Bottom line it didn't cost you a thing to generate it, so yes it's free whether you want to say you earned it or not.
My objection isn't to the change its the unreasonable short notice. Earning those reroll tokens wasn't free it took hours and hours of work. Now due to short notice many people are going to lose out on 50 ish tokens they spent a long time over many months of playing daily to earn. I have not done the math but it feels like it takes something like 30days to earn those 50 tokens. It was only by shear fluke I spotted the message at 11.30pm last night otherwise I would have lost 50 tokens myself. There should have been more notice to give people chance to open the box's for the tokens they earned. A lot of us where only opening them as we needed them.
They said something about no one will lose the ones they already have, they just took the tokens out of the loot tables so no more can be gotten as rewards and will have to buy any new ones.
Which is the problem they did this with such short notice that many people who have spent months earning those tokens have now lost those 50 tokens and have to spend 125k Dilithium to get the tokens back they had already spent many hours earning. I can live with the change but not the fact they have removed tokens we have already spent hours earning without a reasonable timeframe to do anything about it. They should have given 1 weeks notice at a minimum or only change the loot table for new box's leaving old box.
Plus they are charging players Dilithium for tokens then not giving any tokens if you are at the cap but still taking the Dilithium without any warning there is a cap.
Short notice of what? I just logged in with the character I was using yesterday a few minutes ago. I had 23 admiralty skips and 41 endeavor rerolls before the patch. Now I still have the 23 admiralty and 41 endeavor tokens. The ONLY thing that has changed is that there is now a "buy" button on those pages to acquire new ones (which I will not be pressing at all btw).
They are doing exactly what they said, you keep all of the token you already have, and apparently to add any more to that total you have to buy them now instead of getting them as random rewards.
The problem is not "short notice", it is the devs silly thinking that if they stopped giving out more free skip/reroll tokens that people would actually buy them instead when they eventually ran out of the ones they have built up.
Bottom line it didn't cost you a thing to generate it, so yes it's free whether you want to say you earned it or not.
My objection isn't to the change its the unreasonable short notice. Earning those reroll tokens wasn't free it took hours and hours of work. Now due to short notice many people are going to lose out on 50 ish tokens they spent a long time over many months of playing daily to earn. I have not done the math but it feels like it takes something like 30days to earn those 50 tokens. It was only by shear fluke I spotted the message at 11.30pm last night otherwise I would have lost 50 tokens myself. There should have been more notice to give people chance to open the box's for the tokens they earned. A lot of us where only opening them as we needed them.
They said something about no one will lose the ones they already have, they just took the tokens out of the loot tables so no more can be gotten as rewards and will have to buy any new ones.
Which is the problem they did this with such short notice that many people who have spent months earning those tokens have now lost those 50 tokens and have to spend 125k Dilithium to get the tokens back they had already spent many hours earning. I can live with the change but not the fact they have removed tokens we have already spent hours earning without a reasonable timeframe to do anything about it. They should have given 1 weeks notice at a minimum or only change the loot table for new box's leaving old box.
Plus they are charging players Dilithium for tokens then not giving any tokens if you are at the cap but still taking the Dilithium without any warning there is a cap.
Short notice of what? I just logged in with the character I was using yesterday a few minutes ago. I had 23 admiralty skips and 41 endeavor rerolls before the patch. Now I still have the 23 admiralty and 41 endeavor tokens. The ONLY thing that has changed is that there is now a "buy" button on those pages to acquire new ones (which I will not be pressing at all btw).
They are doing exactly what they said, you keep all of the token you already have, and apparently to add any more to that total you have to buy them now instead of getting them as random rewards.
The problem is not "short notice", it is the devs silly thinking that if they stopped giving out more free skip/reroll tokens that people would actually buy them instead.
Short notice to open the box's we have. Many players would only open the box's as they needed tokens so would never have more then 1 or 2 reroll tokens at a time. But they had earnt and had over 50+ tokens in box's which they have now lost due to the short notice of the change. There are players that could have had 50 tokens but now have 2 tokens.
Bottom line it didn't cost you a thing to generate it, so yes it's free whether you want to say you earned it or not.
My objection isn't to the change its the unreasonable short notice. Earning those reroll tokens wasn't free it took hours and hours of work. Now due to short notice many people are going to lose out on 50 ish tokens they spent a long time over many months of playing daily to earn. I have not done the math but it feels like it takes something like 30days to earn those 50 tokens. It was only by shear fluke I spotted the message at 11.30pm last night otherwise I would have lost 50 tokens myself. There should have been more notice to give people chance to open the box's for the tokens they earned. A lot of us where only opening them as we needed them.
They said something about no one will lose the ones they already have, they just took the tokens out of the loot tables so no more can be gotten as rewards and will have to buy any new ones.
Which is the problem they did this with such short notice that many people who have spent months earning those tokens have now lost those 50 tokens and have to spend 125k Dilithium to get the tokens back they had already spent many hours earning. I can live with the change but not the fact they have removed tokens we have already spent hours earning without a reasonable timeframe to do anything about it. They should have given 1 weeks notice at a minimum or only change the loot table for new box's leaving old box.
Plus they are charging players Dilithium for tokens then not giving any tokens if you are at the cap but still taking the Dilithium without any warning there is a cap.
Short notice of what? I just logged in with the character I was using yesterday a few minutes ago. I had 23 admiralty skips and 41 endeavor rerolls before the patch. Now I still have the 23 admiralty and 41 endeavor tokens. The ONLY thing that has changed is that there is now a "buy" button on those pages to acquire new ones (which I will not be pressing at all btw).
They are doing exactly what they said, you keep all of the token you already have, and apparently to add any more to that total you have to buy them now instead of getting them as random rewards.
The problem is not "short notice", it is the devs silly thinking that if they stopped giving out more free skip/reroll tokens that people would actually buy them instead.
Short notice to open the box's we have. Many players would only open the box's as they needed tokens so would never have more then 1 or 2 reroll tokens at a time. But they had earnt and had over 50+ tokens in box's which they have now lost due to the short notice of the change. There are players that could have had 50 tokens but now have 2 tokens.
I don't think that would have occurred to them since I suspect most people open the boxes to get the other rewards like EC and don't store them up like that. I always opened them right away and if I got too close to the maximum I would just keep an eye out for situations were it is advantageous to skip or reroll rather than ignore or "shuttle pass". I was surprised to hear that anyone was storing the things up for instance.
To me all the change means is that endeavors and admiralty will bog down somewhat (especially admiralty since it is needlessly grindy and takes time away from the game itself) and they are excruciatingly slow as it is.
But why? I've opened every box as I've gotten them, and skipped nearly every TFO based endeavor out there, and not dropped below 40 reroll token in like a year. There is no good reason to have ever saved up this many boxes for reroll tokens.
Many players would only open box's as they needed tokens. They had no other reason to open the box's so why not store them and only open as needed as has been the case for years. It saves on clicking and time. You might have never gone below 40 tokens but thats only because you don't play the same as other players who use more tokens. Many did drop to zero tokens and have now lost out on tokens they have earned and should have had access to.
How ever you look at it the change was given in an unreasonable timeframe and has hurt players taking away items players have spent hours earning. At the very least there should have been a weeks notice if not longer. You don't let players earn tokens for years and then go pay 125k dill to get those tokens back. The two solutions are to only change new box's or give reasonable notice of the change.
I can live with the change but the devs posting the news while we are sleeping and then downtime happens when we are at work so by the time we get home after work its to late to react is a very poor move by the devs. They should have given players more notice 48hours at least if not a week.
EDIT:"But why would you do that in the first place? What did you gain by not opening them from the get go?"
It doesn't matter why, its done like this by a lot of players and this change has created a massive influx of new Dilithium the opposite to a Dilithium sink. I know loads of people who now have 300k+ extra Dilithium because of this change. Dilithium that otherwise would likely have never been created.
In short lots of players only open box's as they need something. Its a common way to play and the devs should have taken this into account. There are any number of reasons why players do this. I have a very good personal reason myself but I can only speak for myself not the why the other players do it.
i'm not concerned by these modifications, because I don't use admiralty and endeavours all the time, only when I want or motivated. Admiralty is too boring to do it all the time and for the endeavours, I take my time, if i'm not intested by something or I don't want to do them, then I do something else.
I'm rather skeptical, but something must be tried
They could have tried - adding - something to the game, instead of taking away things. But of course, that would require some actual effort to improve the game.
Far easier to just remove some rewards and then watch what little effort you put in being made undone by the next promo release. Or indeed, another Mudd pack that largely undid the effect of the very nice dilithium sink we had in the Phoenix store.
(And yes, they may still add something to the game. Later on. Until they do, I'll judge this decision with the knowledge we have now.)
Look. I was right. Sort of. There's a key sale on the same day a dilithium sink is added.
Makes it kind of hard to believe they're really taking away stuff to 'fix the economy'.
Yeah, this is just nuts. They themselves admitted the new sinks weren't likely have that much of an effect, and at the same time they introduce them they launch a sale that will completely remove any effect the sink would have?
I really hate to say this, but at this point Cryptic is either lying or demonstrating a stunning failure to comprehend cause and effect.
And just to top things off--anybody else noticed the damned landing page is back with every single character log-in? Gotta say, that didn't make my day.
I think his calculation is totally wrong. When I pass an admirality mission, I get another. The Question is, how much more dili do I get from the other mission I can do. Addionally, what do I get now for a critical success. Are they obsolet now.
For the re-roll it should be the difference of not doing the endeavor. I think the amount of dili from 4 boxes is to high. There are green, blue and purple.
On the last admirality event it took sometimes a lot of pass tokens to get the next campaign mission in schedule.
The problem with this argument is that most of those so called "garbage" traits and consoles are, in fact, not actually garbage. They just aren't meta. And most of the so called "solutions" are just people asking them to make these traits/consoles as powerful as the D.O.M.I.N.O. console.
The problem with your argument is that "well technically..." doesn't make a difference in terms of practical application. This isn't a game or a business that exists strictly on napkins, which is where arguments like the one you're making belong. If less than 1% of players have any interest in using something then it absolutely doesn't matter that some rando on the forum can imagine someone maybe, one day, on a lark, using it for ten minutes because they want to balk some vaunted meta... it's still trash.
Devs don't make everything around the meta. Most people playing STO are casuals who don't care about the meta, and just use whatever they want. They only time the meta matters is when some overly performing things get spotted, becuase you don't want people to keep using those obviously over performing things. So they get "nerfed"
If it takes them several years to notice then it clearly wasn't overperforming in a way that mattered. Trying to cut everything down to the same level of mediocre utility, especially in a game that has no actual competitive play or structured play, is simply poor design. Things don't need to be "balanced", they just need to be entertaining enough that people will play with them - if people are almost universally shunning things then they're probably not fun even outside of what you declare to be "meta".
Sarcasm, hyperbole, joke, it doesn't matter, any statement suggesting real world murder is disgusting and should not be tolerated.
I think you work a little bit too hard on finding ways to be offended, and on trying to make your personal beliefs into objective crises. There are enough real problems in the world - we don't need to work on creating fake ones.
On that note, I could absolutely murder a taco right now, so I think I'll go grab one!
Sarcasm, hyperbole, joke, it doesn't matter, any statement suggesting real world murder is disgusting and should not be tolerated.
I think you work a little bit too hard on finding ways to be offended, and on trying to make your personal beliefs into objective crises. There are enough real problems in the world - we don't need to work on creating fake ones.
I'm not the one you suggested someone should murder so I am not offended, but people online making threats of violence or suggesting murder over ridiculously trivial issues like video game development decisions is a very real problem in this world and it needs to end.
. . . The two solutions are to only change new box's or give reasonable notice of the change. . . .
There are no "new boxes", making them would have added a completely new entry in the database and that kind of thing is best avoided since it adds overhead which leads to things like rubberbanding.
It is amusing to see they use mainline business ROI logic for this when it is something better handled by microtransaction theory, but then again STO in general has never understood the concept of microtransactions and impulse buying.
The opportunity for this to be an effective Dil Sink is already gutted before it even launched, who even uses reroll tokens anyways besides a small minority.
The opportunity for this to be an effective Dil Sink is already gutted before it even launched, who even uses reroll tokens anyways besides a small minority.
I think a lot of people use them, but very few actually depend on them and spend them more on a "waste not, want not" basis than anything else. I would use them (both types) to line things up for efficiency sometimes but I really don't do much admiralty because of the tedious grind away from the interesting parts of the game, and often do not go out of my way to do the endevors so it was somewhat handy to reroll to see if I could get something that would fit with what I was going to do already (like "kill Tholian ships" during the RA, or do specific damage type).
Neither of those things are worth spending that much dil on (or any at all). Those are purely convenience things, the kind of impulse buy microtransactions were invented for, and while in an absolute real-world value sense it would be a microtransaction, but the way currencies are set up and used in the game they are not from an ingame perspective.
No, manfriend, the purpose of Dilithium sinks has never been to 'impact our ability to earn/spend/stockpile Dilithium'. Instead, sinks have always been a voluntary way to spend Dilithium on something nice and shiny, like a Vanity Shield, or costume, or Phoenix boxes. You, however, just twisted the purpose of a sink to turn it into a shameless nerf.
Instead, sinks have always been a voluntary way to spend Dilithium on something nice and shiny, like a Vanity Shield, or costume, or Phoenix boxes.
This is demonstrably untrue as the biggest dil sinks in the game, fleet holding's don't operate on this line of thinking.
Even still, the use of re-roll token is voluntary, and optional, to get easier/shorted progress. Just like dil buyouts on crafting projects, and other similar sinks.
Um, no. All other sinks, Fleet or otherwise, have always been voluntary, and, when introduced, were never taking away something from you in the process: only what you were willing to give. But removing Endeavor tokens from possible drops is now making you pay for something which was heretofore for free. That's what makes this one a bloody nerf, and not just a sink.
The opportunity for this to be an effective Dil Sink is already gutted before it even launched, who even uses reroll tokens anyways besides a small minority.
Given how many people are complaining about their reroll token being taken away.... seemingly quite a few people use them.
Yeah because the Devs are taking something away to try to solve a problem they have created.
I mean yeah of course if you get a free token might aswell use it, loosing that entirely sounds simply bad practice.
Nobody likes having stuff taken away from them especially if its none of their fault.
Personally I don't like the change either I am in Fact regulary buying Dilithium for various things like Dil Crates etc.
Instead of adding value, they devalue their own systems now, wich is more likely to turn me away from investing zen to Buy Dilithium in the first place.
Of all the systems in mmos I seen over the years this is one of the worst this does not add any value just taking something existing away to try to force to create a sink that simply isn't really gonna interst anyone.
If anything that shows kinda of all the suggestions to add value to Dilithium that's more like bound to make people less likely to be interested in dailies.
Now if I get rolls I don't like I have little reason left to stay without tokens therefor also less to buy Dilithium myself overall as other games then simply become more intersting for me.
Doesn't impact players with a lot of dili, e.g. older players. A lot of us only do admiralty for dili, we're mostly max leveled. Endeavor is similar, again the older players with dili are mostly leveled there as well.
Painful impact on newer players just learning Admiralty/Endeavors who need dili to get better equipment.
Doesn't impact players with a lot of dili, e.g. older players. A lot of of only dod admiralty for dili, we're mostly max leveled. Endeavor is similar, again the older players with dili are mostly leveled there as well.
Painful impact on newer players just learning Admiralty/Endeavors who need dili to get better equipment.
Strange choice of dili sink.
That's how most of Cryptic's nerfs work. Do something that looks from the outside like it might work, but in the end it only hurts newbies and barely impacts the high-level players at all. Just like any and every attempt they've made at fighting powercreep.
Hmm. Well, my Admiralty passes have been generally maxed out, because I never bother to use them. And I think I might have a dozen Endeavor tokens, because I don't end up doing that many, and tokens were rare enough that I'd always save them "just in case"... because it always seemed easier to just wait for the next day's. (and certainly would never use a re-roll on anything but the top level Endeavor).
I didn't expect STO to fall into the hands of Greed like every other Pay to Win game out there. I am a Life Time subscriber and have been for many years, this just makes ZERO sense as you just rip off people by making them use Dil up instead of giving them content which could mean people could be forced to use these tokens in a different way, for example convert Tokens to Dil and Dil to Tokens. This would have given free to play players something as well as everybody else.
Slap in the face to anybody on a small budget and just greed in the pockets of STO itself. Disapointed guys
That's how most of Cryptic's nerfs work. Do something that looks from the outside like it might work, but in the end it only hurts newbies and barely impacts the high-level players at all. Just like any and every attempt they've made at fighting powercreep.
Actually the S13 balance pass raised DPS for average players, while only lowering DPS for the top end using the expensive handful of items that were overpowered.
Yeah, I'd have to call "citation needed" on that. And consider my unimpressed if you can only cite one example, out of the various nerfs Cryptic has made over the years.
Comments
Short notice of what? I just logged in with the character I was using yesterday a few minutes ago. I had 23 admiralty skips and 41 endeavor rerolls before the patch. Now I still have the 23 admiralty and 41 endeavor tokens. The ONLY thing that has changed is that there is now a "buy" button on those pages to acquire new ones (which I will not be pressing at all btw).
They are doing exactly what they said, you keep all of the token you already have, and apparently to add any more to that total you have to buy them now instead of getting them as random rewards.
The problem is not "short notice", it is the devs silly thinking that if they stopped giving out more free skip/reroll tokens that people would actually buy them instead when they eventually ran out of the ones they have built up.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I don't think that would have occurred to them since I suspect most people open the boxes to get the other rewards like EC and don't store them up like that. I always opened them right away and if I got too close to the maximum I would just keep an eye out for situations were it is advantageous to skip or reroll rather than ignore or "shuttle pass". I was surprised to hear that anyone was storing the things up for instance.
To me all the change means is that endeavors and admiralty will bog down somewhat (especially admiralty since it is needlessly grindy and takes time away from the game itself) and they are excruciatingly slow as it is.
How ever you look at it the change was given in an unreasonable timeframe and has hurt players taking away items players have spent hours earning. At the very least there should have been a weeks notice if not longer. You don't let players earn tokens for years and then go pay 125k dill to get those tokens back. The two solutions are to only change new box's or give reasonable notice of the change.
I can live with the change but the devs posting the news while we are sleeping and then downtime happens when we are at work so by the time we get home after work its to late to react is a very poor move by the devs. They should have given players more notice 48hours at least if not a week.
EDIT:"But why would you do that in the first place? What did you gain by not opening them from the get go?"
It doesn't matter why, its done like this by a lot of players and this change has created a massive influx of new Dilithium the opposite to a Dilithium sink. I know loads of people who now have 300k+ extra Dilithium because of this change. Dilithium that otherwise would likely have never been created.
In short lots of players only open box's as they need something. Its a common way to play and the devs should have taken this into account. There are any number of reasons why players do this. I have a very good personal reason myself but I can only speak for myself not the why the other players do it.
Yeah, this is just nuts. They themselves admitted the new sinks weren't likely have that much of an effect, and at the same time they introduce them they launch a sale that will completely remove any effect the sink would have?
I really hate to say this, but at this point Cryptic is either lying or demonstrating a stunning failure to comprehend cause and effect.
And just to top things off--anybody else noticed the damned landing page is back with every single character log-in? Gotta say, that didn't make my day.
I think his calculation is totally wrong. When I pass an admirality mission, I get another. The Question is, how much more dili do I get from the other mission I can do. Addionally, what do I get now for a critical success. Are they obsolet now.
For the re-roll it should be the difference of not doing the endeavor. I think the amount of dili from 4 boxes is to high. There are green, blue and purple.
On the last admirality event it took sometimes a lot of pass tokens to get the next campaign mission in schedule.
Threats against ANYONE are not tolerated. Comment removed. -Kael.
The problem with your argument is that "well technically..." doesn't make a difference in terms of practical application. This isn't a game or a business that exists strictly on napkins, which is where arguments like the one you're making belong. If less than 1% of players have any interest in using something then it absolutely doesn't matter that some rando on the forum can imagine someone maybe, one day, on a lark, using it for ten minutes because they want to balk some vaunted meta... it's still trash.
If it takes them several years to notice then it clearly wasn't overperforming in a way that mattered. Trying to cut everything down to the same level of mediocre utility, especially in a game that has no actual competitive play or structured play, is simply poor design. Things don't need to be "balanced", they just need to be entertaining enough that people will play with them - if people are almost universally shunning things then they're probably not fun even outside of what you declare to be "meta".
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I see Borticus is completely missing the point. Why am I not surprised?
I think you work a little bit too hard on finding ways to be offended, and on trying to make your personal beliefs into objective crises. There are enough real problems in the world - we don't need to work on creating fake ones.
On that note, I could absolutely murder a taco right now, so I think I'll go grab one!
There are no "new boxes", making them would have added a completely new entry in the database and that kind of thing is best avoided since it adds overhead which leads to things like rubberbanding.
It is amusing to see they use mainline business ROI logic for this when it is something better handled by microtransaction theory, but then again STO in general has never understood the concept of microtransactions and impulse buying.
The opportunity for this to be an effective Dil Sink is already gutted before it even launched, who even uses reroll tokens anyways besides a small minority.
I think a lot of people use them, but very few actually depend on them and spend them more on a "waste not, want not" basis than anything else. I would use them (both types) to line things up for efficiency sometimes but I really don't do much admiralty because of the tedious grind away from the interesting parts of the game, and often do not go out of my way to do the endevors so it was somewhat handy to reroll to see if I could get something that would fit with what I was going to do already (like "kill Tholian ships" during the RA, or do specific damage type).
Neither of those things are worth spending that much dil on (or any at all). Those are purely convenience things, the kind of impulse buy microtransactions were invented for, and while in an absolute real-world value sense it would be a microtransaction, but the way currencies are set up and used in the game they are not from an ingame perspective.
No, manfriend, the purpose of Dilithium sinks has never been to 'impact our ability to earn/spend/stockpile Dilithium'. Instead, sinks have always been a voluntary way to spend Dilithium on something nice and shiny, like a Vanity Shield, or costume, or Phoenix boxes. You, however, just twisted the purpose of a sink to turn it into a shameless nerf.
Feeling quite gutted, indeed.
Um, no. All other sinks, Fleet or otherwise, have always been voluntary, and, when introduced, were never taking away something from you in the process: only what you were willing to give. But removing Endeavor tokens from possible drops is now making you pay for something which was heretofore for free. That's what makes this one a bloody nerf, and not just a sink.
Yeah because the Devs are taking something away to try to solve a problem they have created.
I mean yeah of course if you get a free token might aswell use it, loosing that entirely sounds simply bad practice.
Nobody likes having stuff taken away from them especially if its none of their fault.
Personally I don't like the change either I am in Fact regulary buying Dilithium for various things like Dil Crates etc.
Instead of adding value, they devalue their own systems now, wich is more likely to turn me away from investing zen to Buy Dilithium in the first place.
Of all the systems in mmos I seen over the years this is one of the worst this does not add any value just taking something existing away to try to force to create a sink that simply isn't really gonna interst anyone.
If anything that shows kinda of all the suggestions to add value to Dilithium that's more like bound to make people less likely to be interested in dailies.
Now if I get rolls I don't like I have little reason left to stay without tokens therefor also less to buy Dilithium myself overall as other games then simply become more intersting for me.
Painful impact on newer players just learning Admiralty/Endeavors who need dili to get better equipment.
Strange choice of dili sink.
EDIT: tip0s r haRd
That's how most of Cryptic's nerfs work. Do something that looks from the outside like it might work, but in the end it only hurts newbies and barely impacts the high-level players at all. Just like any and every attempt they've made at fighting powercreep.
So, for me at least, no real change. /shrug
Slap in the face to anybody on a small budget and just greed in the pockets of STO itself. Disapointed guys
Yeah, I'd have to call "citation needed" on that. And consider my unimpressed if you can only cite one example, out of the various nerfs Cryptic has made over the years.