(...) Do realise actors want to express something in their lines which often falls back to their personal opinion on the role and the story they play.(...)
This is literally the opposite of what it means to act.
Take a look at it, uniforms, a military command structure, ranks, they fight, are engaged in combat, not beside the real military, but always on their own or alongside allies.
None of that makes them a military organization.
Military organization does not equal military function.
TRIBBLE it. The thread is literally running circles, nobody bothers to read all those pages and thus repeats arguments over and over again in a endless cycle.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Real-world military forces also maintain craft whose purpose is entirely peaceful. For instance, there's the USAF's X-37B unmanned orbiter, a device which (like the Ent-D herself) could be used as a weapon, but whose apparent purpose is not warlike in the least. Or the large number of cargo aircraft maintained by that same service - in what sane sense could a C-17 Globemaster be regarded as a "warship"? (Yes, yes, it can carry a couple of tanks - or, more commonly, thousands of tons of food and humanitarian supplies.)
The Coast Guard (and if you want to tell them they're not a military service, go ahead - but let me know first, I want to sell tickets) has an entire fleet of aircraft, both fixed- and rotary-wing, devoted to the cause of search-and-rescue, which is about as peaceful as a military mission gets.
As for missions of exploration, there isn't a lot of that left on this planet (although the US Navy is actively involved in ocean-floor exploration and supply of McMurdo Station in Antarctica), but the Apollo missions, constructed by NASA (an arm of the US government), were flown and operated by US military forces. The only reason they weren't flown under the auspices of the USAF was the Outer Space Treaty of 1968.
Starfleet is merely the extension of these ideas into deep space. "Military" doesn't necessarily mean "war machine", as those of us who are veterans have tried several times to point out...
Also, the Royal Navy operate HMS Echo and HMS Enterprise, which are unarmed Arctic survey ships.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Starfleet doesn't "view itself" as a military organization? Is that why they have to follow orders, even when they disagree with them?
I mean, Crash views himself as a mythological lizard, but that doesn't change what he is, now does it?
You mean all the times the crew protested and downright denied following orders without any serious consequences? The only time someone said they "have to" follow orders was in a weirdly out-of-character moment from Picard shouting at Wesley - the precise opposite of what he had said sometime earlier in the show. And how is following an order trademark of a military organization?
I'm sure @crashdragon will value your statement the next time he's about to unclog his shower due to shed scales. You think bristles are bad? I wouldn't want to trade with a dragon
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
In Undiscovered Country (I watched it again the other day) one of the officers at the meeting, asked if it would 'mean dismantling the star fleet', to which someone else, said that the exploration aspects would continue... I'd say that Starfleet is a military organisation, but not necessarily the same as what we in the 21st century would call a military, and a military which does more than just going round shooting stuff and waging war... As mentioned, the USCG is probably the closest comparison.
Just think how boring First Contact would have been, if, when Picard says he's about to commit a direct violation of their orders, someone pistolwhipped him (for the lols) and put him under arrest...
Would you care to give an actual rebuttal other than you think it is unintelligent, please? As is I have nothing to reply to.
Hard to do when our posts are ignored in favor of continuing a false narrative about your perceived opposition, in this thread.
The rebuttals have already been given.
Would you care to give an actual rebuttal other than you think it is unintelligent, please? As is I have nothing to reply to.
Hard to do when our posts are ignored in favor of continuing a false narrative about your perceived opposition, in this thread.
The rebuttals have already been given.
I could accept that, save all said was that my post on why some people are still arguing the military vs. not military notion and why the idea military is ugly. Was to say it was the dumbest thing you have read.
I am trying to determine if you believe my position that some honestly believe all evil comes from Military. Or those people are the dumbest things you have heard of. (Ex-military myself and some of these yahoos are related to me. It is how I know I did the right thing enlisting, when they disapproved.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
...Military means war and to those that have not served....
I never served and military does not mean "war" to me. That's a ridiculous statement as far as I'm concerned. Not everyone who has served has done so in a period of war, not to mention the myriad of humanitarian and relief efforts the military contributes to.
Why do many posters here insist that Starfleet is not military? Because their bible said so. And their faith demands they agree to this devotedly. No matter any contradictions. This is for all intents and purposes is a religious debate.
Your post was reasonably ok up to this point, then you lost all credibility IMO.
First you do not seem to be a dissenter on the opinion. You have been more moderate in your answers as I have read them. With your belief that how long you can suspend your disbelief determines how people feel.
But looking at some posters on both sides it is sounding less like 'Here is my opinion and my support' and more 'these ten points prove I am right and no other facts can change my faith.' And this goes for the ones insisting Starfleet is military and some saying it isn't. Gene envisioned a great dream that has great potential. Others used that dream and setting to tell military tales. Getting hung up on if Starfleet is or is not a military means some how ignoring that one or the other is there. And it does sound like people arguing religion now.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Comments
This is literally the opposite of what it means to act.
None of that makes them a military organization.
Military organization does not equal military function.
TRIBBLE it. The thread is literally running circles, nobody bothers to read all those pages and thus repeats arguments over and over again in a endless cycle.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Also, the Royal Navy operate HMS Echo and HMS Enterprise, which are unarmed Arctic survey ships.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
I mean, Crash views himself as a mythological lizard, but that doesn't change what he is, now does it?
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
You mean all the times the crew protested and downright denied following orders without any serious consequences? The only time someone said they "have to" follow orders was in a weirdly out-of-character moment from Picard shouting at Wesley - the precise opposite of what he had said sometime earlier in the show. And how is following an order trademark of a military organization?
I'm sure @crashdragon will value your statement the next time he's about to unclog his shower due to shed scales. You think bristles are bad? I wouldn't want to trade with a dragon
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Just think how boring First Contact would have been, if, when Picard says he's about to commit a direct violation of their orders, someone pistolwhipped him (for the lols) and put him under arrest...
Would you care to give an actual rebuttal other than you think it is unintelligent, please? As is I have nothing to reply to.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Hard to do when our posts are ignored in favor of continuing a false narrative about your perceived opposition, in this thread.
The rebuttals have already been given.
I could accept that, save all said was that my post on why some people are still arguing the military vs. not military notion and why the idea military is ugly. Was to say it was the dumbest thing you have read.
I am trying to determine if you believe my position that some honestly believe all evil comes from Military. Or those people are the dumbest things you have heard of. (Ex-military myself and some of these yahoos are related to me. It is how I know I did the right thing enlisting, when they disapproved.)
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I think McDonalds have conquered the world...
This thread lost it's way ages ago
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
First you do not seem to be a dissenter on the opinion. You have been more moderate in your answers as I have read them. With your belief that how long you can suspend your disbelief determines how people feel.
But looking at some posters on both sides it is sounding less like 'Here is my opinion and my support' and more 'these ten points prove I am right and no other facts can change my faith.' And this goes for the ones insisting Starfleet is military and some saying it isn't. Gene envisioned a great dream that has great potential. Others used that dream and setting to tell military tales. Getting hung up on if Starfleet is or is not a military means some how ignoring that one or the other is there. And it does sound like people arguing religion now.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.