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Tomorrow: Endevour/Admiralty pass tokens will ONLY be available for dilithium

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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 55,652 Community Moderator
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    With the typos some of us have lost real life money due to those typos and others typos have caused mass confusion among players. Yet it feels those of us with valid criticism on those style of typos like the people that lost real money are being lumped into the same group as the small number of toxic players. A few typos here and there is acceptable but the current typo situation it well past acceptable and causing problems that need looking at.

    So does that justify personal attacks somehow?
    But isn't that like the point of a moderator?
    To moderate forums, identify and extinguish the flames before they engulf the whole thread, instead of torching the whole thing and hope the same people will behave in another one?
    A mod's job gets harder when there's more and more chaos to try and get through, sometimes manually. And we're not paid to do this. We're volunteers.
    A mod, once again. That's the whole point of having them in a community.
    That reminds me of the (incredibly bad) teaching methods of "I don't know who started this and I don't care, you're all punished."

    We got three mods total. Myself being the rookie still learning how far to go. Our job gets easier when people report problem posts. It allows us to zero in on things a lot quicker. The report button allows us to do precision strikes, versus the carpet bombing we sometimes have to do in threads when it just spirals out of control. We're only human as well, and in the case of the other two mods, have RL responsibilities. Our role as mods is made easier or harder by the community either working with us or against us.

    There's a fine line we walk. We take flak quite a bit for actions we take as well. If we start redacting problematic posts from certain individuals more often than others in a thread, we get called out for "censorship" or mod abuse. We nuke a whole thread that can't be salvaged, we get called out for it. We had a whole thread over thread closure. It ain't easy. We try to do what we can, but even we can get overwhelmed because we're just as human as the next forumite. I'm personally feeling overwhelmed right now, and when I ask for help from the community on something like keeping the peace, I mean it. I want help because I'm only human. I can't just sit here and take flak and sort through flames all the time. I need breaks to get away from the drama, and I'd like to be able to zero in on the specific problems rather than have to read an entire thread and get overwhelmed. Without help from people reporting posts... its a lot to deal with. I've gotten praise as a mod because I try to be fair, understanding, and generally being a real person. But even I have my limits and I try to keep that from showing on the forums when I have to do the Mod thing.

    Mods need all the help they can get, especially in times like this, to actually sort through the flames without snapping themselves.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • paradox#7391 paradox Member Posts: 1,302 Arc User
    edited August 2021
    Players: *ask for something via a poll made by the team or from observation made by various players*
    Team: *ignores the results. Makes something completely different.
    Actually, when the dilex first crashed and people started throwing out ideas one of the most common suggestions I saw was the ability to buy endeavor reroll tokens with dilithium. No one asked for the free ones to be removed, but the idea itself is something people DID ask for. This change is proof that they DO in fact listen to us.

    It's good to know that this isn't the Devs fault, but rather the players who suggested this idea, Honestly I'm going to have to side with the Mods like usual, you guys need to calm the TRIBBLE down, we don't need to make a mountain out of a molehill, please don't make things worse, the Devs didn't do anything wrong and the last thing we need is a Dil Ex Civil War.

    Lol first the Dil Ex Crash and now a Dil Ex Civil War, these Story Arcs literally write themselves, if we replace Dil with Energy Credits in the script this could possibly end up as STO content.
  • solidshark214solidshark214 Member Posts: 288 Arc User
    Players: *ask for something via a poll made by the team or from observation made by various players*
    Team: *ignores the results. Makes something completely different.
    Actually, when the dilex first crashed and people started throwing out ideas one of the most common suggestions I saw was the ability to buy endeavor reroll tokens with dilithium. No one asked for the free ones to be removed, but the idea itself is something people DID ask for. This change is proof that they DO in fact listen to us.

    It's good to know that this isn't the Devs fault, but rather the players who suggested this idea, Honestly I going to have to side with the Mods like usual, you guys need to calm the TRIBBLE down, we don't need to make a mountain out of a molehill, please don't make things worse, the Devs didn't do anything wrong and the last thing we need is a Dil Ex Civil War.

    Lol first the Dil Ex Crash and now a Dil Ex Civil War, these Story Arcs literally write themselves, if we replace Dil with Energy Credits in the script this could possibly end up as STO content.

    Point of information: nobody here suggested they simultaneously run yet another sale to completely negate any benefit the new dil sink might have. This is not entirely the players' fault.
  • paradox#7391 paradox Member Posts: 1,302 Arc User
    edited August 2021
    Players: *ask for something via a poll made by the team or from observation made by various players*
    Team: *ignores the results. Makes something completely different.
    Actually, when the dilex first crashed and people started throwing out ideas one of the most common suggestions I saw was the ability to buy endeavor reroll tokens with dilithium. No one asked for the free ones to be removed, but the idea itself is something people DID ask for. This change is proof that they DO in fact listen to us.

    It's good to know that this isn't the Devs fault, but rather the players who suggested this idea, Honestly I going to have to side with the Mods like usual, you guys need to calm the TRIBBLE down, we don't need to make a mountain out of a molehill, please don't make things worse, the Devs didn't do anything wrong and the last thing we need is a Dil Ex Civil War.

    Lol first the Dil Ex Crash and now a Dil Ex Civil War, these Story Arcs literally write themselves, if we replace Dil with Energy Credits in the script this could possibly end up as STO content.

    Point of information: nobody here suggested they simultaneously run yet another sale to completely negate any benefit the new dil sink might have. This is not entirely the players' fault.

    That's just bad timing, you know how it is with schedules and deadlines, they're major pains in the TRIBBLE, but they got to get done.
  • solidshark214solidshark214 Member Posts: 288 Arc User
    Players: *ask for something via a poll made by the team or from observation made by various players*
    Team: *ignores the results. Makes something completely different.
    Actually, when the dilex first crashed and people started throwing out ideas one of the most common suggestions I saw was the ability to buy endeavor reroll tokens with dilithium. No one asked for the free ones to be removed, but the idea itself is something people DID ask for. This change is proof that they DO in fact listen to us.

    It's good to know that this isn't the Devs fault, but rather the players who suggested this idea, Honestly I going to have to side with the Mods like usual, you guys need to calm the TRIBBLE down, we don't need to make a mountain out of a molehill, please don't make things worse, the Devs didn't do anything wrong and the last thing we need is a Dil Ex Civil War.

    Lol first the Dil Ex Crash and now a Dil Ex Civil War, these Story Arcs literally write themselves, if we replace Dil with Energy Credits in the script this could possibly end up as STO content.

    Point of information: nobody here suggested they simultaneously run yet another sale to completely negate any benefit the new dil sink might have. This is not entirely the players' fault.

    That's just bad timing, you know how it is with schedules and deadlines, they're major pains in the TRIBBLE, but they got to get done.

    Yeah, that excuse is starting to wear really thin. It's not like they don't know when they've got these things scheduled. If they know they've got a sale coming, which they certainly should know would negate any benefits from a self-admitted minor dil sink, they shouldn't have launched the sink right now at all. They ended up with backlash and zero benefit as a result.
  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,240 Arc User
    edited August 2021
    rattler2 wrote: »
    A mod's job gets harder when there's more and more chaos to try and get through, sometimes manually. And we're not paid to do this. We're volunteers.
    [...]
    We got three mods total.
    Which brings us to one of the main source of all the problems: Cryptic/Perfect World do not take moderation and community management seriously, betting on volunteers to do the job, with apparently no support or training.

    And while it's admirable people are willing to help with that, it's a bandaid, taxing solution. It should be a plus, a bonus to an existing, dedicated team because we're not talking about a small fanbase handling a little forum of a non-official community, but an official community and network of forums, reddit, twitter, facebook, etc for an official game of the freaking Star Trek franchise.


    #TASforSTO
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  • captainrebel78#5049 captainrebel78 Member Posts: 54 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Ok... guys... first off... how do you know the Devs are ignoring suggestions that are being offered? Just because it wasn't the absolute first thing that came out or it didn't come out the next day by magic?

    The Dev Team is looking at MULTIPLE options, most likely including those being suggested by players. However the Devs are not required to give us play by play commentary on what is going on behind the scenes.

    The situation is complicated, and its going to take more than just one single thing to solve it. There are still good suggestions coming out, and there are a few that either don't make sense at all or will do the exact opposite of the goal. You can't just say "do this" and it will magically fix all the problems. These things take study, discussion, and development time to impliment. Just like some of those harder to track down bugs, you gotta be patient. I mean think about it. Back in Season 7 with the switch to the Rep system, we had a bug for a YEAR that blocked some characters who earned accolades from their accolade tailor unlocks. They eventually fixed it, but it still took a long time.

    And then we come to the communication situation. Bort outlined it pretty clearly that the highly hostile environment discourages them from directly communicating with the community because they'll get their heads bitten off over some decision or another that some extremely vocal people don't agree with. Would anyone want to go into a room and be attacked?
    • Community complains about lack of communication
    • Devs try to communicate
    • Community attacks
    • Devs retreat
    • Community complains about lack of communication

    How do you expect humans to respond? Just sit there and take the abuse? It makes no sense! The toxic behavior drowns out the actual useful communication, which in turn adds fuel for the toxic behavior to continue, making things worse.
    Put yourselves in their shoes. How would YOU react to all that venom and rage aimed at YOU? Would you welcome it, just take it, or would you pull back?
    Vitriol and Hate does NOT encourage a positive outcome. Its intimidation. Its "do it MY way or else". And the "or else" tends to be what draws the mods in to close threads. As we mods have said, its ok to express your opinions, however there are lines that should not be crossed. Threats against anyone, Dev or Forumite, is one of those red lines. And we are seeing a dramatic increase in that right now. How is that acceptable as constructive feedback in ANY circumstance?

    I am not going to point fingers or name names; but, it has been said one numerous occasions that there are those at PWE/Cryptic who don't like criticism of any kind. Good or bad.

    In all honesty, the above should be as follows:

    Community complains about lack of communication
    Devs try to communicate
    Respectful opinions and criticism should be embraced (attacks thrown out the window)
    Devs "retreat" to review the feedback
    Devs don't just implement the changes; but, discuss the "respectful" reaction from the community (not just select players or people) and then communicate why these changes are being made.
    If implementation is warranted: this do so under the expectation that is may or may not be well received.
    Communicate back to the community that if another option or a better option presents itself: this can and will be reverted or left in because of named factors.

    In the instance of the Re-Roll Tokens and Admiralty Tokens: I personally don't agree with this change. Correction: I do agree that this could have been an addition as an option and not the absolute. Many of us who do the endeavors do so because we know they do make a difference. However, some of the endeavor tasks can take a while to do. If time is a limiting factor for a player: reroll is their only option. It is not exactly fair to expect a player to use dil they have earned in the game to be used for something that the game was already providing sometimes. By the same token: not all players have the Admiralty Cards necessary to complete "tasks" in the Admiralty System. Again, it is not fair to expect a player to use earned dil to obtain something that the game was already providing.

    As a side note: the above reaction was done so without name calling, threats, or violence. An opinion can be formed, expressed, and given without resorting to being negative. Now, I DO NOT agree with anyone threatening or wishing harm to another person. With that said: this post has words of venom, rage, toxic, and other "colorful" metaphors being used. It is easy to spot when words are conveying what is being talked about. It is not easy to spot them when actions also convey the same thing. Right now: there is a speech that is venomous, raging, toxic, and vitriol being directed at the devs. That is wrong. However, recent decisions enacted by for whatever reason are being viewed by many as venomous, raging, toxic, and vitriol. Neither side is without blame in this. Both sides need to come together from this point going forward to strive to make STO better for ALL: not just for certain players, not just for certain kinds of players, not just for LTS, not just for F2P, not just for the devs, not just for the moderatos, and not just for the CM; but, for EVERYONE EQUALLY. Until there is some sort of mutual respect and understanding given for both sides: this is only going to be worse.

    Mods feel like they are being disrespected and are in some cases.
    Devs feel like they are being disrespected and are in some cases.
    CM feels like he is being disrespected and is in some cases.
    Players feel like they are being disrespected and they are in some cases.

    We all need to calm down. ALL of us. What has happened is regrettable yes. However, that doesn't mean players, devs, mods, and the CM can't work together going forward to make STO better and more enjoyable for everyone.
  • horridpersonhorridperson Member Posts: 659 Arc User
    edited August 2021
    @rattler2

    The act of painting people with the same brush doesn't originate with an idiot behaving like an idiot. That's on the beholder. It's a choice to unilaterally brand a group with the characteristics of the offender.

    It goes hand in hand with, "No naming and shaming" which is in my opinion one of the dumbest conventions of a broad dialogue. It cuts through all of the ambiguity. There's no hiding behind your friends, "teachable moments", or bad feelings caused by, "painting everyone with the same brush".

    There is accountability or in lieu of that the shyster gets called out for their actions even if their are no consequences. If nothing else you have a clear picture of who acts in bad faith.

    Whatever side of the fence all involved are sitting on the communication between devs and the community is a long standing and bumpy ride. Whatever point in the loop anyone wants to depict as the starting point to make their case is irrelevant; It's a loop.

    Being human holds no water because we all suffer from the same condition. If one human gets Mea Culpas for being human then all is forgiven across the board.
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  • botc76botc76 Member Posts: 42 Arc User
    Players: *ask for something via a poll made by the team or from observation made by various players*
    Team: *ignores the results. Makes something completely different.
    Actually, when the dilex first crashed and people started throwing out ideas one of the most common suggestions I saw was the ability to buy endeavor reroll tokens with dilithium. No one asked for the free ones to be removed, but the idea itself is something people DID ask for. This change is proof that they DO in fact listen to us.

    It's good to know that this isn't the Devs fault, but rather the players who suggested this idea, Honestly I going to have to side with the Mods like usual, you guys need to calm the TRIBBLE down, we don't need to make a mountain out of a molehill, please don't make things worse, the Devs didn't do anything wrong and the last thing we need is a Dil Ex Civil War.

    Lol first the Dil Ex Crash and now a Dil Ex Civil War, these Story Arcs literally write themselves, if we replace Dil with Energy Credits in the script this could possibly end up as STO content.

    Point of information: nobody here suggested they simultaneously run yet another sale to completely negate any benefit the new dil sink might have. This is not entirely the players' fault.

    That's just bad timing, you know how it is with schedules and deadlines, they're major pains in the TRIBBLE, but they got to get done.

    Yeah, that excuse is starting to wear really thin. It's not like they don't know when they've got these things scheduled. If they know they've got a sale coming, which they certainly should know would negate any benefits from a self-admitted minor dil sink, they shouldn't have launched the sink right now at all. They ended up with backlash and zero benefit as a result.

    It especially starts to wear thin, once you realize that it is the classical way of so-called free-to-play-MMORPGs to create a problem and then offer a solution that people can purchase with actual money.
    That's the way it's done everywhere, whether Perfect World or Gameforge or whatever.
    The moment those sales happen is NEVER a coincidence, I'd bet real money on that.

    I'm not advocating personal attacks, I'm not excusing going after devs who are at least willing to face players in some form, but come on, don't insult our intelligence, by acting as if not everything in the game is by now designed to draw money out of our pockets. Granted, it could be worse, it could be like in Neverwinter, but it is bad enough.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 3,720 Arc User
    edited August 2021
    rattler2 wrote: »
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    With the typos some of us have lost real life money due to those typos and others typos have caused mass confusion among players. Yet it feels those of us with valid criticism on those style of typos like the people that lost real money are being lumped into the same group as the small number of toxic players. A few typos here and there is acceptable but the current typo situation it well past acceptable and causing problems that need looking at.

    So does that justify personal attacks somehow?
    Of course not but it feels like those of us that have valid criticism are being lumped in with the tiny minority who do personal attacks. While those toxic players are flat out wrong in there actions, the devs are hardly innocent and lot of the trouble going off is the fault of the devs and how badly they have been acting and how badly they have been treating the community.

    This doesn't justify those toxic player attacks but at the same time the devs need to look at there own actions which have played a major part in the current situation. Some of the devs seem to be out of touch with the community and have aggravated the situation with very poor choice of words, poor design moves and poorly thought-out twitter posts. It feels like some devs are blaming the players when they should be looking at there own actions as well. The toxic player attacks need to stop but that is not enough. The devs need to do there part as well.
  • captainrebel78#5049 captainrebel78 Member Posts: 54 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    We all need to calm down. ALL of us. What has happened is regrettable yes. However, that doesn't mean players, devs, mods, and the CM can't work together going forward to make STO better and more enjoyable for everyone.

    At this point...kinda does actually mean we can't work together. They are going into suppression mode which never helps as people are who are frustrated gets MORE frustrated and either quit or go full toxic like some people did already.

    What NORMALLY happens with unpopular releases in a game...people get mad. Forums let people vent other than the EXTREME cases (no the calls for people to be fired are not covered under this...calling for physical harm on people however DOES). People forget about it with the next big update and they vent about whatever they think is wrong with that one...generally different groups of people. If you are CONSTANTLY pissing off the same group of people...you may have a problem with what you are doing with the game. But regardless of that, people vent and than move on. What is going to happen with the increased suppression is people will get more and more angry. They will post while they are more and more angry. Thread will get closed...which leads to more people getting more angry and you basically have the death spiral of a community.

    This can be recovered from. It is just going to take a willingness from both sides.

    *Note to self: Stop sounding so politician like!!! LOL*
  • captainrebel78#5049 captainrebel78 Member Posts: 54 Arc User
    The current CM is not a bad guy. I don't wish bad on anyone. Even with the current CM: things can still get better. Perhaps I am too optimistic for my own good; but, no one is void of another chance.
  • mithinarmithinar Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    I've had time on my hands today so I read the whole thread.

    At this point I can't really add much to either side. I've seen it in other games where I was more vocal on the boards. It always ends in this way. Someone on either side goes over the line which then pushes others over it and things devolve from there. ANd any valid points posted from either side are quickly forgotten and buried under the backlash.

    My post count will prove I just stopped. I read the forums a lot but I just stopped participating because it really doesn't matter.

    There is some mysterious metrics that we as players are not to know that guides all the wonderful decisions that are implemented and we just cannot appreciate it since we cannot see the full picture. If a player suggests something it is looked at by someone and if it is useful they throw it into the metric grinder and see what comes out.

    The anger in this thread comes down to two things from the majority of the posts in this thread:
    1) you took away something and then put in a charge for us to use it going forward.
    2) the continuation of the non stop selling for zen that pretty much negates anything your doing.

    Not withstanding the complaints about the typos in everything that seems to come out. Those are the two main things your company needs to take away from this thread.

    The Dilex is the problem. I have no idea what else you have in the pipeline besides this half baked PR stop gap. Because metrics.

    So I'll let you in on a little metric I came up for myself when the Dilex became pegged 6 or more weeks ago. When it gets to the point that a Dil to Zen Buy order takes 7 days to process. I will stop logging in.

    Last order I placed took slightly more than 4 days to process. I currently have another one that has been sitting out there since Monday evening. Clock is ticking.

    Will anyone really care when (and I say when because nothing happens quick around here) I leave? Not likely except for my Fleet mates. There will be no grand posting of farewell, there will be no finger pointing, no accusations. I will simply stop playing. I'm the customer most companies hate. I just move on when unhappy. I've more than gotten enough enjoyment out of STO for all the money I've put into it since beta. The mistake people make is to think their invested in the game. Right now there is no other Star Trek games so they have to stay and put up with this.

    There have been times where there has been nothing new with Star Trek since it first started for years sometimes. But the fans carried on. Until there was. We carry Star Trek with us. Just like the Star Wars Fans carry that IP with them. Or any IP really that you care about. If you like it you carry it with you.

    I will simply choose to stick to the Trek I carry with me than contribute to what it currently is being used for here. A money sponge that bets you can't beat the habit.

    Well time I moved on to something else to entertain myself with tonight. It certainly isn't STO right now for me.

    Looks at Dilex ---> tick tock tick tock

    Mith
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 4,284 Arc User
    Hey folks, me again.

    This thread is devolving, fast. I'm beggin' ya'll, take a deep breath and think about the things you're typing (both people criticizing and defending us) before you type. This decision has become a flash point for a lot of pent up frustrations for portions of the player base, and believe me, we get that. But coming on a forum to scream at each other helps no one. Deep breaths. Talk like adults.

    A lot of the heat is coming from outside the game I think, from the way the internet has gotten more and more commercialized and it has become common that once free services are increasingly bought out and turned into pay services or stuffed with so many advertisements that they become almost useless in an attempt to harass people into paying for the "premium" service they used to get for free (or with a reasonable amount of ads).

    It has gone on and frustrated and angered people for so long that the slightest hint of it happening anywhere (like the token issue this thread is about) and all that pent up frustration all too often comes roaring out in highly acidic condemnation just like a lot of the comments here, far in excess of what the actual issue at hand really deserves.

    It would have caused far less of an uproar if the loot tables had been adjusted to significantly cut the token disbursement down and the buy option added, though it would have taken some very careful spin in the announcement to ease the players into the idea. That kind of spin isn't easy, but in potentially explosive situations like this it is the perception that is important, not the statistics, because on an issue that grates on long term sore points people don't act in a strictly rational way and sometimes lash out about things that would seem minor from a logical point of view.

    Sure, realistically it will not have a huge impact on many players but it looks like the harbinger of more bad things to come.

    In this case, as many have pointed out some people used the tokens a lot and others hardly used them at all, and that fact could have been used as a selling point for the idea by pointing out that it really would not make much difference to the majority of the players but might help curb the hardcore farming that is hurting the dil exchange. Even if those token drops slowed to a trickle compared to the past most players would have probably done little more than grumble a bit and adjusted their use of them.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 36,960 Arc User
    How do you slow a trickle to a trickle? The tokens were ALREADY nearly as rare as an UR phoenix token.​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,912 Arc User
    edited August 2021
    It's good to know that this isn't the Devs fault, but rather the players who suggested this idea, Honestly I'm going to have to side with the Mods like usual, you guys need to calm the TRIBBLE down, we don't need to make a mountain out of a molehill, please don't make things worse, the Devs didn't do anything wrong and the last thing we need is a Dil Ex Civil War.

    Lol first the Dil Ex Crash and now a Dil Ex Civil War, these Story Arcs literally write themselves, if we replace Dil with Energy Credits in the script this could possibly end up as STO content.

    Sorry, but you simply don't understand the situation.

    We were asked for suggestions on things we would want to spend Dilithium on. We offered those suggestions, things we would want to spend our dilithium on, things that we can be rewarded with for earning that dilithium. We had the idea that if someone runs out of re-roll tokens, let them use some of that dilithium to get more, it was a good idea.

    Here is what Crytpic did with that idea..

    They turned it into a punishment. They took something in game, that was normally available for free through regular game play, they took it away and now they're selling it back to us for dilithium. Do you see why this annoys people? Dilithium sinks should be a reward.. something players want to spend Dilithium on, they created a problem and sold us a solution. They converted a reward into a punishment.

    Meanwhile, there were literally hundreds of other suggestions, ways to reward people for spending dilithium.. all ignored.

    We are mad because our developers just simply don't get it.
    The current CM is not a bad guy. I don't wish bad on anyone. Even with the current CM: things can still get better. Perhaps I am too optimistic for my own good; but, no one is void of another chance.

    We have been trying that approach for years, asking nicely and sadly it has gotten us absolutely nowhere. Does that justify the extreme measures some took in threatening him? Of course not, but it does help to at least understand where they are coming from. They are trying to get Kael to finally listen. The fact that they had to update the rules to make it a violation to ask for a new CM means he at least understands people are upset.

    The next question is, does he care? We'll see, but I'm not optimistic. You're right, he's a good guy.. I wish him well, I just don't think he's found the role with the company that's best suited for him.
    animated.gif
    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,774 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    How do you slow a trickle to a trickle? The tokens were ALREADY nearly as rare as an UR phoenix token.​​

    I think not. I would constantly have to remember to use them because I capped them.

    I was the opposite, I had to be VERY careful with how I spent them or I ran out.
    Lifetime Subscriber since Beta
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  • horridpersonhorridperson Member Posts: 659 Arc User
    edited August 2021
    @somtaawkhar

    Every example you cited to support your case has a desirable reward that comes at a price that a majority of players see as worth that price. Each of these rewards though involving the sacrifice of resources has a clearly defined value. They may not want the investment, but they want the new shiny prize.

    Nobody smiles and reflects on how awesome it would be if something they had is taken away and the taker offers to ransom it back to them. Your analogy falls flat unless the fleet holdings, vanity shields, ad nauseum suddenly vanished from the control of the former owners and was offered back to them for a price. I think there have been whole fleets that have had that experience. Strangely none of the former members were thrilled with the arrangement.
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  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,240 Arc User
    Another thing about those tokens is how they're, in hindsight, mostly pointless for two main reasons:
    -For the Endeavor tokens, since the endeavors reset every day, players can just wait one or a few resets until less annoying objectives show up.
    -For the Admirality tokens, while the list doesn't reset, the queue still progresses whether you succeed or fail an assignment.

    So what I think is more likely to happen to anyone who isn't a whale with more money than common sense is:
    -For Endeavors, ignoring them unless an easy one pops up eventually
    -for Admirality, intentionally botching uninteresting assignments with low-maintenance ships to get to the good stuff
    and just occasionally, buying one or a few tokens when you have really bad luck with the endeavors.

    Because let's face it, would you want to sink your dil on tokens for a random chance of getting a better task, or keep it for guaranteed phoenix boxes and their upgrades, or until the next account-bound visual shield promo drops?
    #TASforSTO
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  • trekfangrrrl#6910 trekfangrrrl Member Posts: 101 Arc User
    edited August 2021
    Dilithium sinks should be a reward.. something players want to spend Dilithium on, they created a problem and sold us a solution. They converted a reward into a punishment.
    Except most things you can spend diltihum on are not something people want to spend diltihum on, they are things people spend dilthium on because not doing so is inconveniencing, or because they are given no other option.
    • People don't want to spend dilthium on fleet holdings or fleet items. They do so because there is no other way to get the, often high tier, items one gets for filling out your fleet holdings.
    • People don't want to spend dilthium on Phoenix Boxes. They do so because many of these prior event rewards can't be obtained anywhere else but there.
    • People don't like spending dilthium on crafting projects. They do so because the normal times to complete crafting projects are long.
    • People don't like spending dilthium on vanity shields. They do so because the only other way to get them is via even more costly, and rare, lockbox drops.
    etc. etc.

    People do not spend dilthium on these things because the "want" to. They spend dilthium on these things because they are forced to in order to get these things. If there was some easy way to do/get all of these things without spending dil people would do it, and save their dil for straight Zen to buy ships.

    Oh god, here we go again with the same nonsense you were spewing on reddit. I encourage everyone here to read how this conversation went:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/pau67n/the_fundamental_problem_borticus_doesnt_get_it/ha78nzb/?context=3

    I'll tell you here like I told you there: you have no idea what you are talking about. All of the examples you mentioned things people actually want and are willing to spend dilithium on. Would people prefer they were free? Of course. But since they aren't free people are still willing to pay the dilithium to get them.

    The entire reason people are worked up about this particular change is because they took something that was previously FREE and are now charging dilithium for it. That situation is completely different from ANY example you listed in your sad attempt to twist reality into a pretezel.

    I'll boil it down to this:
    • you are completely wrong
    • you have no idea what you are talking about
    • your posts are the absolute epitome of sophistry

    Tchao :)
  • solidshark214solidshark214 Member Posts: 288 Arc User
    All of the examples you mentioned things people actually want and are willing to spend dilithium on.
    Are you suggesting people don't want the ability to skip over admiralty projects, or endeavor missions, they don't want, and wouldn't spend diltihum on them if they had to, like the above examples?

    Talking about twisting reality when you can't even remain consistent in your own argument.

    I notice you don't address the point about how the new "sink" is something that used to be free and is now being charged for. Which, BTW, is one of the main points of contention here, if not the single biggest.
  • trekfangrrrl#6910 trekfangrrrl Member Posts: 101 Arc User
    All of the examples you mentioned things people actually want and are willing to spend dilithium on.
    Are you suggesting people don't want the ability to skip over admiralty projects, or endeavor missions, they don't want, and wouldn't spend diltihum on them if they had to, like the above examples?

    Talking about twisting reality when you can't even remain consistent in your own argument.

    You just keep missing the exceedingly simple, glaringly obvious point:

    None of your examples are them taking away things that people already got for free.

    That is the entire point. That is the entire reason people are upset about this. That is the thing you just keep missing.
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