There's no "cap". The 15%/800% is the base damage of the ability, then you get anything that would normally boost your damage added to it.
There's no way that I can boost the damage of any of my spells 4x. Add up all the buffs you want, like 30% from High Vizier et al., you will never, ever get to 400% like I'm currently seeing.
That would imply an internal cooldown of 5 secs. Wasn't there a 15 sec cooldown? If it is reduced than that ,to me, is a good thing since i'm against internal cooldowns. However if people think it is overpowered,instead of bypassing all resistances,like necrotic damage does, it could have a 50% ignore instead so that it would still be viable at pvp and pve.Also,and correct me if i'm wrong on this, i see it being activated by Icy terrain and not plaguefire ticks. Does the storm spell proc it too?
Currently on preview I fought 2 different cws with similar specs and with just at wills were killing me after 4 procs of this feature for 10k damage each this is utter overkill(this only took a few seconds to accomplish with dot weapon enchants). Even with entangling force this was going off as well with dots doing 10k damage as well this needs a serious tone down in pvp.
Shield giving a perm 50% dr buff is also way over the top as well, this needs to be toned down cws have the dr of a prot gf
my perspective as a gf
In order for Cws to gain this DR and Survivability they have to sacrifice a lot of dps especially if shield is slotted in mastery. It's a tradeoff which makes perfect sense.Also Shields DR diminishes as Cws get hit so it's not a constant DR. All in all i feel its very well balanced as it is. Now assailing force is only a single damage feat and it's not so much that it procs often but that it does necrotic like damage. I'd argue that a 50% damage ignore,instead of 100% which is now,would solve the problem.
In order for Cws to gain this DR and Survivability they have to sacrifice a lot of dps especially if shield is slotted in mastery. It's a tradeoff which makes perfect sense.Also Shields DR diminishes as Cws get hit so it's not a constant DR. All in all i feel its very well balanced as it is. Now assailing force is only a single damage feat and it's not so much that it procs often but that it does necrotic like damage. I'd argue that a 50% damage ignore,instead of 100% which is now,would solve the problem.
so dose prot gf and sentinel gwf and even then they will hardly reach so easy 50% dr it is just to much and for u 10k+ assielng force procs are not to much? it is even to much in pve gwf and gf at wills hits less then 1k per hit and this feat ads 10k to cws at wills and dots
0.0 this need to be fixed asap. It happened to me in preview today, even assailant force seems to have problems damage wise. I was like "lol what?????"
So it'll hold 2 atcks only, so not realy usefull, on pvp it'll worst, cause any non stupid person will just use they at will 2 times and then finish the cw. on pve those raged minions will make shield useless. so making the maths shield buff is just another stupid, useless buff.
So it'll hold 2 atcks only, so not realy usefull, on pvp it'll worst, cause any non stupid person will just use they at will 2 times and then finish the cw. on pve those raged minions will make shield useless. so making the maths shield buff is just another stupid, useless buff.
Even when its completely broken, the shield will give +35/50% DR depending on mastery or not; I'm sorry, but I don't see how that is a useless buff?
So it'll hold 2 atcks only, so not realy usefull, on pvp it'll worst, cause any non stupid person will just use they at will 2 times and then finish the cw. on pve those raged minions will make shield useless. so making the maths shield buff is just another stupid, useless buff.
This made me lol! CW shield in Mastery even BROKEN is 2x as strong as Unstoppable DR....
I feel like they over nerf and over buff... GWFs lost prones and control because (mainly) CWs... Now CW DR boosted and GWFs lose prones...
W.e
Assailing force needs to be fixed to a 10-15sec ICD and NEEDS to repsect DR/and damage buffs.... This is tenebrous all over. Honestly no attacks should ignore DR
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited July 2014
I'm happy to see people complaining about the CW in PvP now...means Cryptic is moving in the right direction
Abad I looked at your numbers for Assailant that you posted and the max was 22k, 16k avg.
The max was a crit and seems exactly what you would expect from a crit on a 6800 damage spell. Not really sure what your seeing as broken. What debuffs did you have, buffs, HV set, perfect vorp, power, ArmP ect you get the point. Those numbers seem in line.
Consider the cw had consistent at will damage with CoI AE debuff and dot, storm procs. Now there is no more debuff and the class abilities are almost useless (storm) and the damage is random spikey procs that the cw does not control. The shield and the additional CC helps but it takes alot longer to kill anything and the CWs dps has been cut in half.
Now the board is getting lit up by pvpers (non cws) crying for nerfs before their free kills get taken away.
After testing it further i have come to agree with a previous post,which stated that it is underpowered in pve and quite powerful in pvp. In pve its damage output isn't significant because it is a single target power with only a percentage chance of activating. But in pvp it does significant amounts of damage,that are refreshed. To be honest i hate internal cooldowns so i would suggest to not go down that path since it will make it unusable,like Eye of the storm. An alternative would be to change it so that weapon enchants,such as plaguefire, don't activate it with their dots.Also make it so that only encounter powers activate it. That way no cw will be able to kill other players by just spamming icy ray. Another alternative would be to reduce its damage output by say 30% but make it an Area of Effect feat with a target cap of say 5 to 10 which,again, cannot be activated by weapon enchants and at-wills but by encounter powers only.
A better way IMO that it could work is give it an ICD of like 1 second, but a MUCH MUCH lower proc chance. Also it SHOULD respect DR and NOT proc off of "all source of damage" but maybe JUST encounters and at wills.
This brings it back up into the realm of being PVE feasible (make at 1 sec ICD its stil ltoo strong in AOE?) But in PVP the lower proc chance AND DR respect makes this less OP.
Now the board is getting lit up by pvpers (non cws) crying for nerfs before their free kills get taken away.
I couldn't have said it better myself , strange these people don't appear on the feedback threads for their own classes making suggestions to make their class more fair and not as 'OP' but buff a class that has been not much more than free pvp points for the past two modules and they all rush in here giving suggestions on what to nerf cuz it just isn't fair anymore...
A better way IMO that it could work is give it an ICD of like 1 second, but a MUCH MUCH lower proc chance. Also it SHOULD respect DR and NOT proc off of "all source of damage" but maybe JUST encounters and at wills.
This brings it back up into the realm of being PVE feasible (make at 1 sec ICD its stil ltoo strong in AOE?) But in PVP the lower proc chance AND DR respect makes this less OP.
Thoughts?
Well if you give it both an icd AND a much lower proc rate is like taking it all the way from useful to completely useless and that's not good. You could give it one or the other but not both,i think it's too much. Also if you include the other changes i proposed,about weapon enchants and encounter powers,then further nerfs will be unfair. You see the problem is it does a good amount of damage,that acts like necrotic. That can be corrected by making it Damage Resistance relevant. As always i'm against icd as, in my view,they spoil the fun. See what icd have done to some enchants that none wants because of the silly 20 sec cooldown.
Edit : There has been mentioned that Assailing Force might be bugged and is doing more damage than intended. If that is the case then by fixing it to reflect its tool tip there should be no problem. So for now i will have to take back what I've said about its power in pvp and wait for a confirmation on whether it is bugged or not.If its damage output is as was intended then everything i've said so far stands.
Abad I looked at your numbers for Assailant that you posted and the max was 22k, 16k avg.
The max was a crit and seems exactly what you would expect from a crit on a 6800 damage spell. Not really sure what your seeing as broken. What debuffs did you have, buffs, HV set, perfect vorp, power, ArmP ect you get the point. Those numbers seem in line.
Consider the cw had consistent at will damage with CoI AE debuff and dot, storm procs. Now there is no more debuff and the class abilities are almost useless (storm) and the damage is random spikey procs that the cw does not control. The shield and the additional CC helps but it takes alot longer to kill anything and the CWs dps has been cut in half.
Now the board is getting lit up by pvpers (non cws) crying for nerfs before their free kills get taken away.
Several of your assumptions are incorrect. Assailing Force does not crit. The 22k damage was a non-critical hit. Here's a parse from today of Epic Lostmauth showing the highest Assailing Force damage:
None of those are critical hits and none of them have any boost in effectiveness (the far right column would show 110%, 120%, 130% etc if there were buffs affecting the damage). The only damage boost seems to be from Combat Advantage (flank).
Armor penetration, power and other things should be irrelevant to this calculation. Assailant is supposed to be unresistable damage (meaning it damages the same regardless of defense or armor) and should not be boosted by power or other buffs. It is supposed to be flat damage that is 15% of the targets max HP or 800% weapon damage, whichever is less. It is obvious that it is not doing that damage - it's doing a whole lot more.
I get that CW's have been the PvP punching bag and we should all want that to change. And I get that a lot of damage has been taken away already. But this is a forum to report bugs and Assailing Force is bugged. It is not working as intended.
Armor penetration, power and other things should be irrelevant to this calculation. Assailant is supposed to be unresistable damage (meaning it damages the same regardless of defense or armor) and should not be boosted by power or other buffs. It is supposed to be flat damage that is 15% of the targets max HP or 800% weapon damage, whichever is less. It is obvious that it is not doing that damage - it's doing a whole lot more.
As far as Assailing Force goes when you target someone with it, it checks their HP against the 800% cap and determines which clamp to use. Then it applies your damage bonuses after that. This means as you get stronger it will start doing higher and higher % of target HP.
I couldn't have said it better myself , strange these people don't appear on the feedback threads for their own classes making suggestions to make their class more fair and not as 'OP' but buff a class that has been not much more than free pvp points for the past two modules and they all rush in here giving suggestions on what to nerf cuz it just isn't fair anymore...
This is definitely not true. I have been saying since BEFORE mod 3 that GWFs dealt too much damage. I also just left a detailed post on my mod 4 main GFs forum saying things need a tone down there too.
This is clearly either not WAI or WAY too OP. Its not that people dont want CWs to shine, but its a matter of being completely broken or not.
I think this is a cool power, but the two biggest issues I have with it:
1) Procs off ANY damage
2) Ignores DR.
Fix those two issues and it should be fine.
For PVE purposes though, it doesnt seem like its any good, so IDK honestly how to make it fair....
This is definitely not true. I have been saying since BEFORE mod 3 that GWFs dealt too much damage. I also just left a detailed post on my mod 4 main GFs forum saying things need a tone down there too.
This is clearly either not WAI or WAY too OP. Its not that people dont want CWs to shine, but its a matter of being completely broken or not.
I think this is a cool power, but the two biggest issues I have with it:
1) Procs off ANY damage
2) Ignores DR.
Fix those two issues and it should be fine.
For PVE purposes though, it doesnt seem like its any good, so IDK honestly how to make it fair....
Well, since the latest update Assailing Force has gone from lousy in PvE (~2% of total damage) to really, really good. Maybe too good. It can contribute 10% or more of total damage in a dungeon and 25% or more of your damage on a boss fight. When you consider that that is from one point spent on one feat, albeit a capstone, that's probably too much. They could dial back a fair amount while still making having it be useful in both PvP and PvE. However, as the feat is currently constructed, I don't think there is any possible way to make it both useful but not overpowered in PvP and useful but not overpowered in PvE.
My suggestion is to make it an arcane explosion. Have it still proc off damage to one target every five seconds but then have it do AoE damage to all enemies in a radius. That way you can tune the damage and the radius so that it will not be overpowered in PvP but still give good damage contribution in PvE.
ayroux, the two major problems in the video posted is 1 he take the extreme case where a player stay in the middle of aoe spell so 1 it activate quite a lot but what, most of the case player do not stay inside aoe spell and try to avoid, second whatching the damage show that the GF in front is the exact case where the spell will do maximum damage: a maximum HP player.
Where i agree; yes this spell need to get reduced by the tenacity for the damage. but simply not caped to the 800% damage as it was from beginning simply because the reason is if you not take in case the gear bonus why the point of being geared.
Ayroux your point simply put this spell as useless as it begin with. you are speacking of 1000 damage as it look big but apply on the video you are refering is simply mean 100% time death for the cw as he do not have anything to surpass the regen of the gf. Also if player do not play with plague fire or oponent do not rush on icy terrain, CW will not have anything to do except little damage as a moskito.
BAsed on the video, i do not think things are far from getting perfect, and if you want to be fair do same with CW against for exemple an HR. also try to check what appens in group, the fact that CW can be perma controled, the fact that a CW using shield in tab can only use icy terrain arround him. Also what i can see good on actual change is that it starting to put the oponen class matching. (so to speak when you are facing someone, depending of both class, someone may have a class advantage, mean he should have an higher chance of winning, for exemple in DD normaly a wizard should have problem against ranged class and rogue, but should have advantage against melee fighter. But yes rushing without thinking a little may become harder than actual against CW that are actualy at disavantage against 100% of the class.
do not forget that a CW using both shield and icy terrain, well he only have 2 encounter available for distant shoot and no tab
So for me the only point i agree is that damage should be reduce from tenacity as it suppose to be, just start by that and you probably get the perfect point bacause as far as i read well the comment the GF was also able to win.
sug
this is a sugg for the pvp set of control wizard, pvp set are mainly done for pvp, the change done on shield will probably lead for most player to play with shield on tab. the problem is the 4/4 piece power bonus on pvp set is extra damage and cooldown for tab power. Having shield on tab put this set completly useless. So i should also suggest a rework for this set as he is suppose to give a boost for pvp.
i have many way of thinking an idea but well it should be a rework
I've been going through and reading, not just this thread, but several "nerf" threads in the past few months.
Do you guys know what Problem Reaction Solution is?
Ie.: Company:"We want to nerf this, but we want the people to want the nerf too. Let's make it a big, huge nerf."
Players: "Oh, how about half that nerf please."
Company: "You got it."
DC- Clerice, Gwf-Peevey, HR- Shaft Roundtree, CW-Hoarton, TR- Toe Jam
The damage for Assailing force is not being calculated correctly. I parsed a run of the Heroic Encounter Rescue the Prospectors (Chilltooth) in the Dwarven Valley. Below is the parsed data. Assailant peaked at 22,635 and on average did around 16,000 (the parse shows an average of 5,484 but that is including triggers, only 1/3 of those are actual damage). Assailant is supposed to be capped at 800% of weapon damage. My max weapon damage is 827, so 8*827 = 6616 so clearly that is not working as intended.
you got your answer p45 from gentleman crusher for how assalling force working now
look guys the fact remains most pvp players have high hp and the fact that this spell ignores all DR and procs every 5 seconds for 10k+ on player is a bit ludicrous it's not just form standing in icy terrain it procs off of almost everything icy rays ect i get that it's nice and all but from a pvp perspective what other class can pump out 30-40k dmg in a matter of 15 seconds?
So when is assailant not going to do 800% weapon damage in pvp? Just wondering because you can't have made basically anything in pvp worth 800% weapon damage on purpose.
look guys the fact remains most pvp players have high hp and the fact that this spell ignores all DR and procs every 5 seconds for 10k+ on player is a bit ludicrous it's not just form standing in icy terrain it procs off of almost everything icy rays ect i get that it's nice and all but from a pvp perspective what other class can pump out 30-40k dmg in a matter of 15 seconds?
GWF with insanely high base crit severity + perfect vorpal. . .
TR with SHOCKING EXECUTION.
TR with Perfect Bilethorn
Comments
There's no way that I can boost the damage of any of my spells 4x. Add up all the buffs you want, like 30% from High Vizier et al., you will never, ever get to 400% like I'm currently seeing.
You do understand that we're talking about Maelstrom of Chaos, right?
In order for Cws to gain this DR and Survivability they have to sacrifice a lot of dps especially if shield is slotted in mastery. It's a tradeoff which makes perfect sense.Also Shields DR diminishes as Cws get hit so it's not a constant DR. All in all i feel its very well balanced as it is. Now assailing force is only a single damage feat and it's not so much that it procs often but that it does necrotic like damage. I'd argue that a 50% damage ignore,instead of 100% which is now,would solve the problem.
so dose prot gf and sentinel gwf and even then they will hardly reach so easy 50% dr it is just to much and for u 10k+ assielng force procs are not to much? it is even to much in pve gwf and gf at wills hits less then 1k per hit and this feat ads 10k to cws at wills and dots
So it'll hold 2 atcks only, so not realy usefull, on pvp it'll worst, cause any non stupid person will just use they at will 2 times and then finish the cw. on pve those raged minions will make shield useless. so making the maths shield buff is just another stupid, useless buff.
Even when its completely broken, the shield will give +35/50% DR depending on mastery or not; I'm sorry, but I don't see how that is a useless buff?
Even 35% DR is more than unstoppable.
This made me lol! CW shield in Mastery even BROKEN is 2x as strong as Unstoppable DR....
I feel like they over nerf and over buff... GWFs lost prones and control because (mainly) CWs... Now CW DR boosted and GWFs lose prones...
W.e
Assailing force needs to be fixed to a 10-15sec ICD and NEEDS to repsect DR/and damage buffs.... This is tenebrous all over. Honestly no attacks should ignore DR
The max was a crit and seems exactly what you would expect from a crit on a 6800 damage spell. Not really sure what your seeing as broken. What debuffs did you have, buffs, HV set, perfect vorp, power, ArmP ect you get the point. Those numbers seem in line.
Consider the cw had consistent at will damage with CoI AE debuff and dot, storm procs. Now there is no more debuff and the class abilities are almost useless (storm) and the damage is random spikey procs that the cw does not control. The shield and the additional CC helps but it takes alot longer to kill anything and the CWs dps has been cut in half.
Now the board is getting lit up by pvpers (non cws) crying for nerfs before their free kills get taken away.
A better way IMO that it could work is give it an ICD of like 1 second, but a MUCH MUCH lower proc chance. Also it SHOULD respect DR and NOT proc off of "all source of damage" but maybe JUST encounters and at wills.
This brings it back up into the realm of being PVE feasible (make at 1 sec ICD its stil ltoo strong in AOE?) But in PVP the lower proc chance AND DR respect makes this less OP.
Thoughts?
I couldn't have said it better myself , strange these people don't appear on the feedback threads for their own classes making suggestions to make their class more fair and not as 'OP' but buff a class that has been not much more than free pvp points for the past two modules and they all rush in here giving suggestions on what to nerf cuz it just isn't fair anymore...
Well if you give it both an icd AND a much lower proc rate is like taking it all the way from useful to completely useless and that's not good. You could give it one or the other but not both,i think it's too much. Also if you include the other changes i proposed,about weapon enchants and encounter powers,then further nerfs will be unfair. You see the problem is it does a good amount of damage,that acts like necrotic. That can be corrected by making it Damage Resistance relevant. As always i'm against icd as, in my view,they spoil the fun. See what icd have done to some enchants that none wants because of the silly 20 sec cooldown.
Edit : There has been mentioned that Assailing Force might be bugged and is doing more damage than intended. If that is the case then by fixing it to reflect its tool tip there should be no problem. So for now i will have to take back what I've said about its power in pvp and wait for a confirmation on whether it is bugged or not.If its damage output is as was intended then everything i've said so far stands.
Several of your assumptions are incorrect. Assailing Force does not crit. The 22k damage was a non-critical hit. Here's a parse from today of Epic Lostmauth showing the highest Assailing Force damage:
None of those are critical hits and none of them have any boost in effectiveness (the far right column would show 110%, 120%, 130% etc if there were buffs affecting the damage). The only damage boost seems to be from Combat Advantage (flank).
Armor penetration, power and other things should be irrelevant to this calculation. Assailant is supposed to be unresistable damage (meaning it damages the same regardless of defense or armor) and should not be boosted by power or other buffs. It is supposed to be flat damage that is 15% of the targets max HP or 800% weapon damage, whichever is less. It is obvious that it is not doing that damage - it's doing a whole lot more.
I get that CW's have been the PvP punching bag and we should all want that to change. And I get that a lot of damage has been taken away already. But this is a forum to report bugs and Assailing Force is bugged. It is not working as intended.
Actually, Also So how much power and int did that wizard have?
I stand corrected. ~7k power, 24 INT. Not sure what other bonuses they are factoring into that.
Probably every damage bonus factors in (debuffs, combat advantage, feats, etc)
This is definitely not true. I have been saying since BEFORE mod 3 that GWFs dealt too much damage. I also just left a detailed post on my mod 4 main GFs forum saying things need a tone down there too.
This is clearly either not WAI or WAY too OP. Its not that people dont want CWs to shine, but its a matter of being completely broken or not.
I think this is a cool power, but the two biggest issues I have with it:
1) Procs off ANY damage
2) Ignores DR.
Fix those two issues and it should be fine.
For PVE purposes though, it doesnt seem like its any good, so IDK honestly how to make it fair....
Well, since the latest update Assailing Force has gone from lousy in PvE (~2% of total damage) to really, really good. Maybe too good. It can contribute 10% or more of total damage in a dungeon and 25% or more of your damage on a boss fight. When you consider that that is from one point spent on one feat, albeit a capstone, that's probably too much. They could dial back a fair amount while still making having it be useful in both PvP and PvE. However, as the feat is currently constructed, I don't think there is any possible way to make it both useful but not overpowered in PvP and useful but not overpowered in PvE.
My suggestion is to make it an arcane explosion. Have it still proc off damage to one target every five seconds but then have it do AoE damage to all enemies in a radius. That way you can tune the damage and the radius so that it will not be overpowered in PvP but still give good damage contribution in PvE.
Where i agree; yes this spell need to get reduced by the tenacity for the damage. but simply not caped to the 800% damage as it was from beginning simply because the reason is if you not take in case the gear bonus why the point of being geared.
Ayroux your point simply put this spell as useless as it begin with. you are speacking of 1000 damage as it look big but apply on the video you are refering is simply mean 100% time death for the cw as he do not have anything to surpass the regen of the gf. Also if player do not play with plague fire or oponent do not rush on icy terrain, CW will not have anything to do except little damage as a moskito.
BAsed on the video, i do not think things are far from getting perfect, and if you want to be fair do same with CW against for exemple an HR. also try to check what appens in group, the fact that CW can be perma controled, the fact that a CW using shield in tab can only use icy terrain arround him. Also what i can see good on actual change is that it starting to put the oponen class matching. (so to speak when you are facing someone, depending of both class, someone may have a class advantage, mean he should have an higher chance of winning, for exemple in DD normaly a wizard should have problem against ranged class and rogue, but should have advantage against melee fighter. But yes rushing without thinking a little may become harder than actual against CW that are actualy at disavantage against 100% of the class.
do not forget that a CW using both shield and icy terrain, well he only have 2 encounter available for distant shoot and no tab
So for me the only point i agree is that damage should be reduce from tenacity as it suppose to be, just start by that and you probably get the perfect point bacause as far as i read well the comment the GF was also able to win.
sug
this is a sugg for the pvp set of control wizard, pvp set are mainly done for pvp, the change done on shield will probably lead for most player to play with shield on tab. the problem is the 4/4 piece power bonus on pvp set is extra damage and cooldown for tab power. Having shield on tab put this set completly useless. So i should also suggest a rework for this set as he is suppose to give a boost for pvp.
i have many way of thinking an idea but well it should be a rework
Do you guys know what Problem Reaction Solution is?
Ie.: Company:"We want to nerf this, but we want the people to want the nerf too. Let's make it a big, huge nerf."
Players: "Oh, how about half that nerf please."
Company: "You got it."
you got your answer p45 from gentleman crusher for how assalling force working now
GWF with insanely high base crit severity + perfect vorpal. . .
TR with SHOCKING EXECUTION.
TR with Perfect Bilethorn
Yeah it's pretty easy to get an IBS hit that can do that. Now that player will be fairly squishy, but you can build a GWF that can do that in one hit.