Bottom line, Starfleet is a scientific space exploration organization that has a structure modeled on the military (as does NASA, which Starfleet is a direct philosophical descendant of) and that has as PART of its mission profile tactical and strategic defense. That's it, period, end of story.
Bottom line, the Calypso, the greatest ship of exploration in the modern era, doesn't mount so much as a pintel-mounted .50-cal for defense. Every version of the Enterprise has bristled with enough weaponry to devastate entire planets.
Why are you so afraid of the word "military"? Why does it bother you that Starfleet might be made up of a cadre of dedicated, highly-trained men and women and others who have sworn their lives to a cause greater than themselves?
I don't think anyone is 'afraid' of the word military, it just goes against the idealism that was behind the core principles of the original story and one which writers have battled with ever since. Remember this is fiction, it has to be entertaining, there has to be pew pew to some extent, if the organisation were real there is a very good chance that nobody would make a show about it because it would be so boring. Same reason people complain that STO is all about pew pew, of course it is, that's what makes it entertaining! Make an MMO with very occasional pew pew and mostly diplomatic missions and exploring the geology of uncharted worlds, would soon become boring. Even No Man's Sky which is all about exploration is going to have a lot of pew pew in it. As I said earlier do not confuse necessity with intent.
Again principles went out the window when JAMES T KIRK WAS COURT MARSHALED! Sorry that's a military court of law, not a civilian and there are BIG differences.
Another case in point, yes. It's right there in the name of the procedure - "court-martial", to distinguish it from a civilian court (or from the less formal "captain's mast", used for relatively minor infractions).
I think I'm starting to feel insulted by the seeming insinuation that "military" of necessity means "militaristic", that "military service" must always mean "shooting people" and nothing else. There are military personnel whose entire careers are based in search&rescue (SAR), research and development in both materials science and medicine, the aforementioned HR, software engineering, and yes, exploration (both space and groundside - we've got several military members at the station in Antarctica, for instance). There was a time when one of the primary missions of Britain's Royal Navy was exploration, as much of the map still consisted of large blank areas and notes regarding dragons - were they not a military force during that period?
Yes, Starfleet conducts research and exploration missions, rescues populations, conducts searches for missing ships and people - and is a military organization. Why are so many treating that as a bad thing?
I think if you are getting insulted by a debate about the classification of a fictional futuristic organisation it's time to move on.
Oh, no, my dear troll-wannabe - I'm beginning to feel insulted by the classification of the real-world military as nothing but a bunch of killers in uniform, as if none of the other missions performed by the armed services exist. Your attempted diversion is mildly interesting, but nothing special - you should seek advice from someone like nabreeki on the best way to derail a discussion.
Bottom line, Starfleet is a scientific space exploration organization that has a structure modeled on the military (as does NASA, which Starfleet is a direct philosophical descendant of) and that has as PART of its mission profile tactical and strategic defense. That's it, period, end of story.
Bottom line, the Calypso, the greatest ship of exploration in the modern era, doesn't mount so much as a pintel-mounted .50-cal for defense. Every version of the Enterprise has bristled with enough weaponry to devastate entire planets.
Why are you so afraid of the word "military"? Why does it bother you that Starfleet might be made up of a cadre of dedicated, highly-trained men and women and others who have sworn their lives to a cause greater than themselves?
I don't think anyone is 'afraid' of the word military, it just goes against the idealism that was behind the core principles of the original story and one which writers have battled with ever since. Remember this is fiction, it has to be entertaining, there has to be pew pew to some extent, if the organisation were real there is a very good chance that nobody would make a show about it because it would be so boring. Same reason people complain that STO is all about pew pew, of course it is, that's what makes it entertaining! Make an MMO with very occasional pew pew and mostly diplomatic missions and exploring the geology of uncharted worlds, would soon become boring. Even No Man's Sky which is all about exploration is going to have a lot of pew pew in it. As I said earlier do not confuse necessity with intent.
Again principles went out the window when JAMES T KIRK WAS COURT MARSHALED! Sorry that's a military court of law, not a civilian and there are BIG differences.
Another case in point, yes. It's right there in the name of the procedure - "court-martial", to distinguish it from a civilian court (or from the less formal "captain's mast", used for relatively minor infractions).
I think I'm starting to feel insulted by the seeming insinuation that "military" of necessity means "militaristic", that "military service" must always mean "shooting people" and nothing else. There are military personnel whose entire careers are based in search&rescue (SAR), research and development in both materials science and medicine, the aforementioned HR, software engineering, and yes, exploration (both space and groundside - we've got several military members at the station in Antarctica, for instance). There was a time when one of the primary missions of Britain's Royal Navy was exploration, as much of the map still consisted of large blank areas and notes regarding dragons - were they not a military force during that period?
Yes, Starfleet conducts research and exploration missions, rescues populations, conducts searches for missing ships and people - and is a military organization. Why are so many treating that as a bad thing?
I think if you are getting insulted by a debate about the classification of a fictional futuristic organisation it's time to move on.
Oh, no, my dear troll-wannabe - I'm beginning to feel insulted by the classification of the real-world military as nothing but a bunch of killers in uniform, as if none of the other missions performed by the armed services exist. Your attempted diversion is mildly interesting, but nothing special - you should seek advice from someone like nabreeki on the best way to derail a discussion.
I'm going with this. Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck, but for some it's a sparrow. Sorry kids, MILITARY. Get over it.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
Oh, no, my dear troll-wannabe - I'm beginning to feel insulted by the classification of the real-world military as nothing but a bunch of killers in uniform, as if none of the other missions performed by the armed services exist. Your attempted diversion is mildly interesting, but nothing special - you should seek advice from someone like nabreeki on the best way to derail a discussion.
But nobody has done so. And it's hard to have a reasonable debate if one side suddenly gets all emotional and starts to get loud. That's how Trumps' republicans end discussions but not how it should work.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Sighs. So lets start this debate and hope I don't get to burned. Star Fleet is a Fleet of ships whose PRIMARY mandate is scientific exploration and study of the galaxy and people. However, the Federation also learned long ago that there are others out there who don't want us out there, and Star Fleet took on the SECONDARY position of a military deterent force. So yes it is a military in the way that it mounts weapons and is charged with the defense of the Federation, but that's not it's primary purpose. In this way its more like the United States Coast Guard, just better armed due to the nature of it's enemies. However the Federation is not a militaristic society. The Federation is just that, a Federation of planets. Just because a society has a military to defense doesn't make it a militaristic society, it makes it smart, especially concidering if it didn't have any defensive capabilities, the Klingons, Romulans, Andorians, Cardians, Breen, Dominion... take your pick would have destroyed the Federation long ago. That said, when you have a force that's as military capable as Star Fleet, you're going to have those who want to use it for power and gain, but the Federation has been pretty good (but not perfect) in keeping those forces in check. Now the idea that an exploration vessel shouldn't have any weapons on it is just idiotic, when you concider that generally humans have an understanding that you don't target non-military vessels, but we've begun to see non-military vessels, even on todays Earth, beging to mount self-defense weaponry to keep of pirates and such.
Oh, no, my dear troll-wannabe - I'm beginning to feel insulted by the classification of the real-world military as nothing but a bunch of killers in uniform, as if none of the other missions performed by the armed services exist. Your attempted diversion is mildly interesting, but nothing special - you should seek advice from someone like nabreeki on the best way to derail a discussion.
But nobody has done so. And it's hard to have a reasonable debate if one side suddenly gets all emotional and starts to get loud. That's how Trumps' republicans end discussions but not how it should work.
Let's not talk politics, not like Hillary had half the DNC walk out on her during her speech or anything.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
Let's not talk politics, not like Hillary had half the DNC walk out on her during her speech or anything.
It wasn't about politics, but I felt it was a good way to illustrate irrational emotional behaviour in a discussion that should rely simply on facts.
If anyone in this discussion gets emotional they shouldn't be surprised that others lose their interest in continuing this. But they should also not confuse pushing people away with having the better arguments.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Too much to get through, but here's my take on it.
Earth once upon a time (i.e. NOW) was a militaristic mess that evolved into a peaceful society of explorers and diplomats. It makes sense that as society evolved so too did the military to a more peaceful position. The military still operates during peace time, the Federation ensures this is the norm not constant warfare which is what sets them apart from the Klingons say who aim for war and battle.
Terminology evolves, we know that Starfleet has militaristic history by design, but has evolved further to service a peaceful society.
Heres is another concept: Starfleet has to deploy its ships on the basis of its defensive needs first, scientific and diplomatic endeavors second because if it did it the other way around, most of the Federation would be speaking Klingon or Romulan. Starfleets mission is primarily what the military does but most of the time, its in a position to also conduct scientific and diplomatic efforts.
A primary roll doesnt have to be what an org' does most of the time in an active roll, its what is done as the first consideration of its tactical and strategic mission planning and execution.
Sighs. So lets start this debate and hope I don't get to burned. Star Fleet is a Fleet of ships whose PRIMARY mandate is scientific exploration and study of the galaxy and people. However, the Federation also learned long ago that there are others out there who don't want us out there, and Star Fleet took on the SECONDARY position of a military deterent force. So yes it is a military in the way that it mounts weapons and is charged with the defense of the Federation, but that's not it's primary purpose. In this way its more like the United States Coast Guard, just better armed due to the nature of it's enemies. However the Federation is not a militaristic society. The Federation is just that, a Federation of planets. Just because a society has a military to defense doesn't make it a militaristic society, it makes it smart, especially concidering if it didn't have any defensive capabilities, the Klingons, Romulans, Andorians, Cardians, Breen, Dominion... take your pick would have destroyed the Federation long ago. That said, when you have a force that's as military capable as Star Fleet, you're going to have those who want to use it for power and gain, but the Federation has been pretty good (but not perfect) in keeping those forces in check. Now the idea that an exploration vessel shouldn't have any weapons on it is just idiotic, when you concider that generally humans have an understanding that you don't target non-military vessels, but we've begun to see non-military vessels, even on todays Earth, beging to mount self-defense weaponry to keep of pirates and such.
Hate to say it, but you're wrong. It has shown time and again, that if there is a threat to the Federation, the Enterprise is diverted from what ever non-combat oriented mission it is on. While some of the episodes used non-combat means to solve what ever the crew was sent to (not a bad thing at all).
I read everything above, and am throwing down what I think based on hard, soft, head, and all kinds of canon.
First, to illustrate my point, I will start off with an analogy or two.
One:
There are a group of scientists in a lab somewhere in the USA. A group of three criminals break in to steal research data for another company, essentially industrial espionage. A few of the scientists are concealed weapons owners and fire at the intruders, who are armed with guns and threatening to kill the scientists unless they hand over the goods. The scientists draw there weapons and fire at the intruders, killing two and injuring one. They call the police and the incident is wrapped up, and they go back to researching the next day.
(Yes, there are some holes, like "Why are they caring guns at work" and such, but please bear with it, I am trying to illustrate a point.)
Two:
There are a group of scientists in a lab. There nation goes to war. They get drafted and serve in the war. At the end of it, they return to there jobs at home.
Now, in both situations, peaceful people defend themselves/serve there nation in a conflict situation. Either defending themselves for one day or for a war, they stepped out of the role of peaceful persons doing research to a combative persons defending a goal/entity/item of value.
Does this make them 100% combative and warrior like? NO. Does it mean they can defend themselves in an organized manor? YES.
Starfleet is the exact same. They are peaceful until they need to defend themselves, but they carry that defense with them in case it is necessary. That defense may come in the form of a warship, but if it is the way you must carry that defense with you, than so be it. Starfleet is a militarized organization, not a military organization. Big difference. A group of people carrying guns is a different kind of people depending on intent. It could be for defense or aggression, but you do not know unless you ask those people there intent.
In regards to court marshals and other things related to a real life military, they are simply part of there system. Starfleet models itself off of a navy because it is the most effective system of organization. Using what works helps make there system, organization of duties, and conduct run smoother, become more productive, and keep things in order. Yes, they borrow things like a court marshal procedure and naval ranks and such because it works. There entity is so large that it makes sense. If they decided to totally reinvent the wheel for there organization, do you think it would really work? The time, effort, regulations, decisions, and manpower that would have to be sunk into an entirely new system? It would be more risky and susceptible to failure than a system that multiple founders of the federation and more have structured themselves in the past. Take what works, and apply it.
In regards to Kirk's comment, the ship is under the authority of the United Earth Space Probe Agency to serve in Starfleet which is entity that serves the United Federation of Planets.
And I am not stuck at the word military, I just think they are more of a militarized entity due to the way it exists. It is a fictional entity, and draws off of multiple elements of a non-fictional world. That means it falls into its own separate category.
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CHRISTOPHER: Must have taken quite a lot to build a ship like this. KIRK: There are only twelve like it in the fleet. CHRISTOPHER: I see. Did the Navy KIRK: We're a combined service, Captain. Our authority is the United Earth Space Probe Agency.
This proves that they are at least a navy in a "combined service".
UESPA (pronounced "you-spah") was [. . .] one of several names given in early episodes for the agency under which the Enterprise and its crew operated before writers finally settled on "Starfleet".
With the release of The Animated Series DVD, the studio appears to have changed its stance, and is leaning towards the animated series being part of established Star Trek canon.
WORF: That will not do. Rifkin commands a starship. Protocol requires he be given equal quarters. ODO: But he's only a captain. WORF: It is naval tradition.
DAX: Are you two ever going to be finished? NOG: Just a few more minutes, Commander. O'BRIEN: That's Captain. It's an old naval tradition. Whoever's in command of a ship, regardless of rank, is referred to as Captain.
A navy or maritime force is a fleet of waterborne military vessels (watercraft) and its associated naval aviation, both sea-based and land-based. [. . .] recent developments have included space-related operations.
[. . .]
In most nations, the term "naval", as opposed to "navy", is interpreted as encompassing all maritime military forces, e.g., navy, marine / marine corps, and coast guard forces.
In the case of Starfleet, it is a fleet of spaceborne military vessels (spacecraft). A real-life navy includes non-combat duties too, but it's still a military service.
USS Enterprise (CVN-65) was an aircraft carrier and the flagship of Nuclear Task Force One in the United States Navy. It is one of the drawings on the ship wall in Star Trek: The Motion Picture and in Captain Archer's ready room (pictured below):
Star Trek's USS Enterprise carries shuttlecraft, so it's a carrier too.
Naval officers first attend a naval college or academy such as the United States Naval Academy. This corresponds to Starfleet Academy in Star Trek.
Therefore, Starfleet is a naval force in space that combines military forces such as navy, marine corps and coast guard. It also means that the Federation is a militaristic society.
This should settle it.
UPDATE:Starfleet Marine Corps.
Colonel West, reinstated in the VHS version of Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.
While identified in dialogue as a "colonel", West wore the uniform of a Starfleet vice admiral (equivalent to a lieutenant general). The display that West shows during the briefing, does mention a Starfleet Marine Corps, suggesting (along with his rank) that West is actually a Marine himself.
The details of the operation involved a direct incursion by several starships, plus several teams of Starfleet Marines.
[. . .]
The Operation Retrieve briefing is, so far, the only canonical mention of the Starfleet Marine Corps. They are not spoken of in dialogue, but are mentioned on the display that Colonel West (who, given his rank, is presumably a SF Marine himself) shows to the assembled gathering.
"Standby Ground Troops Starfleet Tactical Marine Corps Entry Point"
Oh, by the way, this is not a ship of exploration:
Bottom line, Starfleet is a scientific space exploration organization that has a structure modeled on the military (as does NASA, which Starfleet is a direct philosophical descendant of) and that has as PART of its mission profile tactical and strategic defense. That's it, period, end of story.
Bottom line, the Calypso, the greatest ship of exploration in the modern era, doesn't mount so much as a pintel-mounted .50-cal for defense. Every version of the Enterprise has bristled with enough weaponry to devastate entire planets.
Why are you so afraid of the word "military"? Why does it bother you that Starfleet might be made up of a cadre of dedicated, highly-trained men and women and others who have sworn their lives to a cause greater than themselves?
I don't think anyone is 'afraid' of the word military, it just goes against the idealism that was behind the core principles of the original story and one which writers have battled with ever since. Remember this is fiction, it has to be entertaining, there has to be pew pew to some extent, if the organisation were real there is a very good chance that nobody would make a show about it because it would be so boring. Same reason people complain that STO is all about pew pew, of course it is, that's what makes it entertaining! Make an MMO with very occasional pew pew and mostly diplomatic missions and exploring the geology of uncharted worlds, would soon become boring. Even No Man's Sky which is all about exploration is going to have a lot of pew pew in it. As I said earlier do not confuse necessity with intent.
Again principles went out the window when JAMES T KIRK WAS COURT MARSHALED! Sorry that's a military court of law, not a civilian and there are BIG differences.
Another case in point, yes. It's right there in the name of the procedure - "court-martial", to distinguish it from a civilian court (or from the less formal "captain's mast", used for relatively minor infractions).
I think I'm starting to feel insulted by the seeming insinuation that "military" of necessity means "militaristic", that "military service" must always mean "shooting people" and nothing else. There are military personnel whose entire careers are based in search&rescue (SAR), research and development in both materials science and medicine, the aforementioned HR, software engineering, and yes, exploration (both space and groundside - we've got several military members at the station in Antarctica, for instance). There was a time when one of the primary missions of Britain's Royal Navy was exploration, as much of the map still consisted of large blank areas and notes regarding dragons - were they not a military force during that period?
Yes, Starfleet conducts research and exploration missions, rescues populations, conducts searches for missing ships and people - and is a military organization. Why are so many treating that as a bad thing?
I think if you are getting insulted by a debate about the classification of a fictional futuristic organisation it's time to move on.
Oh, no, my dear troll-wannabe - I'm beginning to feel insulted by the classification of the real-world military as nothing but a bunch of killers in uniform, as if none of the other missions performed by the armed services exist. Your attempted diversion is mildly interesting, but nothing special - you should seek advice from someone like nabreeki on the best way to derail a discussion.
Excuse me? If you really are as old as you appear in your profile picture you should really have grown out of ad hominem attacks. I am not a troll wannabee as you described, I seriously think you are taking the issue far too seriously if you feel personally insulted and perhaps removing yourself from the discussion would alleviate your stress levels.
And as you brought it up I don't recall anyone stating that the military were a bunch of killers in uniform, I certainly didn't, neither do I have any ill feeling for our military organisations, quite the contrary, I worked with the military organisations of most European MoDs for over ten years supplying them with all types of equipment, I met many real life heroes for whom I have the greatest respect. The issue isn't about what the military means to people, it's a simple question, is Starfleet a military organisation, I don't believe it is for the reasons I stated, you hold a different opinion which I respect, but my point is you should not be insulted by a simple discussion or it's time to move on.
The insulting part is the insinuation that Starfleet has evolved to no longer be a military and is somehow better for it.
Bottom line, Starfleet is a scientific space exploration organization that has a structure modeled on the military (as does NASA, which Starfleet is a direct philosophical descendant of) and that has as PART of its mission profile tactical and strategic defense. That's it, period, end of story.
Bottom line, the Calypso, the greatest ship of exploration in the modern era, doesn't mount so much as a pintel-mounted .50-cal for defense. Every version of the Enterprise has bristled with enough weaponry to devastate entire planets.
Why are you so afraid of the word "military"? Why does it bother you that Starfleet might be made up of a cadre of dedicated, highly-trained men and women and others who have sworn their lives to a cause greater than themselves?
I don't think anyone is 'afraid' of the word military, it just goes against the idealism that was behind the core principles of the original story and one which writers have battled with ever since. Remember this is fiction, it has to be entertaining, there has to be pew pew to some extent, if the organisation were real there is a very good chance that nobody would make a show about it because it would be so boring. Same reason people complain that STO is all about pew pew, of course it is, that's what makes it entertaining! Make an MMO with very occasional pew pew and mostly diplomatic missions and exploring the geology of uncharted worlds, would soon become boring. Even No Man's Sky which is all about exploration is going to have a lot of pew pew in it. As I said earlier do not confuse necessity with intent.
Again principles went out the window when JAMES T KIRK WAS COURT MARSHALED! Sorry that's a military court of law, not a civilian and there are BIG differences.
Another case in point, yes. It's right there in the name of the procedure - "court-martial", to distinguish it from a civilian court (or from the less formal "captain's mast", used for relatively minor infractions).
I think I'm starting to feel insulted by the seeming insinuation that "military" of necessity means "militaristic", that "military service" must always mean "shooting people" and nothing else. There are military personnel whose entire careers are based in search&rescue (SAR), research and development in both materials science and medicine, the aforementioned HR, software engineering, and yes, exploration (both space and groundside - we've got several military members at the station in Antarctica, for instance). There was a time when one of the primary missions of Britain's Royal Navy was exploration, as much of the map still consisted of large blank areas and notes regarding dragons - were they not a military force during that period?
Yes, Starfleet conducts research and exploration missions, rescues populations, conducts searches for missing ships and people - and is a military organization. Why are so many treating that as a bad thing?
I think if you are getting insulted by a debate about the classification of a fictional futuristic organisation it's time to move on.
Oh, no, my dear troll-wannabe - I'm beginning to feel insulted by the classification of the real-world military as nothing but a bunch of killers in uniform, as if none of the other missions performed by the armed services exist. Your attempted diversion is mildly interesting, but nothing special - you should seek advice from someone like nabreeki on the best way to derail a discussion.
Excuse me? If you really are as old as you appear in your profile picture you should really have grown out of ad hominem attacks. I am not a troll wannabee as you described, I seriously think you are taking the issue far too seriously if you feel personally insulted and perhaps removing yourself from the discussion would alleviate your stress levels.
And as you brought it up I don't recall anyone stating that the military were a bunch of killers in uniform, I certainly didn't, neither do I have any ill feeling for our military organisations, quite the contrary, I worked with the military organisations of most European MoDs for over ten years supplying them with all types of equipment, I met many real life heroes for whom I have the greatest respect. The issue isn't about what the military means to people, it's a simple question, is Starfleet a military organisation, I don't believe it is for the reasons I stated, you hold a different opinion which I respect, but my point is you should not be insulted by a simple discussion or it's time to move on.
The insulting part is the insinuation that Starfleet has evolved to no longer be a military and is somehow better for it.
If that is what the fact's present, than yes.
Support the movement! Come stand with us in supporting Star Trek: The Animated Series content for STO! (It's canon!) #TASforSTO
Time travel and glass-cannon ships hurt my head and is NOT what Trek is about. Trek is exploration, becoming better as a species, and gaining scientific knowledge while holding on to the traditions that got us where were are. Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
The insulting part is the insinuation that Starfleet has evolved to no longer be a military and is somehow better for it.
Indeed. It's like that scene in FC where Picard talks to Lily about how much better Federation society is than Human society.... then at the end of the scene Picard looks like a hypocritical windbag when Lily points out that he's NOT thinking rationally and lashing out in anger instead of trying to solve the problem.
But that's the thing. All the facts and evidence (sans 2 or 3 quotes whose purpose eludes me) over the 20+ seasons of the show reinforce the fact that Starfleet is used as a military force, in peace keeping and war time operations.
It is what it is.
I don't know why having to give it a different name makes anyone feel any differently about Starfleet is.
They perform a military role, there is no other form of military in the Federation, therefore, Starfleet is the Federation's military. We can use a different name if that would make people happy, but it would just be a synonym and wouldn't actually change what Starfleet is.
Now the idea that an exploration vessel shouldn't have any weapons on it is just idiotic, when you concider that generally humans have an understanding that you don't target non-military vessels, but we've begun to see non-military vessels, even on todays Earth, beging to mount self-defense weaponry to keep of pirates and such.
In fact, go back a couple of hundred years and virtually ALL civilian oceanic sailing vessels were armed. Many Indiaman's from various nations were heavily armed enough to even rival regular warships.
Weapons carried for defensive purposes only, which is something several Starfleet captains have stated about their ships weapons when challenged about it.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
If the ships were armed only as a measure of self defense, they wouldnt need crews ranging from 500-1000 to run the ships, they would also be able to run more, and smaller vessels that would be able to evade/outrun its attackers because directly engaging a hostile risks a "non-military" crew to injury and death because (again) combat is not thier job.
There is also a big difference in being able to fend off "pirates", and engaging and destroying a major powers "ship of the line", a non-military vessel is committing suicide if it engages a major powers ship of the line.
I read everything above, and am throwing down what I think based on hard, soft, head, and all kinds of canon.
First, to illustrate my point, I will start off with an analogy or two.
One:
There are a group of scientists in a lab somewhere in the USA. A group of three criminals break in to steal research data for another company, essentially industrial espionage. A few of the scientists are concealed weapons owners and fire at the intruders, who are armed with guns and threatening to kill the scientists unless they hand over the goods. The scientists draw there weapons and fire at the intruders, killing two and injuring one. They call the police and the incident is wrapped up, and they go back to researching the next day.
(Yes, there are some holes, like "Why are they caring guns at work" and such, but please bear with it, I am trying to illustrate a point.)
Two:
There are a group of scientists in a lab. There nation goes to war. They get drafted and serve in the war. At the end of it, they return to there jobs at home.
Now, in both situations, peaceful people defend themselves/serve there nation in a conflict situation. Either defending themselves for one day or for a war, they stepped out of the role of peaceful persons doing research to a combative persons defending a goal/entity/item of value.
Does this make them 100% combative and warrior like? NO. Does it mean they can defend themselves in an organized manor? YES.
Starfleet is the exact same. They are peaceful until they need to defend themselves, but they carry that defense with them in case it is necessary. That defense may come in the form of a warship, but if it is the way you must carry that defense with you, than so be it. Starfleet is a militarized organization, not a military organization. Big difference. A group of people carrying guns is a different kind of people depending on intent. It could be for defense or aggression, but you do not know unless you ask those people there intent.
In regards to court marshals and other things related to a real life military, they are simply part of there system. Starfleet models itself off of a navy because it is the most effective system of organization. Using what works helps make there system, organization of duties, and conduct run smoother, become more productive, and keep things in order. Yes, they borrow things like a court marshal procedure and naval ranks and such because it works. There entity is so large that it makes sense. If they decided to totally reinvent the wheel for there organization, do you think it would really work? The time, effort, regulations, decisions, and manpower that would have to be sunk into an entirely new system? It would be more risky and susceptible to failure than a system that multiple founders of the federation and more have structured themselves in the past. Take what works, and apply it.
In regards to Kirk's comment, the ship is under the authority of the United Earth Space Probe Agency to serve in Starfleet which is entity that serves the United Federation of Planets.
And I am not stuck at the word military, I just think they are more of a militarized entity due to the way it exists. It is a fictional entity, and draws off of multiple elements of a non-fictional world. That means it falls into its own separate category.
it has a service academy and military ranks, and uniforms...
operates combat vessels, fights wars...
Also has court marshals, General Orders, Starfleet penitentiaries for breaking regulations, being put at the Position of Attention when being yelled at, but somehow is NOT a military.
Just military like when those who say it's not a military suits them.
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Starfleet is the militaristic arm of the Federation.
That does not however make it a Military.
The ranks, regulations, courts, etc are a form of organization that adheres to and respects a chain of command.
Something necessary for a large organization to function.
This is not military specific.
They could have made Starfleet corporate. CEO, CFO, Branch Managers, Managers, Tech I, Tech II, etc etc etc.
For those thinking that we are somehow looking down on the Military of today. That isn't fair.
Personally, I love, admire, and greatly respect the Men and Women who have the guts that I don't.
Without them, this world would not exist as it currently does. And I don't mean only the results of armed conflict.
They are so much more.
EvilMark44 said
"The insulting part is the insinuation that Starfleet has evolved to no longer be a military and is somehow better for it.
It is better for it. That isn't insulting to anyone.
The Federation and Star Fleet is an idealistic view on the path of Humanity. A Humanity that has been able to come together and puts all its myriad of differences aside in favor of unity and celebration of those differences rather than conflict as a result of them. One that no longer sees conflict with itself as something tolerable. But still understands conflict is out there.
The Klingons are the side of Humanity that seems to love war. Craves conflict and struggles with being at peace.
The Romulans are the side of Humanity that represents our hidden agendas, internal power struggles and political scheming.
The Cardassians seem to represent places like North Korea, China, and other emerging/struggling to remain relevant third world or upcoming economic powers.
The Borg were born out of fears of a forced unity, a western view of what Communism represents. The USSR.
Well um... was there any ever argument that Starfleet is not a navy? I mean I always assumed it was. The Enterprise (as shown in Star Trek: Enterprise's theme song and in Captain Archer's ready room) was first the name of the H.M.S Enterprise. A NAVAL vessel. And then it was the U.S.S. Enterprise, an aircraft carrier. Again NAVAL. Then it was the shuttle Enterprise, but 2 out of 3 is not bad. The name Enterprise has history of naval use!
Because the observable facts of the setting are now to be dismissed as opinion.
When you dismiss the rules of screenwriting as opinion, this is fair
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I'm sorry, you had something to say about the massive list of military traits of Star Fleet in episode after episode vs. two characters blurting out "but we're not really military'? With other characters just as plainly blurting out 'yeah, you are.'
Comments
I'm going with this. Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck, but for some it's a sparrow. Sorry kids, MILITARY. Get over it.
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http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
But nobody has done so. And it's hard to have a reasonable debate if one side suddenly gets all emotional and starts to get loud. That's how Trumps' republicans end discussions but not how it should work.
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Let's not talk politics, not like Hillary had half the DNC walk out on her during her speech or anything.
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It wasn't about politics, but I felt it was a good way to illustrate irrational emotional behaviour in a discussion that should rely simply on facts.
If anyone in this discussion gets emotional they shouldn't be surprised that others lose their interest in continuing this. But they should also not confuse pushing people away with having the better arguments.
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Earth once upon a time (i.e. NOW) was a militaristic mess that evolved into a peaceful society of explorers and diplomats. It makes sense that as society evolved so too did the military to a more peaceful position. The military still operates during peace time, the Federation ensures this is the norm not constant warfare which is what sets them apart from the Klingons say who aim for war and battle.
Terminology evolves, we know that Starfleet has militaristic history by design, but has evolved further to service a peaceful society.
A primary roll doesnt have to be what an org' does most of the time in an active roll, its what is done as the first consideration of its tactical and strategic mission planning and execution.
Hate to say it, but you're wrong. It has shown time and again, that if there is a threat to the Federation, the Enterprise is diverted from what ever non-combat oriented mission it is on. While some of the episodes used non-combat means to solve what ever the crew was sent to (not a bad thing at all).
First, to illustrate my point, I will start off with an analogy or two.
One:
There are a group of scientists in a lab somewhere in the USA. A group of three criminals break in to steal research data for another company, essentially industrial espionage. A few of the scientists are concealed weapons owners and fire at the intruders, who are armed with guns and threatening to kill the scientists unless they hand over the goods. The scientists draw there weapons and fire at the intruders, killing two and injuring one. They call the police and the incident is wrapped up, and they go back to researching the next day.
(Yes, there are some holes, like "Why are they caring guns at work" and such, but please bear with it, I am trying to illustrate a point.)
Two:
There are a group of scientists in a lab. There nation goes to war. They get drafted and serve in the war. At the end of it, they return to there jobs at home.
Now, in both situations, peaceful people defend themselves/serve there nation in a conflict situation. Either defending themselves for one day or for a war, they stepped out of the role of peaceful persons doing research to a combative persons defending a goal/entity/item of value.
Does this make them 100% combative and warrior like? NO. Does it mean they can defend themselves in an organized manor? YES.
Starfleet is the exact same. They are peaceful until they need to defend themselves, but they carry that defense with them in case it is necessary. That defense may come in the form of a warship, but if it is the way you must carry that defense with you, than so be it. Starfleet is a militarized organization, not a military organization. Big difference. A group of people carrying guns is a different kind of people depending on intent. It could be for defense or aggression, but you do not know unless you ask those people there intent.
In regards to court marshals and other things related to a real life military, they are simply part of there system. Starfleet models itself off of a navy because it is the most effective system of organization. Using what works helps make there system, organization of duties, and conduct run smoother, become more productive, and keep things in order. Yes, they borrow things like a court marshal procedure and naval ranks and such because it works. There entity is so large that it makes sense. If they decided to totally reinvent the wheel for there organization, do you think it would really work? The time, effort, regulations, decisions, and manpower that would have to be sunk into an entirely new system? It would be more risky and susceptible to failure than a system that multiple founders of the federation and more have structured themselves in the past. Take what works, and apply it.
In regards to Kirk's comment, the ship is under the authority of the United Earth Space Probe Agency to serve in Starfleet which is entity that serves the United Federation of Planets.
And I am not stuck at the word military, I just think they are more of a militarized entity due to the way it exists. It is a fictional entity, and draws off of multiple elements of a non-fictional world. That means it falls into its own separate category.
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Time travel and glass-cannon ships hurt my head and is NOT what Trek is about. Trek is exploration, becoming better as a species, and gaining scientific knowledge while holding on to the traditions that got us where were are.
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You Just figured this out after what 50 years of Trek in film, TV , Books and comics. Amazing.
The insulting part is the insinuation that Starfleet has evolved to no longer be a military and is somehow better for it.
If that is what the fact's present, than yes.
Come stand with us in supporting Star Trek: The Animated Series content for STO! (It's canon!) #TASforSTO
Time travel and glass-cannon ships hurt my head and is NOT what Trek is about. Trek is exploration, becoming better as a species, and gaining scientific knowledge while holding on to the traditions that got us where were are.
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My character Tsin'xing
But that's the thing. All the facts and evidence (sans 2 or 3 quotes whose purpose eludes me) over the 20+ seasons of the show reinforce the fact that Starfleet is used as a military force, in peace keeping and war time operations.
It is what it is.
I don't know why having to give it a different name makes anyone feel any differently about Starfleet is.
They perform a military role, there is no other form of military in the Federation, therefore, Starfleet is the Federation's military. We can use a different name if that would make people happy, but it would just be a synonym and wouldn't actually change what Starfleet is.
In fact, go back a couple of hundred years and virtually ALL civilian oceanic sailing vessels were armed. Many Indiaman's from various nations were heavily armed enough to even rival regular warships.
Weapons carried for defensive purposes only, which is something several Starfleet captains have stated about their ships weapons when challenged about it.
@alexraptorr
If the ships were armed only as a measure of self defense, they wouldnt need crews ranging from 500-1000 to run the ships, they would also be able to run more, and smaller vessels that would be able to evade/outrun its attackers because directly engaging a hostile risks a "non-military" crew to injury and death because (again) combat is not thier job.
There is also a big difference in being able to fend off "pirates", and engaging and destroying a major powers "ship of the line", a non-military vessel is committing suicide if it engages a major powers ship of the line.
Best comment so far.
Thank you for the read Aphelionmarauder
Also has court marshals, General Orders, Starfleet penitentiaries for breaking regulations, being put at the Position of Attention when being yelled at, but somehow is NOT a military.
Just military like when those who say it's not a military suits them.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
That does not however make it a Military.
The ranks, regulations, courts, etc are a form of organization that adheres to and respects a chain of command.
Something necessary for a large organization to function.
This is not military specific.
They could have made Starfleet corporate. CEO, CFO, Branch Managers, Managers, Tech I, Tech II, etc etc etc.
For those thinking that we are somehow looking down on the Military of today. That isn't fair.
Personally, I love, admire, and greatly respect the Men and Women who have the guts that I don't.
Without them, this world would not exist as it currently does. And I don't mean only the results of armed conflict.
They are so much more.
EvilMark44 said
It is better for it. That isn't insulting to anyone.
The Federation and Star Fleet is an idealistic view on the path of Humanity. A Humanity that has been able to come together and puts all its myriad of differences aside in favor of unity and celebration of those differences rather than conflict as a result of them. One that no longer sees conflict with itself as something tolerable. But still understands conflict is out there.
The Klingons are the side of Humanity that seems to love war. Craves conflict and struggles with being at peace.
The Romulans are the side of Humanity that represents our hidden agendas, internal power struggles and political scheming.
The Cardassians seem to represent places like North Korea, China, and other emerging/struggling to remain relevant third world or upcoming economic powers.
The Borg were born out of fears of a forced unity, a western view of what Communism represents. The USSR.
You're are entitled to your own opinion.
When you dismiss the rules of screenwriting as opinion, this is fair
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What rule of screen writing did you have in mind?