1. Not everyone have alts. 2. Not everyone have VIP 3. Not everyone have money to spend or a credit card to use
Why do people forget this i do not know. Just cos we have VIP , we think everyone else has it. They do not.
Why would a new player make 2 or 3 alts while just starting this game ?
He gets his or her little char. , and tries to level it following the story line.
A person like that is not aware of the fact you need to play AH to "make" money, or get tons of alts, in order to "get" that money .
A person like that is not aware that without VIP he or she needs to pay up 5 k for a dungeon keys , but if he/she spends Zen on VIP he can get a discount to buy them. 25 % , JUST BUY THAT ZEN , since it pays off. Right ?
So what then ? Getting VIP right ? So he or she can run 3 free dungeons a day. And 1 from the free daily key. Oh the joy : 4 dungeons ! Amazing !
But wait they can only refine 36 k a day per 1 character. So it is important to make alts , no alts no money. What kind of stupid HAMSTER way of thinking is this... You can only refine " this amount " per day. But legendary keys are 250 Zen.
You want to buy 5 legendary keys ? Make 4 more alts >! Or wait 4 days to get keys. If you manage to buy Zen at all in the first place.
It will get back to 5oo. I have no doubt about that . It will happen. And people will again wait months to get some Zen for AD.
.. I do not understand how people can not see this.
But it is okay. We got over removing Coal wards from trade bars .. since " it was not such a big deal ". We got over putting a limit on refining. We got over tons of HAMSTER and we ll eventually get over this. People will get tired of replying in here.
One character, no alts 36k*14days=1 mounth VIP you dont need pay real money. If you want to talking about new players, before this change it was much more difficult for them. Now they have chance drop stuff for free in skirmishes, sell it or keep it. Tell me why everyone have thousend of VIP keys and dont use them before ? Because before in chests was nothing, litteraly nothing, VIP keys was uselles.
Please Trinity just stop answering to us, you keep bringing "more effort" on the table.
We are not willing to do so, so as many of us with no drops shouldnt be considered a bad system in general like you said. The same goes for your effort system, it should apply as well, your case can't be the same for all and considered THE solution. You are just saying basically to oppose grind to greed as a solution, thats all.
Please Trinity just stop answering to us, you kept bringing "more effort" on the table.
We are not willing to do so, so much as many of us with no drops shouldnt be considered as bad in general. The same goes for your effort system, it should apply to everypoint.
Just please stop bringing your effort on the table...
I will continue as long as players choose not to do something in-game about their situation yet complain about it.
Since you edited your post after I replied to it:
When players convert AD to Zen they are utilizing Zen other players bought for a whole of other things other than LDK's. You act as if players don't buy Zen mounts, campaign completions, Stronghold items, bags, refinement, packs, items, companions, etc., etc., etc. Again, if players don't buy Zen for whatever reason(s) there won't be any Zen for the F2P's to convert AD into. If LDK's were the ONLY item in the Zen market your argument would hold weight but since they are not, well...
Everybody does not hold dungeons in as high regard as a number of players do and just like the dungeoneers who oppose the key change are posting in this thread, players who can and have worked around it are as well. This isn't a bash Cryptic only thread, it's open to players with various views, perspectives, thoughts and feelings about the key change and trying to shut them out so the bash party can rage on uninterrupted is not only selfish but also inconsiderate.
I'm assuming the positive posts about the key change are "damaging" the hope of it changing...
Post edited by trinity706#8838 on
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
It just make no sense, you said it yourself people buy bags, mounts... I dit it myself, i bought bags, mounts, vip. 150e in 6 months of real cash...
So there is a many ways to generate revenue for Cryptic and that bs keys update wasnt a necessity at all...
You are telling that is normal for me that after that amount spent in the game to either buy keys or grind old campaign....
I DONT WONT TO AND I DESERVE AS A DECENT CUSTOMER ( and even if i wasnt) TO NOT BEING FORCED TO GRIND OLD CAMPAIGNS TO CRAFT KEYS OR BUYS KEYS.
EASY SOLUTION : im vip, i have 3 normal key chets everyday, give me 3 legendary for my vip too.
That way much more people will buy vip = income for Cryptic, keys for us, everyone happy... After all they lived without dunjeons keys income for years, no reason to not continue exept greed.
1. Not everyone have alts. 2. Not everyone have VIP 3. Not everyone have money to spend or a credit card to use
Why do people forget this i do not know. Just cos we have VIP , we think everyone else has it. They do not.
Why would a new player make 2 or 3 alts while just starting this game ?
He gets his or her little char. , and tries to level it following the story line.
A person like that is not aware of the fact you need to play AH to "make" money, or get tons of alts, in order to "get" that money .
A person like that is not aware that without VIP he or she needs to pay up 5 k for a dungeon keys , but if he/she spends Zen on VIP he can get a discount to buy them. 25 % , JUST BUY THAT ZEN , since it pays off. Right ?
So what then ? Getting VIP right ? So he or she can run 3 free dungeons a day. And 1 from the free daily key. Oh the joy : 4 dungeons ! Amazing !
But wait they can only refine 36 k a day per 1 character. So it is important to make alts , no alts no money. What kind of stupid HAMSTER way of thinking is this... You can only refine " this amount " per day. But legendary keys are 250 Zen.
You want to buy 5 legendary keys ? Make 4 more alts >! Or wait 4 days to get keys. If you manage to buy Zen at all in the first place.
It will get back to 5oo. I have no doubt about that . It will happen. And people will again wait months to get some Zen for AD.
.. I do not understand how people can not see this.
But it is okay. We got over removing Coal wards from trade bars .. since " it was not such a big deal ". We got over putting a limit on refining. We got over tons of HAMSTER and we ll eventually get over this. People will get tired of replying in here.
One character, no alts 36k*14days=1 mounth VIP you dont need pay real money. If you want to talking about new players, before this change it was much more difficult for them. Now they have chance drop stuff for free in skirmishes, sell it or keep it. Tell me why everyone have thousend of VIP keys and dont use them before ? Because before in chests was nothing, litteraly nothing, VIP keys was uselles.
Right now you can still buy it with exchanging AD. If that continues , fine No problem. We will all be happy campers. But it will not. Remember the time when it crashed and no one could get any Zen out of it , for their AD? I do. How long did it last ? Do you remember ? I am actually expecting it to happen.
I have VIP since it got out. Got it cos i truly hated one thing. Traps in ECC. Back when ECC was a " hard " dungeon. lol So when i saw what exactly , VIP will get me I went for it. Enchanted keys are a bonus, that never , from BETA, gave me anything legendary. And i am fine with it. I just do not have luck. I accepted that , cos we can not all be happy RNG goers. If i want to play NW i have to accept the casino effect of the Lockboxes.
However, epic dungeon keys are something different. Not one person in my guild is not running dungeons . If they have alts they now run little dungeons on alts, and few on main. Keys get spent. Why ? Cos we have no other option then to open the chest to get our the loot. I am not okay with it. Will probably never be.
Elol has been worthless since the salvage values were changed and the horn was nerfed: \
So last night we ran eToS twice, eCC, and eGWD.
Each chest (total of 4) Gave me the two seals and a single piece of salvage gear. No boss drops from any of the bosses. I discussed with the 4 people who were with me through these dungeons and only one got a boss drop of salvage - everyone ended up with the same thing. It's hard to get that crew into those dungeons since there is only a single chest to open and they feel like it's not worth it. But now that we are running out of secondary keys - every dungeon will be a single chest dungeon...
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
@diloul31 Here's what you do, since you don't know the reason(s) Cryptic made the key change and are negatively speculating (which is your right to do so regardless of how it may seem and whilst the results have already been posted in a number of places: lower prices on artifacts that people want, increased drop rates, increased items in loot tables, etc., etc.) put your "Cryptic only wants money" on a shelf somewhere and look at things differently as a number of posters here have (I would state put that theory somewhere in the trash but hey). Since you probably won't do that I will again give you a very simple course of action to take...
DO NOT BUY KEYS WITH MONEY
Want keys, convert AD to Zen, but then again the essential part of that formula is missing is, here's that "e" word again, effort, you know the effort that you don't want to put in?
No effort > No AD > No Zen conversion > No keys
If players want to limit themselves to an epic key or epic key and crafted key(s) per session that's fine as well, but when they complain, guess what?
Players aren't forced to do previous campaigns to craft keys, it's just another option they have. If the majority of players would stop opting out of all or at least some of the available options they have to get around spending money (not even just for keys) then the key change I'm willing to bet wouldn't have had such a big commotion about it.
Yes with no exchange it will be problem, but right now you can save some zen and use it later. Honestly even without zen exchange, 9.99 e per mounth for game you enjoy isnt too much. About dungeons.. I have no problem get party in guild or channels, but yea I get what are you trying to say, without keys is no point to run dungeons. Did you run ecc,etos all day before ? I doubt it. Maybe a few times for salvage but you dont grind it, there was no point to do it. So I take this little chance for something then nothing. Dude If you are really play this game from beta you know you cant have big expectations, just play it till you get bored. Its never gonna be better q:D
Elol has been worthless since the salvage values were changed and the horn was nerfed: \
So last night we ran eToS twice, eCC, and eGWD.
Each chest (total of 4) Gave me the two seals and a single piece of salvage gear. No boss drops from any of the bosses. I discussed with the 4 people who were with me through these dungeons and only one got a boss drop of salvage - everyone ended up with the same thing. It's hard to get that crew into those dungeons since there is only a single chest to open and they feel like it's not worth it. But now that we are running out of secondary keys - every dungeon will be a single chest dungeon...
: \
Even before the key change we all just held onto our campaign keys checking chests for a horn/shard that never dropped. If that one piece of salvage is really making it a game breaker you just need to explain that campaign chest was never returning much value on the time invested in it before the chest either.
However, epic dungeon keys are something different. Not one person in my guild is not running dungeons . If they have alts they now run little dungeons on alts, and few on main. Keys get spent. Why ? Cos we have no other option then to open the chest to get our the loot. I am not okay with it. Will probably never be.
I'll just answer to that put your "effort" somewhere... On a shelf ( or trash... )
I already told you - i do sharandar/ outerdark everyday - i do skirmishs everyday - it takes time to manage inventory, sales, scraping ect... I farmed particules, i farmed ichor and i farm dunjeons...
And now i have to farm old campaign to create keys to be able to do dunjeons... Or enter the multiple characters grind ?
I keep telling you that i got nothing from the keys i used... You get 500k everyday of drops good for you, boss always give me peridots or salvage <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>....
Did it cross your mind that if was lucky as you are i wouldnt be here complaining ? When something is too much in favor or players, it's nerfed so i would have no interest to shout on the roofs " i earn 500k everyday of drops"
But you are too stuborned to understand that...
I must not take my rng screwed for general and be happy for myself..
But i should take you great drops or grind system as THE thing to do...
Stop talking to us like we are kiddies, i'm 33 years old, two kids, 10 years working for a bank and selling stuff and actually working for one of the biggest planes provider in the world, buying parts at the best quality/prices all over the world.
So spare me your daddy lessons about how to run a bizness...
I never said they should stop taking income, i said they need to stop being greedy and always more greedy
Selling pixels and video games is a very different bizness than selling vegetables or cars...
When there is passion there is income...
That's why games like GTA or Kojima or naughty games, it provides gigantic loads off money. You followed what happened at Konami ? Hideo need 4 or 5 years and 200 people to make a great game. Konami wanted 100 people max and 2 or 3 years max...
He basically said :" Screw you" and things went south...
So dont act like there is no greed in video games bizness or like Cryptic are saints...
Do you think guys behind Mass effect were fired years ago after last release and have been hired again for the next release ?
F2p are different, they dont instant cash but during years they earn same or more and the poor support does not justify always more income and greed.
When there is passion, there is natural incomes.
When all there is grind and fishing to mask the lack of content, there is no passion just greed...
i think it's reasonable to imagine there is millions of people playing the game on pc/xbox/ps4 if only one million have paid a month of vip with real cash then it's 10 millions income ... Ofc, i'm not stupid, there is staff to pay, costs, blah blah blah but you see the idea... And i'm not even talking about boosters and startings packs, mounts, bags, ect... Trust me f2p is a very lucrative bizness otherwise it would have already disapeared... ( You didnt read the exellent article about laws around the world againstnew rng lockboxes. Yet it's not madness or haters and well argumented. No you quote only what suits you to prove me wrong...)
Time will prove me right...
But again, when will you say something about dunjeons removed and not being fixed since years, key update without the price drop that was suposed to happen WITH the update ? Must be a bug...
Even before the key change we all just held onto our campaign keys checking chests for a horn/shard that never dropped. If that one piece of salvage is really making it a game breaker you just need to explain that campaign chest was never returning much value on the time invested in it before the chest either.
You are correct - however from the perspective of my friends
5 of us went through 4 dungeons - that's 3 bosses per dungeon and 1 chest at the end.
That's 60 opportunities for a boss drop - we saw 1 and it was salvage That's 20 chests opened and ALL of them were seals, and one bit of salvage (worth 5500AD)
Until FBI these were the hardest dungeons available and they don't even drop an artifact... my crew liked hunting for the artifacts, which is why even though we have been able to do the epics, they stick to VT, eLoL and Malabogs which we at least know someone who has gotten something useful out of. We run CN now and then but we seem to regularly have an issue where someone can't open the chests, so it's disheartening there.
Today they ran eLoL about 6 times (i'm at work so they are FB messaging me) one guy got the horn twice both times dropped from Lostmauth - no key, from the keys one of my other friends got the belt.
Here is the thing - the loot drops are now what they should have been all along - while still being able to look into the chest without your key getting eaten. They just hosed us over for so long on the drops that most people are looking at this as a boon, when in reality its just and adjustment to where it should have been from the beginning.
So I run the epics and get 5500 worth of salvage per dungeon, I can refine 36K of it each day (not including the AD I get from the first two dungeon runs). If you are buying the keys from the dwarf at 5K AD each, you are only making the AD from the first two dungeons - which you could easily have gotten much more quickly from just plowing through cloak tower and not worrying about the chest at all since you know 100% that it's junk.
Keys still take entirely too long to make and any that take more than a single day of daily quests in the area are ridiculously over priced.
I guess what I'm saying is that I just don't understand how they think the epics are worth it other than just the challenge of running them.
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
@diloul31 I understand that YOU have not gotten a "good" drop but other people are yet you feel that the system is bad because of your personal experience with it when it is apparently working overall.
If you and others feel Cryptic is being "greedy" don't buy Zen, then you will not be granting them revenue they are trying to bring in to continue providing the F2P game you all play, pretty much for free.
You don't have to do ANY of the things I suggested though more than likely you will continue to get the same results until you get a good drop and in the time between you can make much more AD than the drop is worth. Fishing is currently pretty much the most profitable thing to do in Neverwinter in regard to time spent/AD gain. If players choose to stick with dungeons and not partake that is their choice.
From your statement you have worked for someone else, not ran your own business...
What if your employer(s) came in one day and told everyone "We have made enough revenue for the year", see you all next year, or we haven't made enough so no one will be getting their bonuses, or we are understaffed so you can't take vacation? My point here is whatever Cryptic is doing with the revenue they bring in and or the reasons they do things the way they do it's really not our business, we are here to play the game, not tell them how to run their business. If we as the players don't like what's going on we can opt out and not play their game. As I stated before if there is that much resentment in regard to the key change don't play the game, when the number of players and revenue starts to drop I guarantee Cryptic will pay attention, until then they are more in a position to keep things the way they are...
I'm pretty sure there is greed in some video games companies (just like other types of companies) and when things get too bad for the players more and more of them leave and the company is faced with either letting their game go or making some changes. Even if Cryptic is being greedy (how could it be proven anyway? LOL), I know how to get around spending my own money if I don't want to. Cryptic at this moment is seemingly not in that position to make such changes since millions of people still play, have passion for the game and buy Zen and some players that spend money here and there.
I have read the article about lock boxes and a number of others as well and it still comes down to choice, players are choosing to spend money on a chance at virtual gains. I like dungeons though I also enjoy a lot of the content outside of the coveted dungeons. "RNG" works in my favor plenty and even more so since I don't solely/primarily rely on it for my progression in the game.
Thanks Trinity. Even if i disagree i like what you just wrote.
It's an opinion without the try to explain others, " i hold the truth and you are doing it all wrong
Again i'm not saying tha they should stop trying to make more money, just not the way it's done atctually... And even without runing a company, i know the better service and low prices you offer, the more customers you drag.
They created the service to finish campaigns for exemple without doing them for 4500. I dont like that but if people want do it i cant see why i would argue about that ! It's concrete you paid for a service to save time, ok ! Same goes for vip, mounts, pets, packs ect... You pay, you get something. Even if you spend 1000e in these because you can afford it i respect that, no problem... Make money by all means if it's fair...
There is zen, da, rad, gold, legion of currencies, make another than cant be obtained by playing the game i dont know... You could buy things for small fee so its pure money in the pockets of pwe instead of playing the game of those who manipulate ah
See i'm open to everything just not giving me the choice to waste my time or waste my little earning in rng instead of what will help grow my toon.
What i'm trying to say from the beginning is i hate the key update because like i said.
I already spend my time doing my farm, the one i feel ok to do otherwise i dont play mmo. I already have plans for what i stacked.
I was ok to farm dunjeons even with a slight chance equal to zero in the end i did not lost anything, no time to make currencies for keys and wait 24h and no ad/zen...
Now it's a complete different story, i do less dunjeons, the ones i do keep giving NOTHING ( today too). i lost all my keys and i can't craft anymore because i dont have time to rerun campaigns and the little ad i earn i habe better plans for it than wasting it keys that give me nothing but frustration...
20 chests no gains, all losses on the cost of the key, I have the same experience and same sentiment, with other groups. So it is not just ravenskya, there are 26 pages of posts here and several other threads about the same thing. New loot nice; take key bad.
@ravenskya What areas/zones do you feel take an "excessive" amount of time to complete daily quests to craft a key?
I have roughly 3-4 hours per night to play after work. If I want to run 3 dungeons and have the opportunity at opening ALL of the chests.
First I have to run 3 different dungeons (you can only make 1 key type at a time).
So lets say I'm planning on an eLoL, VT and Malabogs. First I have to run ALL of the Sharandar Daily quests that give crescents and sparks (I'm not at home on the game so some of this is from memory), then I have to run all of Dread Ring - including the heroics to get enough vanguard scripts. Then I'm off to run both the well of dragons daily quests AND the harper quests to get enough cult secrets.
In addition along the way I have to come up with a total of 11 gold. Which means I've had to pick up and sell everything I've found everywhere.
Now I can hit the button to start cooking my keys - so in 20 hours I can do my 3 dungeons.
Assuming I have a bit of pre-planning in me I can use the keys I made yesterday. But to run 3 dungeons and open all of the chests - I have to spend at least an hour or more (on my healadin soloing its about 2-3 hours to complete those daily quests) of my limited time - gathering bits and bobs to make keys that then take me 20 hours to concoct.
But the big wall is actually the gold. At 3-5 gold per key, with limited inventory space and "priceless" items selling for copper... I hope you see what I'm getting at.
The answers to the responses I am expecting:
Yes I could make more gold - but then we are back to the average player has limited time to play, and as much as I dislike fishing, I also don't want to spend my time wandering around places that drop garbage to sell hoping to get at least 11 gold per day - this is dungeons and dragons - not fishing and antiques road show.
But Raven - this is where you can spend your $$ to buy the keys - yes but as I said before, I haven't seen anything come out of those chests that is worth real $$ to me.
Also keep in mind - I'm the person who has lost 4 keys so far to the chests that glitched and didn't give ANYTHING.
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
@diloul31 Pretty much all of my other posts contained the same overall concept... Where had I mentioned that players were doing it wrong? Have I not been giving suggestions on how to accomplish the same things without relying on dungeons? If any of my posts offended anyone or seemed inconsiderate I apologize because it was not my intent.
The better service and low prices can bring in more customers but even then it's not guaranteed, it can appeal to a lot but for sure not everyone, it's like having a business with great customer service and low prices but overall bad products, sure it will attract the "penny pinchers" and the occasional spenders but overall it won't.
Lowering base Zen prices too much and or period will effect how much they are bringing in (they already do so temporarily via sales and coupons which drop quite frequently and did with the 250 Zen LDK's). So for every 5 LDK's bought via cash there's 50 Zen worth not coming in per transaction as it did before. Every 5 sets of keys bought with cash Cryptic essentially gave a set away, though that set is going to the players.
Just like with the suggestions about lowering the crafted key timers. 20 hrs for a key from a "minimal" amount of effort (a few quests, even faster in a group) in my opinion is more than reasonably, especially when taking into account the numbers of ways to generate large amounts of AD to get keys much faster. If campaigns didn't have the craftable key option I'm pretty sure I would feel different. Cryptic is giving players a number of options to reach a goal(s) and what I don't agree with is players choosing the "least effort requiring route(s)" and complaining that they aren't getting what they want.
@ravenskya How about stacking keys for a few days to give yourself more room to run dungeons without having to always quest first to get the requirements for the next day? Or even save them for the weekend or a day you have more breathing room to play? You don't have to always:
Quest > Start key > Use key > Repeat
You can
Quest > Start key > Repeat a comfortable number of times
Then
Use key > Use key > Quest > Start key
or any combination while having additional keys ready to use. You can also spend about 3k AD here and there for items that sell for higher amounts of gold.
Matter of fact I'm willing to help you at least here and there with questing (even better if when you get on to play I'm in that groove), sometimes I run zones on multiple characters. What about that?
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
I appreciate your offer - but in the same vein you made my point.
My friends and I are dungeon crawlers. We went through the campaigns already and only 1 of us likes fishing (not me). We are now put in a position where we have to do parts of the game we aren't as fond of and do it more frequently in order to get the treasure we are hunting in the parts of the game we like. Basically we are being told - you like this part of the game? Then do this other part that you don't like for a few hours every night and THEN you can play the part that you like on the weekends for a few hours.
Half of the group is already drifting into other games. The chats have stopped being about getting the next best BIS gear on Neverwinter and are instead about two games that come out in March. This is what is making me sad - I loved this game. I wanted to be part of it for a long time. I wouldn't have built a 125 person guild if I hadn't planned on being here for a while. But we are dungeon crawlers and everything about this game seems to want to force us out of our happy place.
Am I personally fine with the changes? No, but at the same time I've never gotten anything good out of this game... my RNG on here is terrible (yeah 48 preservation wards on a 20% chance - I'd like to slap someone over that math). I've known all along that I wouldn't get anything out of this game. So frankly getting nothing good out of one chest or getting nothing good out of two chests is all the same to me - I am here for as long as my friends are here.
And they are slowly disappearing. Even the head of our alliance is talking about abandoning ship... I want them to make it better before that happens.
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
@ravenskya I'm sorry that the change is effecting you all in that manner. Would invite you all to our Guild/Alliance though I wish not to insult you by doing so.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
@trinity you keep defending pw because they are a business adn they need to make money. but we are the "customers" and want to see a successful game because we like this game and want to continue playing it. the problem is they are making some serious blunders. there are ways they can make money and keep their player base happy instead of HAMSTER their playerbase over and making them very unhappy. We dissent here because there is the very far chance someone might actually take a hint and change things a little in a path that might actually make their player base happy. there is always more than one way to a solution and pw seems to have a way of picking the most insulting and heavy handed. they lack the understanding that you have to give value for the money demanded in a f2p game. Dungeons are the core of this game and right now the dungeons are (if you disagree or agree) pay to play. the cost of a key exceeds teh amount you are likely to get from it. the dungeons are also part of a bigger scheme of get the ad this way to "improve your character" obviously this doesn't hold true for the end end game players but the majority of the player base is NOT yet in the 3k range. some do NOT have vip. the second chests are even more of a loss in value except for maybe cn.
they need to ungate that and find a way to make the player happy and make money from us. I still think they should just ad a 50 pack of keys for 5 dollars outside the ingame zen store. its a low enough price point that even the grinders would be happy with it and something that would work for a repeat purchase. and just ungate the keys you can make with grind.
Just because a business is a business does not mean they have to make stoopid business decisions to make money. you make LESS money when you make hamhanded business decisions than you would if your business decisions are still somewhat generous towards the customer.
Yes people can choose to not give money.. and a lot more are goign to choose no to giving money than choosing to give money with business decisions like these.
@diloul31 Pretty much all of my other posts contained the same overall concept... Where had I mentioned that players were doing it wrong? Have I not been giving suggestions on how to accomplish the same things without relying on dungeons? If any of my posts offended anyone or seemed inconsiderate I apologize because it was not my intent.
The better service and low prices can bring in more customers but even then it's not guaranteed, it can appeal to a lot but for sure not everyone, it's like having a business with great customer service and low prices but overall bad products, sure it will attract the "penny pinchers" and the occasional spenders but overall it won't.
so they need to change their services to offer good products. it's in their control. they're going to get a lot more money by changing some things than keeping it as it is.
Lowering base Zen prices too much and or period will effect how much they are bringing in (they already do so temporarily via sales and coupons which drop quite frequently and did with the 250 Zen LDK's). So for every 5 LDK's bought via cash there's 50 Zen worth not coming in per transaction as it did before. Every 5 sets of keys bought with cash Cryptic essentially gave a set away, though that set is going to the players.
well you could say that, but it's not really so. it's enticing people to buy more. they're probably going to get many more sales than hypothetical lost one for that key price reduction than they would have gotten before. the lower your price the bigger your market. you make a lot more in nickle and dime sales than trying to ask for a donkey load every time. their prices are egregious as a general rule. even 250 is too much for this particular product. its NOT cheap it's over priced. really over priced.
Just like with the suggestions about lowering the crafted key timers. 20 hrs for a key from a "minimal" amount of effort (a few quests, even faster in a group) in my opinion is more than reasonably, especially when taking into account the numbers of ways to generate large amounts of AD to get keys much faster. If campaigns didn't have the craftable key option I'm pretty sure I would feel different. Cryptic is giving players a number of options to reach a goal(s) and what I don't agree with is players choosing the "least effort requiring route(s)" and complaining that they aren't getting what they want.
well glad you think so. but 99.9 percent of us DON"T think so. yeah you can generate ad and buy the keys but it's a terrible value for your money and do you REALLY think fishing is NOT a grind????? honestly????? for the price of the keys you can just go out and buy the fun things in this game that you "might" get from a drop in a dungeon and come out money ahead.. what's the point of playing the game at all then? if people want to spend their time making money and grinding JUST to make money sure they can. they've always had that ability but that's NOT THE POINT.. the point is people enjoy hanging with their friends running the dungeons and seeing what they get. PWE has basically made that hard for people to do now and they're going to lose the casuals over this and they NEED the casuals. we need the casuals. it should be easy and free to run the dungeons with friends. after a certain point in the game it should be the POINT of the game. running mindless dailies should NOT be the point of the game. this game does start to feel like WORK after awhile that somehow we're PAYING to do.. that's backwards. reallly backwards and some people are smart enough to say whoa nellie.. ENOUGH.. some say whip me more pls. I don't get the masochists..
@thefiresidecat I'm defending the other opportunities other than dungeons players can tap into to afford pretty much whatever is they want. The examples I stated about revenue, etc., etc. are pretty much how Cryptic is looking at it, as well as the opinions on the forums though they still hold the decision on what to do about it.
If a number of players stop spending cash and Neverwinter stays producing revenue then to Cryptic they will probably see it as they are still doing pretty good (a number of players are complaining on the forums though we are still bringing in considerable amounts of revenue).
Again (agree or disagree), they are ways to continue running multiple dungeons and improving ones character without spending a dime, this will pretty much remain true as long as the AD exchange exists with Zen in it. Whether a player wants to or not the other options still exist and ignoring them doesn't make them go away.
The "core" of this game depends on the player.
Again a number of players here think that the SOLE purpose of the key change was to make money and nothing else, no player here knows the reasons behind the key change, only speculation and people are basing their negative thoughts and feelings off of this speculation.
Again, don't spend cash and let's see how far it goes...
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Yes with no exchange it will be problem, but right now you can save some zen and use it later. Honestly even without zen exchange, 9.99 e per mounth for game you enjoy isnt too much. About dungeons.. I have no problem get party in guild or channels, but yea I get what are you trying to say, without keys is no point to run dungeons. Did you run ecc,etos all day before ? I doubt it. Maybe a few times for salvage but you dont grind it, there was no point to do it. So I take this little chance for something then nothing. Dude If you are really play this game from beta you know you cant have big expectations, just play it till you get bored. Its never gonna be better q:D
I got to admit something.
Actually i did grind ECC . Not for salvage, or the money. We actually did it in order to learn that dungeon and to achive no deaths. You remember how hard that was. My skills where not so high and IL was not so important back then.
And tru that. No big expectations are needed. I do know that. I am just sad my guild is losing players over something that could have been solved long time ago. But it was not. It was " fixed " now. When NW is not on its beggining. You see my point i hope.
@thefiresidecat I'm defending the other opportunities other than dungeons players can tap into to afford pretty much whatever is they want. The examples I stated about revenue, etc., etc. are pretty much how Cryptic is looking at it, as well as the opinions on the forums though they still hold the decision on what to do about it.
If a number of players stop spending cash and Neverwinter stays producing revenue then to Cryptic they will probably see it as they are still doing pretty good (a number of players are complaining on the forums though we are still bringing in considerable amounts of revenue).
Again (agree or disagree), they are ways to continue running multiple dungeons and improving ones character without spending a dime, this will pretty much remain true as long as the AD exchange exists with Zen in it. Whether a player wants to or not the other options still exist and ignoring them doesn't make them go away.
The "core" of this game depends on the player.
Again a number of players here think that the SOLE purpose of the key change was to make money and nothing else, no player here knows the reasons behind the key change, only speculation and people are basing their negative thoughts and feelings off of this speculation.
Again, don't spend cash and let's see how far it goes...
Do you think I have a basic lack of understanding about how they are probably looking at things or where you are coming from? seriously? using phraseology like that is an emotional tool to try and make the other party think you somehow have a higher hand than they do without actually having any such thing. LOL.
condescension.. lovely stuff.
Yes. it's a business we get that. Yes, they make business"ey" decisions we get that.. Derp.. seriously derp.
the problem is they make BAD business decisions and we are trying to HELP them here.
and yes people can have different reasons for playing this game but the core really is to run dungeons and do dragons.. thus it's a dungeons and dragons game. yes you can make money in game without spending a dime.. not the point of the people in this thread.
and thanks for the suggestion not to spend cash and see how far it goes. I hadn't thought of that. (again derp really? ty capt obvious )
and yes the sole purpose of this change is to make more money. The key change was a cash grab. There is no other explanation for it. Every year at this time, there is a drastic cash grab that pisses off the player base and loses a good portion of them. it has been handled as usual, not so well. Although kudos to them for at least making an improvement in the overall drop table per player outrage.
I think really what the problem here is that trinity is a PS4 player. And as such hasn't been around long enough to see and experience first hand as many blunders, terrible business decisions, and blatant money grabs as PC has seen, and to a lesser extent XBox. It's easy to be optimistic about and have faith in something that hasn't burned you yet.
So after a couple hundred Edemos and Demos ran since change, still no +5 drop. Good job increased drop rate. Still waiting on a +5 Brutality...
Increased from 0.0010 to 0.0015 or something in the quality, supposedly, since they didn't claim to have doubled or tripled the chance. That's not somethings many of us will notice, even if we had a correctly implemented RNG at our disposal.
It's ten times the original drop rate so that's not even possible.
My apologies, next time I may include my lovely "general statement" divider to denote when I am addressing readers in general, seemingly since it is so easy for someone to take them personal even though I did not use pronouns such as "you".
If you are pulling "condescension" and or that I am trying to invoke an emotional response simply from words on a screen (how does one allow that to happen to themselves negatively? especially on the forums...) I think that you are reading FAR too much into my statements...
However one may look at their "business decisions", let us remember, from the outside looking in, the "numbers" (player base/revenue) will tell the tale for the most part. Again if the numbers remain even after the key change things will probably stay the same or similar. Now if someone from within can win the shot callers over in favor of the players that would be all well and good, though as I previously stated, if they are satisfied with the numbers then good luck with that.
Again who knows for a fact that the key change was made SOLELY, not partially, to increase revenue and can provide evidence to support such claims? Anybody? Just me and the crickets then. If players are used to the "ebb and flow", why would they not prepare themselves for it (rhetorical)?
So not opting into "money grabs" is not an option on any version of Neverwinter? Are players that into this game that changes can/are effecting them "negatively" in various ways? I'm just asking. I mean I enjoy Neverwinter, it's a fun game for me and for the most part that's how I treat it, though such "money grabs" if I choose not to partake in them I just use AD instead of allowing it to hinder my progress and or cause me "discomfort" as many players seemingly do.
I meant it as I stated it. Let me clarify it though, there are items on the trade house for around 3k AD that sell for 6+ gold a stack, the gold the player I was addressing was stating they were often short of. It can take less than 10 minutes to get gold if AD is used (if no AD is available).
For me it's any map for toons < 2k, any may with a tank or healer < 2.5k and any of the new map, WOD or IWD with any toon.
Group up.
If players run zones alone of course it will take them longer, I'm assuming this is the case here since I haven't seen anyone mention it. Again, players don't have to run daily quest for currency, start a key and run dungeons each session they play, save the keys for a day you can run straight dungeons and or DF, Influence, etc. (just a suggestion). Seems to me a number of players are consciously making it harder on themselves.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Keys arent the only poblem on PS4... Just before key update, it was easy and fast to join a random group with queue even if most of times it would means no tank/heal .
It's absolutely not possible anymore...
Since the fix, the queue take so looooong and end with no results... Meanwhile you spam chat at town and even with my 3k sw dps/buff, so few groups invit me for a simple CN ( or shoulf i say "us" because i see others spamming with no results)...
Maybe on PC throuht the years, people had time to make viables tanks/heals as rerolls... But on PS4 it's a whole different story for us...
Most of players start the game by creating a dps, it make sense, it's just brutal fun...
It's an other reason i don't understand Cryptic, they trow a stone in the water without even cosidering consequences...
These days even more than the key problem, the lack of successfull queueing is what make quit the game...
Basically on PS4, there is many players that dont have vip keys, dont have ldk and mixed with the queue fix, you spend more time searching for a group than playing...
Good game Cryptic, you nailed it.. You nailed it like a coffin i mean...
So not opting into "money grabs" is not an option on any version of Neverwinter? Are players that into this game that changes can/are effecting them "negatively" in various ways? I'm just asking. I mean I enjoy Neverwinter, it's a fun game for me and for the most part that's how I treat it, though such "money grabs" if I choose not to partake in them I just use AD instead of allowing it to hinder my progress and or cause me "discomfort" as many players seemingly do.
Again, I think it is a fundamental lack of experience with how changes have effected the game and players over the past almost 4 years now that players who only started to play on PS4 are unaware of, that is the problem. Of course no one has to opt into money grabs and bad calls. No one has to grind content they don't enjoy, and no one has to fall victim to the bait and switch tactics they've pulled on us from time to time. Unfortunately newer people aren't aware of how bad it can get, and fall victim to it, making it worthwhile for them cryptic try and pull them in the first place, and players familiar with it see it for what it is and already sick with it become more fed up. When one of us is effected negatively, we are all effected negatively. Every player that leaves because they are sick of it diminishes the gameplay of everyone else in some way. Contrary to a post you made earlier where you asserted that you think millions of people play the game, the numbers are nowhere near that close. I cannot say for XBox and PS4, but it's been suggested that PC has no more than a few thousand players in game at any given time, beyond the release of new mods and content. I'd be surprised if we had more than 20,000 unique visitors a day. Players have left en masse before from terrible decisions like Mod 6 release on PC, and we have never truly recovered from it. I know people who after a few days of the key change gave up because they didn't see anything having gotten better. Some are so used to bad decisions and negative outcomes of meddling with the game they just assume it, and don't even give it a chance.
The anger and dismay you are seeing here is a result of enjoying and being passionate about the game, and not wanting to see it get worse, and wanting more people to play.
There is also the principle of the matter as well. You may not think that using ADs to purchase zen is buying into it, but in a way it is. Most of that Zen was purchased by someone else using real money, and you buying it is part of a cycle that ultimately rewards cryptic and pwe for subpar content, a groundhogs day of grindfest, money-grabs, and bait and switch maneuvers. I've spent money on the game before, but I will not until I see the state of the game improving. For the same reason I refuse to use the ZAX because of that.
In any case if you want some up to date examples of bait and switch, swing by the Neverwinter Preview discussion area and look for a thread about the new weapons.
Of course I'm going to mention being part of a Guild/Alliance.
If a player chooses to stay in an inactive Guild/Alliance that is on them. When players leave, replace them, if your Guild isn't providing what you are looking for find another. Of course there are the instances where players have friends, etc., but they are faced with staying in a ghost town or going somewhere more fruitful.
Queue with a full group and you will almost instantly get into a dungeon, or queue with as many as possible to cut down on the wait time. Add people from past runs (tanks/healers/DPS) to your friends list so you know when they are online and possibly available. Standing around in Protector's Enclave or wherever instead of doing all a player can to ease queuing is self inflicted stress.
As far as the Stronghold XP "abuse" goes some players depended on it so much that when it was changed they couldn't recover. I hope no one really thought getting to lvl 70 within a few hours and skipping major portions of the game/experience was intended...
Players can still help each other lvl up characters by questing together, that has always been available to players even before the instant lvl 70 Zen option. The players that went through the leveling process outside of the Stronghold were unaffected by the Stronghold XP cut, only the players that took part in it felt the difference.
Seeing players focusing on particular aspects of the game almost certainly the developers, etc. will try to figure out a way to monetize it (players want to lvl up fast, ok, let's introduce a Zen item that will grant the same end result for a price). Just like the players who find bugs/exploits and put it all over the internet, guess what, if the developers didn't know before they sure will after.
No matter what has been introduced in the Zen market the fact still remains that players can earn them via in-game activity, as long as this remains true players aren't forced to spend money.
Again, I think it is a fundamental lack of experience with how changes have effected the game and players over the past almost 4 years now that players who only started to play on PS4 are unaware of, that is the problem.
There is also the principle of the matter as well. You may not think that using ADs to purchase zen is buying into it, but in a way it is.
So PWE/Cyrptic are the only one's that provide a F2P MMO that has had similar issues?
It has been mentioned before somebody somewhere is still buying Zen (one side) for F2P's to convert AD into (the other side) and the F2P's are not buying the Zen themselves which is my point.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
@trinity706#8838 the history is pretty solidly there. and you can see the results without having any actual data pulled. last year at this time there was coalgate. where they did bait and switch with coalwards in the tarmalune store. they told us all that the price would be going down on coalwards significantly. so people hoarded their tarm bars, and sold their enchants before the change and then instead of lowering the price they removed them. there are giant threads about it go read them. they will delineate the details better than me. it was a clear cash grab to get you to buy things from the zen store. over night after that change was implemented the zax skyrocketed. guilds became ghost towns. the way this change was implemented won't show such dramatic results. I think it will be more of a trickle because people are curious about the new rng.. but I do think there will be a change. there was something earlier than that on xbox but I don't remember now. the pc people have more of a history than we do as mentioned. but yeah. I remember the first time it happened. (the thing I dont' remember now) I was also bucking for them thinking people were overreacting. there is a pattern though and they do make repeated bad decisions. sure over all they stay in business somehow. but they've also had a serious rotation in upper management. the way these things work is that you get someone new in the boardroom. they don't play games like these no idea how we work or perceive things. they say hey if we do this we will make a ton. do it. because they need to make a mark. they need to have something to show for their yearly performance review to justify their salary. maybe the devs say.. but... but.... no.. but the new bigwig has a mark to leave.. so it happens. it's pushed thru. it fails the numbers are poor they lose players. they slowly recover. the new big wig is shown as a loss.. eventually they cycle out and a new guy comes in. cycle repeated. just because it's a business decision with the idea they are going to make money doesn't mean it's actually a successful attempt. pointy haired boss is about it.
Comments
We are not willing to do so, so as many of us with no drops shouldnt be considered a bad system in general like you said.
The same goes for your effort system, it should apply as well, your case can't be the same for all and considered THE solution.
You are just saying basically to oppose grind to greed as a solution, thats all.
Since you edited your post after I replied to it:
When players convert AD to Zen they are utilizing Zen other players bought for a whole of other things other than LDK's. You act as if players don't buy Zen mounts, campaign completions, Stronghold items, bags, refinement, packs, items, companions, etc., etc., etc. Again, if players don't buy Zen for whatever reason(s) there won't be any Zen for the F2P's to convert AD into. If LDK's were the ONLY item in the Zen market your argument would hold weight but since they are not, well...
Everybody does not hold dungeons in as high regard as a number of players do and just like the dungeoneers who oppose the key change are posting in this thread, players who can and have worked around it are as well. This isn't a bash Cryptic only thread, it's open to players with various views, perspectives, thoughts and feelings about the key change and trying to shut them out so the bash party can rage on uninterrupted is not only selfish but also inconsiderate.
I'm assuming the positive posts about the key change are "damaging" the hope of it changing...
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
I dit it myself, i bought bags, mounts, vip.
150e in 6 months of real cash...
So there is a many ways to generate revenue for Cryptic and that bs keys update wasnt a necessity at all...
You are telling that is normal for me that after that amount spent in the game to either buy keys or grind old campaign....
I DONT WONT TO AND I DESERVE AS A DECENT CUSTOMER ( and even if i wasnt) TO NOT BEING FORCED TO GRIND OLD CAMPAIGNS TO CRAFT KEYS OR BUYS KEYS.
EASY SOLUTION : im vip, i have 3 normal key chets everyday, give me 3 legendary for my vip too.
That way much more people will buy vip = income for Cryptic, keys for us, everyone happy...
After all they lived without dunjeons keys income for years, no reason to not continue exept greed.
God you are so stubborn...
Why is it so hard to understand that ???!!
If that continues , fine No problem. We will all be happy campers.
But it will not.
Remember the time when it crashed and no one could get any Zen out of it , for their AD?
I do. How long did it last ? Do you remember ?
I am actually expecting it to happen.
I have VIP since it got out.
Got it cos i truly hated one thing. Traps in ECC. Back when ECC was a " hard " dungeon. lol
So when i saw what exactly , VIP will get me I went for it.
Enchanted keys are a bonus, that never , from BETA, gave me anything legendary.
And i am fine with it.
I just do not have luck. I accepted that , cos we can not all be happy RNG goers. If i want to play NW i have to accept the casino effect of the Lockboxes.
However, epic dungeon keys are something different.
Not one person in my guild is not running dungeons .
If they have alts they now run little dungeons on alts, and few on main. Keys get spent.
Why ? Cos we have no other option then to open the chest to get our the loot.
I am not okay with it.
Will probably never be.
Each chest (total of 4) Gave me the two seals and a single piece of salvage gear. No boss drops from any of the bosses. I discussed with the 4 people who were with me through these dungeons and only one got a boss drop of salvage - everyone ended up with the same thing. It's hard to get that crew into those dungeons since there is only a single chest to open and they feel like it's not worth it. But now that we are running out of secondary keys - every dungeon will be a single chest dungeon...
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
DO NOT BUY KEYS WITH MONEY
Want keys, convert AD to Zen, but then again the essential part of that formula is missing is, here's that "e" word again, effort, you know the effort that you don't want to put in?
No effort > No AD > No Zen conversion > No keys
If players want to limit themselves to an epic key or epic key and crafted key(s) per session that's fine as well, but when they complain, guess what?
Players aren't forced to do previous campaigns to craft keys, it's just another option they have. If the majority of players would stop opting out of all or at least some of the available options they have to get around spending money (not even just for keys) then the key change I'm willing to bet wouldn't have had such a big commotion about it.
Btw, got a unbound Lantern of Revelation the other day off a Boss and over 500k in trade house sales yesterday...
If players would step out of the dark, dank dungeons then maybe they would see the light of Neverwinter (pun intended).
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Yes with no exchange it will be problem, but right now you can save some zen and use it later. Honestly even without zen exchange, 9.99 e per mounth for game you enjoy isnt too much. About dungeons.. I have no problem get party in guild or channels, but yea I get what are you trying to say, without keys is no point to run dungeons. Did you run ecc,etos all day before ? I doubt it. Maybe a few times for salvage but you dont grind it, there was no point to do it. So I take this little chance for something then nothing. Dude If you are really play this game from beta you know you cant have big expectations, just play it till you get bored. Its never gonna be better q:D
Even before the key change we all just held onto our campaign keys checking chests for a horn/shard that never dropped. If that one piece of salvage is really making it a game breaker you just need to explain that campaign chest was never returning much value on the time invested in it before the chest either. Welcome to a Dungeons and Dragons MMO.
I already told you
- i do sharandar/ outerdark everyday
- i do skirmishs everyday
- it takes time to manage inventory, sales, scraping ect...
I farmed particules, i farmed ichor and i farm dunjeons...
And now i have to farm old campaign to create keys to be able to do dunjeons... Or enter the multiple characters grind ?
I keep telling you that i got nothing from the keys i used...
You get 500k everyday of drops good for you, boss always give me peridots or salvage <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>....
Did it cross your mind that if was lucky as you are i wouldnt be here complaining ? When something is too much in favor or players, it's nerfed so i would have no interest to shout on the roofs " i earn 500k everyday of drops"
But you are too stuborned to understand that...
I must not take my rng screwed for general and be happy for myself..
But i should take you great drops or grind system as THE thing to do...
Stop talking to us like we are kiddies, i'm 33 years old, two kids, 10 years working for a bank and selling stuff and actually working for one of the biggest planes provider in the world, buying parts at the best quality/prices all over the world.
So spare me your daddy lessons about how to run a bizness...
I never said they should stop taking income, i said they need to stop being greedy and always more greedy
Selling pixels and video games is a very different bizness than selling vegetables or cars...
When there is passion there is income...
That's why games like GTA or Kojima or naughty games, it provides gigantic loads off money.
You followed what happened at Konami ?
Hideo need 4 or 5 years and 200 people to make a great game.
Konami wanted 100 people max and 2 or 3 years max...
He basically said :" Screw you" and things went south...
So dont act like there is no greed in video games bizness or like Cryptic are saints...
Do you think guys behind Mass effect were fired years ago after last release and have been hired again for the next release ?
F2p are different, they dont instant cash but during years they earn same or more and the poor support does not justify always more income and greed.
When there is passion, there is natural incomes.
When all there is grind and fishing to mask the lack of content, there is no passion just greed...
i think it's reasonable to imagine there is millions of people playing the game on pc/xbox/ps4 if only one million have paid a month of vip with real cash then it's 10 millions income ...
Ofc, i'm not stupid, there is staff to pay, costs, blah blah blah but you see the idea...
And i'm not even talking about boosters and startings packs, mounts, bags, ect...
Trust me f2p is a very lucrative bizness otherwise it would have already disapeared...
( You didnt read the exellent article about laws around the world againstnew rng lockboxes.
Yet it's not madness or haters and well argumented.
No you quote only what suits you to prove me wrong...)
Time will prove me right...
But again, when will you say something about dunjeons removed and not being fixed since years, key update without the price drop that was suposed to happen WITH the update ?
Must be a bug...
Peace.
5 of us went through 4 dungeons - that's 3 bosses per dungeon and 1 chest at the end.
That's 60 opportunities for a boss drop - we saw 1 and it was salvage
That's 20 chests opened and ALL of them were seals, and one bit of salvage (worth 5500AD)
Until FBI these were the hardest dungeons available and they don't even drop an artifact... my crew liked hunting for the artifacts, which is why even though we have been able to do the epics, they stick to VT, eLoL and Malabogs which we at least know someone who has gotten something useful out of. We run CN now and then but we seem to regularly have an issue where someone can't open the chests, so it's disheartening there.
Today they ran eLoL about 6 times (i'm at work so they are FB messaging me) one guy got the horn twice both times dropped from Lostmauth - no key, from the keys one of my other friends got the belt.
Here is the thing - the loot drops are now what they should have been all along - while still being able to look into the chest without your key getting eaten. They just hosed us over for so long on the drops that most people are looking at this as a boon, when in reality its just and adjustment to where it should have been from the beginning.
So I run the epics and get 5500 worth of salvage per dungeon, I can refine 36K of it each day (not including the AD I get from the first two dungeon runs). If you are buying the keys from the dwarf at 5K AD each, you are only making the AD from the first two dungeons - which you could easily have gotten much more quickly from just plowing through cloak tower and not worrying about the chest at all since you know 100% that it's junk.
Keys still take entirely too long to make and any that take more than a single day of daily quests in the area are ridiculously over priced.
I guess what I'm saying is that I just don't understand how they think the epics are worth it other than just the challenge of running them.
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
If you and others feel Cryptic is being "greedy" don't buy Zen, then you will not be granting them revenue they are trying to bring in to continue providing the F2P game you all play, pretty much for free.
You don't have to do ANY of the things I suggested though more than likely you will continue to get the same results until you get a good drop and in the time between you can make much more AD than the drop is worth. Fishing is currently pretty much the most profitable thing to do in Neverwinter in regard to time spent/AD gain. If players choose to stick with dungeons and not partake that is their choice.
From your statement you have worked for someone else, not ran your own business...
What if your employer(s) came in one day and told everyone "We have made enough revenue for the year", see you all next year, or we haven't made enough so no one will be getting their bonuses, or we are understaffed so you can't take vacation? My point here is whatever Cryptic is doing with the revenue they bring in and or the reasons they do things the way they do it's really not our business, we are here to play the game, not tell them how to run their business. If we as the players don't like what's going on we can opt out and not play their game. As I stated before if there is that much resentment in regard to the key change don't play the game, when the number of players and revenue starts to drop I guarantee Cryptic will pay attention, until then they are more in a position to keep things the way they are...
I'm pretty sure there is greed in some video games companies (just like other types of companies) and when things get too bad for the players more and more of them leave and the company is faced with either letting their game go or making some changes. Even if Cryptic is being greedy (how could it be proven anyway? LOL), I know how to get around spending my own money if I don't want to. Cryptic at this moment is seemingly not in that position to make such changes since millions of people still play, have passion for the game and buy Zen and some players that spend money here and there.
I have read the article about lock boxes and a number of others as well and it still comes down to choice, players are choosing to spend money on a chance at virtual gains. I like dungeons though I also enjoy a lot of the content outside of the coveted dungeons. "RNG" works in my favor plenty and even more so since I don't solely/primarily rely on it for my progression in the game. @ravenskya What areas/zones do you feel take an "excessive" amount of time to complete daily quests to craft a key?
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Even if i disagree i like what you just wrote.
It's an opinion without the try to explain others, " i hold the truth and you are doing it all wrong
Again i'm not saying tha they should stop trying to make more money, just not the way it's done atctually...
And even without runing a company, i know the better service and low prices you offer, the more customers you drag.
They created the service to finish campaigns for exemple without doing them for 4500.
I dont like that but if people want do it i cant see why i would argue about that !
It's concrete you paid for a service to save time, ok !
Same goes for vip, mounts, pets, packs ect... You pay, you get something.
Even if you spend 1000e in these because you can afford it i respect that, no problem...
Make money by all means if it's fair...
There is zen, da, rad, gold, legion of currencies, make another than cant be obtained by playing the game i dont know...
You could buy things for small fee so its pure money in the pockets of pwe instead of playing the game of those who manipulate ah
See i'm open to everything just not giving me the choice to waste my time or waste my little earning in rng instead of what will help grow my toon.
What i'm trying to say from the beginning is i hate the key update because like i said.
I already spend my time doing my farm, the one i feel ok to do otherwise i dont play mmo.
I already have plans for what i stacked.
I was ok to farm dunjeons even with a slight chance equal to zero in the end i did not lost anything, no time to make currencies for keys and wait 24h and no ad/zen...
Now it's a complete different story, i do less dunjeons, the ones i do keep giving NOTHING ( today too).
i lost all my keys and i can't craft anymore because i dont have time to rerun campaigns and the little ad i earn i habe better plans for it than wasting it keys that give me nothing but frustration...
OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL
Casual Dailies
First I have to run 3 different dungeons (you can only make 1 key type at a time).
So lets say I'm planning on an eLoL, VT and Malabogs. First I have to run ALL of the Sharandar Daily quests that give crescents and sparks (I'm not at home on the game so some of this is from memory), then I have to run all of Dread Ring - including the heroics to get enough vanguard scripts. Then I'm off to run both the well of dragons daily quests AND the harper quests to get enough cult secrets.
In addition along the way I have to come up with a total of 11 gold. Which means I've had to pick up and sell everything I've found everywhere.
Now I can hit the button to start cooking my keys - so in 20 hours I can do my 3 dungeons.
Assuming I have a bit of pre-planning in me I can use the keys I made yesterday. But to run 3 dungeons and open all of the chests - I have to spend at least an hour or more (on my healadin soloing its about 2-3 hours to complete those daily quests) of my limited time - gathering bits and bobs to make keys that then take me 20 hours to concoct.
But the big wall is actually the gold. At 3-5 gold per key, with limited inventory space and "priceless" items selling for copper... I hope you see what I'm getting at.
The answers to the responses I am expecting:
Yes I could make more gold - but then we are back to the average player has limited time to play, and as much as I dislike fishing, I also don't want to spend my time wandering around places that drop garbage to sell hoping to get at least 11 gold per day - this is dungeons and dragons - not fishing and antiques road show.
But Raven - this is where you can spend your $$ to buy the keys - yes but as I said before, I haven't seen anything come out of those chests that is worth real $$ to me.
Also keep in mind - I'm the person who has lost 4 keys so far to the chests that glitched and didn't give ANYTHING.
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
The better service and low prices can bring in more customers but even then it's not guaranteed, it can appeal to a lot but for sure not everyone, it's like having a business with great customer service and low prices but overall bad products, sure it will attract the "penny pinchers" and the occasional spenders but overall it won't.
Lowering base Zen prices too much and or period will effect how much they are bringing in (they already do so temporarily via sales and coupons which drop quite frequently and did with the 250 Zen LDK's). So for every 5 LDK's bought via cash there's 50 Zen worth not coming in per transaction as it did before. Every 5 sets of keys bought with cash Cryptic essentially gave a set away, though that set is going to the players.
Just like with the suggestions about lowering the crafted key timers. 20 hrs for a key from a "minimal" amount of effort (a few quests, even faster in a group) in my opinion is more than reasonably, especially when taking into account the numbers of ways to generate large amounts of AD to get keys much faster. If campaigns didn't have the craftable key option I'm pretty sure I would feel different. Cryptic is giving players a number of options to reach a goal(s) and what I don't agree with is players choosing the "least effort requiring route(s)" and complaining that they aren't getting what they want.
@ravenskya How about stacking keys for a few days to give yourself more room to run dungeons without having to always quest first to get the requirements for the next day? Or even save them for the weekend or a day you have more breathing room to play? You don't have to always:
Quest > Start key > Use key > Repeat
You can
Quest > Start key > Repeat a comfortable number of times
Then
Use key > Use key > Quest > Start key
or any combination while having additional keys ready to use. You can also spend about 3k AD here and there for items that sell for higher amounts of gold.
Matter of fact I'm willing to help you at least here and there with questing (even better if when you get on to play I'm in that groove), sometimes I run zones on multiple characters. What about that?
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
I appreciate your offer - but in the same vein you made my point.
My friends and I are dungeon crawlers. We went through the campaigns already and only 1 of us likes fishing (not me). We are now put in a position where we have to do parts of the game we aren't as fond of and do it more frequently in order to get the treasure we are hunting in the parts of the game we like. Basically we are being told - you like this part of the game? Then do this other part that you don't like for a few hours every night and THEN you can play the part that you like on the weekends for a few hours.
Half of the group is already drifting into other games. The chats have stopped being about getting the next best BIS gear on Neverwinter and are instead about two games that come out in March. This is what is making me sad - I loved this game. I wanted to be part of it for a long time. I wouldn't have built a 125 person guild if I hadn't planned on being here for a while. But we are dungeon crawlers and everything about this game seems to want to force us out of our happy place.
Am I personally fine with the changes? No, but at the same time I've never gotten anything good out of this game... my RNG on here is terrible (yeah 48 preservation wards on a 20% chance - I'd like to slap someone over that math). I've known all along that I wouldn't get anything out of this game. So frankly getting nothing good out of one chest or getting nothing good out of two chests is all the same to me - I am here for as long as my friends are here.
And they are slowly disappearing. Even the head of our alliance is talking about abandoning ship... I want them to make it better before that happens.
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
they need to ungate that and find a way to make the player happy and make money from us. I still think they should just ad a 50 pack of keys for 5 dollars outside the ingame zen store. its a low enough price point that even the grinders would be happy with it and something that would work for a repeat purchase. and just ungate the keys you can make with grind.
Just because a business is a business does not mean they have to make stoopid business decisions to make money. you make LESS money when you make hamhanded business decisions than you would if your business decisions are still somewhat generous towards the customer.
Yes people can choose to not give money.. and a lot more are goign to choose no to giving money than choosing to give money with business decisions like these.
well glad you think so. but 99.9 percent of us DON"T think so. yeah you can generate ad and buy the keys but it's a terrible value for your money and do you REALLY think fishing is NOT a grind????? honestly????? for the price of the keys you can just go out and buy the fun things in this game that you "might" get from a drop in a dungeon and come out money ahead.. what's the point of playing the game at all then? if people want to spend their time making money and grinding JUST to make money sure they can. they've always had that ability but that's NOT THE POINT.. the point is people enjoy hanging with their friends running the dungeons and seeing what they get. PWE has basically made that hard for people to do now and they're going to lose the casuals over this and they NEED the casuals. we need the casuals. it should be easy and free to run the dungeons with friends. after a certain point in the game it should be the POINT of the game. running mindless dailies should NOT be the point of the game. this game does start to feel like WORK after awhile that somehow we're PAYING to do.. that's backwards. reallly backwards and some people are smart enough to say whoa nellie.. ENOUGH.. some say whip me more pls. I don't get the masochists..
If a number of players stop spending cash and Neverwinter stays producing revenue then to Cryptic they will probably see it as they are still doing pretty good (a number of players are complaining on the forums though we are still bringing in considerable amounts of revenue).
Again (agree or disagree), they are ways to continue running multiple dungeons and improving ones character without spending a dime, this will pretty much remain true as long as the AD exchange exists with Zen in it. Whether a player wants to or not the other options still exist and ignoring them doesn't make them go away.
The "core" of this game depends on the player.
Again a number of players here think that the SOLE purpose of the key change was to make money and nothing else, no player here knows the reasons behind the key change, only speculation and people are basing their negative thoughts and feelings off of this speculation.
Again, don't spend cash and let's see how far it goes...
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Actually i did grind ECC . Not for salvage, or the money.
We actually did it in order to learn that dungeon and to achive no deaths.
You remember how hard that was.
My skills where not so high and IL was not so important back then.
And tru that. No big expectations are needed. I do know that.
I am just sad my guild is losing players over something that could have been solved long time ago.
But it was not. It was " fixed " now. When NW is not on its beggining.
You see my point i hope.
Do you think I have a basic lack of understanding about how they are probably looking at things or where you are coming from? seriously? using phraseology like that is an emotional tool to try and make the other party think you somehow have a higher hand than they do without actually having any such thing. LOL.
condescension.. lovely stuff.
Yes. it's a business we get that. Yes, they make business"ey" decisions we get that.. Derp.. seriously derp.
the problem is they make BAD business decisions and we are trying to HELP them here.
and yes people can have different reasons for playing this game but the core really is to run dungeons and do dragons.. thus it's a dungeons and dragons game.
yes you can make money in game without spending a dime.. not the point of the people in this thread.
and thanks for the suggestion not to spend cash and see how far it goes. I hadn't thought of that. (again derp really? ty capt obvious
and yes the sole purpose of this change is to make more money. The key change was a cash grab. There is no other explanation for it. Every year at this time, there is a drastic cash grab that pisses off the player base and loses a good portion of them. it has been handled as usual, not so well. Although kudos to them for at least making an improvement in the overall drop table per player outrage.
My apologies, next time I may include my lovely "general statement" divider to denote when I am addressing readers in general, seemingly since it is so easy for someone to take them personal even though I did not use pronouns such as "you".
If you are pulling "condescension" and or that I am trying to invoke an emotional response simply from words on a screen (how does one allow that to happen to themselves negatively? especially on the forums...) I think that you are reading FAR too much into my statements...
However one may look at their "business decisions", let us remember, from the outside looking in, the "numbers" (player base/revenue) will tell the tale for the most part. Again if the numbers remain even after the key change things will probably stay the same or similar. Now if someone from within can win the shot callers over in favor of the players that would be all well and good, though as I previously stated, if they are satisfied with the numbers then good luck with that.
Again who knows for a fact that the key change was made SOLELY, not partially, to increase revenue and can provide evidence to support such claims? Anybody? Just me and the crickets then. If players are used to the "ebb and flow", why would they not prepare themselves for it (rhetorical)?
@viciouscosity
So not opting into "money grabs" is not an option on any version of Neverwinter? Are players that into this game that changes can/are effecting them "negatively" in various ways? I'm just asking. I mean I enjoy Neverwinter, it's a fun game for me and for the most part that's how I treat it, though such "money grabs" if I choose not to partake in them I just use AD instead of allowing it to hinder my progress and or cause me "discomfort" as many players seemingly do.
@kalindra
I meant it as I stated it. Let me clarify it though, there are items on the trade house for around 3k AD that sell for 6+ gold a stack, the gold the player I was addressing was stating they were often short of. It can take less than 10 minutes to get gold if AD is used (if no AD is available). Group up.
If players run zones alone of course it will take them longer, I'm assuming this is the case here since I haven't seen anyone mention it. Again, players don't have to run daily quest for currency, start a key and run dungeons each session they play, save the keys for a day you can run straight dungeons and or DF, Influence, etc. (just a suggestion). Seems to me a number of players are consciously making it harder on themselves.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Just before key update, it was easy and fast to join a random group with queue even if most of times it would means no tank/heal .
It's absolutely not possible anymore...
Since the fix, the queue take so looooong and end with no results...
Meanwhile you spam chat at town and even with my 3k sw dps/buff, so few groups invit me for a simple CN ( or shoulf i say "us" because i see others spamming with no results)...
Maybe on PC throuht the years, people had time to make viables tanks/heals as rerolls... But on PS4 it's a whole different story for us...
Most of players start the game by creating a dps, it make sense, it's just brutal fun...
It's an other reason i don't understand Cryptic, they trow a stone in the water without even cosidering consequences...
These days even more than the key problem, the lack of successfull queueing is what make quit the game...
Basically on PS4, there is many players that dont have vip keys, dont have ldk and mixed with the queue fix, you spend more time searching for a group than playing...
Good game Cryptic, you nailed it.. You nailed it like a coffin i mean...
The anger and dismay you are seeing here is a result of enjoying and being passionate about the game, and not wanting to see it get worse, and wanting more people to play.
There is also the principle of the matter as well. You may not think that using ADs to purchase zen is buying into it, but in a way it is. Most of that Zen was purchased by someone else using real money, and you buying it is part of a cycle that ultimately rewards cryptic and pwe for subpar content, a groundhogs day of grindfest, money-grabs, and bait and switch maneuvers. I've spent money on the game before, but I will not until I see the state of the game improving. For the same reason I refuse to use the ZAX because of that.
In any case if you want some up to date examples of bait and switch, swing by the Neverwinter Preview discussion area and look for a thread about the new weapons.
Of course I'm going to mention being part of a Guild/Alliance.
If a player chooses to stay in an inactive Guild/Alliance that is on them. When players leave, replace them, if your Guild isn't providing what you are looking for find another. Of course there are the instances where players have friends, etc., but they are faced with staying in a ghost town or going somewhere more fruitful.
Queue with a full group and you will almost instantly get into a dungeon, or queue with as many as possible to cut down on the wait time. Add people from past runs (tanks/healers/DPS) to your friends list so you know when they are online and possibly available. Standing around in Protector's Enclave or wherever instead of doing all a player can to ease queuing is self inflicted stress.
As far as the Stronghold XP "abuse" goes some players depended on it so much that when it was changed they couldn't recover. I hope no one really thought getting to lvl 70 within a few hours and skipping major portions of the game/experience was intended...
Players can still help each other lvl up characters by questing together, that has always been available to players even before the instant lvl 70 Zen option. The players that went through the leveling process outside of the Stronghold were unaffected by the Stronghold XP cut, only the players that took part in it felt the difference.
Seeing players focusing on particular aspects of the game almost certainly the developers, etc. will try to figure out a way to monetize it (players want to lvl up fast, ok, let's introduce a Zen item that will grant the same end result for a price). Just like the players who find bugs/exploits and put it all over the internet, guess what, if the developers didn't know before they sure will after.
No matter what has been introduced in the Zen market the fact still remains that players can earn them via in-game activity, as long as this remains true players aren't forced to spend money. So PWE/Cyrptic are the only one's that provide a F2P MMO that has had similar issues?
It has been mentioned before somebody somewhere is still buying Zen (one side) for F2P's to convert AD into (the other side) and the F2P's are not buying the Zen themselves which is my point.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen