ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited July 2014
Go on to the test server and play around with EotS and you'll see what I mean. It's why I used the blue color text to signify feedback, and not just random noise.
Right now, in order to proc EotS reliably, your best chance comes from using Encounter spells. The problem is that in order to maximize damage, you should cast your Encounter spells during EotS. The problem that people who are actually testing this stuff are finding is that a majority of the time their Encounter spells are on CD while EotS is up, minimizing it's actual effectiveness.
If EotS proc'd off just damage, you'd be able to reliably proc it without having to cycle through all your encounters, HOPING for a proc.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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dingleberrytruthMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 25Arc User
Go on to the test server and play around with EotS and you'll see what I mean. It's why I used the blue color text to signify feedback, and not just random noise.
Right now, in order to proc EotS reliably, your best chance comes from using Encounter spells. The problem is that in order to maximize damage, you should cast your Encounter spells during EotS. The problem that people who are actually testing this stuff are finding is that a majority of the time their Encounter spells are on CD while EotS is up, minimizing it's actual effectiveness.
If EotS proc'd off just damage, you'd be able to reliably proc it without having to cycle through all your encounters, HOPING for a proc.
And this is why, I'm still wondering...
You claimed EoTs is overpowered in Live, agreed.
Your reply to my earlier post was practically screaming about CoI and Steal Time multi proc mechanics as a bug and no changes have been made so far.
And unless you didn't know, we usually use encounters that debuff FIRST, so using Steal time or CoI does fit in with our rotation NICELY, which you also mentioned reliably procs EoTs.
So we have 1 mastery, 3 encounters. Let's just assume we are still using shard like Live and it isn't the useless meatball like it is in preview which many of us won't be using anymore.
Mastery: CoI, 1stEnc: Shard 2ndEnc: Steal Time 3rd: Sudden Storm
Are you sure you want to use shard or sudden storm as your opening Encounter?
So tell me again, how does your solution change anything? Unless of course you're one of those wizards who refuse to use HV just to be different then I rest my case.
Please think it through before posting. Especially in color.
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seventhpillarMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
Bro, give it up. We clearly are the minorities here. I highly doubt anything will happen in our favor. All they will tell you is our crit-charisma-ca-crit severity damage is because we are getting buffed by the other tree. This feedback thread is very thaum/oppressor centric. Unless you want to help their cause, you will just fall into deaf ears. My last post on this thread. It's been real.
The reason behind this thread being Oppressor/Thauma-centric is that probably Renegades were very tiny minority already.
And I'm not giving up, unless Devs tell us what they are planning to do, to make Renegade viable both in PvE and PvP. Which factor of being renegade should be appealing? What might make up for not being controller and not being pure dps? We have been throwing lots of ideas. I'd be most happy with high-crit-cha-combat advantage-fast-casting Renegade, since it will help in PvP, make game-play more smooth and give renegades sort of additional rene-only speciality. I'd love Devs to respond. There's still time before M4 comes live.
Bids he then the spruces to singer him an anthems!
And the Woodsie Lord binders them fleshes to stone!
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kieranmtornMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 382Arc User
Bro, give it up. We clearly are the minorities here. I highly doubt anything will happen in our favor. All they will tell you is our crit-charisma-ca-crit severity damage is because we are getting buffed by the other tree. This feedback thread is very thaum/oppressor centric. Unless you want to help their cause, you will just fall into deaf ears. My last post on this thread. It's been real.
Yeah, pretty much. And to add insult to injury, Renegade now will have a 5 feat point penalty imposed on it (tier 2 being useless garbage that you have to buy past to get to the core skills). So you'll have even fewer useful feats than before.
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dingleberrytruthMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 25Arc User
The problem is (and my last post on this got moved, but it's very salient to the test server changes) is that since EotS is currently bugged on Live to proc at a much higher rate than intended, people have a false sense of how much it should proc and how long the uptime should be. So you're not necessarily comparing apples to apples.
In fact, when I get a chance this afternoon, I'll test on Live vs Test the uptime on EotS NOT using ST or CoI, to get a baseline. And I also have a feeling that they can't fix CoI and ST without a significant coding rewrite, which is why it's simpler for them to go with a ICD.
Unless, they do ANY changes to Steal Time and CoI, then why still push on with this direction that you're suggesting?
Under Live, Thaumas do a lot more debuffing/support (in addition to overwhelming dps) than a renegade. By means of a consistently high uptime both in application and maintaining them.
Renegades are dependent on a very high crit uptime to fully provide their buffs which are supposedly offered in their tree. It procs often with EoTs in live. But the durations are very short indeed. Coupled with latency, a 4 second buff provides only 1 or 2 casts. Also, I wouldn't expect rubberbanding to be fixed anytime soon in CN as an example. We have experienced casting 'interrupted' steal time, chill strike which doesn't launch, shard which requires multiple recasts. So with all these REAL factors in play, there are more issues with renegades, buff/debuff durations and ICDs than on paper.
It just gets worse when coupled with the environment in game atm. This is not hyperbole. The situation for Renegades is grim. But this is on Live of course.
Then we throw in ICD. The pitfalls which I've highlighted in earlier posts. This is not hyperbole. EoTs needs its uptime. Nerf its effectiveness by other means.
I decided to test out oppressor on the dummies, just to do a full circle for a general idea.
Opp - 3,956,812 damage, 10,393 EncDPS
So, thaum gets the damage, oppressor some damage with control, what exactly does renegade get to make them special? Something that only benefits group play by providing combat advantage. Renegades need to have more than just nightmare wizardry to make them viable after the death of EoTS.
Won't nightmare wizardry be obsolete in mod4? GWF and GF marks give CA now.
I should clarify how shield works. It is NOT additive DR. It is not pushing wizards to the DR cap. It operates to absorb damage after their damage resistance has activated on it. So in practical terms it causes their DR to act as if it were X% greater than it is.
So for example
A wizard has 25% DR and his R1 shield is stable. YOu hit him with 1000 damage. The damage calculation would go as follows
1000 * .75 * .5 = 375
NOT 1000 * .25 = 250
This is a really important differentiation because their DR is still very important to how they resist damage because the shield acts after it.
Not to mention they do lose a full encounter slot to keep this multiplicative absorb on (or they activate the push and lose it, either way).
So this is definitely not putting wizards anywhere near Fighters OR the Resist cap on average. While it is possible a wizard is stacking defense and could get up that high, it is fairly unlikely to remain all that long
For reference purposes with R3 Stable and Unstable (Mastery and non Mastery) a wizard would need the following BASE DR values to reach the 80% resistance cap.
Stable: 53.36%
Unstable: 59.79%
Mastery Stable: 44.44%
Mastery Unstable: 57.12%
Thanks for the details. Youve probably thought about this, but this potentially makes it even MORE powerful since it seems like ARP wont be able to negate it... So you suggested base DR plays a big roll, but actually most classes in PVP run MORE than 25% ARP, so CWs BASE DR doesnt come unto play being that its fully negated, and now ontop of that, this CW shield cant be mitigated by DR? Since your calculations im guessing only work in another level of DR like Tenacity? Maybe I am wrong but dont see how ARP can negate part of the shield if its on another level like this...
Like you posted above 1000 damage comes in, assume 25% base DR & on Mastery (broken = 50%) slot but attack is dealt with a 33% ARP (alot of GWFs/GFs have this or more) ARP.
I assume it works like this then...
1000 comes in, 25% DR is mitigated by 33% ARP to 0% DR (doesnt go negative). So THEN shield steps up and mitigates (broken) 50% of the damage on its own level, and THEN tenacity after that.
So now its at 500 (50% of 1000). Then tenacity kicks in? So another -100 (@ 20%) down to 400 damage....
So total it still was a 60% DR boost to the CW (with tenacity). Lets compare to a fighter. My GF has about 50% DR. BUT! Alot of that is mitigated via ARP.
So 1000 comes in, lets say attacker only has 25% ARP versus my 50% DR. Now my GF takes 750 damage. net 20% tenacity = 600 damage....
So on 1000 damage the CW took 400 and GF took 600.... Unless I am understanding this right...?
The huge advantage with CWs and tenacity is that tenacity (and I assume shield works this way too?) benefits squishy targets the MOST, so for a CW in pvp there is actually no point to stack DR because of ARP, this allows tenacity @ 20% to be a FULL 20% DR boost to them, where as on a GF or GWF with 50% base DR its about HALF as effective....
Even before that armpen part, it doesn't make any sense. Even leave out tenacity at first...
GF/GWF/Etc = 50% DR. 1000 damage comes in, negate 50% = 500 damage.
Wizard with shield takes 375.
You could make the argument of shield and unstoppable, but it is not valid. Lets look at GF shield. There is a duration on it, you cannot use encounters from it, and some things (ray of frost as an example) penetrate it. It is directional, and you have to activate it. So this would be compared to the CW's dodge more than shield spell.
GWF unstoppable? Less DR than that, has to be activated, and doesn't last as long.
I understand you lose an encounter, but you still have three, like anyone else. You compare shield on tab to any other tab, and its not even close.
Add in the above wrt Armpen and tenacity, and it is worse. I may not PVP as a CW, but that does not make my feedback invalid. It does not change the fact that this shield makes the CW much tankier than the fighters/melee classes.
Even before that armpen part, it doesn't make any sense. Even leave out tenacity at first...
GF/GWF/Etc = 50% DR. 1000 damage comes in, negate 50% = 500 damage.
Wizard with shield takes 375.
You could make the argument of shield and unstoppable, but it is not valid. Lets look at GF shield. There is a duration on it, you cannot use encounters from it, and some things (ray of frost as an example) penetrate it. It is directional, and you have to activate it. So this would be compared to the CW's dodge more than shield spell.
GWF unstoppable? Less DR than that, has to be activated, and doesn't last as long.
I understand you lose an encounter, but you still have three, like anyone else. You compare shield on tab to any other tab, and its not even close.
Add in the above wrt Armpen and tenacity, and it is worse. I may not PVP as a CW, but that does not make my feedback invalid. It does not change the fact that this shield makes the CW much tankier than the fighters/melee classes.
Crush, IF my post above is correct, and you want to shoot to make it as tanky as a GF or GWF class, Shield in its own layer should be about 25% DR boost then....
This would make STILL BASE DR ineffective for CW in pvp, Shield takes out 25% down to 750 (just like a fighter) THEN tenacity another 20%. This would match that.... I think its TWICE as powerful as it should be.
Even at 35% broken - 1000 comes in (DR mitigated by ARP) then 35% gone = 650 dmg then 20% gone(tenacity) = 520.
So @ 35%shield + 20% tenacity a CW has 48% DR....
@ 25% shield + 20% tenacity a CW has 40% DR....
If you want to have it boost BASE DR and therefor able to mitigated by ARP, I think in the range of 30% would be fair since base of 20-25% +30% = about the range of a Fighter.... AND this has the advantage of making BASE DR something worth stacking since you can mitigate as much ARP as possible WITH base DR then shield adds the bonus.
IMO Id probably rather see it stack ontop of DR than in its own layer.
I understand you lose an encounter, but you still have three, like anyone else. You compare shield on tab to any other tab, and its not even close.
See the tab mechanic as if it's supposed to be used as a burst of damage or control.
It's like you're giving up on 30% DR and control immunity from Unstoppable to get a damage boost of 30% with 100% ArP. The difference is that GWFs have a fixed power on tab, while we don't.
Hopefully that clears up some of the math behind it.
However all that said, shield is probably retaining a tad too much resist while unstable. Therefore I will be reducing it slightly.
Shield will go down to retaining 25% of its effectiveness while destabilized. It dose this in 1 step in normal slots and 2 steps in Mastery Slots.
Thanks CRUSH! Your awesome! I think this will level out really nicely!
TO clarify for CWs who are not math geeks.
Using Crushs Example: CW with 25% DR 30% Tenacity and this NEW shield at 25%:
15000 * (1 - ((.25) * 1.3)) * (1 - .25) = 7593.75 or a real resist of ~50%.
If a player has enough ARP to mitigate 100% of your DR, then your MINIMUM DR would be 25% from a broken shield (much like a Fighter Class whose DR gets eaten by ARP.)
TLDR: Shield on tab makes you ROUGHLY as tanky as a Sent or GF in PVP.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
Using Crushs Example: CW with 25% DR 30% Tenacity and this NEW shield at 25%:
15000 * (1 - ((.25) * 1.3)) * (1 - .25) = 7593.75
I'm not a math geek. What i understand is : this is 1/4 of the max HP of a CW... 1/3 sometimes.. with 30% tenacity wich is rare (I've 19% with full BI armor + BI weapon + BI ring and pvp belt).
There is something I don't understand ?
Chaotic neutral - so i can do whatever the hell i want
Amazing how the devs are fast to reply to other classes players posting in here while ignoring cw's feedback for the most part.
I agree, he replied using my post, but did not respond to my suggestion. They are not very empowering but instead add much utility and better use of poor heroic feats.
Tenacity is an actual Multiplier on your resistance. If you manage to negate someone to zero resistance then their tenacity does nothing
Armor Penetration DOES indirectly act on Tenacity in this way, because tenacity mutliplies your resistance, but if your resistance is zero then you get nothing from it. TL;DR Arpen counters Tenacity.
Time for another example!
Wizard with 25% DR, 30% Tenacity, and R3 Shield Unstable in Mastery takes 15000 damage
15000 * (1 - (.25 * 1.3)) * (1 - .5) = 5062.5 for a total REAL resist of 67%
Now what if the player hitting him has more than 25% armor pen? It looks like this!
15000 * (1 - ((.25-.25) * 1.3)) * (1 - .5) = 7500 or a real resist of 50%. Just the R3 Mastery shield. Your armor penetration in this case increased your damage by nearly 50%.
This is the MAJOR reason wizards exploded so fast before. Once shield was depleted it acted for such a small amount (or none at all if it was R1 or you didn't slot it) that you could deal an incredible amount of bonus damage.
Another way to look at it is as follows. The more tenacity the opponent has, the more valuable EACH POINT OF ARPEN YOU CARRY IS! In this case it makes up a substantive portion of your possible outgoing damage. Also, it is far more efficient than power in PVP up to almost 35~38% resistance ignored (just from the stat ARPen) when your foe has tenacity. This obviously has a breakpoint based on how much tenacity the foe has and so on and so forth, but this also means that there is a hard cap on how much bonus damage you can leverage on wizards, but against foes with more DR you can do substantially more damage.
Hopefully that clears up some of the math behind it.
However all that said, shield is probably retaining a tad too much resist while unstable. Therefore I will be reducing it slightly.
Shield will go down to retaining 25% of its effectiveness while destabilized. It dose this in 1 step in normal slots and 2 steps in Mastery Slots.
Thanks for the insight on the math. I like this kinda stuff. My comment would be though, doesn't this give tankier classes for advantage with tenacity. Take TR for example, they are lucky to get around 31% DR (have to sacrifice some offense to get this) A GWF (who has Arp tied to his CON) using plaguefire should easily be able to mitigate DR to 0 and then tenacity doesn't help. Seems like it makes tanky classes more tanky and squishy classes at a disadvantage. The shield seems like it does the job well for CWs regarding this. Can't say the same for others with low DR.
Do I understand this correctly?:
The effectiveness of tenacity depends on your dmg resistance?
I always thought it is a flat dmg reduction no matter how much armpen ur opponent has.
Tenacity is an actual Multiplier on your resistance. If you manage to negate someone to zero resistance then their tenacity does nothing
Armor Penetration DOES indirectly act on Tenacity in this way, because tenacity mutliplies your resistance, but if your resistance is zero then you get nothing from it. TL;DR Arpen counters Tenacity.
Time for another example!
Wizard with 25% DR, 30% Tenacity, and R3 Shield Unstable in Mastery takes 15000 damage
15000 * (1 - (.25 * 1.3)) * (1 - .5) = 5062.5 for a total REAL resist of 67%
Now what if the player hitting him has more than 25% armor pen? It looks like this!
15000 * (1 - ((.25-.25) * 1.3)) * (1 - .5) = 7500 or a real resist of 50%. Just the R3 Mastery shield. Your armor penetration in this case increased your damage by nearly 50%.
This is the MAJOR reason wizards exploded so fast before. Once shield was depleted it acted for such a small amount (or none at all if it was R1 or you didn't slot it) that you could deal an incredible amount of bonus damage.
Another way to look at it is as follows. The more tenacity the opponent has, the more valuable EACH POINT OF ARPEN YOU CARRY IS! In this case it makes up a substantive portion of your possible outgoing damage. Also, it is far more efficient than power in PVP up to almost 35~38% resistance ignored (just from the stat ARPen) when your foe has tenacity. This obviously has a breakpoint based on how much tenacity the foe has and so on and so forth, but this also means that there is a hard cap on how much bonus damage you can leverage on wizards, but against foes with more DR you can do substantially more damage.
Hopefully that clears up some of the math behind it.
However all that said, shield is probably retaining a tad too much resist while unstable. Therefore I will be reducing it slightly.
Shield will go down to retaining 25% of its effectiveness while destabilized. It dose this in 1 step in normal slots and 2 steps in Mastery Slots.
That is interesting. How would the formula apply with something such as Astral shield? Would it add to the base DR in the formula or would it be counted as an outside buff?
You could be pretty much telling us that Tenacity is useless for the DR% in PVP, because pretty much any high end PVPer has a high amount of armpen. Either way, 20% Tenacity of say...25% DR is 5% extra DR. That's pretty underwhelming. Matches would last an ever longer absurd amount of time though, not something that we'd want.
How does the GWF, GF, HR and Warlock % resistance ignore from CON, DEX, sTR and INT(?) respectively work with armpen? Is it another multiplier? Or a flat out sum?
I thank you in advance but please add some clarity on these issues. It feels like more often than not, we're fighting the game or the system rather than other players/mobs.
Its interesting that the assumed base DR and Ten keeps creeping up. 25dr and 30ten now?
This is especially bad if Ten works off you DR. It also explains why tanks (gwf) are so much more resistant to damage. Why in the world would you tie Ten to DR? It should be a flat damage reduction, thats the only way to been applied evenly for all classes.
GC basically is saying if you have 25%DR or less dont bother with Tenacity gear.
Its interesting that the assumed base DR and Ten keeps creeping up. 25dr and 30ten now?
This is especially bad if Ten works off you DR. It also explains why tanks (gwf) are so much more resistant to damage. Why in the world would you tie Ten to DR? It should be a flat damage reduction, thats the only way to been applied evenly for all classes.
GC basically is saying if you have 25%DR or less dont bother with Tenacity gear.
I agree, I don't see many 30DR CW. And 19-21 is max tenacity I've seen.
CW on live is known as the "King of PVE" and are laughed at in PVP. One of the key reasons behind this is the way CW damage works. PVE is all about AOE damage and PVP is all about single burst and cc. The problem is that the AOE is too strong and the single target is way to weak. Its kindof absurd to have AOE damage spells do more single target damage than a single target spell. Take Entangleing and Steal Time. Each does CC and damage. Entangleing does to one target while Steal Time does to multiple. If used on a single target steal time will still do more damage. Single target spells should be more powerful on a single target than an AOE or whats the point.
The nerf to AOE damage was needed, the nerf to single target was not. Why even give CW a single target spell if your just going to make all the AOE do the job and do it better even in single target. Adjusting the damage of the single target spells only affected PVP. I have yet to meet a PVPer who was serious when he said he thought that CW was OP in PVP. Keeping the nerfs to AOE damage is fine, but the nerfs to single target needs to be reversed. The AOE spells will still be more beneficial to PVEers.
Oh dear. I can see a Warhammer future approaching. sad really cos the combat mechanic (although ripped from somewhere else) is great! the content at max level is boring +14k gs and now the endless nerfs and dubious class "adjustments" begin... enjoy it while it lasts
With this new reduction in shield, how will the CWs in PvP be able to keep up their damage aswell as their defence? All the single target abilities were giving damage reductions, even though they were already under preforming in PvP. I know why CWs was getting nurfed in the first place because it's the highest damage dealer in dungeons, but in dungeons CWs get their damage from AoEs, NOT single target attacks. If anything the single target attacks that were nurfed, (Chill Strike, Entangling Force, ect) should get a damage increase because of how ineffective they are now, (I literally CANNOT kill ANYONE in PvP without Assailing Force, and even that is getting nurfed!) I can't PvP if I don't have single target damage... Giving CWs back the damage on single target abilities is a must if CWs can't be tanky with shield. As of right now they will be even worse in PvP then on live server, and if you scroll through the top few pages on the leaderboard, CWs are HORRIBLY under preforming in PvP and need the single target damage if they are ever going to rise from being the least-requested & least-effective in PvP. I also don't really understand the basis for giving single target attacks damage nurfs, while they are only slotted for PvP, thus have no place in dungeons which is really why you guys gave so many nurfs to CW...
I have to agree with your points, single target skills need to be reverted back to live or even buffed. I've been testing out the new FtF on test server, and it is really underwhelming now compared to live. Even though they have re-assessed the cast time to 1 second (down from the 1.5 original nerf), the 22 seconds recharge + 33% damage reduction has made the skill useless.
Remembering that FtF off TAB does NOT apply smoulder, meaning that off TAB it is a nuke attack purely, that can no longer nuke and takes 22 seconds to come back around in the rotation.
My suggestion here is either put the damage back up to live or make it add smoulder when off TAB, and change the TAB ability to something else.
This basically means i won't be using any MOF spells in my rotation at all anymore as furious immolation is useless as a daily and i need to use Ray of Frost to apply smoulder.
Yes CW needed AOE nerfs, but they also needed single target buffs. +1 for the buff on shield, but it also takes one slot away from our attacking spells in PvP that are already underwhelming.
Ok seeing all the last post give me the point of how it work there.
People who never played CW come here to complain. players that claim themselve to have never lost even once again CW.
They come there and get what they want again; a free kill for pvp while it will be now out of leage in pve. they don't even care of what it give for those CW player that just play solo map.
From two comment from a player that claim himselve to have never lose against CW we got damage cut by half in pvp and now damage reduction from shield too.
So that all now, i won't spend anymore time testing on beta server trying to save CW. it's already decided it's a RIP class that have for only purpose to be food for other class.
It will also be my last post there and i will leave when V4 goes out.
That a farewell post and i say good luck for the rare CW that will remains after V4
edit: the guy i'm refererring is also doing same thing in other class he is not playing while systematicly asking for buff for the class he play
Yep , it does seem pretty strange that the only people GC seems to take any notice of in the CW feedback thread is a GWF/GF neither of who have been playtesting a CW and are pretty much constantly calling for CW to be nerfed , nerfed , nerfed , so sad GC is so easily manipulated and doesn't seem to have a mind of his own , guess its easy CW kills again in mod 4 while GWF/GF gets more and more powerful with each suggestion....
Comments
Right now, in order to proc EotS reliably, your best chance comes from using Encounter spells. The problem is that in order to maximize damage, you should cast your Encounter spells during EotS. The problem that people who are actually testing this stuff are finding is that a majority of the time their Encounter spells are on CD while EotS is up, minimizing it's actual effectiveness.
If EotS proc'd off just damage, you'd be able to reliably proc it without having to cycle through all your encounters, HOPING for a proc.
And this is why, I'm still wondering...
You claimed EoTs is overpowered in Live, agreed.
Your reply to my earlier post was practically screaming about CoI and Steal Time multi proc mechanics as a bug and no changes have been made so far.
And unless you didn't know, we usually use encounters that debuff FIRST, so using Steal time or CoI does fit in with our rotation NICELY, which you also mentioned reliably procs EoTs.
So we have 1 mastery, 3 encounters. Let's just assume we are still using shard like Live and it isn't the useless meatball like it is in preview which many of us won't be using anymore.
Mastery: CoI, 1stEnc: Shard 2ndEnc: Steal Time 3rd: Sudden Storm
CoI>Steal Time> EoTs Procs> Cast Shard > Sudden Storm > Shard
Are you sure you want to use shard or sudden storm as your opening Encounter?
So tell me again, how does your solution change anything? Unless of course you're one of those wizards who refuse to use HV just to be different then I rest my case.
Please think it through before posting. Especially in color.
Bro, give it up. We clearly are the minorities here. I highly doubt anything will happen in our favor. All they will tell you is our crit-charisma-ca-crit severity damage is because we are getting buffed by the other tree. This feedback thread is very thaum/oppressor centric. Unless you want to help their cause, you will just fall into deaf ears. My last post on this thread. It's been real.
And I'm not giving up, unless Devs tell us what they are planning to do, to make Renegade viable both in PvE and PvP. Which factor of being renegade should be appealing? What might make up for not being controller and not being pure dps? We have been throwing lots of ideas. I'd be most happy with high-crit-cha-combat advantage-fast-casting Renegade, since it will help in PvP, make game-play more smooth and give renegades sort of additional rene-only speciality. I'd love Devs to respond. There's still time before M4 comes live.
Yeah, pretty much. And to add insult to injury, Renegade now will have a 5 feat point penalty imposed on it (tier 2 being useless garbage that you have to buy past to get to the core skills). So you'll have even fewer useful feats than before.
Unless, they do ANY changes to Steal Time and CoI, then why still push on with this direction that you're suggesting?
Under Live, Thaumas do a lot more debuffing/support (in addition to overwhelming dps) than a renegade. By means of a consistently high uptime both in application and maintaining them.
Renegades are dependent on a very high crit uptime to fully provide their buffs which are supposedly offered in their tree. It procs often with EoTs in live. But the durations are very short indeed. Coupled with latency, a 4 second buff provides only 1 or 2 casts. Also, I wouldn't expect rubberbanding to be fixed anytime soon in CN as an example. We have experienced casting 'interrupted' steal time, chill strike which doesn't launch, shard which requires multiple recasts. So with all these REAL factors in play, there are more issues with renegades, buff/debuff durations and ICDs than on paper.
It just gets worse when coupled with the environment in game atm. This is not hyperbole. The situation for Renegades is grim. But this is on Live of course.
Then we throw in ICD. The pitfalls which I've highlighted in earlier posts. This is not hyperbole. EoTs needs its uptime. Nerf its effectiveness by other means.
Won't nightmare wizardry be obsolete in mod4? GWF and GF marks give CA now.
I don't play GF/GWF so that's complete news to me. That is the death of the poor renegade.
Thanks for the details. Youve probably thought about this, but this potentially makes it even MORE powerful since it seems like ARP wont be able to negate it... So you suggested base DR plays a big roll, but actually most classes in PVP run MORE than 25% ARP, so CWs BASE DR doesnt come unto play being that its fully negated, and now ontop of that, this CW shield cant be mitigated by DR? Since your calculations im guessing only work in another level of DR like Tenacity? Maybe I am wrong but dont see how ARP can negate part of the shield if its on another level like this...
Like you posted above 1000 damage comes in, assume 25% base DR & on Mastery (broken = 50%) slot but attack is dealt with a 33% ARP (alot of GWFs/GFs have this or more) ARP.
I assume it works like this then...
1000 comes in, 25% DR is mitigated by 33% ARP to 0% DR (doesnt go negative). So THEN shield steps up and mitigates (broken) 50% of the damage on its own level, and THEN tenacity after that.
So now its at 500 (50% of 1000). Then tenacity kicks in? So another -100 (@ 20%) down to 400 damage....
So total it still was a 60% DR boost to the CW (with tenacity). Lets compare to a fighter. My GF has about 50% DR. BUT! Alot of that is mitigated via ARP.
So 1000 comes in, lets say attacker only has 25% ARP versus my 50% DR. Now my GF takes 750 damage. net 20% tenacity = 600 damage....
So on 1000 damage the CW took 400 and GF took 600.... Unless I am understanding this right...?
The huge advantage with CWs and tenacity is that tenacity (and I assume shield works this way too?) benefits squishy targets the MOST, so for a CW in pvp there is actually no point to stack DR because of ARP, this allows tenacity @ 20% to be a FULL 20% DR boost to them, where as on a GF or GWF with 50% base DR its about HALF as effective....
Maybe you can clarify....
GF/GWF/Etc = 50% DR. 1000 damage comes in, negate 50% = 500 damage.
Wizard with shield takes 375.
You could make the argument of shield and unstoppable, but it is not valid. Lets look at GF shield. There is a duration on it, you cannot use encounters from it, and some things (ray of frost as an example) penetrate it. It is directional, and you have to activate it. So this would be compared to the CW's dodge more than shield spell.
GWF unstoppable? Less DR than that, has to be activated, and doesn't last as long.
I understand you lose an encounter, but you still have three, like anyone else. You compare shield on tab to any other tab, and its not even close.
Add in the above wrt Armpen and tenacity, and it is worse. I may not PVP as a CW, but that does not make my feedback invalid. It does not change the fact that this shield makes the CW much tankier than the fighters/melee classes.
Crush, IF my post above is correct, and you want to shoot to make it as tanky as a GF or GWF class, Shield in its own layer should be about 25% DR boost then....
This would make STILL BASE DR ineffective for CW in pvp, Shield takes out 25% down to 750 (just like a fighter) THEN tenacity another 20%. This would match that.... I think its TWICE as powerful as it should be.
Even at 35% broken - 1000 comes in (DR mitigated by ARP) then 35% gone = 650 dmg then 20% gone(tenacity) = 520.
So @ 35%shield + 20% tenacity a CW has 48% DR....
@ 25% shield + 20% tenacity a CW has 40% DR....
If you want to have it boost BASE DR and therefor able to mitigated by ARP, I think in the range of 30% would be fair since base of 20-25% +30% = about the range of a Fighter.... AND this has the advantage of making BASE DR something worth stacking since you can mitigate as much ARP as possible WITH base DR then shield adds the bonus.
IMO Id probably rather see it stack ontop of DR than in its own layer.
See the tab mechanic as if it's supposed to be used as a burst of damage or control.
It's like you're giving up on 30% DR and control immunity from Unstoppable to get a damage boost of 30% with 100% ArP. The difference is that GWFs have a fixed power on tab, while we don't.
Thanks CRUSH! Your awesome! I think this will level out really nicely!
TO clarify for CWs who are not math geeks.
Using Crushs Example: CW with 25% DR 30% Tenacity and this NEW shield at 25%:
15000 * (1 - ((.25) * 1.3)) * (1 - .25) = 7593.75 or a real resist of ~50%.
If a player has enough ARP to mitigate 100% of your DR, then your MINIMUM DR would be 25% from a broken shield (much like a Fighter Class whose DR gets eaten by ARP.)
TLDR: Shield on tab makes you ROUGHLY as tanky as a Sent or GF in PVP.
We all have CW s and tested it
Now come back to PvE and transfer the DPS from Assailing Force to our powers; our DPS is relying too much on it. ò_ó
I'm not a math geek. What i understand is : this is 1/4 of the max HP of a CW... 1/3 sometimes.. with 30% tenacity wich is rare (I've 19% with full BI armor + BI weapon + BI ring and pvp belt).
There is something I don't understand ?
Thanks for the insight on the math. I like this kinda stuff. My comment would be though, doesn't this give tankier classes for advantage with tenacity. Take TR for example, they are lucky to get around 31% DR (have to sacrifice some offense to get this) A GWF (who has Arp tied to his CON) using plaguefire should easily be able to mitigate DR to 0 and then tenacity doesn't help. Seems like it makes tanky classes more tanky and squishy classes at a disadvantage. The shield seems like it does the job well for CWs regarding this. Can't say the same for others with low DR.
The effectiveness of tenacity depends on your dmg resistance?
I always thought it is a flat dmg reduction no matter how much armpen ur opponent has.
That is interesting. How would the formula apply with something such as Astral shield? Would it add to the base DR in the formula or would it be counted as an outside buff?
You could be pretty much telling us that Tenacity is useless for the DR% in PVP, because pretty much any high end PVPer has a high amount of armpen. Either way, 20% Tenacity of say...25% DR is 5% extra DR. That's pretty underwhelming. Matches would last an ever longer absurd amount of time though, not something that we'd want.
How does the GWF, GF, HR and Warlock % resistance ignore from CON, DEX, sTR and INT(?) respectively work with armpen? Is it another multiplier? Or a flat out sum?
I thank you in advance but please add some clarity on these issues. It feels like more often than not, we're fighting the game or the system rather than other players/mobs.
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This is especially bad if Ten works off you DR. It also explains why tanks (gwf) are so much more resistant to damage. Why in the world would you tie Ten to DR? It should be a flat damage reduction, thats the only way to been applied evenly for all classes.
GC basically is saying if you have 25%DR or less dont bother with Tenacity gear.
The nerf to AOE damage was needed, the nerf to single target was not. Why even give CW a single target spell if your just going to make all the AOE do the job and do it better even in single target. Adjusting the damage of the single target spells only affected PVP. I have yet to meet a PVPer who was serious when he said he thought that CW was OP in PVP. Keeping the nerfs to AOE damage is fine, but the nerfs to single target needs to be reversed. The AOE spells will still be more beneficial to PVEers.
I have to agree with your points, single target skills need to be reverted back to live or even buffed. I've been testing out the new FtF on test server, and it is really underwhelming now compared to live. Even though they have re-assessed the cast time to 1 second (down from the 1.5 original nerf), the 22 seconds recharge + 33% damage reduction has made the skill useless.
Remembering that FtF off TAB does NOT apply smoulder, meaning that off TAB it is a nuke attack purely, that can no longer nuke and takes 22 seconds to come back around in the rotation.
My suggestion here is either put the damage back up to live or make it add smoulder when off TAB, and change the TAB ability to something else.
This basically means i won't be using any MOF spells in my rotation at all anymore as furious immolation is useless as a daily and i need to use Ray of Frost to apply smoulder.
Yes CW needed AOE nerfs, but they also needed single target buffs. +1 for the buff on shield, but it also takes one slot away from our attacking spells in PvP that are already underwhelming.
People who never played CW come here to complain. players that claim themselve to have never lost even once again CW.
They come there and get what they want again; a free kill for pvp while it will be now out of leage in pve. they don't even care of what it give for those CW player that just play solo map.
From two comment from a player that claim himselve to have never lose against CW we got damage cut by half in pvp and now damage reduction from shield too.
So that all now, i won't spend anymore time testing on beta server trying to save CW. it's already decided it's a RIP class that have for only purpose to be food for other class.
It will also be my last post there and i will leave when V4 goes out.
That a farewell post and i say good luck for the rare CW that will remains after V4
edit: the guy i'm refererring is also doing same thing in other class he is not playing while systematicly asking for buff for the class he play
Yep , it does seem pretty strange that the only people GC seems to take any notice of in the CW feedback thread is a GWF/GF neither of who have been playtesting a CW and are pretty much constantly calling for CW to be nerfed , nerfed , nerfed , so sad GC is so easily manipulated and doesn't seem to have a mind of his own , guess its easy CW kills again in mod 4 while GWF/GF gets more and more powerful with each suggestion....