What other changes besides removing AD cost? Have refiningpoint costs increased? Please use zen store coal ward prices since we can't predict the future thx.
Hm... as it seems my point from yesterday, didn't come through. Let me be blunt and put it this way:
tl;dr: Not working, as the Zen <-> AD needs to be estimated as well
Even if we would take the Zen price into consideration, there are so many values, that would need to be estimated, that besides making the new system look really bad, it wouldn't really do anything to make it more "realistic".
Are you sure you can reliable predict a Zen/AD exchange rate? Before you say yes, would you bet--say--$10,000 that your prediction is gonna come true?
Are you sure you can reliable predict the drop rate of the enchantments in Module 2?
Are you sure you can reliable predict that the Zen cost of the Coalescent Ward is not gonna change?
Are you sure you can reliable predict that PW/Cryptic is not going to change the cost of the Mark of Potency?
Are you sure you can reliable predict that the Refinement Points are not going to change?
Are you sure you can reliable predict that the required Catalysts are not gonna change?
The more unknown variables, the less predictable any future outcome will be. Therefore, if you would like to do a comparison or guesstimate, you should not change that much variables.
uurbs thanks for long post, i think u missed my attempt at humor by a mile. Anyway, I haven't tried 2nd refinement version, but if it is simply having AD cost removed, while retaining the same refining system, then the cost of making enchantments will drop dramatically, for better or worse. I hope cryptic will figure out their math, snickers.
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uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
Could you please make sure marks from epic dungeon skill nodes always pop up for rolling? Else Guardian Fighters (who lack dash) will never ever get a chance to loot a node again. And we already share the node type with GWFs.
Really, it would help avoid a lot of unnecessary drama.
Yes, this is indeed needed. Not only because it's unfair for the GF, but then we would have players that leave the rest of the party to fight the mobs, while they go and "guard" the skill nodes to make sure they get it first.
I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
What other changes besides removing AD cost? Have refiningpoint costs increased? Please use zen store coal ward prices since we can't predict the future thx.
Against my better judgement, and this is the last time i;ll ever address to u: Wanting information about something i cant test is not wrong, as me are others and that info regardless of your opinion is important! I really really dont care what u belive or not , u make decisions for yourself based on your intellect and knowledge! Regarding that estimated price... i only told the desired price of the producers, price that will put the perfects on the same price as they are now, a thing that rly makes more sense then your desire for receiving gifts! TY!!!
What about all of the ill gotten enchantments? People who abused the early exploits will be king forever?
Now that it takes 2 - 5 times as long to rank something up, how are new players supposed to ever be on par with said exploiters?
I am aware, the soulforged/tenebrous "soft-nerfs" are a result of the exploiters using said gems but... when will we see some real justice? Like perma banns, empty accounts etc.? I can still see the same person(s) selling stacks of 99 rank 5's, a thousand times on a daily basis.
A thousand stacks of 99 rank 5's daily is a bit hyperbolic, but if you would like to do the math on what someone with say 5 accounts with 50 characters each, every character running 6-9 slots of leadership (using a minimal interaction bot, is that exploit?) can generate in terms of enchants, go ahead, I imagine it is a good number of stacks.
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uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
How so? It doesn't cost additional items to fuse. In future it will + we will have to run dungeons just to fuse gems, how's that cheaper?
If you are neither inclined to test and do some calculations of your own, nor read the calculations other's have done. I consider it very disrespectful to raise arguments, which have been invalidated a couple of times over.
Not knowing the cost of all the components needed, it's hard to say what the final cost should be, but I believe that it should still be very difficult to get rank 8 and 9 enchantments. Similarly, artifacts should be very difficult to rank them up to legendary status. If it costs are too low, then everybody will be walking around with rank 10 enchantments with 3 legendary artifacts, and it will destroy the sense of accomplishment.
I don't like to exploit, however, it is hard to argue 4v1 about abusing bugs. I play because I love to run dungeons, smash and bash demons, and I like the sense achievement you get by grinding out a rank 8 or 9 enchantment. I would rather the developers work on patching exploits and adding new content instead of watering down a system that gives good rewards to good players with good rewards and players that put in an extraordinary amounts of time with moderately better rewards. The amount time required to get a rank 8 to rank 9 is absurd. Leave in a few absurd challenges for those who are willing to climb Mt. Everest.
If you can't get at least rank 6 or 7 enchantments for your gear, you aren't trying. It is so easy to get rank 4 enchantments running MotH, dungeons and daily quests. Collect them to rank up, and TA DA!!! You will have rank 6 or 7 enchantments in a few days.
I am sorry if it I sound arrogant, but this is how I feel. However, I do applaud making removing enchantments more affordable. It was absurdly expensive to pull out a rank 7 or 8 enchantments and it makes try out new builds and optimizing your enchants along with the new skills.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited November 2013
Any thoughts about adding the catalysts as drops in the Skirmishes, to get people more motivated to do those as well?
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
I think marks should NOT drop from skillnodes in dungeons (unless they change skillnodes in dungeons so all in the party can gather from one)
Would be better if they drops from trash rather than bosses (to make exploits less attractive)
dropping in skirmishes would be a good idea to
I think marks should NOT drop from skillnodes in dungeons (unless they change skillnodes in dungeons so all in the party can gather from one)
Would be better if they drops from trash rather than bosses (to make exploits less attractive)
dropping in skirmishes would be a good idea to
I agree with having catalyst have chances to drop from trash monsters in dungeons.
I'm for catalysts dropping from whatever. This game is so easy to exploit you will be able to farm the catalysts at a very fast rate no matter what they do.
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rapticorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,078Arc User
edited November 2013
I like the AD removal however I still think the catalyst portion adds unnecessary complexity and expense into the system. I just fail to see how it makes things "more enjoyable" since you still have the same failure percentage. Sure they will be drops but from the sound of things so far they don't seem very common.
Catalyst drop in skirmishes is a very good idea.
About skill nodes in dungeons - it's awful, you must rid off it. Or allow people to use a single skil node multiple times by different payers. Or disable skill kits in dungeons and allow using only your own nodes.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I think marks should NOT drop from skillnodes in dungeons (unless they change skillnodes in dungeons so all in the party can gather from one)
Would be better if they drops from trash rather than bosses (to make exploits less attractive)
dropping in skirmishes would be a good idea to
Strongly agree with having marks drop from dungeon trash.
RIP Neverwinter 26/06/2014
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
You still need enough matching shards to make another greater to fuse with your current one, so 16, but you can get the refining points by using twice as many of any kind of shard, or a bunch of enchantments, etc.
syka08Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
Feedback: General
A master stroke of work, doing away with the AD sink. Now we can save both time And AD and only be inhibited by the catalyst with is completely okay to me. Given that there's no mention of moving the AD sink back to unslotting, it sounds like this system has become a winning combination for both sides of the argument.
Catalysts having a chance of dropping off of dungeon & skirmish mobs over the bosses sounds like a great idea, in theory.
Maybe it should just be across the board, with mobs having less of a chance and bosses having the same or higher probability. I’d rather hate to see these things wind up in chest loot if they would be yet another thing that would reduce your chances of obtaining your tier items.
Anywho, things keep improving for this new system in my eyes. Keep on keepin’ on ^_^.
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//off topic warning
Though I would like to ask, based off the quote by amenar, on the argument of why this system was redone:
our data shows that many players are not engaging in the current system due to the frustration of using it.
What does your data say about pet/companion upgrades? The vast majority of my anecdotal experience with this are that the majority of people who paid to explore this regretted it as the high AD cost didn't reflect anywhere near an equivalent gain in pet/companion performance. Those of us who took one look at the AD pricing on it and immediately turned away from it obviously didn't do anything with it either.
Granted, this isn't a core system to the game, but are there any plans or have their been any talks on addressing the pet/companion upgrade system in the future?
Bug: Crash – slotting enchantments I had a repeatable crash yesterday if I dragged a standard enchant (e.g. Silvery) onto a weapon that already contained a weapon enchant. The box that popped up to confirm the enchant slot had the slot for standard enchants greyed out. The weapon enchant slot was available to select, I didn’t select anything and clicking the ok button resulted in a crash.
Using the right click menus to enchant worked without issue.
Bug: Crash – slotting enchantments I had a repeatable crash yesterday if I dragged a standard enchant (e.g. Silvery) onto a weapon that already contained a weapon enchant. The box that popped up to confirm the enchant slot had the slot for standard enchants greyed out. The weapon enchant slot was available to select, I didn’t select anything and clicking the ok button resulted in a crash.
Using the right click menus to enchant worked without issue.
D'oh. Looks like we missed the fix to that one in our Preview build, but it's fixed internally. We're working on a build for a Preview push next week that should have the fix. (As usual, times are subject to change )
D'oh. Looks like we missed the fix to that one in our Preview build, but it's fixed internally. We're working on a build for a Preview push next week that should have the fix. (As usual, times are subject to change )
Then you can take a look of this issue:
Bug: Refining – Using non-available Enchantments I use xyz enchantment and refine them. But after a refining processes i can hit the refine button, but it don't do anything. Why? It ran out of the used enchantment! For example: You will fill the RP of a R5 azure. Now you drag 5x R1 azure in the slots. Press refine - work fine. Now you have only 22 of this R1. After 4 successful refine button clicks, the fifth bug out. It consume the 'available 5 showing'(but you know that we only have 2 real left) and put the value of this 5 used to the RP of the destination. Sometimes it reject it, but not always. So now you stand there with the shown 5 azure R1 and pressing refine button again and again, but nothing happen. If you clean the azure(drop them out or using the autoclean), the RP reset to the right point(i think, but i don't calculated it as this scenario happen). This need to be addressed, that it kill the 3 false shown azure AND give you the error - not enough xyz available for full filled slots.
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uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
Bug: Refining – Using non-available Enchantments I use xyz enchantment and refine them. But after a refining processes i can hit the refine button, but it don't do anything. Why? It ran out of the used enchantment! For example: You will fill the RP of a R5 azure. Now you drag 5x R1 azure in the slots. Press refine - work fine. Now you have only 22 of this R1. After 4 successful refine button clicks, the fifth bug out. It consume the 'available 5 showing'(but you know that we only have 2 real left) and put the value of this 5 used to the RP of the destination. Sometimes it reject it, but not always. So now you stand there with the shown 5 azure R1 and pressing refine button again and again, but nothing happen. If you clean the azure(drop them out or using the autoclean), the RP reset to the right point(i think, but i don't calculated it as this scenario happen). This need to be addressed, that it kill the 3 false shown azure AND give you the error - not enough xyz available for full filled slots.
This is not fixed yet? I haven't tried reproducing it with the new patch, I already reported it as a bug about four days ago. See:
Bug: Refinement Window: Automatically filling the Refining Slots If I'm using the "Fill All Refining Slots" and select e. g. a stack of 8 enchantments. All five slots get filled. After I click on "Refine", the stack only contains the remaining 3 enchantments, but the 5 refining slots are still filled with 5 enchantments. Clicking on "Refine" initiates the stamping sound as normal, but nothing happens: neither get RP added to the "Item To Refine" nor does the 5 refinement slots get's emptied. Also I do get a error message in any kind. If I remove 2 enchantments from the enchantment slots and click on "Refine" again, the RP value get's added and the refinement slots get cleared.
Therefore you need to check if there are still 5 items in the stack
Thank you for taking the additional direct AD cost out of refining stones, that is very much appreciated.
Now in regards to the catalyst, yeah I don't like them and to me it is just an extra step. With that said, I was on the preview shard for over an hour, and did not find any catalysts, either from dungeon runs or from nodes, both in and outside of dungeons.
If they are going to be recieved from nodes, then maybe increasing the drop rate.
As others have commented, having them drop from trash in dungeons would be better. Would discourage players leaving/avoiding combat and racing to the nearest node leaving the others in party fighting off the monsters that were in the way.
Also in favor of having them drop from skirmishes.
What about having new Quest just to get catalysts? Have a quest that is not a daily quest, but similar to the length of time it takes to repeat the quest, Arcane Reservoir. Here you can get a chance to get any rank of catalysts, except it's a random chance.
Comments
tl;dr: Not working, as the Zen <-> AD needs to be estimated as well
Even if we would take the Zen price into consideration, there are so many values, that would need to be estimated, that besides making the new system look really bad, it wouldn't really do anything to make it more "realistic".
The more unknown variables, the less predictable any future outcome will be. Therefore, if you would like to do a comparison or guesstimate, you should not change that much variables.
Bugs and penalties apart, this new system now is much better than the current (cheaper).
A thousand stacks of 99 rank 5's daily is a bit hyperbolic, but if you would like to do the math on what someone with say 5 accounts with 50 characters each, every character running 6-9 slots of leadership (using a minimal interaction bot, is that exploit?) can generate in terms of enchants, go ahead, I imagine it is a good number of stacks.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
I don't like to exploit, however, it is hard to argue 4v1 about abusing bugs. I play because I love to run dungeons, smash and bash demons, and I like the sense achievement you get by grinding out a rank 8 or 9 enchantment. I would rather the developers work on patching exploits and adding new content instead of watering down a system that gives good rewards to good players with good rewards and players that put in an extraordinary amounts of time with moderately better rewards. The amount time required to get a rank 8 to rank 9 is absurd. Leave in a few absurd challenges for those who are willing to climb Mt. Everest.
If you can't get at least rank 6 or 7 enchantments for your gear, you aren't trying. It is so easy to get rank 4 enchantments running MotH, dungeons and daily quests. Collect them to rank up, and TA DA!!! You will have rank 6 or 7 enchantments in a few days.
I am sorry if it I sound arrogant, but this is how I feel. However, I do applaud making removing enchantments more affordable. It was absurdly expensive to pull out a rank 7 or 8 enchantments and it makes try out new builds and optimizing your enchants along with the new skills.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
embracemysword
Because now that they remove the AD costs, it cost less AD to up the enchants then now (less wards), and you need much less r4 enchants/runes;
Would be better if they drops from trash rather than bosses (to make exploits less attractive)
dropping in skirmishes would be a good idea to
I agree with having catalyst have chances to drop from trash monsters in dungeons.
About skill nodes in dungeons - it's awful, you must rid off it. Or allow people to use a single skil node multiple times by different payers. Or disable skill kits in dungeons and allow using only your own nodes.
Updated number crunching from the old thread
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?516571-Cryptic-OFFICIAL-Feedback-Thread-Refinement-System&p=6454461&viewfull=1#post6454461
You still need enough matching shards to make another greater to fuse with your current one, so 16, but you can get the refining points by using twice as many of any kind of shard, or a bunch of enchantments, etc.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
A master stroke of work, doing away with the AD sink. Now we can save both time And AD and only be inhibited by the catalyst with is completely okay to me. Given that there's no mention of moving the AD sink back to unslotting, it sounds like this system has become a winning combination for both sides of the argument.
Catalysts having a chance of dropping off of dungeon & skirmish mobs over the bosses sounds like a great idea, in theory.
Maybe it should just be across the board, with mobs having less of a chance and bosses having the same or higher probability. I’d rather hate to see these things wind up in chest loot if they would be yet another thing that would reduce your chances of obtaining your tier items.
Anywho, things keep improving for this new system in my eyes. Keep on keepin’ on ^_^.
---
---
//off topic warning
Though I would like to ask, based off the quote by amenar, on the argument of why this system was redone: What does your data say about pet/companion upgrades? The vast majority of my anecdotal experience with this are that the majority of people who paid to explore this regretted it as the high AD cost didn't reflect anywhere near an equivalent gain in pet/companion performance. Those of us who took one look at the AD pricing on it and immediately turned away from it obviously didn't do anything with it either.
Granted, this isn't a core system to the game, but are there any plans or have their been any talks on addressing the pet/companion upgrade system in the future?
I had a repeatable crash yesterday if I dragged a standard enchant (e.g. Silvery) onto a weapon that already contained a weapon enchant. The box that popped up to confirm the enchant slot had the slot for standard enchants greyed out. The weapon enchant slot was available to select, I didn’t select anything and clicking the ok button resulted in a crash.
Using the right click menus to enchant worked without issue.
D'oh. Looks like we missed the fix to that one in our Preview build, but it's fixed internally. We're working on a build for a Preview push next week that should have the fix. (As usual, times are subject to change
Then you can take a look of this issue:
Bug: Refining – Using non-available Enchantments
I use xyz enchantment and refine them. But after a refining processes i can hit the refine button, but it don't do anything. Why? It ran out of the used enchantment! For example: You will fill the RP of a R5 azure. Now you drag 5x R1 azure in the slots. Press refine - work fine. Now you have only 22 of this R1. After 4 successful refine button clicks, the fifth bug out. It consume the 'available 5 showing'(but you know that we only have 2 real left) and put the value of this 5 used to the RP of the destination. Sometimes it reject it, but not always. So now you stand there with the shown 5 azure R1 and pressing refine button again and again, but nothing happen. If you clean the azure(drop them out or using the autoclean), the RP reset to the right point(i think, but i don't calculated it as this scenario happen). This need to be addressed, that it kill the 3 false shown azure AND give you the error - not enough xyz available for full filled slots.
Thanks for reporting (and re-reporting)! Looks like this is another of the ones we've fixed but didn't quite make it in time for Wednesday's build.
Thank you for taking the additional direct AD cost out of refining stones, that is very much appreciated.
Now in regards to the catalyst, yeah I don't like them and to me it is just an extra step. With that said, I was on the preview shard for over an hour, and did not find any catalysts, either from dungeon runs or from nodes, both in and outside of dungeons.
If they are going to be recieved from nodes, then maybe increasing the drop rate.
As others have commented, having them drop from trash in dungeons would be better. Would discourage players leaving/avoiding combat and racing to the nearest node leaving the others in party fighting off the monsters that were in the way.
Also in favor of having them drop from skirmishes.
What about having new Quest just to get catalysts? Have a quest that is not a daily quest, but similar to the length of time it takes to repeat the quest, Arcane Reservoir. Here you can get a chance to get any rank of catalysts, except it's a random chance.