The punch line is there really are people you can talk to who when you explain that "a pick-up truck generally has four wheels, an engine, an enclosed cab, and a cargo bed" they'll nod agreeably. Then when you show them a vehicle that has four wheels, an engine, an enclosed cab, and a cargo bed they will stamp their feet and tell you "no, that's a bicycle, because my daddy said so."
I do see your pick-up truck and I am ready to call it a pick-up truck. But Starfleet also owns racing cars and the odd sedan. Just because you regularily see a pick up truck driving down your street doesn't mean that's all there is, and thus you cannot say "ah, he owns a pick-up truck, so I know everything about him".
Similarily, Starfleet does provide the military services needed for the UFP, but it's not all there is to it. Granted, we see this part very prominently.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
Lets have over a quarter million active duty personnel. Another 50 thousand trained reservists. Tanks, jet fighters, destroyers, and even submarines. Organized into armies, under the command of a 4-star general. And right here in this forum we have people saying "oh, they're not a military because A POLITICIAN TOLD ME SO."
Its not the staggering lapse of critical thinking skills that frightens me. It's the fact those people can vote...
This is not about what a politician said. Star Trek is not real. It's a piece of fiction which's rules are set by the writers. The plot of the last Star Trek movie is
a ex military commander goes all genocidal crazy because he is tramatized from the military being disbanded and his new job in Starfleet was to make peaceful contact with aliens instead of shooting them. Of course there was the feeling of being abandoned after getting lost in the nebula, but this is his stated motivation
I don't know how often people have to bring that point up. Fromw hat we see on screen Starfleet performs a lot of military duties, this is true. They are the organisation tasked with the defense of the Federation, also true. Nobody denies that. Yet it is written they are not a military organisation and that's even a major plot point and you have to accept canon, simple as that. You can have a different opinion, though. I have different opinions on large portions of canon as well, that doesn't change them magically.
Your other point is a political/social RL issue which really has nothing to do with this topic and could easily derail the whole thread.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Again, no one saying Star Fleet is manifestly a military organization has ever said that being one precludes them doing other things on top of that. Or that individual members' hearts can't lie more with their non-martial assignments over having to take up arms in defense of their people... which might lead them to make statements about the organization as the wish it were rather than as it is. Star Fleet is obviously a multi-role organization that encompassed virtually everything the Federation does outside the confines of an atmosphere. Extending the analogy, Star Fleet is a whole parking lot of vehicles. The mystery is why some people gravitate so fiercely to the handful of in-character claims that "oh no, we'd never have a tank in our lovely futuristic parking lot" while they're standing on one as if by saying so that would make it true in the face of overwhelming examples to the contrary.
It's a dispute between "They're military plus other stuff, duh" vs. "They're not military at all - right after we to do linguistic triple backflips to show you can operate entire navies of ships that can go toe to toe with the full-fledged warships of the other major powers, use military organizational structures and courtesies at every turn, unveil cunning and effective tactics that I guess just spontaneously appeared in our computer banks with the character's name on them as if they'd personally crafted them, and win entire interstellar wars... but don't call it a military, 'cuz we're too enlightened for that."
IIRC, Japan is also changing its Constitution to lift some restrictions on their ability to conduct military operations.
Doesn't really change that in Star Trek, they insist on calling Starfleet being "not a military".
In the end, it's a label that can be useful, but it can be misleading, too. Just because you consider what it does military, or how it's structured, that it will always act like that. Because this is the utopian future of humanity, Starfleet does often handle things differently then a "military" is expected to.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I have to admit, dropping in on this thread between various in-game activities, every time I hear the freighter captain in the Na'kuhl Temporal Raiders red alert plead "We're not military" all I can think is "Don't look at me to save you... We're not military either! Or so I'm vigorously told..."
I have to admit, dropping in on this thread between various in-game activities, every time I hear the freighter captain in the Na'kuhl Temporal Raiders red alert plead "We're not military" all I can think is "Don't look at me to save you... We're not military either! Or so I'm vigorously told..."
He's probably not Federation anyway. After all, there is a Lukari Captain among those Freighters, AFAIK they aren't member of the Federation yet.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
"But yeah... you don't send your police to other continents to assist with military actions, not even defensive ones like manning an installation."
Actually, that happens. The EU deploys a lot of police missions to trouble spots to help with peacekeeping missions.
Iceland's defence is its coast guard, are they a military just because they have defence responsibilities? Not every country works like America and were talking about outer space here...
The actual police officers or soldiers sent to do police functions?
Actual police officers. At least Germany has quite a few international police missions to Sudan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Ukraine, Lybia and others, although as far as I know the officers aren't actually there to provide policing functions but assist in the training of local police. So while police is sent to help in trouble spots it's not really the same as sending soldiers or UN peacekeeping forces there. However, German GSG9 operates internationally and is a police unit.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The actual police officers or soldiers sent to do police functions?
Actual police officers. At least Germany has quite a few international police missions to Sudan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Ukraine, Lybia and others, although as far as I know the officers aren't actually there to provide policing functions but assist in the training of local police. So while police is sent to help in trouble spots it's not really the same as sending soldiers or UN peacekeeping forces there. However, German GSG9 operates internationally and is a police unit.
Training the locals is a lot different than being sent their to run missions. The JSDF does actual missions as part of the Coalition.
As mentioned by nikeix, Aegis is Greek for shield. it is used as a term for defensive systems in many places. From your own link "The word "Aegis" is a reference that dates back to Greek mythology, with connotations of a protective shield, as the Aegis was the buckler (shield) of Zeus, worn by Athena."
The present arms stance is also used in lots of places, you have probably seen a relative of the stance used by many high school marching bands.
ENT era MACO was not Starfleet. It was United Earth Military.
STO era MACO is a bit fuzzy, it is unclear if it is a part of Starfleet, a school of training, or an organization that Starfleet supports crosstraining with. (Similar fuzziness applies to Task Force Omega, while the original Battle Group Omega was part of Starfleet, its current incarnation seems to be somewhat of its own thing.)
The Motto is in Latin, that means it is a military force? What?
I do wonder where oliviaclaire paints the line on what is a military and what is a police force. People bring up the JDF, a armed defense force sort of acts like a military. Another good one to ask about is the US Coast Guard, a armed police force that sort of acts like a military. The coast guard mission is normally maritime law enforcement, and reports to Homeland Security, but during times of war that can be changed to maritime defense and reporting to the Navy. Are they a police naval force that is sometimes a military naval force, or are they always military that just normally polices?
US law is a bit wiggly on it as well, often calling the USCG as part of the "armed" forces like the Navy, Army and Air Force, but is not subject to the Posse Comitatus Act which only applies to the "military" forces. The USCG uses armed ships, but not warships. They are "Cutters" not Cruisers or Destroyers, even though they carry the same weapons and other systems (the Aegis system for example).
Or do we go all in and say there is no line between Military and Police? If we want to get picky, anyone with a weapon and part of an organization could be called part of a military force. Thus, are police a military force?
Being part of a government is not necessary, are gangs military forces?
Uniforms are often counted, but not necessary is the NRA a military force?
The weapon doesn't even need to be a gun, is a Renaissance club a military force?
Bottom line, Starfleet is a scientific space exploration organization that has a structure modeled on the military (as does NASA, which Starfleet is a direct philosophical descendant of) and that has as PART of its mission profile tactical and strategic defense. That's it, period, end of story.
Bottom line, the Calypso, the greatest ship of exploration in the modern era, doesn't mount so much as a pintel-mounted .50-cal for defense. Every version of the Enterprise has bristled with enough weaponry to devastate entire planets.
Why are you so afraid of the word "military"? Why does it bother you that Starfleet might be made up of a cadre of dedicated, highly-trained men and women and others who have sworn their lives to a cause greater than themselves?
LMAO you do know Calypso was a CONVERTED WARSHIP RIGHT? She was a MINE SWEEPER! Go on scurry off and look it up!
If the ships were armed only as a measure of self defense, they wouldnt need crews ranging from 500-1000 to run the ships, they would also be able to run more, and smaller vessels that would be able to evade/outrun its attackers because directly engaging a hostile risks a "non-military" crew to injury and death because (again) combat is not thier job.
There is also a big difference in being able to fend off "pirates", and engaging and destroying a major powers "ship of the line", a non-military vessel is committing suicide if it engages a major powers ship of the line.
Let me ask you something... Have you EVER served in the Navy? Obvioulsy not. The reason for large crews is pretty much for Damge control and also to make sure there are enough warm bodies to keep things running if the ship takes casualites. Most modern comabt ships could fight and win quite well with much smaller crew that is if nothing broke or was damaged in combat or crew lost in action. Yeah by the way guy I AM A NAVY VETERAN. So don't even try to argue.
Again, no one saying Star Fleet is manifestly a military organization has ever said that being one precludes them doing other things on top of that. Or that individual members' hearts can't lie more with their non-martial assignments over having to take up arms in defense of their people... which might lead them to make statements about the organization as the wish it were rather than as it is. Star Fleet is obviously a multi-role organization that encompassed virtually everything the Federation does outside the confines of an atmosphere. Extending the analogy, Star Fleet is a whole parking lot of vehicles. The mystery is why some people gravitate so fiercely to the handful of in-character claims that "oh no, we'd never have a tank in our lovely futuristic parking lot" while they're standing on one as if by saying so that would make it true in the face of overwhelming examples to the contrary.
It's a dispute between "They're military plus other stuff, duh" vs. "They're not military at all - right after we to do linguistic triple backflips to show you can operate entire navies of ships that can go toe to toe with the full-fledged warships of the other major powers, use military organizational structures and courtesies at every turn, unveil cunning and effective tactics that I guess just spontaneously appeared in our computer banks with the character's name on them as if they'd personally crafted them, and win entire interstellar wars... but don't call it a military, 'cuz we're too enlightened for that."
Not on topic, but this did remind me of something. Not terribly long ago the Tampa police gave a press statement about how the police were not militarizing in front of a tank with their logo on it. They just called it an "Armored Rescue Vehicle" not an "Infantry Fighting Vehicle" like a military force would.
Half the stuff the characters say is BS anyway. Like all the lies about the Federation not having money. If they have no money then how did Crusher pay for the fabric at Farpoint? If they have no money why does Kirk tell Scotty he earned his pay for the week? If they have no money how dies Riker have anything to bet on Dabo to accumulate the Latinum Quark owed him? It's a total load, just something they say to people from a lower tech culture
I think you are off on a wrong tangent. There was always talk of credits in the series this to me was a form of virtual currency rather like todays Paypal or Bitcoin. I feel they were refering to "hard currency" like the Pound or Dollar or Euro. So yeah by that they had no "money".
Comments
I do see your pick-up truck and I am ready to call it a pick-up truck. But Starfleet also owns racing cars and the odd sedan. Just because you regularily see a pick up truck driving down your street doesn't mean that's all there is, and thus you cannot say "ah, he owns a pick-up truck, so I know everything about him".
Similarily, Starfleet does provide the military services needed for the UFP, but it's not all there is to it. Granted, we see this part very prominently.
This is not about what a politician said. Star Trek is not real. It's a piece of fiction which's rules are set by the writers. The plot of the last Star Trek movie is
I don't know how often people have to bring that point up. Fromw hat we see on screen Starfleet performs a lot of military duties, this is true. They are the organisation tasked with the defense of the Federation, also true. Nobody denies that. Yet it is written they are not a military organisation and that's even a major plot point and you have to accept canon, simple as that. You can have a different opinion, though. I have different opinions on large portions of canon as well, that doesn't change them magically.
Your other point is a political/social RL issue which really has nothing to do with this topic and could easily derail the whole thread.
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It's a dispute between "They're military plus other stuff, duh" vs. "They're not military at all - right after we to do linguistic triple backflips to show you can operate entire navies of ships that can go toe to toe with the full-fledged warships of the other major powers, use military organizational structures and courtesies at every turn, unveil cunning and effective tactics that I guess just spontaneously appeared in our computer banks with the character's name on them as if they'd personally crafted them, and win entire interstellar wars... but don't call it a military, 'cuz we're too enlightened for that."
Doesn't really change that in Star Trek, they insist on calling Starfleet being "not a military".
In the end, it's a label that can be useful, but it can be misleading, too. Just because you consider what it does military, or how it's structured, that it will always act like that. Because this is the utopian future of humanity, Starfleet does often handle things differently then a "military" is expected to.
He's probably not Federation anyway. After all, there is a Lukari Captain among those Freighters, AFAIK they aren't member of the Federation yet.
Actually, that happens. The EU deploys a lot of police missions to trouble spots to help with peacekeeping missions.
Iceland's defence is its coast guard, are they a military just because they have defence responsibilities? Not every country works like America and were talking about outer space here...
My character Tsin'xing
Actual police officers. At least Germany has quite a few international police missions to Sudan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Ukraine, Lybia and others, although as far as I know the officers aren't actually there to provide policing functions but assist in the training of local police. So while police is sent to help in trouble spots it's not really the same as sending soldiers or UN peacekeeping forces there. However, German GSG9 operates internationally and is a police unit.
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My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
As mentioned by nikeix, Aegis is Greek for shield. it is used as a term for defensive systems in many places. From your own link "The word "Aegis" is a reference that dates back to Greek mythology, with connotations of a protective shield, as the Aegis was the buckler (shield) of Zeus, worn by Athena."
The present arms stance is also used in lots of places, you have probably seen a relative of the stance used by many high school marching bands.
ENT era MACO was not Starfleet. It was United Earth Military.
STO era MACO is a bit fuzzy, it is unclear if it is a part of Starfleet, a school of training, or an organization that Starfleet supports crosstraining with. (Similar fuzziness applies to Task Force Omega, while the original Battle Group Omega was part of Starfleet, its current incarnation seems to be somewhat of its own thing.)
The Motto is in Latin, that means it is a military force? What?
I do wonder where oliviaclaire paints the line on what is a military and what is a police force. People bring up the JDF, a armed defense force sort of acts like a military. Another good one to ask about is the US Coast Guard, a armed police force that sort of acts like a military. The coast guard mission is normally maritime law enforcement, and reports to Homeland Security, but during times of war that can be changed to maritime defense and reporting to the Navy. Are they a police naval force that is sometimes a military naval force, or are they always military that just normally polices?
US law is a bit wiggly on it as well, often calling the USCG as part of the "armed" forces like the Navy, Army and Air Force, but is not subject to the Posse Comitatus Act which only applies to the "military" forces. The USCG uses armed ships, but not warships. They are "Cutters" not Cruisers or Destroyers, even though they carry the same weapons and other systems (the Aegis system for example).
Or do we go all in and say there is no line between Military and Police? If we want to get picky, anyone with a weapon and part of an organization could be called part of a military force. Thus, are police a military force?
Being part of a government is not necessary, are gangs military forces?
Uniforms are often counted, but not necessary is the NRA a military force?
The weapon doesn't even need to be a gun, is a Renaissance club a military force?
LMAO you do know Calypso was a CONVERTED WARSHIP RIGHT? She was a MINE SWEEPER! Go on scurry off and look it up!
Let me ask you something... Have you EVER served in the Navy? Obvioulsy not. The reason for large crews is pretty much for Damge control and also to make sure there are enough warm bodies to keep things running if the ship takes casualites. Most modern comabt ships could fight and win quite well with much smaller crew that is if nothing broke or was damaged in combat or crew lost in action. Yeah by the way guy I AM A NAVY VETERAN. So don't even try to argue.
Not on topic, but this did remind me of something. Not terribly long ago the Tampa police gave a press statement about how the police were not militarizing in front of a tank with their logo on it. They just called it an "Armored Rescue Vehicle" not an "Infantry Fighting Vehicle" like a military force would.
I think you are off on a wrong tangent. There was always talk of credits in the series this to me was a form of virtual currency rather like todays Paypal or Bitcoin. I feel they were refering to "hard currency" like the Pound or Dollar or Euro. So yeah by that they had no "money".