When you are your nation's instrument of war, offensively or defensively - you're the military. FULL STOP. Your organization may be other things in addition to that, but that's what a military IS, and that's absolutely among the roles Star Fleet plays for its parent state. No amount of wishing (or protesting) makes it otherwise and regardless of the Great Bird's intentions, countless other authors who have helped steer the brand have adopted military functions into Star Fleet wholesale, from patrolling the nation's borders to having characters face court MARTIAL for their disobedience of regulation or command, to making verbal distinctions between Star Fleet members and civilians.
If the writers really want it to not be the Federation military, they need to stop cloaking it in military symbolism, structure, and storytelling at every turn and give the Federation SOMEONE ELSE to do those nasty brutish jobs that keep the Federation from being obliterated that are just too primitive and violent for those Star Fleet types to be bothered with.
If you ever wonder how Section 31 metamorphosed from all but moustache-twirling villains to somewhat sympathetic workhorses who end up having to do the dirty so the Federation doesn't get stomped out of existence, its because those high-minded captains and crews sitting on top of potentially continent-leveling mobile arsenals seem so put out that they might have to actually do their damn job when diplomacy fails. The setting has simply been around too long and introduced too many threats for ANYONE to believe in the Federation's inherent right to exist through the power of love, pixy dust, and a benevolent galaxy.
Gene Roddenberry was very adamant that the Starfleet was not a military or a militaristic operation "I thought it was at least as militaristic as, say, the Coast Guard." - Nicholas Meyer Memory Alpha
In "Peak Performance", Captain Picard states, "Starfleet is not a military organization, its purpose is exploration."
Nichelle Nichols: In her book Beyond Uhura (hardcover ed., p. 248), she stated, "Portraying Starfleet as a military organization flew in the face of everything Star Trek stood for [....] At one point I forcefully but tactfully reminded Meyer and Harve [Bennet] that Starfleet was the philosophical descendant of NASA, not the Air Force. - Memory Alpha
Those three are good enough for me, Coast Guard is probably the closest comparison. Remember that if Starfleet and the UFP were real it's almost certain that we wouldn't be in the constant battles and fights for survival depicted in the shows and STO, that aspect of it is simply to make the whole scenario more entertaining and exciting. A show about pure exploration or diplomacy with no tension or action would not last long, neither would STO.
What you call 'good enough' is actually the people on the scene recognizing the battle was lost before they even got out of the first season. Star Trek, despite its noble intentions, was absorbing military themes and behavior almost immediately.
There's nothing wrong with a sci-fi series about a futuristic exploratory and diplomatic service - but Star Trek ain't it and hasn't been it almost from the word 'go'. Because the storytellers keep wanting to have conflicts that are advanced and often ultimately resolved by the application of naked force.
Gene Roddenberry was very adamant that the Starfleet was not a military or a militaristic operation "I thought it was at least as militaristic as, say, the Coast Guard." - Nicholas Meyer Memory Alpha
In "Peak Performance", Captain Picard states, "Starfleet is not a military organization, its purpose is exploration."
Nichelle Nichols: In her book Beyond Uhura (hardcover ed., p. 248), she stated, "Portraying Starfleet as a military organization flew in the face of everything Star Trek stood for [....] At one point I forcefully but tactfully reminded Meyer and Harve [Bennet] that Starfleet was the philosophical descendant of NASA, not the Air Force. - Memory Alpha
Those three are good enough for me, Coast Guard is probably the closest comparison. Remember that if Starfleet and the UFP were real it's almost certain that we wouldn't be in the constant battles and fights for survival depicted in the shows and STO, that aspect of it is simply to make the whole scenario more entertaining and exciting. A show about pure exploration or diplomacy with no tension or action would not last long, neither would STO.
What you call 'good enough' is actually the people on the scene recognizing the battle was lost before they even got out of the first season. Star Trek, despite its noble intentions, was absorbing military themes and behavior almost immediately.
There's nothing wrong with a sci-fi series about a futuristic exploratory and diplomatic service - but Star Trek ain't it and hasn't been it almost from the word 'go'. Because the storytellers keep wanting to have conflicts that are advanced and often ultimately resolved by the application of naked force.
No, what I call "good enough" is what the creator of the whole franchise has stated, the bottom line is that Gene's opinion is more important than yours, mine or anyone else's and his words were it is not a military operation, period.
And guess what, regardless of what he wanted, it grew beyond him. It happens. Gene simply couldn't deal with it.
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It's defense and militarisation born of necessity, as although the Federation seeks peace and enlightenment, they are wise enough to realise not everyone shares this philosophy, so must have a miltary capable of defending themselves.
It is and they're not morons. But it doesn'T change the fact that this service is not a military orgaisation, sometimes I think people assume I or other make this up but it is written in the source material. As such, to characterise Starfleet, "not a military" is the base assumption necessary to do so. From there on nobody denies they perform military tasks but what is said in canon is still said in canon. Literally nothing but a ew canon source retconning these numerous statements out of existence will change that.
Gene Roddenberry was very adamant that the Starfleet was not a military or a militaristic operation "I thought it was at least as militaristic as, say, the Coast Guard." - Nicholas Meyer Memory Alpha
In "Peak Performance", Captain Picard states, "Starfleet is not a military organization, its purpose is exploration."
Nichelle Nichols: In her book Beyond Uhura (hardcover ed., p. 248), she stated, "Portraying Starfleet as a military organization flew in the face of everything Star Trek stood for [....] At one point I forcefully but tactfully reminded Meyer and Harve [Bennet] that Starfleet was the philosophical descendant of NASA, not the Air Force. - Memory Alpha
Those three are good enough for me, Coast Guard is probably the closest comparison. Remember that if Starfleet and the UFP were real it's almost certain that we wouldn't be in the constant battles and fights for survival depicted in the shows and STO, that aspect of it is simply to make the whole scenario more entertaining and exciting. A show about pure exploration or diplomacy with no tension or action would not last long, neither would STO.
What you call 'good enough' is actually the people on the scene recognizing the battle was lost before they even got out of the first season. Star Trek, despite its noble intentions, was absorbing military themes and behavior almost immediately.
There's nothing wrong with a sci-fi series about a futuristic exploratory and diplomatic service - but Star Trek ain't it and hasn't been it almost from the word 'go'. Because the storytellers keep wanting to have conflicts that are advanced and often ultimately resolved by the application of naked force.
No, what I call "good enough" is what the creator of the whole franchise has stated, the bottom line is that Gene's opinion is more important than yours, mine or anyone else's and his words were it is not a military operation, period.
Characters have said Starfleet is not military. Writers have said Starfleet is not military. However, this contradicts literally every single thing Starfleet is ever depicted doing, because everything about what they do and how they operate, from R&D to exploration to defense, makes them a military organisation. These statements everyone keeps quoting can only be one of two things; either overly idealistic characters, or delusional writers who have no idea what their talking about and suffer from the misguided belief that militaries are bad. I could say the Baltimore Orioles are not a baseball team, or that my silver car is blue, or that my dog is not a mutt, hell I could even believe those things with all my heart, but it would not make it true.
Here's a question, if none of those statements were ever made, would you still say Starfleet is not military?
Gene Roddenberry was very adamant that the Starfleet was not a military or a militaristic operation "I thought it was at least as militaristic as, say, the Coast Guard." - Nicholas Meyer Memory Alpha
In "Peak Performance", Captain Picard states, "Starfleet is not a military organization, its purpose is exploration."
Nichelle Nichols: In her book Beyond Uhura (hardcover ed., p. 248), she stated, "Portraying Starfleet as a military organization flew in the face of everything Star Trek stood for [....] At one point I forcefully but tactfully reminded Meyer and Harve [Bennet] that Starfleet was the philosophical descendant of NASA, not the Air Force. - Memory Alpha
Those three are good enough for me, Coast Guard is probably the closest comparison. Remember that if Starfleet and the UFP were real it's almost certain that we wouldn't be in the constant battles and fights for survival depicted in the shows and STO, that aspect of it is simply to make the whole scenario more entertaining and exciting. A show about pure exploration or diplomacy with no tension or action would not last long, neither would STO.
The US Coast Guard IS a full blown branch of the military, and service members in this branch can, and have, been deployed overseas during times of war. And before anyone says not every country is like that, Star Trek is an american made show created by an American, so it's probable he would have drawn inspiration from the American version.
Starfleet is not military per se, however it mimics and employs military conventions when the need arises. The Starship Enterprise always was and is a ship of exploration, how many naval vessels today are ships of exploration? The fact that the ship has incredibly powerful weapons is simply based on experience that not all cultures we encounter will feel the same way and we need to be able to defend ourselves, we saw what happened when the NX-01 left the safety of Earth Orbit, eventually they admitted they needed far superior weaponry. But this is no different to an explorer on Earth heading into Africa for the first time, they were armed for self defence, Starfleet's prime role is to seek out new life and new civilisations and no matter how it may look to you Starfleet never has been and never will be a military organisation. Don't mistake necessity for intention.
The intent to explore does not make it any less of a military, and a ship with enough firepower to glass every city on a planet is not a ship of exploration, the Enterprise was a warship on a mission of exploration.
It's defense and militarisation born of necessity, as although the Federation seeks peace and enlightenment, they are wise enough to realise not everyone shares this philosophy, so must have a miltary capable of defending themselves.
It is and they're not morons. But it doesn'T change the fact that this service is not a military orgaisation, sometimes I think people assume I or other make this up but it is written in the source material. As such, to characterise Starfleet, "not a military" is the base assumption necessary to do so. From there on nobody denies they perform military tasks but what is said in canon is still said in canon. Literally nothing but a ew canon source retconning these numerous statements out of existence will change that.
I'm not sure what to say then.
Military is just a word to me, and if something performs the role of a military then it must be so. "A rose by any other name, is still a rose.", so to speak- if Starfleet is designed to defend the Federation, regardless of it's other functions, then it is still the Federation's military.
If Picard (and the writers) were attempting to create a dilineation between what a military is, and Starfleet, then much more information was needed to make this more than a "because I said so".
This^ It IS the Federation military in practice regfardless of any other considerations.
This^ It IS the Federation military in practice regfardless of any other considerations.
Thatvis however a different statement from "Starfleet is a military organisation". People need to define beforehand what they want to say. Nikei and mark and others claim it's a military organisation and provide definitions and comparisons between SFs tasks and real life militaries. Their line of argumentation is objectively wrong and their conclusion is false. Saying Starfleet acts as the UFPs military is however true.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
No, what I call "good enough" is what the creator of the whole franchise has stated, the bottom line is that Gene's opinion is more important than yours, mine or anyone else's and his words were it is not a military operation, period.
Actually Gene wanted ToS and the movies stricken from the canon and season three of TNG was to have Wesley take command of the Enterprise. He was kicked upstairs because his initial concept was good. And his fleshing it out was not.
I am not saying every cast and crew needs to salute and swear by the UCMJ. But the issue is the 'not military' comes from Vietnam era distrust of the military and seeing it as an evil unto itself. Often they tried to hard in TNG to be not-military. They put a security/tactical officer on the bridge. Ask him his opinion of a situation then deride him for wanting anything as simple as raising shields. Later when the not-military theme was effectively dropped, this became s.o.p.
So it is a matter of when and what writer said what. We can't pull one item down and use it as the only evidence one way or another.
Does Starfleet act as the Federations soldier? Yes.
Do they want to be? General rule, no. (Individuality does still occur.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
This^ It IS the Federation military in practice regfardless of any other considerations.
Thatvis however a different statement from "Starfleet is a military organisation". People need to define beforehand what they want to say. Nikei and mark and others claim it's a military organisation and provide definitions and comparisons between SFs tasks and real life militaries. Their line of argumentation is objectively wrong and their conclusion is false. Saying Starfleet acts as the UFPs military is however true.
Mention one thing that shows Starfleet is not a military, please. Someone simply saying it does not make it true. They operate exactly like a military organization, they do everything a military organization does, and they do not do anything a modern military would not do.
"Starfleet is not a military organization" is simply a false statement borne of poor writing and is, quite frankly, very insulting to anyone who has and will serve in the military.
You know I'd like all of you saying "Starfleet isn't a military" to answer me 3 things.
1. If starfleet isn't a military what does it need trial by Court Marshal for? And remember folks trial by Court Marshal is a HELL of a lot different than going to trial in civilian courts. You don't get Miranda rights you get in the us military(and it's the same in a lot of other military services) article 32 which states the accused does NOT have the right to remain silent and that can be confirmed as guilty by refusing to speak and sentence to be carried out as a judge states.
2, If starfleet isn't a military, why would it use a trial by court marshal instead of just a trial by a jury that any john doe would get for breaking the law?
3. You name 1 civilian service that HAS trial by court marshal. Go on, I'll be waiting.
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(They fly past a ship in Spacedock. Archer is piloting.)
ARCHER: The NX-02.
FORREST: She'll be ready to launch in fourteen months.
ARCHER: A long time.
FORREST: Hopefully you'll be back well before then.
ARCHER: Hopefully. What kind of armaments will she have?
FORREST: The same complement of weapons that you'll have once the retrofit is done. Have you told your crew?
ARCHER: This morning.
FORREST: How many are staying aboard?
ARCHER: Some haven't decided yet, but I don't think more then eight or nine will be leaving. I talked to General Casey a few hours ago.
FORREST: His team should be arriving at eighteen hundred hours. I was surprised you asked for them. You think you'll be comfortable with the military on board?
ARCHER: I don't have a problem with non-Starfleet personnel. The General tell me these are the best he has. I'm going to need all the muscle I can get when we cross into the Expanse.
FORREST: You weren't told where in this Expanse you were supposed to look.
ARCHER: Not even a hint.
FORREST: This weapon they're building, did he say how long it was going to take them?
ARCHER: I didn't think he would have warned us if we didn't have a chance of stopping them
If Starfleet is a military organisation then Admiral Forrest's question is meaningless.
Simply bad writing that wants to cling to the whole "starfleet isn't a military". Then why have ranks at all?
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(They fly past a ship in Spacedock. Archer is piloting.)
ARCHER: The NX-02.
FORREST: She'll be ready to launch in fourteen months.
ARCHER: A long time.
FORREST: Hopefully you'll be back well before then.
ARCHER: Hopefully. What kind of armaments will she have?
FORREST: The same complement of weapons that you'll have once the retrofit is done. Have you told your crew?
ARCHER: This morning.
FORREST: How many are staying aboard?
ARCHER: Some haven't decided yet, but I don't think more then eight or nine will be leaving. I talked to General Casey a few hours ago.
FORREST: His team should be arriving at eighteen hundred hours. I was surprised you asked for them. You think you'll be comfortable with the military on board?
ARCHER: I don't have a problem with non-Starfleet personnel. The General tell me these are the best he has. I'm going to need all the muscle I can get when we cross into the Expanse.
FORREST: You weren't told where in this Expanse you were supposed to look.
ARCHER: Not even a hint.
FORREST: This weapon they're building, did he say how long it was going to take them?
ARCHER: I didn't think he would have warned us if we didn't have a chance of stopping them
If Starfleet is a military organisation then Admiral Forrest's question is meaningless.
Unfortunately, that was Earth Starfleet, which was akin to Genes and Nichelle's comments about being a strictly exploratory service that was armed, but the Federation Starfleet is the Federation's primary defense as shown in every series. Earth Starfleet went from being that NASA (which by the way is run by Civilians, but military personnel are the ones who actually doing the going into space) into a Navy.
If you look at Federation Starfleet members who called Starfleet a non-military, it was Picard who uttered the sentence once in seven seasons and four movies, and more recently Scotty in Beyond, yet if you looked at what Starfleet did in Trek 09, it was the Federation's first line of defense, and Picard, obviously, has gotten over the non-military stance since he has counted being a battlefield commander as one of his accomplishments. Kirk has stated he was a soldier along with O'Brien. If you look at the medals that Riker, Data, and Sisko has received, they were awarded during combat-esque operations.
If you look at what the 19th Century Royal and US navies did, you would see that the parallel with Starfleet is very clear. They did anti-piracy patrols, explored and studied the ocean, set up coaling stations, set up colonies, ran supplies to said colonies and stations, and so on. Even today, the biggest humanitarian relief efforts in modern history were done by the US Navy and Marines, in fact, they are generally the first on scene to provide relief. While Gene and Nichelle opinions are greatly appreciated, just even looking at the TOS Starfleet, it is not a Coast Guard nor a NASA-esque agency.
(They fly past a ship in Spacedock. Archer is piloting.)
ARCHER: The NX-02.
FORREST: She'll be ready to launch in fourteen months.
ARCHER: A long time.
FORREST: Hopefully you'll be back well before then.
ARCHER: Hopefully. What kind of armaments will she have?
FORREST: The same complement of weapons that you'll have once the retrofit is done. Have you told your crew?
ARCHER: This morning.
FORREST: How many are staying aboard?
ARCHER: Some haven't decided yet, but I don't think more then eight or nine will be leaving. I talked to General Casey a few hours ago.
FORREST: His team should be arriving at eighteen hundred hours. I was surprised you asked for them. You think you'll be comfortable with the military on board?
ARCHER: I don't have a problem with non-Starfleet personnel. The General tell me these are the best he has. I'm going to need all the muscle I can get when we cross into the Expanse.
FORREST: You weren't told where in this Expanse you were supposed to look.
ARCHER: Not even a hint.
FORREST: This weapon they're building, did he say how long it was going to take them?
ARCHER: I didn't think he would have warned us if we didn't have a chance of stopping them
If Starfleet is a military organisation then Admiral Forrest's question is meaningless.
Simply bad writing that wants to cling to the whole "starfleet isn't a military". Then why have ranks at all?
This is ridiculous now. Everything in canon, from writers to actors to characters to the creator of the **** series himself says "It's not a military" and you just stick your fingers in your ears and say "nuh uh, is too!".
Bottom line, Starfleet is a scientific space exploration organization that has a structure modeled on the military (as does NASA, which Starfleet is a direct philosophical descendant of) and that has as PART of its mission profile tactical and strategic defense. That's it, period, end of story. Your opinion doesn't matter, the people WHO MADE THE STORIES said it's that way and that's final. You have no authority to contradict the word of the creators.
NASA is not modeled on the military, it's a joint operation between both civilians and military personnel (something Starfleet does as well when working with scientists who are not part of Starfleet), and it's ridiculous to stand by an insulting statement that Starfleet is not a military when every single thing it does is military, there isn't one thing Starfleet does that you can point to and say "see, Picard/Scotty/Gene was right, Starfleet isn't a military"
Bottom line, Starfleet is a scientific space exploration organization that has a structure modeled on the military (as does NASA, which Starfleet is a direct philosophical descendant of) and that has as PART of its mission profile tactical and strategic defense. That's it, period, end of story.
Bottom line, the Calypso, the greatest ship of exploration in the modern era, doesn't mount so much as a pintel-mounted .50-cal for defense. Every version of the Enterprise has bristled with enough weaponry to devastate entire planets.
Why are you so afraid of the word "military"? Why does it bother you that Starfleet might be made up of a cadre of dedicated, highly-trained men and women and others who have sworn their lives to a cause greater than themselves?
Bottom line, Starfleet is a scientific space exploration organization that has a structure modeled on the military (as does NASA, which Starfleet is a direct philosophical descendant of) and that has as PART of its mission profile tactical and strategic defense. That's it, period, end of story.
Bottom line, the Calypso, the greatest ship of exploration in the modern era, doesn't mount so much as a pintel-mounted .50-cal for defense. Every version of the Enterprise has bristled with enough weaponry to devastate entire planets.
Why are you so afraid of the word "military"? Why does it bother you that Starfleet might be made up of a cadre of dedicated, highly-trained men and women and others who have sworn their lives to a cause greater than themselves?
I don't think anyone is 'afraid' of the word military, it just goes against the idealism that was behind the core principles of the original story and one which writers have battled with ever since. Remember this is fiction, it has to be entertaining, there has to be pew pew to some extent, if the organisation were real there is a very good chance that nobody would make a show about it because it would be so boring. Same reason people complain that STO is all about pew pew, of course it is, that's what makes it entertaining! Make an MMO with very occasional pew pew and mostly diplomatic missions and exploring the geology of uncharted worlds, would soon become boring. Even No Man's Sky which is all about exploration is going to have a lot of pew pew in it. As I said earlier do not confuse necessity with intent.
Again principles went out the window when JAMES T KIRK WAS COURT MARSHALED! Sorry that's a military court of law, not a civilian and there are BIG differences.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
Bottom line, Starfleet is a scientific space exploration organization that has a structure modeled on the military (as does NASA, which Starfleet is a direct philosophical descendant of) and that has as PART of its mission profile tactical and strategic defense. That's it, period, end of story.
Bottom line, the Calypso, the greatest ship of exploration in the modern era, doesn't mount so much as a pintel-mounted .50-cal for defense. Every version of the Enterprise has bristled with enough weaponry to devastate entire planets.
Why are you so afraid of the word "military"? Why does it bother you that Starfleet might be made up of a cadre of dedicated, highly-trained men and women and others who have sworn their lives to a cause greater than themselves?
I don't think anyone is 'afraid' of the word military, it just goes against the idealism that was behind the core principles of the original story and one which writers have battled with ever since. Remember this is fiction, it has to be entertaining, there has to be pew pew to some extent, if the organisation were real there is a very good chance that nobody would make a show about it because it would be so boring. Same reason people complain that STO is all about pew pew, of course it is, that's what makes it entertaining! Make an MMO with very occasional pew pew and mostly diplomatic missions and exploring the geology of uncharted worlds, would soon become boring. Even No Man's Sky which is all about exploration is going to have a lot of pew pew in it. As I said earlier do not confuse necessity with intent.
Again principles went out the window when JAMES T KIRK WAS COURT MARSHALED! Sorry that's a military court of law, not a civilian and there are BIG differences.
Another case in point, yes. It's right there in the name of the procedure - "court-martial", to distinguish it from a civilian court (or from the less formal "captain's mast", used for relatively minor infractions).
I think I'm starting to feel insulted by the seeming insinuation that "military" of necessity means "militaristic", that "military service" must always mean "shooting people" and nothing else. There are military personnel whose entire careers are based in search&rescue (SAR), research and development in both materials science and medicine, the aforementioned HR, software engineering, and yes, exploration (both space and groundside - we've got several military members at the station in Antarctica, for instance). There was a time when one of the primary missions of Britain's Royal Navy was exploration, as much of the map still consisted of large blank areas and notes regarding dragons - were they not a military force during that period?
Yes, Starfleet conducts research and exploration missions, rescues populations, conducts searches for missing ships and people - and is a military organization. Why are so many treating that as a bad thing?
We're back fullcircle we were some pages ago. These discussion always follow the same routine and comes down to at least a part of those partaking either not reading or ignoring the bulk of stuff that is said in the discussion itself (and I know both sides now claim this position to be the opposing side's ), otherwise we wouldn't reheat the same arguments from before once again.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Comments
If the writers really want it to not be the Federation military, they need to stop cloaking it in military symbolism, structure, and storytelling at every turn and give the Federation SOMEONE ELSE to do those nasty brutish jobs that keep the Federation from being obliterated that are just too primitive and violent for those Star Fleet types to be bothered with.
If you ever wonder how Section 31 metamorphosed from all but moustache-twirling villains to somewhat sympathetic workhorses who end up having to do the dirty so the Federation doesn't get stomped out of existence, its because those high-minded captains and crews sitting on top of potentially continent-leveling mobile arsenals seem so put out that they might have to actually do their damn job when diplomacy fails. The setting has simply been around too long and introduced too many threats for ANYONE to believe in the Federation's inherent right to exist through the power of love, pixy dust, and a benevolent galaxy.
What you call 'good enough' is actually the people on the scene recognizing the battle was lost before they even got out of the first season. Star Trek, despite its noble intentions, was absorbing military themes and behavior almost immediately.
There's nothing wrong with a sci-fi series about a futuristic exploratory and diplomatic service - but Star Trek ain't it and hasn't been it almost from the word 'go'. Because the storytellers keep wanting to have conflicts that are advanced and often ultimately resolved by the application of naked force.
Boring
[/10 char]
And guess what, regardless of what he wanted, it grew beyond him. It happens. Gene simply couldn't deal with it.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Characters have said Starfleet is not military. Writers have said Starfleet is not military. However, this contradicts literally every single thing Starfleet is ever depicted doing, because everything about what they do and how they operate, from R&D to exploration to defense, makes them a military organisation. These statements everyone keeps quoting can only be one of two things; either overly idealistic characters, or delusional writers who have no idea what their talking about and suffer from the misguided belief that militaries are bad. I could say the Baltimore Orioles are not a baseball team, or that my silver car is blue, or that my dog is not a mutt, hell I could even believe those things with all my heart, but it would not make it true.
Here's a question, if none of those statements were ever made, would you still say Starfleet is not military?
The US Coast Guard IS a full blown branch of the military, and service members in this branch can, and have, been deployed overseas during times of war. And before anyone says not every country is like that, Star Trek is an american made show created by an American, so it's probable he would have drawn inspiration from the American version.
The intent to explore does not make it any less of a military, and a ship with enough firepower to glass every city on a planet is not a ship of exploration, the Enterprise was a warship on a mission of exploration.
My character Tsin'xing
Thatvis however a different statement from "Starfleet is a military organisation". People need to define beforehand what they want to say. Nikei and mark and others claim it's a military organisation and provide definitions and comparisons between SFs tasks and real life militaries. Their line of argumentation is objectively wrong and their conclusion is false. Saying Starfleet acts as the UFPs military is however true.
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Actually Gene wanted ToS and the movies stricken from the canon and season three of TNG was to have Wesley take command of the Enterprise. He was kicked upstairs because his initial concept was good. And his fleshing it out was not.
I am not saying every cast and crew needs to salute and swear by the UCMJ. But the issue is the 'not military' comes from Vietnam era distrust of the military and seeing it as an evil unto itself. Often they tried to hard in TNG to be not-military. They put a security/tactical officer on the bridge. Ask him his opinion of a situation then deride him for wanting anything as simple as raising shields. Later when the not-military theme was effectively dropped, this became s.o.p.
So it is a matter of when and what writer said what. We can't pull one item down and use it as the only evidence one way or another.
Does Starfleet act as the Federations soldier? Yes.
Do they want to be? General rule, no. (Individuality does still occur.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Mention one thing that shows Starfleet is not a military, please. Someone simply saying it does not make it true. They operate exactly like a military organization, they do everything a military organization does, and they do not do anything a modern military would not do.
"Starfleet is not a military organization" is simply a false statement borne of poor writing and is, quite frankly, very insulting to anyone who has and will serve in the military.
1. If starfleet isn't a military what does it need trial by Court Marshal for? And remember folks trial by Court Marshal is a HELL of a lot different than going to trial in civilian courts. You don't get Miranda rights you get in the us military(and it's the same in a lot of other military services) article 32 which states the accused does NOT have the right to remain silent and that can be confirmed as guilty by refusing to speak and sentence to be carried out as a judge states.
2, If starfleet isn't a military, why would it use a trial by court marshal instead of just a trial by a jury that any john doe would get for breaking the law?
3. You name 1 civilian service that HAS trial by court marshal. Go on, I'll be waiting.
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But let me know first - I want to make popcorn.
Simply bad writing that wants to cling to the whole "starfleet isn't a military". Then why have ranks at all?
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Unfortunately, that was Earth Starfleet, which was akin to Genes and Nichelle's comments about being a strictly exploratory service that was armed, but the Federation Starfleet is the Federation's primary defense as shown in every series. Earth Starfleet went from being that NASA (which by the way is run by Civilians, but military personnel are the ones who actually doing the going into space) into a Navy.
If you look at Federation Starfleet members who called Starfleet a non-military, it was Picard who uttered the sentence once in seven seasons and four movies, and more recently Scotty in Beyond, yet if you looked at what Starfleet did in Trek 09, it was the Federation's first line of defense, and Picard, obviously, has gotten over the non-military stance since he has counted being a battlefield commander as one of his accomplishments. Kirk has stated he was a soldier along with O'Brien. If you look at the medals that Riker, Data, and Sisko has received, they were awarded during combat-esque operations.
If you look at what the 19th Century Royal and US navies did, you would see that the parallel with Starfleet is very clear. They did anti-piracy patrols, explored and studied the ocean, set up coaling stations, set up colonies, ran supplies to said colonies and stations, and so on. Even today, the biggest humanitarian relief efforts in modern history were done by the US Navy and Marines, in fact, they are generally the first on scene to provide relief. While Gene and Nichelle opinions are greatly appreciated, just even looking at the TOS Starfleet, it is not a Coast Guard nor a NASA-esque agency.
NASA is not modeled on the military, it's a joint operation between both civilians and military personnel (something Starfleet does as well when working with scientists who are not part of Starfleet), and it's ridiculous to stand by an insulting statement that Starfleet is not a military when every single thing it does is military, there isn't one thing Starfleet does that you can point to and say "see, Picard/Scotty/Gene was right, Starfleet isn't a military"
Why are you so afraid of the word "military"? Why does it bother you that Starfleet might be made up of a cadre of dedicated, highly-trained men and women and others who have sworn their lives to a cause greater than themselves?
Again principles went out the window when JAMES T KIRK WAS COURT MARSHALED! Sorry that's a military court of law, not a civilian and there are BIG differences.
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I think I'm starting to feel insulted by the seeming insinuation that "military" of necessity means "militaristic", that "military service" must always mean "shooting people" and nothing else. There are military personnel whose entire careers are based in search&rescue (SAR), research and development in both materials science and medicine, the aforementioned HR, software engineering, and yes, exploration (both space and groundside - we've got several military members at the station in Antarctica, for instance). There was a time when one of the primary missions of Britain's Royal Navy was exploration, as much of the map still consisted of large blank areas and notes regarding dragons - were they not a military force during that period?
Yes, Starfleet conducts research and exploration missions, rescues populations, conducts searches for missing ships and people - and is a military organization. Why are so many treating that as a bad thing?
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