc mechanics as a bug and no changes have been made so far.
And unless you didn't know, we usually use encounters that debuff FIRST, so using Steal time or CoI does fit in with our rotation NICELY, which you also mentioned reliably procs EoTs.
So we have 1 mastery, 3 encounters. Let's just assume we are still using shard like Live and it isn't the useless meatball like it is in preview which many of us won't be using anymore.
Mastery: CoI, 1stEnc: Shard 2ndEnc: Steal Time 3rd: Sudden Storm
Are you sure you want to use shard or sudden storm as your opening Encounter?
So tell me again, how does your solution change anything? Unless of course you're one of those wizards who refuse to use HV just to be different then I rest my case.
Please think it through before posting. Especially in color.
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seventhpillarMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
Bro, give it up. We clearly are the minorities here. I highly doubt anything will happen in our favor. All they will tell you is our crit-charisma-ca-crit severity damage is because we are getting buffed by the other tree. This feedback thread is very thaum/oppressor centric. Unless you want to help their cause, you will just fall into deaf ears. My last post on this thread. It's been real.
The reason behind this thread being Oppressor/Thauma-centric is that probably Renegades were very tiny minority already.
And I'm not giving up, unless Devs tell us what they are planning to do, to make Renegade viable both in PvE and PvP. Which factor of being renegade should be appealing? What might make up for not being controller and not being pure dps? We have been throwing lots of ideas. I'd be most happy with high-crit-cha-combat advantage-fast-casting Renegade, since it will help in PvP, make game-play more smooth and give renegades sort of additional rene-only speciality. I'd love Devs to respond. There's still time before M4 comes live.
Bids he then the spruces to singer him an anthems!
And the Woodsie Lord binders them fleshes to stone!
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kieranmtornMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 382Arc User
Bro, give it up. We clearly are the minorities here. I highly doubt anything will happen in our favor. All they will tell you is our crit-charisma-ca-crit severity damage is because we are getting buffed by the other tree. This feedback thread is very thaum/oppressor centric. Unless you want to help their cause, you will just fall into deaf ears. My last post on this thread. It's been real.
Yeah, pretty much. And to add insult to injury, Renegade now will have a 5 feat point penalty imposed on it (tier 2 being useless garbage that you have to buy past to get to the core skills). So you'll have even fewer useful feats than before.
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dingleberrytruthMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 25Arc User
The problem is (and my last post on this got moved, but it's very salient to the test server changes) is that since EotS is currently bugged on Live to proc at a much higher rate than intended, people have a false sense of how much it should proc and how long the uptime should be. So you're not necessarily comparing apples to apples.
In fact, when I get a chance this afternoon, I'll test on Live vs Test the uptime on EotS NOT using ST or CoI, to get a baseline. And I also have a feeling that they can't fix CoI and ST without a significant coding rewrite, which is why it's simpler for them to go with a ICD.
Unless, they do ANY changes to Steal Time and CoI, then why still push on with this direction that you're suggesting?
Under Live, Thaumas do a lot more debuffing/support (in addition to overwhelming dps) than a renegade. By means of a consistently high uptime both in application and maintaining them.
Renegades are dependent on a very high crit uptime to fully provide their buffs which are supposedly offered in their tree. It procs often with EoTs in live. But the durations are very short indeed. Coupled with latency, a 4 second buff provides only 1 or 2 casts. Also, I wouldn't expect rubberbanding to be fixed anytime soon in CN as an example. We have experienced casting 'interrupted' steal time, chill strike which doesn't launch, shard which requires multiple recasts. So with all these REAL factors in play, there are more issues with renegades, buff/debuff durations and ICDs than on paper.
It just gets worse when coupled with the environment in game atm. This is not hyperbole. The situation for Renegades is grim. But this is on Live of course.
Then we throw in ICD. The pitfalls which I've highlighted in earlier posts. This is not hyperbole. EoTs needs its uptime. Nerf its effectiveness by other means.
I decided to test out oppressor on the dummies, just to do a full circle for a general idea.
Opp - 3,956,812 damage, 10,393 EncDPS
So, thaum gets the damage, oppressor some damage with control, what exactly does renegade get to make them special? Something that only benefits group play by providing combat advantage. Renegades need to have more than just nightmare wizardry to make them viable after the death of EoTS.
Won't nightmare wizardry be obsolete in mod4? GWF and GF marks give CA now.
I should clarify how shield works. It is NOT additive DR. It is not pushing wizards to the DR cap. It operates to absorb damage after their damage resistance has activated on it. So in practical terms it causes their DR to act as if it were X% greater than it is.
So for example
A wizard has 25% DR and his R1 shield is stable. YOu hit him with 1000 damage. The damage calculation would go as follows
1000 * .75 * .5 = 375
NOT 1000 * .25 = 250
This is a really important differentiation because their DR is still very important to how they resist damage because the shield acts after it.
Not to mention they do lose a full encounter slot to keep this multiplicative absorb on (or they activate the push and lose it, either way).
So this is definitely not putting wizards anywhere near Fighters OR the Resist cap on average. While it is possible a wizard is stacking defense and could get up that high, it is fairly unlikely to remain all that long
For reference purposes with R3 Stable and Unstable (Mastery and non Mastery) a wizard would need the following BASE DR values to reach the 80% resistance cap.
Stable: 53.36%
Unstable: 59.79%
Mastery Stable: 44.44%
Mastery Unstable: 57.12%
Thanks for the details. Youve probably thought about this, but this potentially makes it even MORE powerful since it seems like ARP wont be able to negate it... So you suggested base DR plays a big roll, but actually most classes in PVP run MORE than 25% ARP, so CWs BASE DR doesnt come unto play being that its fully negated, and now ontop of that, this CW shield cant be mitigated by DR? Since your calculations im guessing only work in another level of DR like Tenacity? Maybe I am wrong but dont see how ARP can negate part of the shield if its on another level like this...
Like you posted above 1000 damage comes in, assume 25% base DR & on Mastery (broken = 50%) slot but attack is dealt with a 33% ARP (alot of GWFs/GFs have this or more) ARP.
I assume it works like this then...
1000 comes in, 25% DR is mitigated by 33% ARP to 0% DR (doesnt go negative). So THEN shield steps up and mitigates (broken) 50% of the damage on its own level, and THEN tenacity after that.
So now its at 500 (50% of 1000). Then tenacity kicks in? So another -100 (@ 20%) down to 400 damage....
So total it still was a 60% DR boost to the CW (with tenacity). Lets compare to a fighter. My GF has about 50% DR. BUT! Alot of that is mitigated via ARP.
So 1000 comes in, lets say attacker only has 25% ARP versus my 50% DR. Now my GF takes 750 damage. net 20% tenacity = 600 damage....
So on 1000 damage the CW took 400 and GF took 600.... Unless I am understanding this right...?
The huge advantage with CWs and tenacity is that tenacity (and I assume shield works this way too?) benefits squishy targets the MOST, so for a CW in pvp there is actually no point to stack DR because of ARP, this allows tenacity @ 20% to be a FULL 20% DR boost to them, where as on a GF or GWF with 50% base DR its about HALF as effective....
Even before that armpen part, it doesn't make any sense. Even leave out tenacity at first...
GF/GWF/Etc = 50% DR. 1000 damage comes in, negate 50% = 500 damage.
Wizard with shield takes 375.
You could make the argument of shield and unstoppable, but it is not valid. Lets look at GF shield. There is a duration on it, you cannot use encounters from it, and some things (ray of frost as an example) penetrate it. It is directional, and you have to activate it. So this would be compared to the CW's dodge more than shield spell.
GWF unstoppable? Less DR than that, has to be activated, and doesn't last as long.
I understand you lose an encounter, but you still have three, like anyone else. You compare shield on tab to any other tab, and its not even close.
Add in the above wrt Armpen and tenacity, and it is worse. I may not PVP as a CW, but that does not make my feedback invalid. It does not change the fact that this shield makes the CW much tankier than the fighters/melee classes.
Even before that armpen part, it doesn't make any sense. Even leave out tenacity at first...
GF/GWF/Etc = 50% DR. 1000 damage comes in, negate 50% = 500 damage.
Wizard with shield takes 375.
You could make the argument of shield and unstoppable, but it is not valid. Lets look at GF shield. There is a duration on it, you cannot use encounters from it, and some things (ray of frost as an example) penetrate it. It is directional, and you have to activate it. So this would be compared to the CW's dodge more than shield spell.
GWF unstoppable? Less DR than that, has to be activated, and doesn't last as long.
I understand you lose an encounter, but you still have three, like anyone else. You compare shield on tab to any other tab, and its not even close.
Add in the above wrt Armpen and tenacity, and it is worse. I may not PVP as a CW, but that does not make my feedback invalid. It does not change the fact that this shield makes the CW much tankier than the fighters/melee classes.
Crush, IF my post above is correct, and you want to shoot to make it as tanky as a GF or GWF class, Shield in its own layer should be about 25% DR boost then....
This would make STILL BASE DR ineffective for CW in pvp, Shield takes out 25% down to 750 (just like a fighter) THEN tenacity another 20%. This would match that.... I think its TWICE as powerful as it should be.
Even at 35% broken - 1000 comes in (DR mitigated by ARP) then 35% gone = 650 dmg then 20% gone(tenacity) = 520.
So @ 35%shield + 20% tenacity a CW has 48% DR....
@ 25% shield + 20% tenacity a CW has 40% DR....
If you want to have it boost BASE DR and therefor able to mitigated by ARP, I think in the range of 30% would be fair since base of 20-25% +30% = about the range of a Fighter.... AND this has the advantage of making BASE DR something worth stacking since you can mitigate as much ARP as possible WITH base DR then shield adds the bonus.
IMO Id probably rather see it stack ontop of DR than in its own layer.
Comments
ok i read it clearly because things you are saying weren't going with test i made a couple of month just before v3 (i trade nightmare wizardry with the second t4 power and ended with elemental empowerement and got the result as getting more damage in dongeon than with nightmare wizardry. the test were old test so maybe not up to date. As far as i saw over time spell do not crit multiple time on same target, if you launch it a target if you crit in the launch all damage are crit but you get only one crit count, same if damage are not crit, all following damage will not be crit. PS if you hit multi target it will be the same for the over time damage but intial shot are independant for crit per target.
second point nightmare wizardry only apply in one target so that also may explain the result of my test.
last point but maybe value change when i checked on my character on that time CA was giving 10% damage (and no char bonus). ps i hadn't bonus from equip at that time
So for me if you strike infinite time 5 target, each target will individually have around 8% chance (with 40% crit) to individualy get CA on them. So after depending of the real value to count bonus added + also the fact that with an other player you still can get CA if both of you are not too far from target. it for best of the best case with full CA bonus and the way you count it 4% medium damage.
and honestly for damage value i honestly make some doubt on it especially for char part. I'm practicaly sure that CA have different value and work depending of classe you play (for simple CA bonus maybe CHar for some class but not for other). but here i need to check it this evening when i will be at home
Ps i also count 40% chance crit to be more in the change of the new work of ye of the storm
Sadly I can't take those points and put them into the heroic tree where I can find things more useful. Those listed feats are that bad.
This is from a parse on the preview server of a run through Temple of Spiders. The group was me (a CW), 2 SW's, A GWF, and a DC. The total kill count for all members in the party was 334. Nightmare Wizardy procced 208 times during that run. That means approximately 62% of the enemies in that dungeon died while the group was doing 20-30% more damage to them from Combat Advantage just from Nightmare Wizardry. Now, maybe the bosses had it hit them more than once, but there were probably lots of other enemies that died too quickly for it to be applied. So the numbers aren't exact. Nonetheless, that should give you an idea that it procs a whole lot and significantly contributes to individual and party damage.
FtF's casting time has been changed to 1 second. Damage reduced by 33%.
Please see this patch note.
We really need these info be updated so that players won't be confused.
Oh ****, how did i miss this? I scour the CW changes thread often, and didn't even see those changes -.-
Thanks for this.
Go here. It's an updated list of all the CW changes. I made it specifically because it's such a pain to try and keep track of changes as they happen.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?708161-Updated-list-of-Changes-for-Control-Wizard-s-in-Module-4
Do you even have a wizard. You are just whining cause you have to actually fight now.
All you've done is compliment the nerfs and complain about the buffs. I don't see any evidence you even have a geared wizard or that you've tested a nerfed wizard.
You don't even understand how the wizard's tree works.
Go back to your own forum rogue troll.
Also I'm a whisperknife non perma rogue, so believe me, I have always been fighting.
Also I love that you think that others can only give their opinion on a class if they have a lv 60 well geared of that class. If tomorrow you see a post where they say that shocking execution will always make 100k damage to everyone, will you just keep quiet because you don't have a lv 60 well equiped TR?
now instead of bringing back some useless posts from 3 pages ago better get back to discussing more useful things.
You pretty much summed up zone chat and general discussion on forums after aug 14...
Its a very big loss in damage for thaum...
Nightmare wizardry is an awesome feat and it's a party buff also.
I agree completely. They were your posts and they aren't useful at all.
Ppl who don't have a main CW...?
Belive me the most problem come from the "400% weapon damage, ignores dr and apparently has no icd "
the perma lock can be avoided but the dmr ignore is a big big problem cuz vs CW usless skill tab features like ITC block unstoppable astral shild steely defense avalanche exaltation a.army courage breaker Sprint (SW/GWF)& tenacity the are no more woth slotting or stacking and those all are pvp skills stats and base features.
This problem we will have with HR too.
I have 15.4 k CW p.vorpal stone pvp set all what i need always first in dps score i have full PVP boons .
And i know this mod 4 change will rip to all 5 class out from pvp.(SW DC GF TR GWF)
+ I can hit 200 k ice knife too in live so the big big excutioner or IBS are weak in my eyes cuz they have no prone effect .
Also in live i can kill a 18k GWF if he is far from me and not watching for 3 sec "HV rules in pvp after mod4 i not soo sure".
MY CW good old lady lucy is more like a Juggernaut Golem with pure brutal DPS and super controll.
Nightmare Wizardry is being moved to the 3rd tier of Renegade so people can't dipped into it, and the debuff remains unique to Renegades.
I'm supporting that, although I have nothing against some party buffs. And let's face it: these buffs aren't earth shaking. HRs can give combat advantage, too.
When over year ago I chose Renegade, the burst damage that may happen (crit+charisma+combat advantage) was most appealing. It sounded like a chance for outstanding damage burst. Now Renegade is a waste. People like to specialize. You want to control crowd - go Oppressor. You want to land damage - go Thauma. You want to be weak at controlling, deal low damage despite all your crit+cha+Combat Adv.(and have horrible time in PvP!) - you may want to go Renegade. What is the point of going along Renegade line, stacking on crit, have mxed cha and as high combat adv. as possible, if you will never see effect. This is why... take off or decrease ICD on EotS!
Does this make sense to anyone or how the cons of ICD are any different from this proposal?
Barring any fixes to coi or steal time, this does not change anything.
You still end up with EoTs with a high likelihood of proccing off the wrong side of your encounter cycle, and enjoying crits with at-wills. So long as ICD is in play, the same exact pitfalls come into play.
Does colored text make posts look smarter? see a lot around here lately even when it isn't following a feedback format.
Right now, in order to proc EotS reliably, your best chance comes from using Encounter spells. The problem is that in order to maximize damage, you should cast your Encounter spells during EotS. The problem that people who are actually testing this stuff are finding is that a majority of the time their Encounter spells are on CD while EotS is up, minimizing it's actual effectiveness.
If EotS proc'd off just damage, you'd be able to reliably proc it without having to cycle through all your encounters, HOPING for a proc.
And this is why, I'm still wondering...
You claimed EoTs is overpowered in Live, agreed.
Your reply to my earlier post was practically screaming about CoI and Steal Time multi proc mechanics as a bug and no changes have been made so far.
And unless you didn't know, we usually use encounters that debuff FIRST, so using Steal time or CoI does fit in with our rotation NICELY, which you also mentioned reliably procs EoTs.
So we have 1 mastery, 3 encounters. Let's just assume we are still using shard like Live and it isn't the useless meatball like it is in preview which many of us won't be using anymore.
Mastery: CoI, 1stEnc: Shard 2ndEnc: Steal Time 3rd: Sudden Storm
CoI>Steal Time> EoTs Procs> Cast Shard > Sudden Storm > Shard
Are you sure you want to use shard or sudden storm as your opening Encounter?
So tell me again, how does your solution change anything? Unless of course you're one of those wizards who refuse to use HV just to be different then I rest my case.
Please think it through before posting. Especially in color.
Bro, give it up. We clearly are the minorities here. I highly doubt anything will happen in our favor. All they will tell you is our crit-charisma-ca-crit severity damage is because we are getting buffed by the other tree. This feedback thread is very thaum/oppressor centric. Unless you want to help their cause, you will just fall into deaf ears. My last post on this thread. It's been real.
And I'm not giving up, unless Devs tell us what they are planning to do, to make Renegade viable both in PvE and PvP. Which factor of being renegade should be appealing? What might make up for not being controller and not being pure dps? We have been throwing lots of ideas. I'd be most happy with high-crit-cha-combat advantage-fast-casting Renegade, since it will help in PvP, make game-play more smooth and give renegades sort of additional rene-only speciality. I'd love Devs to respond. There's still time before M4 comes live.
Yeah, pretty much. And to add insult to injury, Renegade now will have a 5 feat point penalty imposed on it (tier 2 being useless garbage that you have to buy past to get to the core skills). So you'll have even fewer useful feats than before.
Unless, they do ANY changes to Steal Time and CoI, then why still push on with this direction that you're suggesting?
Under Live, Thaumas do a lot more debuffing/support (in addition to overwhelming dps) than a renegade. By means of a consistently high uptime both in application and maintaining them.
Renegades are dependent on a very high crit uptime to fully provide their buffs which are supposedly offered in their tree. It procs often with EoTs in live. But the durations are very short indeed. Coupled with latency, a 4 second buff provides only 1 or 2 casts. Also, I wouldn't expect rubberbanding to be fixed anytime soon in CN as an example. We have experienced casting 'interrupted' steal time, chill strike which doesn't launch, shard which requires multiple recasts. So with all these REAL factors in play, there are more issues with renegades, buff/debuff durations and ICDs than on paper.
It just gets worse when coupled with the environment in game atm. This is not hyperbole. The situation for Renegades is grim. But this is on Live of course.
Then we throw in ICD. The pitfalls which I've highlighted in earlier posts. This is not hyperbole. EoTs needs its uptime. Nerf its effectiveness by other means.
Won't nightmare wizardry be obsolete in mod4? GWF and GF marks give CA now.
I don't play GF/GWF so that's complete news to me. That is the death of the poor renegade.
Thanks for the details. Youve probably thought about this, but this potentially makes it even MORE powerful since it seems like ARP wont be able to negate it... So you suggested base DR plays a big roll, but actually most classes in PVP run MORE than 25% ARP, so CWs BASE DR doesnt come unto play being that its fully negated, and now ontop of that, this CW shield cant be mitigated by DR? Since your calculations im guessing only work in another level of DR like Tenacity? Maybe I am wrong but dont see how ARP can negate part of the shield if its on another level like this...
Like you posted above 1000 damage comes in, assume 25% base DR & on Mastery (broken = 50%) slot but attack is dealt with a 33% ARP (alot of GWFs/GFs have this or more) ARP.
I assume it works like this then...
1000 comes in, 25% DR is mitigated by 33% ARP to 0% DR (doesnt go negative). So THEN shield steps up and mitigates (broken) 50% of the damage on its own level, and THEN tenacity after that.
So now its at 500 (50% of 1000). Then tenacity kicks in? So another -100 (@ 20%) down to 400 damage....
So total it still was a 60% DR boost to the CW (with tenacity). Lets compare to a fighter. My GF has about 50% DR. BUT! Alot of that is mitigated via ARP.
So 1000 comes in, lets say attacker only has 25% ARP versus my 50% DR. Now my GF takes 750 damage. net 20% tenacity = 600 damage....
So on 1000 damage the CW took 400 and GF took 600.... Unless I am understanding this right...?
The huge advantage with CWs and tenacity is that tenacity (and I assume shield works this way too?) benefits squishy targets the MOST, so for a CW in pvp there is actually no point to stack DR because of ARP, this allows tenacity @ 20% to be a FULL 20% DR boost to them, where as on a GF or GWF with 50% base DR its about HALF as effective....
Maybe you can clarify....
GF/GWF/Etc = 50% DR. 1000 damage comes in, negate 50% = 500 damage.
Wizard with shield takes 375.
You could make the argument of shield and unstoppable, but it is not valid. Lets look at GF shield. There is a duration on it, you cannot use encounters from it, and some things (ray of frost as an example) penetrate it. It is directional, and you have to activate it. So this would be compared to the CW's dodge more than shield spell.
GWF unstoppable? Less DR than that, has to be activated, and doesn't last as long.
I understand you lose an encounter, but you still have three, like anyone else. You compare shield on tab to any other tab, and its not even close.
Add in the above wrt Armpen and tenacity, and it is worse. I may not PVP as a CW, but that does not make my feedback invalid. It does not change the fact that this shield makes the CW much tankier than the fighters/melee classes.
Crush, IF my post above is correct, and you want to shoot to make it as tanky as a GF or GWF class, Shield in its own layer should be about 25% DR boost then....
This would make STILL BASE DR ineffective for CW in pvp, Shield takes out 25% down to 750 (just like a fighter) THEN tenacity another 20%. This would match that.... I think its TWICE as powerful as it should be.
Even at 35% broken - 1000 comes in (DR mitigated by ARP) then 35% gone = 650 dmg then 20% gone(tenacity) = 520.
So @ 35%shield + 20% tenacity a CW has 48% DR....
@ 25% shield + 20% tenacity a CW has 40% DR....
If you want to have it boost BASE DR and therefor able to mitigated by ARP, I think in the range of 30% would be fair since base of 20-25% +30% = about the range of a Fighter.... AND this has the advantage of making BASE DR something worth stacking since you can mitigate as much ARP as possible WITH base DR then shield adds the bonus.
IMO Id probably rather see it stack ontop of DR than in its own layer.