Hmm. Well, my Admiralty passes have been generally maxed out, because I never bother to use them. And I think I might have a dozen Endeavor tokens, because I don't end up doing that many, and tokens were rare enough that I'd always save them "just in case"... because it always seemed easier to just wait for the next day's. (and certainly would never use a re-roll on anything but the top level Endeavor).
So, for me at least, no real change. /shrug
I only do them for Recruit challenges these days. There are better ways to grind dili that are less tedious.
Endeavors were a Klingon Gamma Recruit challenge. I was working towards that when it turned out to be bugged, wouldn't advance, so rather than fix it Cryptic took out the challenge. Nasty nerf. That and the most recent live stream on the latest ship really started me to question why I'm still here. Probably forced routine!
When they said on stream this was going to be a low-effect but long-term dil sink, I think they were being a tad optimistic. With or without the continued free tokens, this was never going to be remotely effective. The free tokens should still be obtainable, even if at a severely reduced drop rate, sure the price is a little high but if the daily endeavour sucks then sure, assuming it's the endeavour xp I'm after and not the potential dil reward. Though chances are I'd rather not do the endeavour at all than skip to something equally bad, ideally we'd either see what we're skipping for or better yet get a choice of two new endeavours to pick from.
The admiralty tokens are essentially useless now, assuming one is farming admiralty for the ore in the first place, I dare say they wont spend refined dil to get to the ore faster. Yes, I see new players needing the skips but they're not the target here so making it harder for them isn't useful, the big farmers will likely have a fleet of ships and will never need the skips anyway, and if they do they'll just throw a shuttle in. The admiralty tokens are valuable when free to get [to do the tours of duty faster], but counter productive when you need to pay refined dil, if you goal is to get ore. Perhaps I am missing something.
Don't get me wrong, I like they're adding the option to buy skips especially for endeavours and that'll be great for those who are often low on tokens. But that's what it should be, an option. Removing something free and charging for it instead of implementing a sink that offers something that people desire sucks a little. Granted, the devs are likely working on other dil sink ideas which might be great.
"Players have been begging for effective sinks. This is what they are going to look like." - Borticus
Yes, players have been begging for effective sinks, to combat the issue that was continually compounded by producing a steady flow of zen desirables. One of the earlier attempts for a dil sink with the vanity shields was completely negated by the zen sale they had at the same time. They even admitted to that coincidental backfire on stream since the sale had been long scheduled, and yet here they introduce this dil sink while again running a sale, this time on keys. Scheduled or not, this has implications for how seriously they're taking the dil-ex issue. Not to mention the range of other items in the near past that cost zen, also compounding the issue. The backlog for people waiting for zen is likely huge now and is only getting worse.
Suggesting that future dil sinks will look the same does not bode well. Sure, implement more optional things in the future for dil, I support that fully but I was really hoping for more attractive things to spend dil on. And though this may very slightly help with the dil inflation, it won't do much at all to bring new zen into the dil-ex which is half of the problem, no?
They might succeed by trying to encourage new zen into the market while also reducing dil inflation, they worry about moving to fast and damaging the economy while compounding the economy one sidedly with continued desirable zen products.
-Move experimental ship upgrades to just the dil and phoenix store
-Add older mission gear to the phoenix store i.e. Jem'Hadar boff, shard of possibilities etc.
-Add a mastery completion token in the phoenix box, maxes one ship mastery per character
-Add the option to get scrap with dil, along side the current scrapping of gear
With all the new ships we get via zen store, lockboxes and infinity promotions, perhaps put just one of the planned ships in the phoenix store exclusively, like a promo ship but for dil. This would bring new zen into the market while also reducing the inflation of existing refined dil.
I didn't mean to ramble on that much and I'm sure I'm wrong about half of it but hey, we're all passionate and differing opinions is a good thing. [Being passionate however is no excuse to bully the devs either] Hopefully an effective dil sink or five come soon, they have to get through the backlog of dil before we even see zen listed on the market again, let alone a reasonable exchange rate.
The problem is not "short notice", it is the devs silly thinking that if they stopped giving out more free skip/reroll tokens that people would actually buy them instead ...
ikr lol silly devs, they know nothing about their own game and the players playing it
1st rule of business, know your customer. STO Devs don't.
The problem is not "short notice", it is the devs silly thinking that if they stopped giving out more free skip/reroll tokens that people would actually buy them instead ...
ikr lol silly devs, they know nothing about their own game and the players playing it
1st rule of business, know your customer. STO Devs don't.
@borticuscryptic I thought we actually were having an intelligent discussion, or at least were offering motivated critique. Guess not.
The sad irony is, that I was actually ready, yea, psyched even, to sink a lot of my Dilithium into something cool. You have no idea how much Dilithium I was willing to give you for, say, playerhousing, costumes without clipping, working trophies on non-Fed ships, etc. The number would astound you, trust me. And why? Because Space Barbie is the true endgame. 'Been there, done that' holds true for me, quite literally. I have endless ships (and the good ones too; primarily the good ones, tbh), have so much Epic gear I will pass on the upcoming 1,500 Lobi even, as I have every Lobi console already I could ever want. And so forth.
All I was looking for was Space Barbie, and was willing to shell out millions of Dilithium to get something worthwhile having. As it stands, though, I will not even pay you 1,500 Dilithum for an Endeavor token, as you decided to frustrate my game progress instead, and basically just took away something without offering another cool thing in return. So, now you get nothing. THAT is irony for you.
Why giving attention to negative people there are so many positive people to give attention to. There will always be people who love to tear every thing down. All these tweets at them will only make them do it more.
Keep focus on the nice people, ignore the bad ones.
PS: personal attacks is a bit exaggerated, no one is physically attacked. Only if it is true what they say it can hurt. Else it just tells something about the person who does it.
I honestly don't see what Cryptic expected to accomplish here. There was no way this was going to make much of a dent in the best-case scenario, but running a sale at the same time they introduce the sink.... I get that some people are apparently going overboard. But Cryptic legit messed up here, and it's not wrong to point that out.
I thought we actually were having an intelligent discussion, or at least were offering motivated critique. Guess not.
His comment was not directed at you or anyone else who was offering constructive criticism in a civil manner, it was directed at people who crossed lines that should never be crossed.
> @keepcalmchiveon said: > meh. im not against it as a whole. > the player based asked for dil sinks...while this may not have been one of the choices, it works. > it works better for dil millionaires, and not so well for those with little or just starting...however, this does halt the expedited progression of endevs so they dont have to go above 600 as of yet. (for most of the payer base i would say)
An astute observation. While it doesn't seem a solution as a dilithium sink it could produce a pushback reaction that will slow the accelerated progression before it picks up en masse. As an unstated design goal that's a good one.
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,559Community Moderator
His comment was not directed at you or anyone else who was offering constructive criticism in a civil manner, it was directed at people who crossed lines that should never be crossed.
^This^
Recently we've had people crossing that line, and in a recent case an individual didn't just cross it, they blew threw it with a rocket car. It was this incident that warrented a direct response from the Devs and the recent update to forum rules.
> @corinthalas said: > whoever suggested this change and all the people who didn't call that person out for being a dumb***.
My comments to that effect got scrubbed ☹. Too little too late though. The dil sink suggestions thread was a novel and I only found the references to the "great idea" here.
I hate when games do this. They only needed to make one change not two. Adding this first would be better to then see how much it needs to be restricted. They could always play with it and then tweak how often the free ones drop. They don't need to axe the whole system. diversity is better in this case.
Always add to the game, don't take away from it. Developing more always lead to more value and option to the player base over the company. That is always the correct answer. Appease the customer not yourself. It's how you run a business correctly and effectivelly. A game more than anything makes this easy. As I just pointed out. Tweak the free don't remove it. Add the idea to see how the flow is. Then tweak as needed. The more value there is to the paying person the more they are willing to give out. That is the secret to getting peoples money. Make it worth "their" while. this is the basis of good programming and game design. And games lend themselves to the concept by nature. Never has a business been able to do that so easily for so many in the history of mankind. Not being able to take advantage of that is the worst failure from a business sense you could ever make out of all industries. when you have the potential of the entire planet you don't need large transactions hypothetically. And the more you add the more people will flow into the game. The whole advantage of F2P is the fact there is no entry cost. It's the same as letting people read books before buying them. It's the exact same model. It's the superior model.
In fact one idea is to make the free tweak itself. In depth game realities are better. But there could be simpler out of game logic to go on.
I honestly don't see what Cryptic expected to accomplish here. There was no way this was going to make much of a dent in the best-case scenario, but running a sale at the same time they introduce the sink.... I get that some people are apparently going overboard. But Cryptic legit messed up here, and it's not wrong to point that out.
I didn't even realize they are running a sale on keys while they released this "sink" that players will "enjoy" using. BLOODY HELL. Yeah I'm done. Don't even bother to fix the dilex at this point...just remove it. They obviously don't care and so removal is the best option.
Agreed. Either they don't care at all, or they have zero understanding of exactly what's been driving up the dilex all this time. Me? I saw this coming at least two years ago. Causation does not equal causation, but after two years of watching the dilex spike with every. Single. Sale, it was impossible to deny the connection. When the sales became nearly constant, the writing was very obviously on the wall.
If they're still undercutting their own dil sinks with stunts like this, they either don't care or are disturbingly oblivious to how their own game works.
I use admirality to gain delithuim, why would i want to spend delithuim to gain delithium ?
The endevours is worst, there are some extremely annoying tasks, ill ether have to finish or skip, but i am not giving delithuim for something that can go from bad to worst.
Now if it was a "finish it token" instead of reroll, i would consider.
I think a proper delithium dump should be something big, where you have to collect alot of delithuim in order to get a fat prize that it is actually worth it.
His comment was not directed at you or anyone else who was offering constructive criticism in a civil manner, it was directed at people who crossed lines that should never be crossed.
^This^
Recently we've had people crossing that line, and in a recent case an individual didn't just cross it, they blew threw it with a rocket car. It was this incident that warrented a direct response from the Devs and the recent update to forum rules.
Sorry to hear that happened. People should always try and keep a civil tongue. I also do hope the Devs understand why ppl are upset, though. Me, I don't get the whole having Kael ask us for ideas, only to find out all of those were wholeheartedly dismissed, with us now having to pay for Endeavor pass tokens instead. 'Frustrating' is as good a word as any.
His comment was not directed at you or anyone else who was offering constructive criticism in a civil manner, it was directed at people who crossed lines that should never be crossed.
^This^
Recently we've had people crossing that line, and in a recent case an individual didn't just cross it, they blew threw it with a rocket car. It was this incident that warrented a direct response from the Devs and the recent update to forum rules.
Sorry to hear that happened. People should always try and keep a civil tongue. I also do hope the Devs understand why ppl are upset, though. Me, I don't get the whole having Kael ask us for ideas, only to find out all of those were wholeheartedly dismissed, with us now having to pay for Endeavor pass tokens instead. 'Frustrating' is as good a word as any.
It is, unfortunately, not surprising. Remember when the landing page debuted, and they asked for feedback--and proceeded to ignore basically all of it? ...Speaking of which, it's back, too, popping up every time I switch characters. Did they break something again, or inexplicably decide we needed pop-up adds on log-in after all?
Comments
I only do them for Recruit challenges these days. There are better ways to grind dili that are less tedious.
Endeavors were a Klingon Gamma Recruit challenge. I was working towards that when it turned out to be bugged, wouldn't advance, so rather than fix it Cryptic took out the challenge. Nasty nerf. That and the most recent live stream on the latest ship really started me to question why I'm still here. Probably forced routine!
When they said on stream this was going to be a low-effect but long-term dil sink, I think they were being a tad optimistic. With or without the continued free tokens, this was never going to be remotely effective. The free tokens should still be obtainable, even if at a severely reduced drop rate, sure the price is a little high but if the daily endeavour sucks then sure, assuming it's the endeavour xp I'm after and not the potential dil reward. Though chances are I'd rather not do the endeavour at all than skip to something equally bad, ideally we'd either see what we're skipping for or better yet get a choice of two new endeavours to pick from.
The admiralty tokens are essentially useless now, assuming one is farming admiralty for the ore in the first place, I dare say they wont spend refined dil to get to the ore faster. Yes, I see new players needing the skips but they're not the target here so making it harder for them isn't useful, the big farmers will likely have a fleet of ships and will never need the skips anyway, and if they do they'll just throw a shuttle in. The admiralty tokens are valuable when free to get [to do the tours of duty faster], but counter productive when you need to pay refined dil, if you goal is to get ore. Perhaps I am missing something.
Don't get me wrong, I like they're adding the option to buy skips especially for endeavours and that'll be great for those who are often low on tokens. But that's what it should be, an option. Removing something free and charging for it instead of implementing a sink that offers something that people desire sucks a little. Granted, the devs are likely working on other dil sink ideas which might be great.
"Players have been begging for effective sinks. This is what they are going to look like." - Borticus
Yes, players have been begging for effective sinks, to combat the issue that was continually compounded by producing a steady flow of zen desirables. One of the earlier attempts for a dil sink with the vanity shields was completely negated by the zen sale they had at the same time. They even admitted to that coincidental backfire on stream since the sale had been long scheduled, and yet here they introduce this dil sink while again running a sale, this time on keys. Scheduled or not, this has implications for how seriously they're taking the dil-ex issue. Not to mention the range of other items in the near past that cost zen, also compounding the issue. The backlog for people waiting for zen is likely huge now and is only getting worse.
Suggesting that future dil sinks will look the same does not bode well. Sure, implement more optional things in the future for dil, I support that fully but I was really hoping for more attractive things to spend dil on. And though this may very slightly help with the dil inflation, it won't do much at all to bring new zen into the dil-ex which is half of the problem, no?
They might succeed by trying to encourage new zen into the market while also reducing dil inflation, they worry about moving to fast and damaging the economy while compounding the economy one sidedly with continued desirable zen products.
-Move experimental ship upgrades to just the dil and phoenix store
-Add older mission gear to the phoenix store i.e. Jem'Hadar boff, shard of possibilities etc.
-Add a mastery completion token in the phoenix box, maxes one ship mastery per character
-Add the option to get scrap with dil, along side the current scrapping of gear
With all the new ships we get via zen store, lockboxes and infinity promotions, perhaps put just one of the planned ships in the phoenix store exclusively, like a promo ship but for dil. This would bring new zen into the market while also reducing the inflation of existing refined dil.
I didn't mean to ramble on that much and I'm sure I'm wrong about half of it but hey, we're all passionate and differing opinions is a good thing. [Being passionate however is no excuse to bully the devs either] Hopefully an effective dil sink or five come soon, they have to get through the backlog of dil before we even see zen listed on the market again, let alone a reasonable exchange rate.
If you can't make your point in 5 lines of less then you're wasting your time.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
ikr lol silly devs, they know nothing about their own game and the players playing it
1st rule of business, know your customer. STO Devs don't.
That much has been plain for a very long time.
@borticuscryptic I thought we actually were having an intelligent discussion, or at least were offering motivated critique. Guess not.
The sad irony is, that I was actually ready, yea, psyched even, to sink a lot of my Dilithium into something cool. You have no idea how much Dilithium I was willing to give you for, say, playerhousing, costumes without clipping, working trophies on non-Fed ships, etc. The number would astound you, trust me. And why? Because Space Barbie is the true endgame. 'Been there, done that' holds true for me, quite literally. I have endless ships (and the good ones too; primarily the good ones, tbh), have so much Epic gear I will pass on the upcoming 1,500 Lobi even, as I have every Lobi console already I could ever want. And so forth.
All I was looking for was Space Barbie, and was willing to shell out millions of Dilithium to get something worthwhile having. As it stands, though, I will not even pay you 1,500 Dilithum for an Endeavor token, as you decided to frustrate my game progress instead, and basically just took away something without offering another cool thing in return. So, now you get nothing. THAT is irony for you.
Why giving attention to negative people there are so many positive people to give attention to. There will always be people who love to tear every thing down. All these tweets at them will only make them do it more.
Keep focus on the nice people, ignore the bad ones.
PS: personal attacks is a bit exaggerated, no one is physically attacked. Only if it is true what they say it can hurt. Else it just tells something about the person who does it.
> meh. im not against it as a whole.
> the player based asked for dil sinks...while this may not have been one of the choices, it works.
> it works better for dil millionaires, and not so well for those with little or just starting...however, this does halt the expedited progression of endevs so they dont have to go above 600 as of yet. (for most of the payer base i would say)
An astute observation. While it doesn't seem a solution as a dilithium sink it could produce a pushback reaction that will slow the accelerated progression before it picks up en masse. As an unstated design goal that's a good one.
Recently we've had people crossing that line, and in a recent case an individual didn't just cross it, they blew threw it with a rocket car. It was this incident that warrented a direct response from the Devs and the recent update to forum rules.
> whoever suggested this change and all the people who didn't call that person out for being a dumb***.
My comments to that effect got scrubbed ☹. Too little too late though. The dil sink suggestions thread was a novel and I only found the references to the "great idea" here.
Always add to the game, don't take away from it. Developing more always lead to more value and option to the player base over the company. That is always the correct answer. Appease the customer not yourself. It's how you run a business correctly and effectivelly. A game more than anything makes this easy. As I just pointed out. Tweak the free don't remove it. Add the idea to see how the flow is. Then tweak as needed. The more value there is to the paying person the more they are willing to give out. That is the secret to getting peoples money. Make it worth "their" while. this is the basis of good programming and game design. And games lend themselves to the concept by nature. Never has a business been able to do that so easily for so many in the history of mankind. Not being able to take advantage of that is the worst failure from a business sense you could ever make out of all industries. when you have the potential of the entire planet you don't need large transactions hypothetically. And the more you add the more people will flow into the game. The whole advantage of F2P is the fact there is no entry cost. It's the same as letting people read books before buying them. It's the exact same model. It's the superior model.
In fact one idea is to make the free tweak itself. In depth game realities are better. But there could be simpler out of game logic to go on.
Agreed. Either they don't care at all, or they have zero understanding of exactly what's been driving up the dilex all this time. Me? I saw this coming at least two years ago. Causation does not equal causation, but after two years of watching the dilex spike with every. Single. Sale, it was impossible to deny the connection. When the sales became nearly constant, the writing was very obviously on the wall.
If they're still undercutting their own dil sinks with stunts like this, they either don't care or are disturbingly oblivious to how their own game works.
I use admirality to gain delithuim, why would i want to spend delithuim to gain delithium ?
The endevours is worst, there are some extremely annoying tasks, ill ether have to finish or skip, but i am not giving delithuim for something that can go from bad to worst.
Now if it was a "finish it token" instead of reroll, i would consider.
I think a proper delithium dump should be something big, where you have to collect alot of delithuim in order to get a fat prize that it is actually worth it.
Cryptic: We have to remove the free option or it doesn't work as a dil sink.
Also Cryptic: Here, have some free Phoenix boxes.
What's that you say? It's fine because the availability of the free ones is very limited? Interesting.
But I respawn
I am duranium!
Sorry to hear that happened.
It is, unfortunately, not surprising. Remember when the landing page debuted, and they asked for feedback--and proceeded to ignore basically all of it? ...Speaking of which, it's back, too, popping up every time I switch characters. Did they break something again, or inexplicably decide we needed pop-up adds on log-in after all?