Update on the Dungeon Key Change

strumslinger

Hey All!

The Developers took your feedback into consideration and have released a Developer Blog to detail all of the changes to the originally announced Key Changes.
Please read through it and use this thread to provide us with any feedback you have!

The following message is here for archive purposes.
The Developer Blog is the most up to date source of information regarding the Dungeon Key Change as of Jan 30, 2017:

As you may have heard, we recently announced, and put up on Preview, a new system for dungeon keys wherein viewing rewards would no longer be an option without using the key. Then you spoke to us: loudly, clearly and - amazingly so and in many ways - that this breaks something in the game that you have relied upon. A fail safe for checking to see if you are going to use your keys on loot - at least loot that is a return on investment on the key and time in the dungeon. Our forward looking goal has always been to be able to create better rewards tables in those (and other) chests, but we needed to secure the dungeon chest system first. We totally put the cart before the horse here. We’re all sorry for the heartache such a half move has caused.

What good is first change without the second part?! I think you all were pretty clear on that, and you are right! When I’m reading on the forums that Aulduron opened 1,000 chests and used only a dozen keys on rewards he liked, this made me get my team really looking into the bigger issue here. The Rewards. Not just the rewards but the percentage chances of getting them.

We hear you. I hear you. We are going to fix this.

So, here’s what we are going to do. We are pulling back the dungeon key change for our upcoming update, Sea of Moving Ice, and scheduling time to evaluate and rebuild the rewards for the dungeon chests. This change will still happen, but when it does it will be with better rewards and a much better chance of actually getting the chase loot. Once the change is in, the plan is to schedule updates to these rewards each major expansion so that there is reason to revisit the dungeons.

With that in mind, we would love to hear from you. What do you want to see in your Dungeon chests? I’m serious about this. Your feedback is important. Reply in this post!

Regards,
Thomas “Mimic King” Foss

kreatyve

Thank you! Can't think of anything else to say. Thank you.

lirithiel

There is hope yet!

What i would really like to see more than anything else in a dungeon chest as a possible reward are Coal Wards. Having them available only through invoking coffers (at a minuscule drop rate) in-game is sad and the price being asked on the zen store is outrageous.

zebular

Many thanks. Reward Loot has been a long-standing issue. I am sorry that it took such an ordeal to realize this but I am very excited for the future now that it has been addressed and there are plans to remedy it. Mystryl guide.

narasjg

im impressed that feedback got in , if the keys are bound to change in future , i would suggest to have a limit of viewing the prizes , each key can view 5 times and then would be used on 5th time but would have to show on the chest about the key remaining View.

kvet

Nice. As it should be. Not much to say here - both the key and loot updates need to happen at once. It's unfortunate that it took such a massive amount of yelling to get that through - but I'm glad it did.

hanniballa

Okay, this was a great response and a reasonable fix. Thank you for listening to us, and for your hard work here.

sockmunkey

I think this is fantastic, and goes a long way to restoring some good will.

Its good to see that despite all the anger, rage, and static. The core issues have been acknowledge and will be addressed.

izthas

Thank you very much.

hawkeyel

Thank you.

audioboxer

lirithiel said:

There is hope yet!

What i would really like to see more than anything else in a dungeon chest as a possible reward are Coal Wards. Having them available only through invoking coffers (at a minuscule drop rate) in-game is sad and the price being asked on the zen store is outrageous.

I doubt you'll see that. A better compromise to ask for would be a handful of preservation wards. To be fair when I have a 1% chance I usually risk the spend on 100 wards vs 1 coalescent. It occasionally pays off in that it works within 100 and leaves you some wards spare. Even 5 wards or something as a decent chance in the loot table. They can even be BoP so it's for the players benefit only.

As for this topic, worrying that the devs jumped so quick to make the change knowing fine well the drop rates for rewards are terrible. Sure increasing the drop rates might lower the AH prices but lets be honest not many people were buying the amount of Zen needed to convert to AD to buy the Orcus shard (or any of the other crazy priced artifacts with stupidly low drop rates). Prices for artifacts on the AH can be a bit ridiculous. Let us not forget most of the most sought after drop as green so need refinement and wards spent on them too.

In a F2P MMO we can all accept the devs need an income and it gets harder to convince players to keep spending once they are level 70 and have epic mounts, but if you push too hard you end up losing players and that hurts too. For extra income I'd consider reworking VIP before making such dire QOL changes to the main game which hurt everyone, even people who do spend decent money.

Heck I've said it before but make VIP only purchasable through buying zen and not converting AD to zen. Or a flat monthly fee. Other MMOs do this for their VIP approach and while it's generous NW allows you to grind AD to earn VIP I think most of the community would accept a change like this before the current key proposal which makes people already tired of the dungeon grind/ring grind even more angry as 300 runs of a dungeon with 2 keys spent would now need to be 300 keys spent.

Before anyone hamsters at that idea as well, if it was made, VIP could throw in some other benefits considering it is making 100% profit based income, and not conversion from AD to Zen. I'm happy for the devs, publishers and shareholders to want to make money, and increase profits, so let's not be dense and live in a world where NW is just free and players can eat as much cake as they want.

ironzerg79

First, thank you for pulling back on the change BEFORE fixing the loot, and not after.



Second, since you asked for it and I cannot resist giving opinions, here's mine:

Stop being so crazy stingy with gear upgrades in chests, like the Legendary Rings. If you're going to dangle gear upgrades in front of players, make them obtainable. We know the drop rates on Legendary stuff is anywhere from 1:2000 to 1:5000. That's unbelievably painful for players when it comes to gear being obtainable. And my biggest fear for 10b is that the Legendary marks will be so soul-crushingly rare for players, that those Legendary ranks might as well not even exist.

So make the gear obtainable by committed players. If you anticipate a level of content is going to be the top for the next 90-120 days, then make the drop rates reward players who commit to that content for 90-120 days.

On the flip side, I'm fine with the super low drop rate items, but make these "extras". Rare mounts, companions, cosmetics, etc...stuff that people WANT but don't view as NEEDS.

For example, what if a 1:5000 reward for the new 10b content was a BoE mount that was basically a Frost Giant that your rode around on his back? That would be cool as heck, but viewed as an optional reward that added to your prestige as a player, but not add to your overall power. Or rare frost giant cosmetic skins for weapons or armor? Stuff that helps you stand out from the other players, but isn't viewed as a "must have" for a "best in slot" character. Like Drufi's greatsword would be a killer skin for a GWF (no pun intended), and would probably sell well as a rare BoE cosmetic drop, but people aren't going to get frustrated if they never see a cosmetic drop (for the most part).

And you could do this across all the content. Themed mounts, companions and cosmetics for all the dungeons. Cool Drow themed spider mounts or companions, and outfits for Temple of the Spider. Sweet pirate stuff from Cragmire Crypts. Wolf-themed drops form Grey Wolf...stuff like that. Make them all BoE and sellable on the AH. For two reasons. One, you'll give people rare "cash" drops they can sell. Two, you'll naturally create incentives for people to run different dungeons. If everyone is running Lostmauth or Temple because it's fast, you'll see a lot of those themed drops on the AH, meaning they'll be worth less. But the drops from GWD might be more expensive because they're more rare...so there's incentives for people to try to farm those.

So when you think about how do you make chest loot exciting, think about what a player views as a NEED and what could be a great WANT, and mix these in so that a player always feels like completing a challenge and getting the loot is worth their time.

uzala

Thanks guys, a much more reasonable approach!

balufunke

Thank you! This post made me come back and stay for while. At least I have some hope.

gorillalike

Thank you

arabatur

Rewards throughout the game are seriously underwhelming and have failed to keep pace with the increase in both level and equipment. Profession nodes are now almost worthless, Celestial Synergy and Ardent Favour havn't significantly changed since Beta and Overflow rewards just stink - Rank 5 enchants

There are probably more, but these spring to mind from my experiences. Make rewards actually rewarding, not insulting.

diogene0

Meh. By not simply rolling back the changes and cancelling them, you're creating a lot of uncertainty and still move the game towards the freemium model in which loot is paid for. I was on my way out and sadly you didn't dispel the uncertainty these changes bring, you're merely delaying them.

What do I want to see in dungeon chests? I simply want the old dungeon delve events back, it's as simple as that.

dreadvenemous

If you improve the rewards so that they are WORTH using the key, you will succeed.

If you do not improve the rewards to that they are WORTH using the key, you will fail.

Please make the choice that will benefit both you and the players.

beadin

Thank you for listening.

swirve

I feel sadly the damage has been done and the rewards review can only serve to lessen further damage not heal damage inflicted.

I hope from this you maintain a bug log which is public and not in a few ppls heads, which is terrible from a governance pov and also actively accept lessons learned.

A fundamental problem is the perceived direction and feel of this game which is gambling orientated. I feel at times this is just a gambling game with gameplay tacked on. Ppl have no issue with revenue generation but your revenue and reward models are frankly dire.

hanniballa

What do I want to see in the reward chest? How about some Rank 8 enchants, coal wards, bags(we need more ways to get bags, they don't got to be runic bags, but more bags for our alts please). World of Warcraft has bags that can drop from bosses and they're usually great, the chances aren't amazing to get them, but there have been chances to get bis bags from dungeons/raids. Profession assets would be nice, and also, more loot for salvaging.

kolatmaster

Superb response guys! Many thanks!

urabask

narasjg said:

im impressed that feedback got in , if the keys are bound to change in future , i would suggest to have a limit of viewing the prizes , each key can view 5 times and then would be used on 5th time but would have to show on the chest about the key remaining View.

Strum put it best but there's an underlying problem with how terrible the rewards are. Letting us decline the chest is just a band-aid. If they're taking the opportunity to try to rework rewards it should be with the intent of getting us to the point where we don't mind being forced to take every chest.

thefabricant

I must be dreaming... You actually...Responded...To feedback?

Well, here is my loot feedback then:

Feedback: Loot

When you finish a dungeon, you need to feel as if the time you invested was rewarded in some way. With the current system, the problem is, the AD you earn can pretty much be calculated as AD per dungeon run/time to finish dungeon. Pre mod 6, this was slightly different, as you would have to run different pieces of content to get different pieces of gear. If you wanted the best helmet for your class for example, you had to run spellplague, where as if you wanted the boots, you had to run FH. As it currently stands, all the best gear comes from a single piece of content and unlike in the past, that gear is bound. Outside of the gear, the loot from the dungeon is essentially the same as any other piece of content and you may as well run eToS. There is no relation between difficulty of content and reward.

What this means is that once you have your gear, there is no reason to run FBI. However, there is a further problem with FBI. The gear only drops in the second chest, which you need to use either a legendary dragon key for, or open once per day. This is essentially gating the only stuff that you want to get, behind a chest that you can only open once per day. The thing is, a dungeon should be rewarding regardless of whether you have a special key or not, the key should not be the only reason to run it. It is time that bosses dropped loot again and the loot needs to be good.

Currently, we have a completely useless need/greed/pass system. With the original loot system in the game, this made sense, but as it stands now, it is not utilized at all. I suggest adding loot that is actually worth need/greed/passing on, so the system serves some purpose.

Now, with regards to chests. When a player opens a chest, the contents of the chest must always be worth more than it costs to open the chest. This means that if you are opening a normal chest, the contents must always be worth more than 5k AD and if you are opening a chest with a legendary dragon key, the contents must always be worth more than 25k AD. When designing loot going forward, you should keep this in mind. Ideally, the value of the loot should be twice the cost of opening the chest, this way it actually feels rewarding.

What I would suggest is that the loot in the normal chest is always an epic chest piece or better, whilst there is a guaranteed rank 8 enchantment in the legendary dragon key chest. The normal chest could then have a chance of rank 8's in content like edemo or CN and the contents of the chest in fbi could have a chance at a rank 9.

These are just my initial thoughts though, I would have to mull over it for a few weeks to come up with a fully fledged idea.

audioboxer

ironzerg79 said:

First, thank you for pulling back on the change BEFORE fixing the loot, and not after.



Second, since you asked for it and I cannot resist giving opinions, here's mine:

Stop being so crazy stingy with gear upgrades in chests, like the Legendary Rings. If you're going to dangle gear upgrades in front of players, make them obtainable. We know the drop rates on Legendary stuff is anywhere from 1:2000 to 1:5000. That's unbelievably painful for players when it comes to gear being obtainable. And my biggest fear for 10b is that the Legendary marks will be so soul-crushingly rare for players, that those Legendary ranks might as well not even exist.

So make the gear obtainable by committed players. If you anticipate a level of content is going to be the top for the next 90-120 days, then make the drop rates reward players who commit to that content for 90-120 days.

On the flip side, I'm fine with the super low drop rate items, but make these "extras". Rare mounts, companions, cosmetics, etc...stuff that people WANT but don't view as NEEDS.

For example, what if a 1:5000 reward for the new 10b content was a BoE mount that was basically a Frost Giant that your rode around on his back? That would be cool as heck, but viewed as an optional reward that added to your prestige as a player, but not add to your overall power. Or rare frost giant cosmetic skins for weapons or armor? Stuff that helps you stand out from the other players, but isn't viewed as a "must have" for a "best in slot" character. Like Drufi's greatsword would be a killer skin for a GWF (no pun intended), and would probably sell well as a rare BoE cosmetic drop, but people aren't going to get frustrated if they never see a cosmetic drop (for the most part).

And you could do this across all the content. Themed mounts, companions and cosmetics for all the dungeons. Cool Drow themed spider mounts or companions, and outfits for Temple of the Spider. Sweet pirate stuff from Cragmire Crypts. Wolf-themed drops form Grey Wolf...stuff like that. Make them all BoE and sellable on the AH. For two reasons. One, you'll give people rare "cash" drops they can sell. Two, you'll naturally create incentives for people to run different dungeons. If everyone is running Lostmauth or Temple because it's fast, you'll see a lot of those themed drops on the AH, meaning they'll be worth less. But the drops from GWD might be more expensive because they're more rare...so there's incentives for people to try to farm those.

So when you think about how do you make chest loot exciting, think about what a player views as a NEED and what could be a great WANT, and mix these in so that a player always feels like completing a challenge and getting the loot is worth their time.

Heck the rings at +3~+5 are bind on account pickup as well, so it's not as if the devs have to worry about ring farming blowing out the AH. If we're going to go with two chests why not this idea

Chest 1 which uses the dungeon key, drops BoP artifacts. Chest 2 which uses made keys/bought keys, drops BoE artifacts. That way the devs can have some give and go to protect the AH from being filled with end-game content at fairly low prices. As let us be honest, with how TERRIBLE the artifact drop rates are I'd say most people farming right now are doing it for their character, not to try and make AD in the AH.

However the counter-argument to the above is devs then saying people will just ignore chest 2... Which I guess, but right now people ignore it anyway. It's just we have the peak functionality to let us do that.

Either way the devs should already know there are various options to improve QOL for players, a fair few which revolve around BoP which also helps them protect their bottom line. People with lots to spend will still buy Zen to convert to AD to buy on AH versus farming.

swirve

The problem is most suggestions from the community are tinkering with a broken loot system..

This game needs a fundamental would you have built this or what would you have built loot system approach....reboot the loot...

Though some ppl are easily pleased if a r5 is changed to an r7...

kevinwinter

Thank you Thomas and Strum.

My wish list:

• Coalescent wards
  
• Bag of campaign currency, similar to the Genie's Gift
  
• AD that isn't counted against your daily dungeon allotment
  
• Refinement packs, similar to those you find in lockboxes
  
• Remove +1, and +2 rings
  
• Bring back dungeon specific gear (like found in the original dungeons); add secondary stats to the gear, so instead of Power, Crit, and Armor Pen, you could have Power, Movement, and Stamina Gain (or others of course); this would allow for more customization and stat allocation which could lead to new builds
  

Again, thank you!

mightyeriksson

If the loot is decent, nobody (well, maybe some players?) would complain about keys being used up on interaction.

Best way on how to implement this change is better loot first, and key change after evaluation by both players and number-crunchers...

whyrat

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