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Update on the Dungeon Key Change

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  • urabaskurabask Member Posts: 2,923 Arc User
    edited January 2017

    urabask said:


    I mean I've been regularly making about 500k AD a day just from drops but never mind that.

    Ah...here are the 500k again. The 500k like this one?
    urabask said:

    But say Heart of the Blue Dragon will hold steady at 500k AD.

    I guess every thing you get is worth 500k, even if the AH tells a different story. 500k per day from drops? Plz. Dont go any further with this obvious .......
    And trinity?
    Do you really think the droprate is increased cuzz you got lost horn in eLoL after 20 runs? Srly? Dont need to answer. Its senseless to talk to you, i guess. You saif "False" and forgot that i stated "wot kinda loot at b 1 and b2?". Ofc there is loot mostly at endboss. But its not garantued. So we have to open chests. And if you need 3 different types of legendary marks in svardborg, wth cares about a lost horn?



    It dropped to 400-450k. Oh no.

    I guess that invalidates the two air archons I had drop. Or the Phase Spider. Or the three Lantern of Revelation. Or Priestess of Senahnine Moonbow. Man, I must be just imagining all the drops that I've gotten that are worth more AD than getting a few extra r8s every month.

    I don't get why you keep bringing up SVA because I've never said that there weren't problems with SVA. Believe it or not people play dungeons/skirmishes/trials besides SVA and the chest change makes them more rewarding. Also, the drop rate for artifacts is the most obvious change that they made. Shard of Orcus's Wand wouldn't be sitting at 1.5m right before a 2x RP otherwise.

    Oh look it's Pre Reaper of Souls Diablo 3 "LET'S FARM THE AH INSTEAD OF PLAYING THE GAME" all over again. Crappy loot tables, check! Bleeding players, check! I guess in a way Cryptic is trying to tell you to suck up your loss and move on, don't let the door hit you on the way out yadda yadda..you can be nice to the upcoming player churn by telling them to quit once they hit 60 or once they step into Protector's Enclave. I had yet to see someone who programs a bot to do just that though.


    After removing AD from leadership the AH has always been the primary way of gaining AD : \

    Heck even before that it was a close second if not better.
    I8r4ux9.jpg
  • This content has been removed.
  • ravenskyaravenskya Member Posts: 1,891 Arc User
    My drops have actually gotten WORSE since the update.

    I've run between 3-12 eLoL each day (depending on the time I had available) since the update:

    From the Right chest:
    Breyers
    Refinement
    Low level salvage

    From the left chest
    1) lostmauth belt
    1) Lostmauth horn
    1) set of those stupid money eater gauntlets (aka salvage)
    All of the other chests have had - elemental seals, 1 bit of salvage gear, 1 rank 5/6 enchant

    Boss Drops
    First boss is running at 50% chance of giving either a necklace or peridot
    Scorpions seems to run at about a 15% chance of dropping a peridot
    total of 3 drops from lostmauth - 2 peridots, 1 aquamarine

    Keep in mind - 4 times my keys have been taken by chests and nothing came out of them. That glitch was awesome. Submitted a ticket day 1, still haven't gotten the keys back yet. Two other friends have had this happen as well - one in CN the other in eLoL.

    I don't see where what I'm getting out of the chests is worth making keys for. I still only get the lostmauth gear on my healadin so I'm still convinced that the drop rate is higher for toons that have no need for the drop.

    Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold"
    Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
    Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP

  • urabaskurabask Member Posts: 2,923 Arc User
    ravenskya said:

    My drops have actually gotten WORSE since the update.

    I've run between 3-12 eLoL each day (depending on the time I had available) since the update:

    From the Right chest:
    Breyers
    Refinement
    Low level salvage

    From the left chest
    1) lostmauth belt
    1) Lostmauth horn
    1) set of those stupid money eater gauntlets (aka salvage)
    All of the other chests have had - elemental seals, 1 bit of salvage gear, 1 rank 5/6 enchant

    Boss Drops
    First boss is running at 50% chance of giving either a necklace or peridot
    Scorpions seems to run at about a 15% chance of dropping a peridot
    total of 3 drops from lostmauth - 2 peridots, 1 aquamarine

    Keep in mind - 4 times my keys have been taken by chests and nothing came out of them. That glitch was awesome. Submitted a ticket day 1, still haven't gotten the keys back yet. Two other friends have had this happen as well - one in CN the other in eLoL.

    I don't see where what I'm getting out of the chests is worth making keys for. I still only get the lostmauth gear on my healadin so I'm still convinced that the drop rate is higher for toons that have no need for the drop.

    No one is really running elol because the second key takes too much time to make. Everyone switched to VT once the chest change happened. Even then you should be running etos or CN ever since the salvage value change.
    I8r4ux9.jpg
  • diloul31diloul31 Member Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    My gamertag is diloul ingame (ps4)

    If a dev or anyone able to want to check my drops and prove that i'm lying abouts dunjeons drops and locked chests, please do so.

    Since update by runing every dunjeon almost everyday i got ( when it was possible queues never end since there is so few tanks and heals in the game and the class queue fix)
    - +5 defense ring binded
    - symbol of earth sold 250k when you remove fees
    - tiamat necklace (worth 15k)
    - ioun stone bided
    - face of bloody lord with just beautiful but useless for the moment.
    - dwarf item for campaign 50k after fees


    Basically it's like a refund...

    It's more than 20 keys used not counting vip keys...

    20 keys = 1200 zen = 360 000 da
    I won a 250k artiact, can you do the math ?

    To be fair i didnt buy these keys had them before or crafted the days i had gold. ( can't anymore)
    Locked chest openened almost everyday since i started to play with daily free keys and 20 bought during black friday the only good drop was a 300k worth companion and diamond :)
    (vip is still good imo anyway but still wouldnt hurt to get something nice from time to time)
    I'm not sure why i should be amazed with these amazing drops :D

    Good game for you 500k/daily...
    Post edited by diloul31 on
  • ravenskyaravenskya Member Posts: 1,891 Arc User
    urabask said:


    No one is really running elol because the second key takes too much time to make. Everyone switched to VT once the chest change happened. Even then you should be running etos or CN ever since the salvage value change.

    I do run etos and CN, ran CN last night and neither of the chests would open for one of our clerics. At least he didn't lose a key on it, he just wasted the run.

    We ran elol a lot before the change as the starter dungeon for people just getting into dungeons - it's quick and we know it like the back of our hands and if everyone dies any one of us can still finish it. So we take new people through there quite often(and have been for the last 3 months).

    Because I am most familiar with the drop rates - it seemed to be the best dungeon to experiment with since the change. I also had a stash of keys piled up.

    The point is, as you clearly made - they made a dungeon worthless to the players.

    Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold"
    Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
    Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP

  • urabaskurabask Member Posts: 2,923 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    ravenskya said:

    urabask said:


    No one is really running elol because the second key takes too much time to make. Everyone switched to VT once the chest change happened. Even then you should be running etos or CN ever since the salvage value change.

    I do run etos and CN, ran CN last night and neither of the chests would open for one of our clerics. At least he didn't lose a key on it, he just wasted the run.

    We ran elol a lot before the change as the starter dungeon for people just getting into dungeons - it's quick and we know it like the back of our hands and if everyone dies any one of us can still finish it. So we take new people through there quite often(and have been for the last 3 months).

    Because I am most familiar with the drop rates - it seemed to be the best dungeon to experiment with since the change. I also had a stash of keys piled up.

    The point is, as you clearly made - they made a dungeon worthless to the players.

    Elol has been worthless since the salvage values were changed and the horn was nerfed: \
    I8r4ux9.jpg
  • trinity706#8838 trinity706 Member Posts: 853 Arc User

    Oh look it's Pre Reaper of Souls Diablo 3 "LET'S FARM THE AH INSTEAD OF PLAYING THE GAME" all over again.

    My suggestions include profiting from the trade house as well as doing other things in-game, dungeons included, not a replacement...
    diloul31 said:

    Basically it's like a refund...


    Just because you haven't had the favor of drops as a number of other players have gotten doesn't mean the change is bad overall, eventually you will get your turn.
    diloul31 said:

    Good game for you 500k/daily...

    I know right? Get on the AD wagon :)

    --+-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+ +-~* *~-+--

    For the people concerned about drop rates, screenshot your boss/chest drops for a couple weeks and let's see what they show :)
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    “There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
    "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY

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  • sundance777sundance777 Member Posts: 1,097 Arc User
    I don't run a ton, I have pretty limited play time. I hear stories of people getting great drops and I have seen some of them happen so I can see the drop rates are better and the new loot does drop.

    So far I have not gotten anything of interest, I probably need more runs, but the +1 ring in the left chest of CN and the rank 8 runestone in the right chest is barely worth my 15-20 minutes of time, let alone the keys it takes. For every story of great loot, this normal loot is happening for 4 of the others in party and usually all 5 people. So a normal run costs more in AD that I am getting as a reward, and that is not right. That is called a fee to run the dungeon, not a reward for completing it.

    Epic dungeon key 5000 AD - left chest has: a blue ring 2000 AD salvage value, some seals, a shard of almost no value. I think 6 runs will get you a blue chest for salvage and 10 runs for the purple chest salvage, so another 3000 AD every 6 runs and a whole 6000 AD on the 10th run. This is a loss of diamonds one every run that gives the standard rewards.
    TR - Sun: 16000 IL
    OP - Sunshine: 16000 IL

    Casual Dailies
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    I've ran a fair amount of dungeons. not as many as some... but enough for a fair sampling. I've probably done 30 since the change. I'm not upset with the new loot table and drop rate over all. I've got the shard of orcus to drop and in elol in the left chest I got the blue dragon artifact today (neither bound to me) . i've also got some worthless bound to character companions. and that's great. they're still fun to get. so happy wiht that. I'm enjoying running a variety of dungeons because more stuff can drop and that's neat.. what I'm not liking is how worthless MOST of the loot is. each key costs 15k if you go zen market. most of the time I do think the second chest of CN gives you at least that much back (but you'll never turn a profit and be able to make enough to upgrade your toon that way because most of it is just going back to the house as it were) but most of the special chests give you about 3k back in value. it makes it hard to justify getting the extra keys for the extra chests. that needs to be addressed. a little more salvage from each chest...

    people have to be able to upgrade the toons.. this is gonna make it hard. (not talking for myself.. I'm good there lol) getting special rewards that are worth more occasionally... . they keep people like me in the game. but for people who are still just trying to get a decent toon going it's not enough. they need to be able to MAKE ad to buy things, to donate to their guild ect ect.

    and the value added of the second chest. today I bought five keys and did five edemo runs to see about getting a plus five... I didn't get anywhere near the value out of that. I won't be doing it again. I got one plus three. so 4k instead of 2k.. twisted I don't need.. a couple peridots.. all said total value of the run was about 15k... I paid 77k (not counting the free drops that fall from the sky.. because you get those anyway but if I did add those In double that so 30k and I paid 77k)
  • spidey#3367 spidey Member Posts: 400 Arc User
    urabask said:


    It dropped to 400-450k. Oh no.

    No, it doesnt. You dont need to lie to proof any false facts. Check how "expansive" this arte is.
    I dont want to talk with you. You claiming drops and tell ppl how much worth they are, but the truth is different. You where one of the biggest enemys for this key change BEFORE they made this change and now you are getting richer and now its better? You sir, talking nonsens. Thats all. This change is good for some ppl, but not for the majority.
  • araneaxaraneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    Not to forget :

    1. Not everyone have alts.
    2. Not everyone have VIP
    3. Not everyone have money to spend or a credit card to use

    Why do people forget this i do not know.
    Just cos we have VIP , we think everyone else has it.
    They do not.


    Why would a new player make 2 or 3 alts while just starting this game ?

    He gets his or her little char. , and tries to level it following the story line.

    A person like that is not aware of the fact you need to play AH to "make" money, or get tons of alts, in order to "get" that money .

    A person like that is not aware that without VIP he or she needs to pay up 5 k for a dungeon keys , but if he/she spends Zen on VIP he can get a discount to buy them. 25 % , JUST BUY THAT ZEN , since it pays off. Right ?

    So what then ?
    Getting VIP right ? So he or she can run 3 free dungeons a day.
    And 1 from the free daily key. Oh the joy : 4 dungeons ! Amazing !

    But wait they can only refine 36 k a day per 1 character.
    So it is important to make alts , no alts no money.
    What kind of stupid HAMSTER way of thinking is this...
    You can only refine " this amount " per day. But legendary keys are 250 Zen.

    You want to buy 5 legendary keys ? Make 4 more alts >! Or wait 4 days to get keys.
    If you manage to buy Zen at all in the first place.

    It will get back to 5oo. I have no doubt about that . It will happen.
    And people will again wait months to get some Zen for AD.


    .. I do not understand how people can not see this.

    But it is okay.
    We got over removing Coal wards from trade bars .. since " it was not such a big deal ".
    We got over putting a limit on refining.
    We got over tons of HAMSTER and we ll eventually get over this.
    People will get tired of replying in here.

    d7d81448-df6b-48cf-94a0-cf1ba87d861a_zpsish6zr2v.jpg

  • diloul31diloul31 Member Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    Thank you araneax for seeing the truth as it is !
    Playing a game shouldn't feel like some kind of real life job where you have to consider every component of the game and implant a daily routine in your life.

    I use my 2 alts as mules, never ran anything whith them.
    It helps with festival and events like that but that's all :)

    I ran out of extra keys and campaign currency, i'm not runing them anymore, no way in hell, i'll do that.


    The less you play a long run game, the more complicated it become to progress and soon or later you leave the game plain and simple...

    That's sad there is plenty of ways to make money in a f2p but keys change as it is right now was really a bad decision.

    No matter if a few people get a lot of drops, that don't change anything at all....

    On pc people had time to stack loads of keys maybe but not on ps4...

    Campaign currencies are melting and keys too, and people will not spend hours a day griding campaign currencies to buy keys.

    I keep saying that was the plan from Cryptic from the begining..

    Making the grind so bad that you would buy keys instead of grinding but it will not happen :)

    Check on the web "Perfect World Entertainement revenues"
    You may be surprised by how the incomes kept rising these past years.
    So the key change was absolutely not a matter of survival just a greedy move and a lack respect and considerarion for players.
    Post edited by diloul31 on
  • trinity706#8838 trinity706 Member Posts: 853 Arc User
    Looking at opening chests other than as being a "lottery" with a minimal consolation prize if no high value roll each time is pretty much looking at it as being other than "RNG". Same thing goes with players that defend their argument with the "value" of the keys when they see the odds of that initial cost returning more yet STILL continue to opt into it full fledged.

    "RNG" is in a lot places OUTSIDE of dungeons as well (wanderer's fortune, dragon's hoard, fey blessing, lock boxes, treasure chests, refining, etc.) and works in the favor of us all quite often overall, it may not be in the manner in which a number of players really want (rare dungeon drops) but still proves useful/rewarding. How about this, the player's complaining about the specific portion of "RNG" (dungeon chests) take off ALL enchantments/mount bonuses, etc. that give a chance at a additional drop from defeating mobs then come double refinement only use things that you collected without them and see how much refinement points you have. I can pretty much guarantee no one will do it. not only will it help defend my argument it will pretty much CLEARLY show how "RNG" overall works for us more often than not. I have picked up enough refinement from enchantments/mount bonuses to net well into millions of AD.

    If no one ever got rare drops or the trade house had very few a majority of the time it would be a different story but this is not the case. Just because a player hasn't gotten a rare drop doesn't mean the system is broken, it just doesn't and comparing oneself against the vast number of players that the system has worked in favor of is a problem within itself, not that a player can't feel ill towards the system because it hasn't favored them in the manner in which they want it to.

    It's a F2P game with elements to help speed up ones progress or streamlines it and some of them come at a price which can be paid with money, converted in-game currency and or time.

    @araneax players don't have to utilize both character slots or obtain additional ones to get AD, utilizing more characters raises the amount of AD that can be generated. New players who haven't checked the forums beforehand or asked hot to get AD in-game probably won't know the benefits of utilizing multiple characters, we do though, some opt in others don't, yet complain.

    The daily 36k RAD > AD limit is static though the amount of AD players can obtain via the trade house is virtually limited by how much effort they put into it, this fact cannot be overlooked but players try to sweep it under the rug seemingly because they aren't willing to put in the effort to make it work for them and or they are holding onto some argument that it will destroy.

    VIP can be obtained in-game in about 8-9 days with one character.

    VIP grants multiple benefits, not just Epic dungeon keys but also ease of travel, mailbox, salvage anvil, immunity to injuries, etc., etc...

    @diloul31 Anybody that looked at the PC changes would have seen the changes would eventually come down the line as well, the information out there isn't hidden so PS4 players did have time to prepare. Just like how you found that link you posted other players found out ahead of time what was coming.

    Just like you use multiple characters for events, they can be used for other things too but you choose not to and thus are consciously limiting yourself :)
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    “There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
    "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY

    Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players

    Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
  • mistalowmistalow Member Posts: 58 Arc User
    araneax said:

    Not to forget :

    1. Not everyone have alts.
    2. Not everyone have VIP
    3. Not everyone have money to spend or a credit card to use

    Why do people forget this i do not know.
    Just cos we have VIP , we think everyone else has it.
    They do not.


    Why would a new player make 2 or 3 alts while just starting this game ?

    He gets his or her little char. , and tries to level it following the story line.

    A person like that is not aware of the fact you need to play AH to "make" money, or get tons of alts, in order to "get" that money .

    A person like that is not aware that without VIP he or she needs to pay up 5 k for a dungeon keys , but if he/she spends Zen on VIP he can get a discount to buy them. 25 % , JUST BUY THAT ZEN , since it pays off. Right ?

    So what then ?
    Getting VIP right ? So he or she can run 3 free dungeons a day.
    And 1 from the free daily key. Oh the joy : 4 dungeons ! Amazing !

    But wait they can only refine 36 k a day per 1 character.
    So it is important to make alts , no alts no money.
    What kind of stupid HAMSTER way of thinking is this...
    You can only refine " this amount " per day. But legendary keys are 250 Zen.

    You want to buy 5 legendary keys ? Make 4 more alts >! Or wait 4 days to get keys.
    If you manage to buy Zen at all in the first place.

    It will get back to 5oo. I have no doubt about that . It will happen.
    And people will again wait months to get some Zen for AD.


    .. I do not understand how people can not see this.

    But it is okay.
    We got over removing Coal wards from trade bars .. since " it was not such a big deal ".
    We got over putting a limit on refining.
    We got over tons of HAMSTER and we ll eventually get over this.
    People will get tired of replying in here.

    One character, no alts 36k*14days=1 mounth VIP you dont need pay real money. If you want to talking about new players, before this change it was much more difficult for them. Now they have chance drop stuff for free in skirmishes, sell it or keep it. Tell me why everyone have thousend of VIP keys and dont use them before ? Because before in chests was nothing, litteraly nothing, VIP keys was uselles.
  • diloul31diloul31 Member Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    Please Trinity just stop answering to us, you keep bringing "more effort" on the table.

    We are not willing to do so, so as many of us with no drops shouldnt be considered a bad system in general like you said.
    The same goes for your effort system, it should apply as well, your case can't be the same for all and considered THE solution.
    You are just saying basically to oppose grind to greed as a solution, thats all.
    Post edited by diloul31 on
  • trinity706#8838 trinity706 Member Posts: 853 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    diloul31 said:

    Check on the web "Perfect World Entertainement revenues"
    You may be surprised by how the incomes kept rising these past years.

    I'm pretty sure that you have yet to run a business and if you do it seems like you would close the door when "enough" was made.
    diloul31 said:

    Please Trinity just stop answering to us, you kept bringing "more effort" on the table.

    We are not willing to do so, so much as many of us with no drops shouldnt be considered as bad in general.
    The same goes for your effort system, it should apply to everypoint.

    Just please stop bringing your effort on the table...

    I will continue as long as players choose not to do something in-game about their situation yet complain about it.

    Since you edited your post after I replied to it:

    When players convert AD to Zen they are utilizing Zen other players bought for a whole of other things other than LDK's. You act as if players don't buy Zen mounts, campaign completions, Stronghold items, bags, refinement, packs, items, companions, etc., etc., etc. Again, if players don't buy Zen for whatever reason(s) there won't be any Zen for the F2P's to convert AD into. If LDK's were the ONLY item in the Zen market your argument would hold weight but since they are not, well...

    Everybody does not hold dungeons in as high regard as a number of players do and just like the dungeoneers who oppose the key change are posting in this thread, players who can and have worked around it are as well. This isn't a bash Cryptic only thread, it's open to players with various views, perspectives, thoughts and feelings about the key change and trying to shut them out so the bash party can rage on uninterrupted is not only selfish but also inconsiderate.

    I'm assuming the positive posts about the key change are "damaging" the hope of it changing...
    Post edited by trinity706#8838 on
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    “There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
    "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY

    Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players

    Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
  • diloul31diloul31 Member Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    It just make no sense, you said it yourself people buy bags, mounts...
    I dit it myself, i bought bags, mounts, vip.
    150e in 6 months of real cash...

    So there is a many ways to generate revenue for Cryptic and that bs keys update wasnt a necessity at all...

    You are telling that is normal for me that after that amount spent in the game to either buy keys or grind old campaign....

    I DONT WONT TO AND I DESERVE AS A DECENT CUSTOMER ( and even if i wasnt) TO NOT BEING FORCED TO GRIND OLD CAMPAIGNS TO CRAFT KEYS OR BUYS KEYS.

    EASY SOLUTION : im vip, i have 3 normal key chets everyday, give me 3 legendary for my vip too.

    That way much more people will buy vip = income for Cryptic, keys for us, everyone happy...
    After all they lived without dunjeons keys income for years, no reason to not continue exept greed.



    God you are so stubborn...

    Why is it so hard to understand that ???!!
    Post edited by diloul31 on
  • araneaxaraneax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 639 Arc User
    mistalow said:

    araneax said:

    Not to forget :

    1. Not everyone have alts.
    2. Not everyone have VIP
    3. Not everyone have money to spend or a credit card to use

    Why do people forget this i do not know.
    Just cos we have VIP , we think everyone else has it.
    They do not.


    Why would a new player make 2 or 3 alts while just starting this game ?

    He gets his or her little char. , and tries to level it following the story line.

    A person like that is not aware of the fact you need to play AH to "make" money, or get tons of alts, in order to "get" that money .

    A person like that is not aware that without VIP he or she needs to pay up 5 k for a dungeon keys , but if he/she spends Zen on VIP he can get a discount to buy them. 25 % , JUST BUY THAT ZEN , since it pays off. Right ?

    So what then ?
    Getting VIP right ? So he or she can run 3 free dungeons a day.
    And 1 from the free daily key. Oh the joy : 4 dungeons ! Amazing !

    But wait they can only refine 36 k a day per 1 character.
    So it is important to make alts , no alts no money.
    What kind of stupid HAMSTER way of thinking is this...
    You can only refine " this amount " per day. But legendary keys are 250 Zen.

    You want to buy 5 legendary keys ? Make 4 more alts >! Or wait 4 days to get keys.
    If you manage to buy Zen at all in the first place.

    It will get back to 5oo. I have no doubt about that . It will happen.
    And people will again wait months to get some Zen for AD.


    .. I do not understand how people can not see this.

    But it is okay.
    We got over removing Coal wards from trade bars .. since " it was not such a big deal ".
    We got over putting a limit on refining.
    We got over tons of HAMSTER and we ll eventually get over this.
    People will get tired of replying in here.

    One character, no alts 36k*14days=1 mounth VIP you dont need pay real money. If you want to talking about new players, before this change it was much more difficult for them. Now they have chance drop stuff for free in skirmishes, sell it or keep it. Tell me why everyone have thousend of VIP keys and dont use them before ? Because before in chests was nothing, litteraly nothing, VIP keys was uselles.
    Right now you can still buy it with exchanging AD.
    If that continues , fine No problem. We will all be happy campers.
    But it will not.
    Remember the time when it crashed and no one could get any Zen out of it , for their AD?
    I do. How long did it last ? Do you remember ?
    I am actually expecting it to happen.


    I have VIP since it got out.
    Got it cos i truly hated one thing. Traps in ECC. Back when ECC was a " hard " dungeon. lol
    So when i saw what exactly , VIP will get me I went for it.
    Enchanted keys are a bonus, that never , from BETA, gave me anything legendary.
    And i am fine with it.
    I just do not have luck. I accepted that , cos we can not all be happy RNG goers. If i want to play NW i have to accept the casino effect of the Lockboxes.


    However, epic dungeon keys are something different.
    Not one person in my guild is not running dungeons .
    If they have alts they now run little dungeons on alts, and few on main. Keys get spent.
    Why ? Cos we have no other option then to open the chest to get our the loot.
    I am not okay with it.
    Will probably never be.
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  • ravenskyaravenskya Member Posts: 1,891 Arc User
    urabask said:


    Elol has been worthless since the salvage values were changed and the horn was nerfed: \

    So last night we ran eToS twice, eCC, and eGWD.

    Each chest (total of 4) Gave me the two seals and a single piece of salvage gear. No boss drops from any of the bosses. I discussed with the 4 people who were with me through these dungeons and only one got a boss drop of salvage - everyone ended up with the same thing. It's hard to get that crew into those dungeons since there is only a single chest to open and they feel like it's not worth it. But now that we are running out of secondary keys - every dungeon will be a single chest dungeon...
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  • trinity706#8838 trinity706 Member Posts: 853 Arc User
    @diloul31 Here's what you do, since you don't know the reason(s) Cryptic made the key change and are negatively speculating (which is your right to do so regardless of how it may seem and whilst the results have already been posted in a number of places: lower prices on artifacts that people want, increased drop rates, increased items in loot tables, etc., etc.) put your "Cryptic only wants money" on a shelf somewhere and look at things differently as a number of posters here have (I would state put that theory somewhere in the trash but hey). Since you probably won't do that I will again give you a very simple course of action to take...

    DO NOT BUY KEYS WITH MONEY

    Want keys, convert AD to Zen, but then again the essential part of that formula is missing is, here's that "e" word again, effort, you know the effort that you don't want to put in?

    No effort > No AD > No Zen conversion > No keys

    If players want to limit themselves to an epic key or epic key and crafted key(s) per session that's fine as well, but when they complain, guess what?

    Players aren't forced to do previous campaigns to craft keys, it's just another option they have. If the majority of players would stop opting out of all or at least some of the available options they have to get around spending money (not even just for keys) then the key change I'm willing to bet wouldn't have had such a big commotion about it.

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    Btw, got a unbound Lantern of Revelation the other day off a Boss and over 500k in trade house sales yesterday...

    If players would step out of the dark, dank dungeons then maybe they would see the light of Neverwinter (pun intended).
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  • mistalowmistalow Member Posts: 58 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    araneax:

    Yes with no exchange it will be problem, but right now you can save some zen and use it later. Honestly even without zen exchange, 9.99 e per mounth for game you enjoy isnt too much. About dungeons.. I have no problem get party in guild or channels, but yea I get what are you trying to say, without keys is no point to run dungeons. Did you run ecc,etos all day before ? I doubt it. Maybe a few times for salvage but you dont grind it, there was no point to do it. So I take this little chance for something then nothing. Dude If you are really play this game from beta you know you cant have big expectations, just play it till you get bored. Its never gonna be better q:D
  • urabaskurabask Member Posts: 2,923 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    ravenskya said:

    urabask said:


    Elol has been worthless since the salvage values were changed and the horn was nerfed: \

    So last night we ran eToS twice, eCC, and eGWD.

    Each chest (total of 4) Gave me the two seals and a single piece of salvage gear. No boss drops from any of the bosses. I discussed with the 4 people who were with me through these dungeons and only one got a boss drop of salvage - everyone ended up with the same thing. It's hard to get that crew into those dungeons since there is only a single chest to open and they feel like it's not worth it. But now that we are running out of secondary keys - every dungeon will be a single chest dungeon...
    : \

    Even before the key change we all just held onto our campaign keys checking chests for a horn/shard that never dropped. If that one piece of salvage is really making it a game breaker you just need to explain that campaign chest was never returning much value on the time invested in it before the chest either.
    araneax said:



    However, epic dungeon keys are something different.
    Not one person in my guild is not running dungeons .
    If they have alts they now run little dungeons on alts, and few on main. Keys get spent.
    Why ? Cos we have no other option then to open the chest to get our the loot.
    I am not okay with it.
    Will probably never be.

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  • diloul31diloul31 Member Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    I'll just answer to that put your "effort" somewhere... On a shelf ( or trash... )


    I already told you :smile:
    - i do sharandar/ outerdark everyday
    - i do skirmishs everyday
    - it takes time to manage inventory, sales, scraping ect...
    I farmed particules, i farmed ichor and i farm dunjeons...

    And now i have to farm old campaign to create keys to be able to do dunjeons... Or enter the multiple characters grind ?


    I keep telling you that i got nothing from the keys i used...
    You get 500k everyday of drops good for you, boss always give me peridots or salvage <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>....

    Did it cross your mind that if was lucky as you are i wouldnt be here complaining ? When something is too much in favor or players, it's nerfed so i would have no interest to shout on the roofs " i earn 500k everyday of drops"

    But you are too stuborned to understand that...


    I must not take my rng screwed for general and be happy for myself..

    But i should take you great drops or grind system as THE thing to do...


    Stop talking to us like we are kiddies, i'm 33 years old, two kids, 10 years working for a bank and selling stuff and actually working for one of the biggest planes provider in the world, buying parts at the best quality/prices all over the world.

    So spare me your daddy lessons about how to run a bizness...

    I never said they should stop taking income, i said they need to stop being greedy and always more greedy

    Selling pixels and video games is a very different bizness than selling vegetables or cars...

    When there is passion there is income...

    That's why games like GTA or Kojima or naughty games, it provides gigantic loads off money.
    You followed what happened at Konami ?
    Hideo need 4 or 5 years and 200 people to make a great game.
    Konami wanted 100 people max and 2 or 3 years max...

    He basically said :" Screw you" and things went south...

    So dont act like there is no greed in video games bizness or like Cryptic are saints...

    Do you think guys behind Mass effect were fired years ago after last release and have been hired again for the next release ?

    F2p are different, they dont instant cash but during years they earn same or more and the poor support does not justify always more income and greed.

    When there is passion, there is natural incomes.


    When all there is grind and fishing to mask the lack of content, there is no passion just greed...

    i think it's reasonable to imagine there is millions of people playing the game on pc/xbox/ps4 if only one million have paid a month of vip with real cash then it's 10 millions income ...
    Ofc, i'm not stupid, there is staff to pay, costs, blah blah blah but you see the idea...
    And i'm not even talking about boosters and startings packs, mounts, bags, ect...
    Trust me f2p is a very lucrative bizness otherwise it would have already disapeared...
    ( You didnt read the exellent article about laws around the world againstnew rng lockboxes.
    Yet it's not madness or haters and well argumented.
    No you quote only what suits you to prove me wrong...)


    Time will prove me right...


    But again, when will you say something about dunjeons removed and not being fixed since years, key update without the price drop that was suposed to happen WITH the update ?
    Must be a bug...


    Peace.
    Post edited by diloul31 on
  • ravenskyaravenskya Member Posts: 1,891 Arc User
    urabask said:


    : \

    Even before the key change we all just held onto our campaign keys checking chests for a horn/shard that never dropped. If that one piece of salvage is really making it a game breaker you just need to explain that campaign chest was never returning much value on the time invested in it before the chest either.

    You are correct - however from the perspective of my friends

    5 of us went through 4 dungeons - that's 3 bosses per dungeon and 1 chest at the end.

    That's 60 opportunities for a boss drop - we saw 1 and it was salvage
    That's 20 chests opened and ALL of them were seals, and one bit of salvage (worth 5500AD)

    Until FBI these were the hardest dungeons available and they don't even drop an artifact... my crew liked hunting for the artifacts, which is why even though we have been able to do the epics, they stick to VT, eLoL and Malabogs which we at least know someone who has gotten something useful out of. We run CN now and then but we seem to regularly have an issue where someone can't open the chests, so it's disheartening there.

    Today they ran eLoL about 6 times (i'm at work so they are FB messaging me) one guy got the horn twice both times dropped from Lostmauth - no key, from the keys one of my other friends got the belt.

    Here is the thing - the loot drops are now what they should have been all along - while still being able to look into the chest without your key getting eaten. They just hosed us over for so long on the drops that most people are looking at this as a boon, when in reality its just and adjustment to where it should have been from the beginning.

    So I run the epics and get 5500 worth of salvage per dungeon, I can refine 36K of it each day (not including the AD I get from the first two dungeon runs). If you are buying the keys from the dwarf at 5K AD each, you are only making the AD from the first two dungeons - which you could easily have gotten much more quickly from just plowing through cloak tower and not worrying about the chest at all since you know 100% that it's junk.

    Keys still take entirely too long to make and any that take more than a single day of daily quests in the area are ridiculously over priced.

    I guess what I'm saying is that I just don't understand how they think the epics are worth it other than just the challenge of running them.
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  • trinity706#8838 trinity706 Member Posts: 853 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    @diloul31 I understand that YOU have not gotten a "good" drop but other people are yet you feel that the system is bad because of your personal experience with it when it is apparently working overall.

    If you and others feel Cryptic is being "greedy" don't buy Zen, then you will not be granting them revenue they are trying to bring in to continue providing the F2P game you all play, pretty much for free.

    You don't have to do ANY of the things I suggested though more than likely you will continue to get the same results until you get a good drop and in the time between you can make much more AD than the drop is worth. Fishing is currently pretty much the most profitable thing to do in Neverwinter in regard to time spent/AD gain. If players choose to stick with dungeons and not partake that is their choice.

    From your statement you have worked for someone else, not ran your own business...

    What if your employer(s) came in one day and told everyone "We have made enough revenue for the year", see you all next year, or we haven't made enough so no one will be getting their bonuses, or we are understaffed so you can't take vacation? My point here is whatever Cryptic is doing with the revenue they bring in and or the reasons they do things the way they do it's really not our business, we are here to play the game, not tell them how to run their business. If we as the players don't like what's going on we can opt out and not play their game. As I stated before if there is that much resentment in regard to the key change don't play the game, when the number of players and revenue starts to drop I guarantee Cryptic will pay attention, until then they are more in a position to keep things the way they are...

    I'm pretty sure there is greed in some video games companies (just like other types of companies) and when things get too bad for the players more and more of them leave and the company is faced with either letting their game go or making some changes. Even if Cryptic is being greedy (how could it be proven anyway? LOL), I know how to get around spending my own money if I don't want to. Cryptic at this moment is seemingly not in that position to make such changes since millions of people still play, have passion for the game and buy Zen and some players that spend money here and there.

    I have read the article about lock boxes and a number of others as well and it still comes down to choice, players are choosing to spend money on a chance at virtual gains. I like dungeons though I also enjoy a lot of the content outside of the coveted dungeons. "RNG" works in my favor plenty and even more so since I don't solely/primarily rely on it for my progression in the game.
    ravenskya said:

    Keys still take entirely too long to make and any that take more than a single day of daily quests in the area are ridiculously over priced.

    @ravenskya What areas/zones do you feel take an "excessive" amount of time to complete daily quests to craft a key?
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  • diloul31diloul31 Member Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited January 2017
    Thanks Trinity.
    Even if i disagree i like what you just wrote.

    It's an opinion without the try to explain others, " i hold the truth and you are doing it all wrong :)

    Again i'm not saying tha they should stop trying to make more money, just not the way it's done atctually...
    And even without runing a company, i know the better service and low prices you offer, the more customers you drag.


    They created the service to finish campaigns for exemple without doing them for 4500.
    I dont like that but if people want do it i cant see why i would argue about that !
    It's concrete you paid for a service to save time, ok !
    Same goes for vip, mounts, pets, packs ect... You pay, you get something.
    Even if you spend 1000e in these because you can afford it i respect that, no problem...
    Make money by all means if it's fair...

    There is zen, da, rad, gold, legion of currencies, make another than cant be obtained by playing the game i dont know...
    You could buy things for small fee so its pure money in the pockets of pwe instead of playing the game of those who manipulate ah ;)

    See i'm open to everything just not giving me the choice to waste my time or waste my little earning in rng instead of what will help grow my toon.

    What i'm trying to say from the beginning is i hate the key update because like i said.

    I already spend my time doing my farm, the one i feel ok to do otherwise i dont play mmo.
    I already have plans for what i stacked.

    I was ok to farm dunjeons even with a slight chance equal to zero in the end i did not lost anything, no time to make currencies for keys and wait 24h and no ad/zen...

    Now it's a complete different story, i do less dunjeons, the ones i do keep giving NOTHING ( today too).
    i lost all my keys and i can't craft anymore because i dont have time to rerun campaigns and the little ad i earn i habe better plans for it than wasting it keys that give me nothing but frustration...
    Post edited by diloul31 on
  • sundance777sundance777 Member Posts: 1,097 Arc User
    20 chests no gains, all losses on the cost of the key, I have the same experience and same sentiment, with other groups. So it is not just ravenskya, there are 26 pages of posts here and several other threads about the same thing. New loot nice; take key bad.
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  • ravenskyaravenskya Member Posts: 1,891 Arc User


    @ravenskya What areas/zones do you feel take an "excessive" amount of time to complete daily quests to craft a key?

    I have roughly 3-4 hours per night to play after work. If I want to run 3 dungeons and have the opportunity at opening ALL of the chests.

    First I have to run 3 different dungeons (you can only make 1 key type at a time).

    So lets say I'm planning on an eLoL, VT and Malabogs. First I have to run ALL of the Sharandar Daily quests that give crescents and sparks (I'm not at home on the game so some of this is from memory), then I have to run all of Dread Ring - including the heroics to get enough vanguard scripts. Then I'm off to run both the well of dragons daily quests AND the harper quests to get enough cult secrets.

    In addition along the way I have to come up with a total of 11 gold. Which means I've had to pick up and sell everything I've found everywhere.

    Now I can hit the button to start cooking my keys - so in 20 hours I can do my 3 dungeons.

    Assuming I have a bit of pre-planning in me I can use the keys I made yesterday. But to run 3 dungeons and open all of the chests - I have to spend at least an hour or more (on my healadin soloing its about 2-3 hours to complete those daily quests) of my limited time - gathering bits and bobs to make keys that then take me 20 hours to concoct.

    But the big wall is actually the gold. At 3-5 gold per key, with limited inventory space and "priceless" items selling for copper... I hope you see what I'm getting at.

    The answers to the responses I am expecting:

    Yes I could make more gold - but then we are back to the average player has limited time to play, and as much as I dislike fishing, I also don't want to spend my time wandering around places that drop garbage to sell hoping to get at least 11 gold per day - this is dungeons and dragons - not fishing and antiques road show.

    But Raven - this is where you can spend your $$ to buy the keys - yes but as I said before, I haven't seen anything come out of those chests that is worth real $$ to me.

    Also keep in mind - I'm the person who has lost 4 keys so far to the chests that glitched and didn't give ANYTHING.
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