Or do we go all in and say there is no line between Military and Police? If we want to get picky, anyone with a weapon and part of an organization could be called part of a military force. Thus, are police a military force?
Being part of a government is not necessary, are gangs military forces?
Uniforms are often counted, but not necessary is the NRA a military force?
The weapon doesn't even need to be a gun, is a Renaissance club a military force?
All questions which are pretty casually resolved when you set the bar at "The military is the State's instrument of war." Most of them do other stuff when not a war. But when war breaks out the cops stay cops and the Coast Guard is part of the fight.
Its also why we have terms like 'paramilitary' to describe groups that have the training, organization, and weaponry associated with militaries, but are not part of the State. And they noticeably have to enforce their internal rules via civil law not military law/court martials. While it's maybe distressing to see our police in the USA become more and more (para)militarized, the bottom line is cops are held to civil standards, not the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The high minded ideals of the two groups also use different langue - police 'keep the peace', militaries 'defend the nation'.
Gangs are kind of funny... if traditional governance breaks down enough they can become the de facto government of their territory. Plenty of bullet-riddled hellholes in Africa where it'd be hard to argue the gangs aren't the military in that region. Or, you know, Compton .
The USA is actually a bit unusual in prohibiting its military from performing police tasks (usually) - clearly somebody thought it was a good idea for them NOT to get accustomed to bossing their own civilians around - another quirk of American culture that was folded into Star Trek wholesale: while Star Fleet fights wars, they don't seem to be the principle cops of the setting. Though there the futurist "optimism" some folks are so proud of may genuinely have reduced the amount of crime to levels that are no longer dramatically interesting. Though again people who actually live the life know that a huge percentage of murders have exactly nothing to do with financial or material need, so while replicators are neat, it hardly seems likely that the Federation is entirely without homicide detectives.
Half the stuff the characters say is BS anyway. Like all the lies about the Federation not having money. If they have no money then how did Crusher pay for the fabric at Farpoint? If they have no money why does Kirk tell Scotty he earned his pay for the week? If they have no money how dies Riker have anything to bet on Dabo to accumulate the Latinum Quark owed him? It's a total load, just something they say to people from a lower tech culture
I think you are off on a wrong tangent. There was always talk of credits in the series this to me was a form of virtual currency rather like todays Paypal or Bitcoin. I feel they were refering to "hard currency" like the Pound or Dollar or Euro. So yeah by that they had no "money".
The JDF is a military. In the immortal words of Abraham Lincoln, "Calling a tail a leg does not make it one."
You're free to that opinion, but legally they are not. By law, they are an extension of the police force and have important operational restrictions that an average military does not have. They do not call themselves a military and they don't operate like one despite the US wanting them to change and the Abe government trying to bring about those desired changes. They still can not and do not take part in offensive combat operations, which is a very important restriction pretty much no other force on earth has. It's the difference between an attack dog and a guard dog, the latter is on a leash and can only bite you if you come into its territory. The teeth are the same, but how they can use them is different.
But like I told Markhawkman above, it doesn't matter what you or I think. The JDF does not identify itself as a military, and they can't do the things a regular military can do regardless of your opinion. Saying "oh it's ok Jonsills and Markhawkman said you're a military so do whatever you want" makes no difference when the law they're chartered under and the Japanese constitution says differently. They follow the law that governs them, which explicitly states they're not a military, not your opinion that says they are.
Same goes for Starfleet.
How could you be so easily tricked and fooled by them playing word games???
As I said before, you are free to believe that it's a distinction without difference but the fact remains that in both law and nomenclature the distinction does exist. You can argue whether it's a meaningful distinction or not, and many have, but it is simple and inarguable fact that the distinction is there.
What is the distinction?
There is none. In terms of starfleet, the entire argument is simply "it's not a military because Picard and Scotty said so!" I wonder what everyone would say about this if those lines were never spoken, because it's literally the only "evidence" they have.
Oh yeah heres a fact about a military organization that you may not know and has a it's counterpart in Star Trek. The U.S.Navy my branch BESIDES the combat assets operate MANY pure research ships. They range from submersibles to surface ships to ROV's and more. A current example of this is the Neil Armstrong class of AGOR. Hulls numbers AGOR-27 and 28. Go take a look at navsource.org and you will find the long history of naval reasearch vessels they date way back to the very early days of the Navy. So Star Fleet reflects this with the Grissoms adn other Science ships as well.
And David Markus says exactly the opposite about Star Fleet with some organizational and logistical issues in the movie to support his irritation.
I'm considering trawling the entirety of the TNG scripts because I'm pretty sure I remember an admiral or two dressing Picard down for his hippy ways, or at least gently reminding him he's in command of a fully armed warship and not every day will he be at leisure to indulge his passion of archeology. Those are just the good days, long may they last.
Or do we go all in and say there is no line between Military and Police? If we want to get picky, anyone with a weapon and part of an organization could be called part of a military force. Thus, are police a military force?
Being part of a government is not necessary, are gangs military forces?
Uniforms are often counted, but not necessary is the NRA a military force?
The weapon doesn't even need to be a gun, is a Renaissance club a military force?
All questions which are pretty casually resolved when you set the bar at "The military is the State's instrument of war." Most of them do other stuff when not a war. But when war breaks out the cops stay cops and the Coast Guard is part of the fight.
Its also why we have terms like 'paramilitary' to describe groups that have the training, organization, and weaponry associated with militaries, but are not part of the State. And they noticeably have to enforce their internal rules via civil law not military law/court martials. While it's maybe distressing to see our police in the USA become more and more (para)militarized, the bottom line is cops are held to civil standards, not the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The high minded ideals of the two groups also use different langue - police 'keep the peace', militaries 'defend the nation'.
Gangs are kind of funny... if traditional governance breaks down enough they can become the de facto government of their territory. Plenty of bullet-riddled hellholes in Africa where it'd be hard to argue the gangs aren't the military in that region. Or, you know, Compton .
The USA is actually a bit unusual in prohibiting its military from performing police tasks (usually) - clearly somebody thought it was a good idea for them NOT to get accustomed to bossing their own civilians around - another quirk of American culture that was folded into Star Trek wholesale: while Star Fleet fights wars, they don't seem to be the principle cops of the setting. Though there the futurist "optimism" some folks are so proud of may genuinely have reduced the amount of crime to levels that are no longer dramatically interesting. Though again people who actually live the life know that a huge percentage of murders have exactly nothing to do with financial or material need, so while replicators are neat, it hardly seems likely that the Federation is entirely without homicide detectives.
I do understand where you are going, but cops stay cops is a bit of a US view, some other nations's version of police and army reserve are the same. Nations of mainland Europe do not always have a lot of room between police and national defense during an invasion.
Again, I get your argument between civil justice vs military justice. Not so sure about the ideals though. Homeland Security "to ensure a homeland that is safe, secure", I am not sure if that is 'keep the peace' or'defend the nation', it sounds like both.
Yes, organized crime groups like Cosa Nostra and Yakuza have blurred the lines pretty hard at times.
If Starfleet isn't the principle cops of the setting (for off world or multi-world crime) then who is? We see on screen Starfleet inspecting ships and cargo, but I may not be remembering an episode about a homicide that you are referring to.
If starfleet has courts martial then it must be a military, because 'court martial' just means 'military court.'
QED
A pretty good rule of thumb, though not all militaries use court martials (military law is a subset of civilian law rather then its own thing in this case) and sometimes non-military groups have used the term to refer to internal justice systems even if there is nothing military about it.
(...)
I've asked over and over again but none of you have been willing to explain your motive.
It has been said again and again, but it's not like anybody would actually read anything and instead just posts the same things all over.
It's canon. Plain and simple as that. So the premis of this thread is faulty, Starfleet is not a military organization. It performs military tasks and incorporates similiarities as well as dissimiliarities of today's militaries but it's still written as not being one. And that is simply not debateable. And no it's not singular opinions it was exposition. The difference between those has also been explained numerous time but, again, was ignored.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The question is what is your motive for wanting it to be canon?
Why jump through all these insane hoops?
Not your best attempt, druk
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Starfleet might be something like NASA. It is on organisation, it deals with space, its purpose is to develop spaceflight, bring man into space and establish space as a new frontier for man. My own impression for what it is. Let's jump to the future and we have spaceflight as we know it from Star Trek. It is very well possible we still have an organisation like NASA, but very likely we also have an organisation which main purpose is to defend ourselves in space. How would it be called? And where is it. Never has such an organisation be mentioned in the series as I remember (I am not a hardcore fan, so I might be wrong here).
As I figured out in my previous post, if we, Starfleet, is not a military organisation, is not an organisation which has to deal with war and combat, where is the organisation that does that job? I believe Starfleet is a military organisation, but since space is a new frontier, it will also have an important task to explore that new frontier, not in an aggresive way, to conquer, but just to gain knowledge and befriend new life. In the series we viewed mostly the non-combat activities of Starfleet, in the game it is foremost the combat.
Oh yeah heres a fact about a military organization that you may not know and has a it's counterpart in Star Trek. The U.S.Navy my branch BESIDES the combat assets operate MANY pure research ships. They range from submersibles to surface ships to ROV's and more. A current example of this is the Neil Armstrong class of AGOR. Hulls numbers AGOR-27 and 28. Go take a look at navsource.org and you will find the long history of naval reasearch vessels they date way back to the very early days of the Navy. So Star Fleet reflects this with the Grissoms adn other Science ships as well.
Something we have been TRYING TO TELL YOU FOR OVER 11 PAGES GENIUS! That the US Navy has other missions besides sending ships or planes to blow something up and guess what they are STILL a military.
Thankyou for proving our point. Good day.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
Something we have been TRYING TO TELL YOU FOR OVER 11 PAGES GENIUS! That the US Navy has other missions besides sending ships or planes to blow something up and guess what they are STILL a military.
Thankyou for proving our point. Good day.
And you should just turn it around and see that defense is just something Starfleet does as well without being a military organisation. And the latter thing is explicitly told to be true. It's really that simple.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Something we have been TRYING TO TELL YOU FOR OVER 11 PAGES GENIUS! That the US Navy has other missions besides sending ships or planes to blow something up and guess what they are STILL a military.
Thankyou for proving our point. Good day.
And you should just turn it around and see that defense is just something Starfleet does as well without being a military organisation. And the latter thing is explicitly told to be true. It's really that simple.
Defense is something the military does, along with border patrols, smuggling interdiction, Humanitarian assistance, exploration, phenomena monitoring. I mean literally anything Starfleet does you can find a correlation to what the US Navy does.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
(...)
I've asked over and over again but none of you have been willing to explain your motive.
It has been said again and again, but it's not like anybody would actually read anything and instead just posts the same things all over.
It's canon. Plain and simple as that. So the premis of this thread is faulty, Starfleet is not a military organization. It performs military tasks and incorporates similiarities as well as dissimiliarities of today's militaries but it's still written as not being one. And that is simply not debateable. And no it's not singular opinions it was exposition. The difference between those has also been explained numerous time but, again, was ignored.
This should be the end of it, really, but some people with their heels dug in and their heads up their backsides seem to think they know better than Gene f$%#ing Roddenberry and refuse to see the fact that real world analogues or rules do not apply to a fictional organization. It's not a military because the guy who made the whole thing up said so, bottom line. It is canon fact. Nothing said or believed by members of the fandom changes that.
The writers and the creator said so. The argument against it is invalid.
Cept Gene lost control of Star Trek LONG ago. Just like Star Wars has long since grown past George Lucas with Disney buying him out.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
(...)
I've asked over and over again but none of you have been willing to explain your motive.
It has been said again and again, but it's not like anybody would actually read anything and instead just posts the same things all over.
It's canon. Plain and simple as that. So the premis of this thread is faulty, Starfleet is not a military organization. It performs military tasks and incorporates similiarities as well as dissimiliarities of today's militaries but it's still written as not being one. And that is simply not debateable. And no it's not singular opinions it was exposition. The difference between those has also been explained numerous time but, again, was ignored.
This should be the end of it, really, but some people with their heels dug in and their heads up their backsides seem to think they know better than Gene f$%#ing Roddenberry and refuse to see the fact that real world analogues or rules do not apply to a fictional organization. It's not a military because the guy who made the whole thing up said so, bottom line. It is canon fact. Nothing said or believed by members of the fandom changes that.
The writers and the creator said so. The argument against it is invalid.
Cept Gene lost control of Star Trek LONG ago. Just like Star Wars has long since grown past George Lucas with Disney buying him out.
Well, whoever is now in control of Star Trek, he, she or them are still arguing for Starfleet not being a military. Just as recently as Star Trek: Beyond.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Just a question. But everything Gene said is absolute right?
Like Data was made by unknown aliens and was given a physical and considered alive before he joined Starfleet?
So we can throw entire episodes about his origins and personal struggles away because Gene said so right?
The writers 'bible' does say Star Fleet is not a military organization. It also says the above and more that goes contrary to what came later.
I've asked this earlier in this thread, but it was ignored. To those who insist Starfleet is not a military "because Picard and Scotty said so", what would your opinion be if those lines had not been spoken?
I've asked this earlier in this thread, but it was ignored. To those who insist Starfleet is not a military "because Picard and Scotty said so", what would your opinion be if those lines had not been spoken?
You are misportraying the issue by being emotional.
What you call "because Picard and Scotty said so" needs to be extended to include the whole design and writing process behind Star Trek which at numerous points in it's development emphasized this point which was then manifested in canon via exposition dialogue. You are still not getting that in a play there are no people simply "saying" things if the scene doesn't explicitly shows that a statement is a characterisation, joke, homage or whatever.
Now, if there was never such a statement and we had only behind the scenes I'd use that to piece things together. If we didn't and Star Trek would have just "being made" it wouldn't be the same thing any more, but since I know where you go with your question I'd still say for a present day military they have some rather weird habits like how the whole command structure of the ship work (anybody can just take a test and be seated on the bridge, including the counselor). The overall comparison would probably say they are a kind of military.
What you still debate is that despite sharing common features, your military and Starfleet still aproached that point from opposite ends of the spectrum. Militaries started out very different from what they are (at least western ones) and adopted more and more function as time advanced and challenges faced changed. Starfleet started out as a non military (not purely civilian, it was always a government body with some special rules) which while time advanced and challenges changed absorbed the military into the organisation. In both cases though the organisations retained their original apperance.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Starfleet is the military part of the UFP, BUT not all Starfleet ships are 'military' vessels such as the Oberth (Science) and Daedalus (Medical) Class ships. Starfleet does alot of exploration and science missions too you know.
It was said time and time again that Starfleet was not a military organization. It is even mentioned in Star Trek Beyond and is an important part of the plot. Gene Roddenberry said it was not military and so does Memory Alpha:
Starfleet was the deep-space exploratory and defense service maintained by the United Federation of Planets. Its principal functions included the advancement of Federation knowledge about the galaxy and its inhabitants, the advancement of Federation science and technology, the defense of the Federation, and the facilitation of Federation diplomacy.
As per its mandate of deep-space exploration, its personnel were frequently brought into contact with cultures and sentient species whose existences were unknown to the Federation. Starfleet officers therefore acted as official representatives of the Federation in these cases. Starfleet vessels were also frequently used to ferry ambassadors on diplomatic missions.
Starfleet was a civilian organization acting as a successor to various Earth based space agencies such as NASA, the International Space Agency, and others. Its primary function was scientific development and exploration of space.
Starfleet officers functioned as commanders and directors of the service's operations at all levels. The most senior officers ranks were known as flag officer ranks. Officers holding these ranks functioned at the highest levels of command in the service.
You know the canon and themes of Star Trek and Gene Rodenberry (just one creator our of MANY on a project that has gone on decades) parted company many, times right? Are we going to start arguing that they don't have a Prime Directive? 'Cause my understanding is he hated that. As mentioned earlier we had cast expressing concern that the show had gone into military scenarios and themes as early as the first season. This 'Rodenberry Ideal' being held up as a counter to observable facts in the setting is once again calling a pick-up truck a bicycle, 'cause daddy said so.
Folks might enjoy reading the Jack McDevitt 'Academy' novels, a sci-fi series that focuses on and largely stays on track as being about FTL-capable exploration. Conflict, drama, threats to entire civilizations, and NOT hour after hour after hour of stories about acting like and taking on/resolving problems as a military force. It can be done. If you really want a story to not be about a military organization, there's things to write about/show to drive stories onward without people saluting, having court martials, and filling the screen with the clash of warships. Its simply disingenuous to CONSTANTLY draw on the military for your stories and then proclaim, "but oh no, we're far too civilized to be a military" while pulling the trigger on your phaser yet again.
(...)
I've asked over and over again but none of you have been willing to explain your motive.
It has been said again and again, but it's not like anybody would actually read anything and instead just posts the same things all over.
It's canon. Plain and simple as that. So the premis of this thread is faulty, Starfleet is not a military organization. It performs military tasks and incorporates similiarities as well as dissimiliarities of today's militaries but it's still written as not being one. And that is simply not debateable. And no it's not singular opinions it was exposition. The difference between those has also been explained numerous time but, again, was ignored.
This should be the end of it, really, but some people with their heels dug in and their heads up their backsides seem to think they know better than Gene f$%#ing Roddenberry and refuse to see the fact that real world analogues or rules do not apply to a fictional organization. It's not a military because the guy who made the whole thing up said so, bottom line. It is canon fact. Nothing said or believed by members of the fandom changes that.
The writers and the creator said so. The argument against it is invalid.
Because they all speak in one voice so long as that voice supports your position.
Right.
Here's a little something you should read from a source you appear to trust.
Well, whoever is now in control of Star Trek, he, she or them are still arguing for Starfleet not being a military. Just as recently as Star Trek: Beyond.
And that's the funniest thing of all: I'd be willing to watch and see whether Star Fleet is not a military in the Kelvin Timeline. They haven't actually blown it there yet in that setting. While its weird that it would be created hot on the heels of winning a war, in the KT they seemingly DON'T exist in a state of constant threat of war (other than maybe the Klingons, and it's possible Marcus was being a paranoid - we went tearing around their homeworld uninvited and it didn't actually start a war...). I'd still question the sanity of any nation that opted for total disarmament, but I'm not having my face rubbed in that incongruity at every turn.
People complain about the Enterprise getting trashed in every KT movie, but if they're explorers who end up colliding with actual militants, that's a completely plausible outcome.
Up against a ship from 75 years in the future based on some of the most advanced tech of that setting (Borg)? Boom, 9 out of 10 Star Fleet ships die instantly and the tenth only lives because the hostile captain Let It Live. They win the day with a bunch of finagling and daring do and a bomb also from the future.
Go toe to toe with a real warship from the same tech-base and get shredded in seconds, saved only by having a saboteur of the highest caliber aboard the military ship. Yeah, I'd buy that's a explorer solution.
Face off against a hostile fighter swarm and get chewed to bits in seconds. Also sounds like explorers literally walking into an unknown beehive.
So far the KT writers aren't using the Enterprise as a platform for telling military stories. Honestly I thought it bizarre I found pictures on Simon Pegg's Twitter feed of them giving a private screening to the President and the Joint Chiefs. Maybe the producers thought they ought to take the temperature in that particular room before the broader release.
I've asked this earlier in this thread, but it was ignored. To those who insist Starfleet is not a military "because Picard and Scotty said so", what would your opinion be if those lines had not been spoken?
You are misportraying the issue by being emotional.
What you call "because Picard and Scotty said so" needs to be extended to include the whole design and writing process behind Star Trek which at numerous points in it's development emphasized this point which was then manifested in canon via exposition dialogue. You are still not getting that in a play there are no people simply "saying" things if the scene doesn't explicitly shows that a statement is a characterisation, joke, homage or whatever.
Now, if there was never such a statement and we had only behind the scenes I'd use that to piece things together. If we didn't and Star Trek would have just "being made" it wouldn't be the same thing any more, but since I know where you go with your question I'd still say for a present day military they have some rather weird habits like how the whole command structure of the ship work (anybody can just take a test and be seated on the bridge, including the counselor). The overall comparison would probably say they are a kind of military.
What you still debate is that despite sharing common features, your military and Starfleet still aproached that point from opposite ends of the spectrum. Militaries started out very different from what they are (at least western ones) and adopted more and more function as time advanced and challenges faced changed. Starfleet started out as a non military (not purely civilian, it was always a government body with some special rules) which while time advanced and challenges changed absorbed the military into the organisation. In both cases though the organisations retained their original apperance.
And despite all that.... Starfleet is the military of the Federation. Precision of analogies to modern real-world militaries are vague at best and often contradictory due to how different from each other real world militaries can be. But there is one tried and true method of determining what is and isn't a military. If someone attacks the country, who will defend them?
In the case of the United Federation of Planets.... it's Starfleet.
Comments
All questions which are pretty casually resolved when you set the bar at "The military is the State's instrument of war." Most of them do other stuff when not a war. But when war breaks out the cops stay cops and the Coast Guard is part of the fight.
Its also why we have terms like 'paramilitary' to describe groups that have the training, organization, and weaponry associated with militaries, but are not part of the State. And they noticeably have to enforce their internal rules via civil law not military law/court martials. While it's maybe distressing to see our police in the USA become more and more (para)militarized, the bottom line is cops are held to civil standards, not the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The high minded ideals of the two groups also use different langue - police 'keep the peace', militaries 'defend the nation'.
Gangs are kind of funny... if traditional governance breaks down enough they can become the de facto government of their territory. Plenty of bullet-riddled hellholes in Africa where it'd be hard to argue the gangs aren't the military in that region. Or, you know, Compton
The USA is actually a bit unusual in prohibiting its military from performing police tasks (usually) - clearly somebody thought it was a good idea for them NOT to get accustomed to bossing their own civilians around - another quirk of American culture that was folded into Star Trek wholesale: while Star Fleet fights wars, they don't seem to be the principle cops of the setting. Though there the futurist "optimism" some folks are so proud of may genuinely have reduced the amount of crime to levels that are no longer dramatically interesting. Though again people who actually live the life know that a huge percentage of murders have exactly nothing to do with financial or material need, so while replicators are neat, it hardly seems likely that the Federation is entirely without homicide detectives.
Pretty sure they "pay" Scotty in booze...
http://www.drunkard.com/5_02_space-winos/
There is none. In terms of starfleet, the entire argument is simply "it's not a military because Picard and Scotty said so!" I wonder what everyone would say about this if those lines were never spoken, because it's literally the only "evidence" they have.
I'm considering trawling the entirety of the TNG scripts because I'm pretty sure I remember an admiral or two dressing Picard down for his hippy ways, or at least gently reminding him he's in command of a fully armed warship and not every day will he be at leisure to indulge his passion of archeology. Those are just the good days, long may they last.
I do understand where you are going, but cops stay cops is a bit of a US view, some other nations's version of police and army reserve are the same. Nations of mainland Europe do not always have a lot of room between police and national defense during an invasion.
Again, I get your argument between civil justice vs military justice. Not so sure about the ideals though. Homeland Security "to ensure a homeland that is safe, secure", I am not sure if that is 'keep the peace' or'defend the nation', it sounds like both.
Yes, organized crime groups like Cosa Nostra and Yakuza have blurred the lines pretty hard at times.
If Starfleet isn't the principle cops of the setting (for off world or multi-world crime) then who is? We see on screen Starfleet inspecting ships and cargo, but I may not be remembering an episode about a homicide that you are referring to.
A pretty good rule of thumb, though not all militaries use court martials (military law is a subset of civilian law rather then its own thing in this case) and sometimes non-military groups have used the term to refer to internal justice systems even if there is nothing military about it.
It has been said again and again, but it's not like anybody would actually read anything and instead just posts the same things all over.
It's canon. Plain and simple as that. So the premis of this thread is faulty, Starfleet is not a military organization. It performs military tasks and incorporates similiarities as well as dissimiliarities of today's militaries but it's still written as not being one. And that is simply not debateable. And no it's not singular opinions it was exposition. The difference between those has also been explained numerous time but, again, was ignored.
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Not your best attempt, druk
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As I figured out in my previous post, if we, Starfleet, is not a military organisation, is not an organisation which has to deal with war and combat, where is the organisation that does that job? I believe Starfleet is a military organisation, but since space is a new frontier, it will also have an important task to explore that new frontier, not in an aggresive way, to conquer, but just to gain knowledge and befriend new life. In the series we viewed mostly the non-combat activities of Starfleet, in the game it is foremost the combat.
Something we have been TRYING TO TELL YOU FOR OVER 11 PAGES GENIUS! That the US Navy has other missions besides sending ships or planes to blow something up and guess what they are STILL a military.
Thankyou for proving our point. Good day.
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http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
And you should just turn it around and see that defense is just something Starfleet does as well without being a military organisation. And the latter thing is explicitly told to be true. It's really that simple.
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Defense is something the military does, along with border patrols, smuggling interdiction, Humanitarian assistance, exploration, phenomena monitoring. I mean literally anything Starfleet does you can find a correlation to what the US Navy does.
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Cept Gene lost control of Star Trek LONG ago. Just like Star Wars has long since grown past George Lucas with Disney buying him out.
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Well, whoever is now in control of Star Trek, he, she or them are still arguing for Starfleet not being a military. Just as recently as Star Trek: Beyond.
Like Data was made by unknown aliens and was given a physical and considered alive before he joined Starfleet?
So we can throw entire episodes about his origins and personal struggles away because Gene said so right?
The writers 'bible' does say Star Fleet is not a military organization. It also says the above and more that goes contrary to what came later.
http://leethomson.myzen.co.uk/Star_Trek/2_The_Next_Generation/Star_Trek_-_The_Next_Generation_Bible.pdf
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
You are misportraying the issue by being emotional.
What you call "because Picard and Scotty said so" needs to be extended to include the whole design and writing process behind Star Trek which at numerous points in it's development emphasized this point which was then manifested in canon via exposition dialogue. You are still not getting that in a play there are no people simply "saying" things if the scene doesn't explicitly shows that a statement is a characterisation, joke, homage or whatever.
Now, if there was never such a statement and we had only behind the scenes I'd use that to piece things together. If we didn't and Star Trek would have just "being made" it wouldn't be the same thing any more, but since I know where you go with your question I'd still say for a present day military they have some rather weird habits like how the whole command structure of the ship work (anybody can just take a test and be seated on the bridge, including the counselor). The overall comparison would probably say they are a kind of military.
What you still debate is that despite sharing common features, your military and Starfleet still aproached that point from opposite ends of the spectrum. Militaries started out very different from what they are (at least western ones) and adopted more and more function as time advanced and challenges faced changed. Starfleet started out as a non military (not purely civilian, it was always a government body with some special rules) which while time advanced and challenges changed absorbed the military into the organisation. In both cases though the organisations retained their original apperance.
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It was said time and time again that Starfleet was not a military organization. It is even mentioned in Star Trek Beyond and is an important part of the plot. Gene Roddenberry said it was not military and so does Memory Alpha:
Starfleet was the deep-space exploratory and defense service maintained by the United Federation of Planets. Its principal functions included the advancement of Federation knowledge about the galaxy and its inhabitants, the advancement of Federation science and technology, the defense of the Federation, and the facilitation of Federation diplomacy.
As per its mandate of deep-space exploration, its personnel were frequently brought into contact with cultures and sentient species whose existences were unknown to the Federation. Starfleet officers therefore acted as official representatives of the Federation in these cases. Starfleet vessels were also frequently used to ferry ambassadors on diplomatic missions.
Starfleet was a civilian organization acting as a successor to various Earth based space agencies such as NASA, the International Space Agency, and others. Its primary function was scientific development and exploration of space.
Starfleet officers functioned as commanders and directors of the service's operations at all levels. The most senior officers ranks were known as flag officer ranks. Officers holding these ranks functioned at the highest levels of command in the service.
Folks might enjoy reading the Jack McDevitt 'Academy' novels, a sci-fi series that focuses on and largely stays on track as being about FTL-capable exploration. Conflict, drama, threats to entire civilizations, and NOT hour after hour after hour of stories about acting like and taking on/resolving problems as a military force. It can be done. If you really want a story to not be about a military organization, there's things to write about/show to drive stories onward without people saluting, having court martials, and filling the screen with the clash of warships. Its simply disingenuous to CONSTANTLY draw on the military for your stories and then proclaim, "but oh no, we're far too civilized to be a military" while pulling the trigger on your phaser yet again.
Because they all speak in one voice so long as that voice supports your position.
Right.
Here's a little something you should read from a source you appear to trust.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
And that's the funniest thing of all: I'd be willing to watch and see whether Star Fleet is not a military in the Kelvin Timeline. They haven't actually blown it there yet in that setting. While its weird that it would be created hot on the heels of winning a war, in the KT they seemingly DON'T exist in a state of constant threat of war (other than maybe the Klingons, and it's possible Marcus was being a paranoid - we went tearing around their homeworld uninvited and it didn't actually start a war...). I'd still question the sanity of any nation that opted for total disarmament, but I'm not having my face rubbed in that incongruity at every turn.
People complain about the Enterprise getting trashed in every KT movie, but if they're explorers who end up colliding with actual militants, that's a completely plausible outcome.
Up against a ship from 75 years in the future based on some of the most advanced tech of that setting (Borg)? Boom, 9 out of 10 Star Fleet ships die instantly and the tenth only lives because the hostile captain Let It Live. They win the day with a bunch of finagling and daring do and a bomb also from the future.
Go toe to toe with a real warship from the same tech-base and get shredded in seconds, saved only by having a saboteur of the highest caliber aboard the military ship. Yeah, I'd buy that's a explorer solution.
Face off against a hostile fighter swarm and get chewed to bits in seconds. Also sounds like explorers literally walking into an unknown beehive.
So far the KT writers aren't using the Enterprise as a platform for telling military stories. Honestly I thought it bizarre I found pictures on Simon Pegg's Twitter feed of them giving a private screening to the President and the Joint Chiefs. Maybe the producers thought they ought to take the temperature in that particular room before the broader release.
In the case of the United Federation of Planets.... it's Starfleet.
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