Elemental Evil Preview Patch Notes NW.45.20150122b.1

ghoulz66

People talk about GFs should/will need a healer now at ALL times.

But what about the CW? They will go about killing PVE like they always have. HOW is that fair..? The class that was meant to tank, draw agro won't be able to recover worth the squat, but the wizard who can already CC things can continue to keep their life filled at a whim.

zacazu

just to confirm... between the lvl 60 and 70 the classes will got more 10 feat points, correct?

zebular

ghoulz66 wrote: »

People talk about GFs should/will need a healer now at ALL times.

But what about the CW? They will go about killing PVE like they always have. HOW is that fair..? The class that was meant to tank, draw agro won't be able to recover worth the squat, but the wizard who can already CC things can continue to keep their life filled at a whim.

It's best to not fall into speculation and fear mongering until they can be properly tested, feedbacked on, and adjusted accordingly if needed.

hustin1

This is what has me so upset about the regeneration change: it's something we rely on when we're soloing. Nerfing it is a pretty lousy way to make the paladin relevant in groups.

Today, when we're immobilized/frozen/paralyzed/stunned by a critter when we're out soloing, we still have regeneration to restore health while we're helplessly being pummeled (i.e. it's a state in which we cannot attack and cannot take advantage of lifesteal). Changing regeneration to a lifesteal boost makes surviving solo content that much harder. Against the right critters, it ensures our death in an encounter.

It simply isn't regeneration at that point. In-combat, it's a lifesteal and incoming healing bonus (the latter of which is 100% irrelevant when soloing).

Devs, seriously. Find some other way to carve out a niche for the paladin. This game is supposed to be casual-gamer friendly and solo-friendly. Don't ruin it for us because you want to make the paladin desirable in groups.

ghoulz66

zebular wrote: »

It's best to not fall into speculation and fear mongering until they can be properly tested, feedbacked on, and adjusted accordingly if needed.

It's obvious to know what the outcome is for a tanking class who attacks VERY slowly(hurting LS potential) because of the LS change, and making them completely dependent on a healer with the regen nerf. They will be unable to stay alive long enough unless they wrap themselves around a DC's legs like a sad little stray puppy.

....All the while the new Righteous DC is on a genocidal killing spree.

zebular

ghoulz66 wrote: »

It's obvious to know what the outcome is for a tanking class who attacks VERY slowly(hurting LS potential) because of the LS change, and making them completely dependent on a healer with the regen nerf. They will be unable to stay alive long enough unless they wrap themselves around a DC's legs like a sad little stray puppy.

....All the while the new Righteous DC is on a genocidal killing spree.

What? My GFs attack quite fast. I know people with GFs that are on par with a real good GWF's damage output. Still, let's not speculate and cause undue drama.

zebular

hustin1 wrote: »

This is what has me so upset about the regeneration change: it's something we rely on when we're soloing. Nerfing it is a pretty lousy way to make the paladin relevant in groups.

Today, when we're immobilized/frozen/paralyzed/stunned by a critter when we're out soloing, we still have regeneration to restore health while we're helplessly being pummeled (i.e. it's a state in which we cannot attack and cannot take advantage of lifesteal). Changing regeneration to a lifesteal boost makes surviving solo content that much harder. Against the right critters, it ensures our death in an encounter.

It simply isn't regeneration at that point. In-combat, it's a lifesteal and incoming healing bonus (the latter of which is 100% irrelevant when soloing).

Devs, seriously. Find some other way to carve out a niche for the paladin. This game is supposed to be casual-gamer friendly and solo-friendly. Don't ruin it for us because you want to make the paladin desirable in groups.

Have you tested these theories?

hustin1

zebular wrote: »

Have you tested these theories?

What is there to test? Go to any zone and find a critter that incapacitates you (freezes, stuns, immobilizes, pick your poison). Today, your regen restores health while they continue to damage you (and while you cannot attack in kind). It's perfectly obvious that with the regen change, you won't get any health back while incapacitated.

zebular

hustin1 wrote: »

What is there to test? Go to any zone and find a critter that incapacitates you (freezes, stuns, immobilizes, pick your poison). Today, your regen restores health while they continue to damage you (and while you cannot attack in kind). It's perfectly obvious that with the regen change, you won't get any health back while incapacitated.

How is it obvious when you cannot even test it to confirm this? Perhaps one should reserve judgement until testing is done and then make appropriate feedback.

hustin1

Regeneration: No longer provides in Combat Health Regeneration. Now increases the effectiveness of healing spells cast against you and provides out of Combat health regeneration.

Good grief, zeb! Is this not what it says?

If you want a concrete example, go to WoD and let a white dragonsoul freeze you.

zacazu

when a tank/off tank attack, the life steal works like a average of damage taken and damage stolen. so, you got life and lost in the same time, is continuous.

a class witch range/dots tools - unless that kind of damage+class features dont trigger life steal - shoot your damage and will steal life if lost life even in distance.
you can see the 2 extremes here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8Uz6LL2spU

we are work using facts. is the historý of this game.

edit: just to compare

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zzeF2OVzgA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOEUkPMAyMM

5 minutes on youtube and you understand why all that is just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>... test...

zebular

hustin1 wrote: »

Good grief, zeb! Is this not what it says?

And have you tested that to see how it works in relation to all the other changes? Do you even know how these changes affect mobs and how the changes that affect mobs affect how these changes effect players?

hustin1

Are you telling me that if I go to WoD and let a white dragonsoul freeze me, that my health might actually tick UP while I'm frozen solid? Because I don't see anything leading to that conclusion in the patch notes.

Zeb, seriously. I'm an avionics engineer. I understand the importance of testing -- and testing to spec. The spec in the patch notes says no passive health regen while in combat, frozen or otherwise.

zebular

hustin1 wrote: »

Are you telling me that if I go to WoD and let a white dragonsoul freeze me, that my health might actually tick UP while I'm frozen solid? Because I don't see anything leading to that conclusion in the patch notes.

Zeb, seriously. I'm an avionics engineer. I understand the importance of testing -- and testing to spec. The spec in the patch notes says no health regen while in combat, frozen or otherwise.

As an avionics engineer you should know to properly test a theory before making a conclusion. You may also like to read this:

gentlemancrush wrote: »

Something very important to remember is that none of these changes exist in a vacuum. Monsters and Stats on gear are all in flux and will be getting adjusted to tune this to be correct.

A couple overall comments to hopefully redirect some of this feedback.

1) Life Steal thematics - Remember that this is *not* a spell you are casting. Your fighter with no levels of wizard is not using a magic spell to steal health. He is using magically enhanced equipment. And in that vein, equipment being persnickety and not always doing exactly what you want (especially when you really really need it to) has been a feature of lots of special items in DnD. This is no exception.

2) Life Steal mechanically - One of the things we wanted to change was the *reliability* of life steal. Making it operate as a more random even makes it feel streaky in practice and not something you can rely on to just carry you through a tough place. You will have to adjust your tactics when soloing to account for this, but the new content also keeps this change in mind.

3) Regeneration, and its place in statting/gearing. We wanted to drastically reinforce Regeneration as a tanking stat and a really viable stat for high end PVE tanks regardless of the situation they were in. Before it was awful at dealing with large spikes of damage, but could effectively remove small steady streams of damage. Now it is a flat heal out of combat (regardless of your health percentage) as well as a VERY powerful tanking stat because it drastically improves all healing you get from any source. Players who are playing a DPS class will get less from this stat, but it will still make you far easier to heal, which includes healing caused by artifacts and companions. It also helps reduce potion consumption between fights and downtime between fights. This also helps reinforce the roles of players in group content. Tanks cannot easily just mitigate the need for a healer with enough Regen/Lifesteal any more. This was exceptionally important with us adding a new tank and healer this module.

Couple all this with the fact that your stat curves will let you stack as much of any given stat as you could desire without losing much effectiveness (or being in diminishing returns) it will be about getting what stat means the most for you and figuring out how you want to spread out your stats rather than trying to spread all of your stats out so you are just barely touching those diminishing return caps.

alkemist80

hustin1 wrote: »

In-combat, it's a lifesteal and incoming healing bonus (the latter of which is 100% irrelevant when soloing).

Actually incoming healing bonus, as of current live, applies to lifesteal. So it's not irrelevant, it will only make your lifesteal stronger. Is incoming heal bonus absolutely necessary? Not at all.

ph33rm3

Just nerf lifesteal and regen. Make people stack more. Which in my case means losing power. My stats are exactly where I want them and I am not willing to sacrifice anything but power.

hustin1

alkemist80 wrote: »

Actually incoming healing bonus, as of current live, applies to lifesteal. So it's not irrelevant, it will only make your lifesteal stronger. Is incoming heal bonus absolutely necessary? Not at all.

It's irrelevant when you're incapacitated (e.g. frozen by a white dragonsoul). That is my primary concern as that is when regen in its current form is most important.

3) Regeneration, and its place in statting/gearing. We wanted to drastically reinforce Regeneration as a tanking stat and a really viable stat for high end PVE tanks regardless of the situation they were in. Before it was awful at dealing with large spikes of damage, but could effectively remove small steady streams of damage. Now it is a flat heal out of combat (regardless of your health percentage) as well as a VERY powerful tanking stat because it drastically improves all healing you get from any source. Players who are playing a DPS class will get less from this stat, but it will still make you far easier to heal, which includes healing caused by artifacts and companions. It also helps reduce potion consumption between fights and downtime between fights. This also helps reinforce the roles of players in group content. Tanks cannot easily just mitigate the need for a healer with enough Regen/Lifesteal any more. This was exceptionally important with us adding a new tank and healer this module.

We don't work in theories; we work in specifications. The results of the test must match the specification or it fails.

I've read the above very carefully and several times.

Now it is a flat heal out of combat (regardless of your health percentage)

Irrelevant when you're incapacitated and still in combat.

as well as a VERY powerful tanking stat because it drastically improves all healing you get from any source.

Irrelevant when you're soloing and incapacitated. By definition there is no other source of healing.

Players who are playing a DPS class will get less from this stat, but it will still make you far easier to heal, which includes healing caused by artifacts and companions.

When soloing, you MUST have a healing companion already summoned or you can receive no healing while incapacitated.

This also helps reinforce the roles of players in group content.

Irrelevant when you're soloing, which is the vast majority of the time.

I don't think I'm missing anything.

Couple all this with the fact that your stat curves will let you stack as much of any given stat as you could desire without losing much effectiveness (or being in diminishing returns) it will be about getting what stat means the most for you and figuring out how you want to spread out your stats rather than trying to spread all of your stats out so you are just barely touching those diminishing return caps.

I actually did test this a bit before preview went down. I can verify that it was true for Movement (8.8% run-speed --> 11%), but not for defense (overall defense went up a little bit because companions increased in level), but for a base 6200 defense, damage resistance only went from 48% to 49%. If this is WAI then I'm decidedly nonplussed.

charononus

hustin1 wrote: »

It's irrelevant when you're incapacitated (e.g. frozen by a white dragonsoul). That is my primary concern as that is when regen in its current form is most important.



We don't work in theories; we work in specifications. The results of the test must match the specification or it fails.

I've read the above very carefully and several times.


Irrelevant when you're incapacitated and still in combat.


Irrelevant when you're soloing and incapacitated. By definition there is no other source of healing.


When soloing, you MUST have a healing companion already summoned or you can receive no healing while incapacitated.


Irrelevant when you're soloing, which is the vast majority of the time.

I don't think I'm missing anything.



I actually did test this a bit before preview went down. I can verify that it was true for Movement (8.8% run-speed --> 11%), but not for defense (overall defense went up a little bit because companions increased in level), but for a base 6200 defense, damage resistance only went from 48% to 49%. If this is WAI then I'm decidedly nonplussed.

Umm then don't get frozen? <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up so badly that you are frozen for several seconds should have a high probability of killing you period.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_coupdegrace&alpha=C

hustin1

Um, ok. I can't rebut that. If the devs want solo content to become much more deadly overall, perhaps they should just say so?

zebular

hustin1 wrote: »

Um, ok. I can't rebut that. If the devs want solo content to become much more deadly overall, perhaps they should just say so?

I cannot remember the last time I was frozen that long in PvE with it being any detriment and what regeneration I do have on my characters didn't do anything anyway that was noticeable or lifesaving. Only a couple of my characters even have noteworthy regeneration.

hustin1

Can I take that to mean, "you don't need it anyway"? Because that's how it looks to me: that there are no subtle interactions with any other changes, it's what it is: zero passive healing while solo and in combat, unless you have your trusty cleric disciple summoned (and hopefully still alive).

ph33rm3

Ok Zeb. I understand this is your job, but you don't have any negative feelings about this? Only good things to say?

zebular

ph33rm3 wrote: »

Ok Zeb. I understand this is your job, but you don't have any negative feelings about this? Only good things to say?

Oh yes, I posted my negatives already and my CMs always get ear-fulls from me, negative, positive, and neutral alike. I'm probably one of the most negative moderators ever, yet I do so in a polite manner, most of the time. I also provide just as much neutral and positive outlooks on things as well. I did go off the walls-balls crazy once though (when they removed casting while moving in alpha), but since then I don't give feedback while battling a migraine anymore as I realized how bad I sounded afterwards.. lol

I don't have any negative feedback for LS or Regen though, I actually like the sound of the changes, especially since one of my two most played characters is a healing divine oracle dc. I'm reserving final judgement though until I can see how they actually affect my character in gameplay testing.

ph33rm3

zebular wrote: »

I actually like the sound of the changes, especially since one of my two most played characters is a healing divine oracle dc.

OK. That explains everything. You don't need the healing. I suppose if I were you I wouldn't care either.

ph33rm3

Can we vote for a moderator with a DPS main?

charononus

ph33rm3 wrote: »

OK. That explains everything. You don't need the healing. I suppose if I were you I wouldn't care either.

Have you tested the changes? I did. Now I was on my SW as that's the character I enjoy most currently, but I was every bit as immortal in solo content as ever.

zebular

hustin1 wrote: »

Can I take that to mean, "you don't need it anyway"? Because that's how it looks to me: that there are no subtle interactions with any other changes, it's what it is: zero passive healing while solo and in combat, unless you have your trusty cleric disciple summoned (and hopefully still alive).

Alas, I need to test how it works now to determine that. In game on live though, yes. I would safely say that none of my 28 characters need regeneration and very few even use it. I have almost 20 level 60 characters, out of 28. At least 1 for each paragon path.

ph33rm3

charononus wrote: »

Have you tested the changes? I did. Now I was on my SW as that's the character I enjoy most currently, but I was every bit as immortal in solo content as ever.

I did and died during a 3 man heroic (1st time ever)

I'm not talking content. 10k can walk all over it.

alkemist80

hustin1 wrote: »

It's irrelevant when you're incapacitated (e.g. frozen by a white dragonsoul). That is my primary concern as that is when regen in its current form is most important.

Most classes have DoT's. You still have the ability to activate lifesteal then.

And yes, as it was mentioned, don't get yourself in a CC jam. I can not say what piddly regeneration I have on my toons have ever saved any of their lives. Never really bothered to stack it as it was.

hustin1

alkemist80 wrote: »

Most classes have DoT's. You still have the ability to activate lifesteal then.

And yes, as it was mentioned, don't get yourself in a CC jam. I can not say what piddly regeneration I have on my toons have ever saved any of their lives. Never really bothered to stack it as it was.

I must be a rare player, then, because my main has a ton of regen. It's saved her hide countless times. At half HP, she regenerates > 2000 HP per tick.

Her use of potions is exactly the opposite of what was described in the patch notes: they're for dealing with damage spikes, not for after combat. She doesn't need potions after combat: regen takes care of it.

The more I think about it, the more I think the devs are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist: it's not that present-day regen is problematic, it's that most players don't put enough points into it.