the problem with this idea is that it's ignoring the amount of training required. It requires a lot of training to do effective combat.
General Starfleet personnel do not seem to receive effective combat training.
(They wear standard uniforms into combat zones.../facepalm)
They receive a general all around type of training.
Then they specialize, not unlike how we do today in our current education system.
It is shown repeatedly that when attacked Starfleet first finds itself on its back foot before finding equal standing with the enemy. We see that commanders with even mediocre strategic capabilities are shoved to the front and have to figure things out on the run, leading to horrible losses and defeats before victories start to occur.
We also are shown that there are hand to hand specialist and weapon specialists that offer training to other crew members throughout the show. Many of whom are so beyond helpless in defending themselves it is doubtful they received any prior training in it at all.
Then you have the Tactical Officers and personnel.
These guys are the closest to the Military/Police that we see on screen.
They are typically armed at all times with small arms of some sort.
Have "heavy" weapons training. Increased ship wide presence in Red Alert circumstances.
Knowledge of tactics, enemy strengths and weaknesses, past encounters with various enemies past and present.
But they serve as a part of the whole and are not in control of but subject to and function within the organization for when they are needed. Generally seen as pretty bored.
Umm most of the US Navy and Airforce get rudimentary hand to hand if they get it at all. Hell even US Marines get the basic Tan belt course at bootcamp and only get follow on training and higher belts as the needs of the Corps goes. I spent 7 years as a US Marine and I never rose above the basic tan belt in MCMAP.
So honestly your analogy of "most don't get hand to hand or weapons training" no kidding. Over half the US Military doesn't get hand to hand or weapons training.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
As an army veteran watching Star Trek there is a clear chain of command and rank structure, and talking to my buddy who's a navy veteran, there are a lot of navy terms regarding the ship, officer rank and other stuff I don't remember, but I think it goes to that extent, starfleet has similarities of the military but I don't think it goes further
The punch line is there really are people you can talk to who when you explain that "a pick-up truck generally has four wheels, an engine, an enclosed cab, and a cargo bed" they'll nod agreeably. Then when you show them a vehicle that has four wheels, an engine, an enclosed cab, and a cargo bed they will stamp their feet and tell you "no, that's a bicycle, because my daddy said so."
the problem with this idea is that it's ignoring the amount of training required. It requires a lot of training to do effective combat.
General Starfleet personnel do not seem to receive effective combat training.
(They wear standard uniforms into combat zones.../facepalm)
They receive a general all around type of training.
Then they specialize, not unlike how we do today in our current education system.
It is shown repeatedly that when attacked Starfleet first finds itself on its back foot before finding equal standing with the enemy. We see that commanders with even mediocre strategic capabilities are shoved to the front and have to figure things out on the run, leading to horrible losses and defeats before victories start to occur.
We also are shown that there are hand to hand specialist and weapon specialists that offer training to other crew members throughout the show. Many of whom are so beyond helpless in defending themselves it is doubtful they received any prior training in it at all.
Then you have the Tactical Officers and personnel.
These guys are the closest to the Military/Police that we see on screen.
They are typically armed at all times with small arms of some sort.
Have "heavy" weapons training. Increased ship wide presence in Red Alert circumstances.
Knowledge of tactics, enemy strengths and weaknesses, past encounters with various enemies past and present.
But they serve as a part of the whole and are not in control of but subject to and function within the organization for when they are needed. Generally seen as pretty bored.
I was a bulk fuel specialist in the USMC reserves. After boot camp, I went through Marine Combat Training were I learned the basics of combat before going off to MOS school. Infantry marines instead went to the School of Infantry where they received more advanced and specialized combat training. So, essentially, the military already works the way you just described.
the problem with this idea is that it's ignoring the amount of training required. It requires a lot of training to do effective combat.
General Starfleet personnel do not seem to receive effective combat training.
(They wear standard uniforms into combat zones.../facepalm)
They receive a general all around type of training.
Then they specialize, not unlike how we do today in our current education system.
It is shown repeatedly that when attacked Starfleet first finds itself on its back foot before finding equal standing with the enemy. We see that commanders with even mediocre strategic capabilities are shoved to the front and have to figure things out on the run, leading to horrible losses and defeats before victories start to occur.
We also are shown that there are hand to hand specialist and weapon specialists that offer training to other crew members throughout the show. Many of whom are so beyond helpless in defending themselves it is doubtful they received any prior training in it at all.
Then you have the Tactical Officers and personnel.
These guys are the closest to the Military/Police that we see on screen.
They are typically armed at all times with small arms of some sort.
Have "heavy" weapons training. Increased ship wide presence in Red Alert circumstances.
Knowledge of tactics, enemy strengths and weaknesses, past encounters with various enemies past and present.
But they serve as a part of the whole and are not in control of but subject to and function within the organization for when they are needed. Generally seen as pretty bored.
I was a bulk fuel specialist in the USMC reserves. After boot camp, I went through Marine Combat Training were I learned the basics of combat before going off to MOS school. Infantry marines instead went to the School of Infantry where they received more advanced and specialized combat training. So, essentially, the military already works the way you just described.
SIGINT Marine here myself. Outside of boot camp, and MCT and deployment, I handled my rifle once a month to make sure it was clean, went to the rifle range once a year and then on deployment I had it slung over my back everywhere I went.
But almost never fired it. hand to hand, went through the grey belt training twice but instructor got called away each time for deployment so never finished.
I swear, some of the misconceptions people have of the military is astoundingly bad.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
Its because the original series dates back to the beginnings of the hippy movement and in an effort to pander to that audience the creator (but none of the other writers) thought it would be fun to wallow in the whole "Oooo, military BAD, ook ook." That was the new hipster thing of the time.
And it wasn't until well after the first series was cold and dead the typical TV viewer figured out that maybe taking a dump on the people who choose a life of service ISN'T COOL. Meanwhile the writers - virtually ALL OF THEM - for every single Star Trek series have treated Star Fleet as a platform for telling stories with a distinctly military slant. There have been excellent, even OUTSTANDING episodes where are pure clashes of ideas and morals... but most of the time the fighting devolves to plain old high energy weapons fire and the drama revolves around conflicts between peculiar situations/personal beliefs and the rigid dogma & regulations that most civilians THINK is how the military works.
Maybe my own experience with the military is just strange - because in almost every case I was the lowest ranking person at the table when grand strategic decisions were being made and in 90%+ of those occasions if I had a strong opinion about how the problem should be tackled, my plan is what got turned into orders. Because good commanders go with the most sensible plan they're given no matter who originally said it. And if I didn't have an opinion it was because 'the regs' usually described a perfectly valid strategy for getting the job done or one of my peers had already solved the problem satisfactorily.
The punch line is there really are people you can talk to who when you explain that "a pick-up truck generally has four wheels, an engine, an enclosed cab, and a cargo bed" they'll nod agreeably. Then when you show them a vehicle that has four wheels, an engine, an enclosed cab, and a cargo bed they will stamp their feet and tell you "no, that's a bicycle, because my daddy said so."
I guess.
It just seems like this thread is part of some running joke that nobody's in on.
Like, the OP has provided several comprehensively researched posts that demonstrate, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that starfleet is the federation's military.
Which isnt hard to do, since its self evident common knowledge to begin with.
And then there are the other ones, who disagree, for reasons passing understanding. Is it a performance? Is this some running joke from the game that's spilled over into the forums? I don't get it.
What is the point of not believing starfleet is the federation's military? It doesnt make any sense.
It makes perfect sense, as established in canon and explained by myself and many others who seem to have their posts ignored entirely and shouted over by people who just say the same things over and over.
Answer me, what is the JDF? Did you even read that post? Go ahead and classify them for me, because by law and their own statements they are not a military but instead an extension of the police force. But if they are attacked, they function like a military in a defensive only role. Sound familiar? But go ahead and tell a member of the JDF they are military. Tell the Japanese people they have a military. They will tell you you're wrong.
And the only reason that is, the treaty they were forced to sign. Though the Japanese does have a navy, and try to tell them they are not sailors. I dare ya.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
There is no universe where the JDF isn't a military organization, because once again they are their nation's instrument of war. One which works hand in hand with the US military forces in the region I might add. Training for war on behalf of the state is the fundamental, defining characteristic of militaries and once again no amount of whitewashing changes that fact.
Japan wasn't sending "cops" to the middle east when they joined the coalition forces. A fact that gave their people a whole lot to think about at the time.
Umm most of the US Navy and Airforce get rudimentary hand to hand if they get it at all. Hell even US Marines get the basic Tan belt course at bootcamp and only get follow on training and higher belts as the needs of the Corps goes. I spent 7 years as a US Marine and I never rose above the basic tan belt in MCMAP.
So honestly your analogy of "most don't get hand to hand or weapons training" no kidding. Over half the US Military doesn't get hand to hand or weapons training.
I was addressing the post from markhawkman about needing a lot of training to be effective in combat that seemed, imo, to be of the belief that they are all superbly trained combat veterans by the time the leave the academy.
And your comments towards darthmeow504 about the JSDF describe perfectly the thought that the rest of you seem unwilling to divorce the idea of Military from what Starfleet is.
You have a real world example that draws near to what Starfleet is and yet you claim that even though it is called the JSDF and is not a Military. You still call it a Military.
Starfleet is not the Military.
Onscreen commentary and evidence backs this. Yes, it also backs the appearance of a Military, that has been acknowledged.
But canon is canon, and the ideals behind the entire IP stand behind Starfleet being the Scientific and Exploration arm of the Federation that also encompasses defensive directives when called upon.
There is no disrespect towards the Military from any of us here. And I don't think that the show intends any either.
There is nothing wrong with the thought of society growing out of the need of a Military. That'd be great wouldn't it?
There is no universe where the JDF isn't a military organization, because once again they are their nation's instrument of war. One which works hand in hand with the US military forces in the region I might add. Training for war on behalf of the state is the fundamental, defining characteristic of militaries and once again no amount of whitewashing changes that fact.
Japan wasn't sending "cops" to the middle east when they joined the coalition forces. A fact that gave their people a whole lot to think about at the time.
You mean the one that had them rewriting the article to allow them to legally deploy troops?
Despite heavy opposition in the DIET to the new law.
The one that had 69% or more, of the populace against it?
The one where the JSDF contingent was not allowed to engage the enemy UNLESS fired upon first?
The JIRSG with tasks such as water purification, reconstruction and reestablishment of public facilities for the Iraqi people?
Weird.
So the nation is against it because it violates the image of the JSDF and many other things(politics).
And even once they are deployed, they are basically a non aggressive support group with permission to fire only once fired upon.
So even the Japanese themselves don't view it as a Military, but hey. You are entitled to your own opinion.
There is no disrespect towards the Military from any of us here. And I don't think that the show intends any either.
There is nothing wrong with the thought of society growing out of the need of a Military. That'd be great wouldn't it?
And there it is - the disrespect that's not disrespect because we painted it blue. No, it wouldn't "be great". Its not something we need to 'grow out of' some like bad phase. There's a very simple truism you might find helpful - Those that beat their swords into plowshares will farm for those who don't.
The idea of not killing each otheris great and NO ONE arguing that Star Fleet is a military is saying it's an offensive force. I PROMISE the vast majority of people in every military don't look forward to having to kill other people. But 'growing out of a need for a military' in a setting that is CRAWLING with hostile powers doesn't even measure up to 'fairy tale' in terms of plausibility within the setting itself. If they'd wanted Star Fleet to not be a military, maybe they shouldn't tell stories that hinge on near constant threat of war?
Umm most of the US Navy and Airforce get rudimentary hand to hand if they get it at all. Hell even US Marines get the basic Tan belt course at bootcamp and only get follow on training and higher belts as the needs of the Corps goes. I spent 7 years as a US Marine and I never rose above the basic tan belt in MCMAP.
So honestly your analogy of "most don't get hand to hand or weapons training" no kidding. Over half the US Military doesn't get hand to hand or weapons training.
I was addressing the post from markhawkman about needing a lot of training to be effective in combat that seemed, imo, to be of the belief that they are all superbly trained combat veterans by the time the leave the academy.
And your comments towards darthmeow504 about the JSDF describe perfectly the thought that the rest of you seem unwilling to divorce the idea of Military from what Starfleet is.
You have a real world example that draws near to what Starfleet is and yet you claim that even though it is called the JSDF and is not a Military. You still call it a Military.
Starfleet is not the Military.
Onscreen commentary and evidence backs this. Yes, it also backs the appearance of a Military, that has been acknowledged.
But canon is canon, and the ideals behind the entire IP stand behind Starfleet being the Scientific and Exploration arm of the Federation that also encompasses defensive directives when called upon.
There is no disrespect towards the Military from any of us here. And I don't think that the show intends any either.
There is nothing wrong with the thought of society growing out of the need of a Military. That'd be great wouldn't it?
No society could ever grow out of the need of a military, because there will always be those who wish you harm no matter how hard you try for peace. The only thing that could potentially unite humanity would be making first contact with an alien race, but that wouldn't diminish the need for a military in the slightest because, assuming there is intelligent life out there, somewhere there would be something all too eager to either destroy or enslave humanity, and without a military we wouldn't stand a chance.
You mean the one that had them rewriting the article to allow them to legally deploy troops?
Despite heavy opposition in the DIET to the new law.
The one that had 69% or more, of the populace against it?
The one where the JSDF contingent was not allowed to engage the enemy UNLESS fired upon first?
The JIRSG with tasks such as water purification, reconstruction and reestablishment of public facilities for the Iraqi people?
Weird.
So the nation is against it because it violates the image of the JSDF and many other things(politics).
And even once they are deployed, they are basically a non aggressive support group with permission to fire only once fired upon.
So even the Japanese themselves don't view it as a Military, but hey. You are entitled to your own opinion.
The Japanese civilians - pretty much as divorced from a day-to-day understanding their own defenders as US civilians are - discovered that not only did they have a military, but they'd always had a military and boo hoo they weren't gonna get to just sit under the umbrella of the US military but were actually gonna have to foot some of the bill when the larger body went to war. Lo and behold the changes were made despite all that popular opposition and harsh reality carried the day then too.
Ideal. Reality. Not the same here or in the Federation.
Umm most of the US Navy and Airforce get rudimentary hand to hand if they get it at all. Hell even US Marines get the basic Tan belt course at bootcamp and only get follow on training and higher belts as the needs of the Corps goes. I spent 7 years as a US Marine and I never rose above the basic tan belt in MCMAP.
So honestly your analogy of "most don't get hand to hand or weapons training" no kidding. Over half the US Military doesn't get hand to hand or weapons training.
I was addressing the post from markhawkman about needing a lot of training to be effective in combat that seemed, imo, to be of the belief that they are all superbly trained combat veterans by the time the leave the academy.
And your comments towards darthmeow504 about the JSDF describe perfectly the thought that the rest of you seem unwilling to divorce the idea of Military from what Starfleet is.
You have a real world example that draws near to what Starfleet is and yet you claim that even though it is called the JSDF and is not a Military. You still call it a Military.
Starfleet is not the Military.
Onscreen commentary and evidence backs this. Yes, it also backs the appearance of a Military, that has been acknowledged.
But canon is canon, and the ideals behind the entire IP stand behind Starfleet being the Scientific and Exploration arm of the Federation that also encompasses defensive directives when called upon.
There is no disrespect towards the Military from any of us here. And I don't think that the show intends any either.
There is nothing wrong with the thought of society growing out of the need of a Military. That'd be great wouldn't it?
Because they still deploy, do combat missions, and infact once they found out they had one, like was stated changes were made and guess what, military they are.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
As for "combat readiness" - again, USAF in the mid-'80s. I had to qualify with an M-16 (chambered down to .22 from .223, and prone to jamming) on one day of basic training, and never touched a weapon again. Also had absolutely no training in hand-to-hand combat - I was a computer programmer, the hardest thing I was expected to hit was how to convert FORTRAN-77 into COBOL-82. If my unit had ever had to fight, we'd have been doing it from underground, and twelve thousand miles away - although our plan included dashing to the top of the Mole Hole in order to get the best tan ever for about a thousandth of a second.
Hell, in Global Goat-Rope - er, I mean Global Shield, we only played for about half the first day, because HQ SAC (now HQ USSTRATCOM) was assumed to be a first-strike target. We were always eliminated immediately, and got to go back to our routine. (Poor guys serving aboard NEACP had to stick it out for the whole thing, airborne refuelings and all...)
And yet, despite all this, and despite a fairly casual attitude around our office (Capt. Johnson even loaned me his pickup truck when I needed to go take my driver's test after work!), we were indeed a military unit, with at least an approximation of military demeanor (well, we didn't have to stand unless the officer entering the room was at least a one-star - if we'd had to stand every time a bird colonel came in, we never would have sat down!). And I say this as someone whose highest rank was Senior Airman...
There is no universe where the JDF isn't a military organization, because once again they are their nation's instrument of war. One which works hand in hand with the US military forces in the region I might add. Training for war on behalf of the state is the fundamental, defining characteristic of militaries and once again no amount of whitewashing changes that fact.
Japan wasn't sending "cops" to the middle east when they joined the coalition forces. A fact that gave their people a whole lot to think about at the time.
You mean the one that had them rewriting the article to allow them to legally deploy troops?
Despite heavy opposition in the DIET to the new law.
The one that had 69% or more, of the populace against it?
The one where the JSDF contingent was not allowed to engage the enemy UNLESS fired upon first?
The JIRSG with tasks such as water purification, reconstruction and reestablishment of public facilities for the Iraqi people?
Weird.
So the nation is against it because it violates the image of the JSDF and many other things(politics).
And even once they are deployed, they are basically a non aggressive support group with permission to fire only once fired upon.
So even the Japanese themselves don't view it as a Military, but hey. You are entitled to your own opinion.
Actually, it's derived from one of the treaty stipulations at the end of WW2. The Allies forced Hirohito to forswear using the Japanese military to attack targets outside Japan, and that any wars fought had to be in defense. Fun fact; Hirohito remained as Emperor until his death in 1989.
BY LAW, the JDF is NOT a military and is constrained in ways that other militaries around the world are not. For one very large example, they are forbidden from offensive action of any sort. They do not call themselves a military, and legally the force is an extension of the police. You might find that strange or even outrageous, but that's the fact. The JDF is not a traditional military as defined elsewhere in the world.
Starfleet is also by law not a military force and what military duties it has are as an extension of a NASA like space exploration group. They are also prohibited from offensive action. They are, in their own words, not a military.
These are FACTS, not opinions. Get your head out of your ****.
I met several of them in Kuwait. That group was REALLY good at soccer. Seriously... one of them had a neat trick where he'd spin kick the ball when it dropped out of the air.
But yeah... you don't send your police to other continents to assist with military actions, not even defensive ones like manning an installation.
BY LAW, the JDF is NOT a military and is constrained in ways that other militaries around the world are not. For one very large example, they are forbidden from offensive action of any sort.
Do you even hear yourself? If they aren't a military then WHY WOULD THEY NEED A RESTRICTION AGAINST TAKING OFFENSIVE ACTION? Oh, because this so-called "police force" has tanks, jet fighters, attack submarines and naval destroyers.
Man, that coat of blue paint is just amazing. If I painted a duck blue with that magic pigment, what would you call it? An ostrich?
Oh, that's easy. The unknown is scary and most people know SQUAT about non-fictional militaries. But the movies seem pretty certain they're dens of warmongers, hawks, and dangerous lunatics who are all to the last pair of boots on the ground a pack of trained killers.
Unless it's Memorial Day weekend. Then they're ok for 72 hours, but we still don't know a damn thing about what they do the other 362 days a year. Probably up to no good though.
And definitely something any advanced civilizations should aspire to 'grow out of', because life on Earth has taught us that the entire universe is likely composed of fluffy pillows and no one would ever want to take things by force or impose their will upon another at the point of a gun so we should obviously just disarm en mass.
(I mean that Admiral Marcus. It'd take a case of total clinical paranoia to worry that Klingons might actually, you know, attack. That'd be unheard of. You should definitely not take any sort of action to prepare for that! Total bad guy material from top to bottom, right? Because dammit, Star Fleet should have no role the Federation's defense. I mean, why do we even put torpedo tubes on our ships in the first place?!)
The vibe I'm getting from the "not a military group" is that it's ok for a branch of the Federation to arm to the teeth for war, perform military operations, perform espionage against other factions, become involved in territorial disputes, simply flat out go to war, and all of this be exclusive properties to Starfleet within the Federation as there is no alternative group to perform these tasks- so long as we don't call it a military or navy. Perform all the functions a military would, but not call it a military.
I mean if you really believe this because someone told you so, despite all the evidence to the contrary, then what else in the world would you believe because someone told you? That there were WMDs in Iraq?
By definition, of course it's a military- an armed branch designed to defend the Federation. It was built for defense (this just can not be argued at this point), but also allows them to pursue their explorative, diplomatic and scientific roles as well.
Lets have over a quarter million active duty personnel. Another 50 thousand trained reservists. Tanks, jet fighters, destroyers, and even submarines. Organized into armies, under the command of a 4-star general. And right here in this forum we have people saying "oh, they're not a military because A POLITICIAN TOLD ME SO."
Its not the staggering lapse of critical thinking skills that frightens me. It's the fact those people can vote...
Comments
Umm most of the US Navy and Airforce get rudimentary hand to hand if they get it at all. Hell even US Marines get the basic Tan belt course at bootcamp and only get follow on training and higher belts as the needs of the Corps goes. I spent 7 years as a US Marine and I never rose above the basic tan belt in MCMAP.
So honestly your analogy of "most don't get hand to hand or weapons training" no kidding. Over half the US Military doesn't get hand to hand or weapons training.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
The punch line is there really are people you can talk to who when you explain that "a pick-up truck generally has four wheels, an engine, an enclosed cab, and a cargo bed" they'll nod agreeably. Then when you show them a vehicle that has four wheels, an engine, an enclosed cab, and a cargo bed they will stamp their feet and tell you "no, that's a bicycle, because my daddy said so."
I was a bulk fuel specialist in the USMC reserves. After boot camp, I went through Marine Combat Training were I learned the basics of combat before going off to MOS school. Infantry marines instead went to the School of Infantry where they received more advanced and specialized combat training. So, essentially, the military already works the way you just described.
SIGINT Marine here myself. Outside of boot camp, and MCT and deployment, I handled my rifle once a month to make sure it was clean, went to the rifle range once a year and then on deployment I had it slung over my back everywhere I went.
But almost never fired it. hand to hand, went through the grey belt training twice but instructor got called away each time for deployment so never finished.
I swear, some of the misconceptions people have of the military is astoundingly bad.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
And it wasn't until well after the first series was cold and dead the typical TV viewer figured out that maybe taking a dump on the people who choose a life of service ISN'T COOL. Meanwhile the writers - virtually ALL OF THEM - for every single Star Trek series have treated Star Fleet as a platform for telling stories with a distinctly military slant. There have been excellent, even OUTSTANDING episodes where are pure clashes of ideas and morals... but most of the time the fighting devolves to plain old high energy weapons fire and the drama revolves around conflicts between peculiar situations/personal beliefs and the rigid dogma & regulations that most civilians THINK is how the military works.
Maybe my own experience with the military is just strange - because in almost every case I was the lowest ranking person at the table when grand strategic decisions were being made and in 90%+ of those occasions if I had a strong opinion about how the problem should be tackled, my plan is what got turned into orders. Because good commanders go with the most sensible plan they're given no matter who originally said it. And if I didn't have an opinion it was because 'the regs' usually described a perfectly valid strategy for getting the job done or one of my peers had already solved the problem satisfactorily.
And the only reason that is, the treaty they were forced to sign. Though the Japanese does have a navy, and try to tell them they are not sailors. I dare ya.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Japan wasn't sending "cops" to the middle east when they joined the coalition forces. A fact that gave their people a whole lot to think about at the time.
I was addressing the post from markhawkman about needing a lot of training to be effective in combat that seemed, imo, to be of the belief that they are all superbly trained combat veterans by the time the leave the academy.
And your comments towards darthmeow504 about the JSDF describe perfectly the thought that the rest of you seem unwilling to divorce the idea of Military from what Starfleet is.
You have a real world example that draws near to what Starfleet is and yet you claim that even though it is called the JSDF and is not a Military. You still call it a Military.
Starfleet is not the Military.
Onscreen commentary and evidence backs this. Yes, it also backs the appearance of a Military, that has been acknowledged.
But canon is canon, and the ideals behind the entire IP stand behind Starfleet being the Scientific and Exploration arm of the Federation that also encompasses defensive directives when called upon.
There is no disrespect towards the Military from any of us here. And I don't think that the show intends any either.
There is nothing wrong with the thought of society growing out of the need of a Military. That'd be great wouldn't it?
You mean the one that had them rewriting the article to allow them to legally deploy troops?
Despite heavy opposition in the DIET to the new law.
The one that had 69% or more, of the populace against it?
The one where the JSDF contingent was not allowed to engage the enemy UNLESS fired upon first?
The JIRSG with tasks such as water purification, reconstruction and reestablishment of public facilities for the Iraqi people?
Weird.
So the nation is against it because it violates the image of the JSDF and many other things(politics).
And even once they are deployed, they are basically a non aggressive support group with permission to fire only once fired upon.
So even the Japanese themselves don't view it as a Military, but hey. You are entitled to your own opinion.
And there it is - the disrespect that's not disrespect because we painted it blue. No, it wouldn't "be great". Its not something we need to 'grow out of' some like bad phase. There's a very simple truism you might find helpful - Those that beat their swords into plowshares will farm for those who don't.
The idea of not killing each other is great and NO ONE arguing that Star Fleet is a military is saying it's an offensive force. I PROMISE the vast majority of people in every military don't look forward to having to kill other people. But 'growing out of a need for a military' in a setting that is CRAWLING with hostile powers doesn't even measure up to 'fairy tale' in terms of plausibility within the setting itself. If they'd wanted Star Fleet to not be a military, maybe they shouldn't tell stories that hinge on near constant threat of war?
No society could ever grow out of the need of a military, because there will always be those who wish you harm no matter how hard you try for peace. The only thing that could potentially unite humanity would be making first contact with an alien race, but that wouldn't diminish the need for a military in the slightest because, assuming there is intelligent life out there, somewhere there would be something all too eager to either destroy or enslave humanity, and without a military we wouldn't stand a chance.
The Japanese civilians - pretty much as divorced from a day-to-day understanding their own defenders as US civilians are - discovered that not only did they have a military, but they'd always had a military and boo hoo they weren't gonna get to just sit under the umbrella of the US military but were actually gonna have to foot some of the bill when the larger body went to war. Lo and behold the changes were made despite all that popular opposition and harsh reality carried the day then too.
Ideal. Reality. Not the same here or in the Federation.
Because they still deploy, do combat missions, and infact once they found out they had one, like was stated changes were made and guess what, military they are.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Hell, in Global Goat-Rope - er, I mean Global Shield, we only played for about half the first day, because HQ SAC (now HQ USSTRATCOM) was assumed to be a first-strike target. We were always eliminated immediately, and got to go back to our routine. (Poor guys serving aboard NEACP had to stick it out for the whole thing, airborne refuelings and all...)
And yet, despite all this, and despite a fairly casual attitude around our office (Capt. Johnson even loaned me his pickup truck when I needed to go take my driver's test after work!), we were indeed a military unit, with at least an approximation of military demeanor (well, we didn't have to stand unless the officer entering the room was at least a one-star - if we'd had to stand every time a bird colonel came in, we never would have sat down!). And I say this as someone whose highest rank was Senior Airman...
If you want to read it: http://taiwandocuments.org/sanfrancisco01.htm
My character Tsin'xing
But yeah... you don't send your police to other continents to assist with military actions, not even defensive ones like manning an installation.
My character Tsin'xing
Do you even hear yourself? If they aren't a military then WHY WOULD THEY NEED A RESTRICTION AGAINST TAKING OFFENSIVE ACTION? Oh, because this so-called "police force" has tanks, jet fighters, attack submarines and naval destroyers.
Man, that coat of blue paint is just amazing. If I painted a duck blue with that magic pigment, what would you call it? An ostrich?
Unless it's Memorial Day weekend. Then they're ok for 72 hours, but we still don't know a damn thing about what they do the other 362 days a year. Probably up to no good though.
And definitely something any advanced civilizations should aspire to 'grow out of', because life on Earth has taught us that the entire universe is likely composed of fluffy pillows and no one would ever want to take things by force or impose their will upon another at the point of a gun so we should obviously just disarm en mass.
(I mean that Admiral Marcus. It'd take a case of total clinical paranoia to worry that Klingons might actually, you know, attack. That'd be unheard of. You should definitely not take any sort of action to prepare for that! Total bad guy material from top to bottom, right? Because dammit, Star Fleet should have no role the Federation's defense. I mean, why do we even put torpedo tubes on our ships in the first place?!)
I mean if you really believe this because someone told you so, despite all the evidence to the contrary, then what else in the world would you believe because someone told you? That there were WMDs in Iraq?
By definition, of course it's a military- an armed branch designed to defend the Federation. It was built for defense (this just can not be argued at this point), but also allows them to pursue their explorative, diplomatic and scientific roles as well.
Lets have over a quarter million active duty personnel. Another 50 thousand trained reservists. Tanks, jet fighters, destroyers, and even submarines. Organized into armies, under the command of a 4-star general. And right here in this forum we have people saying "oh, they're not a military because A POLITICIAN TOLD ME SO."
Its not the staggering lapse of critical thinking skills that frightens me. It's the fact those people can vote...