Would your STO ship have marines?

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  • artan42
    artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    khan5000 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    Didn't David explicitly refer to Starfleet as "the military" in TWoK?

    A guy not in Starfleet, with daddy issues, and a chip on his shoulder from them constantly shutting down his research?

    He's hardly the captain of the Flagship of Starfleet is he.

    So only people in Starfleet can determine if Starfleet is a military or not?

    No. Only the opinions of people in Starfleet count. Kirk feels like a soldier, Picard says he's a diplomat and that Starfleet isn't a military. O'Brien is an engineer not a soldier, he left the army to join Starfleet.
    nikeix wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    Because Court Martial is a common term used in other organizations.

    Really? Can you name three that aren't military? Because I can't. Probably because the words themselves tell you its a "martial" court.

    Considering it's an informal term not a formal one it doesn't matter. But yes I can. There was disciplinary hearing for two firefighters and one police officer here in Yorkshire, referred to in the papers as a court martial. So that's two.
    khan5000 wrote: »
    The only thing that truly sets the military and other organizations apart is that they go to war. Police don't go to war. Coast Guard don't go to war.
    If in TOS the Klingons declared war and launched an invasion of Federation space...who would respond?
    If in TNG the Romulans declared war and launched an invasions of Federation space...who would respond?
    if in DS9 the founders declared....see the final seasons of DS9

    Sorry but for all the high sounding words they use...if they are the fighting force of the Federation...they are a military.

    Starfleet would respond obviously. They have ships with guns, why wouldn't they respond? Some countries have home guards and a provision for Police to become militias in the case on an invasion, it doesn't make them militaries.
    The Federation has a research and colonisation fleet with big guns that would likely be required by Federation law to form a militia if invaded.
    nikeix wrote: »
    angrytarg wrote: »
    The literal same discussion with the sxact same words used by both sides and it got really boring. Just watch the shows, it is literally spelled out in this very words "Starfleet is not a military organization".

    It is HI-****-larious that an avowed student of canon would say that like it is something not contradicted repeatedly in setting, on screen, starting with a rank structure no non-military organization would ever bother with and moving on steadily from there.

    There are plenty of groovy, hippy "I wish we were explorers and nothing but" characters in the spotlight, but every time the camera pulls back a little, it's plainly evident that the rest of star fleet doesn't share that outlook.

    For me the problem is 95% of the American public along with an equal or higher percentage of Star Trek writers don't know a goddamn thing about how their own military actually functions and just spew random tropes at the page. So we get these weird, dogmatic caricatures of a pseudo-military with a few buzz words thrown at it.

    I'm not sure if you're blind or not. But you have seen the American Police right? Hell, they even have guns.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • thekodanarmada#7342
    thekodanarmada#7342 Member Posts: 1,631 Arc User
    Non-military starship:

    "Fire phasers at that asteroid!"
    "Offensive Operations says they need an approved purchase order for the expenditure of the sarium-krellide to shoot at the asteroid. Also they want to know how much phaser to use and suggest we engage Offensive Capacity Planning to put together the order."
    "Tell Offensive Operations to put it in as a trust case or that they're violating the Offensive Service Level Agreement, which stipulates we have 1 Terajoule per day of freely dispositionable phaser provisioning."
    "They want a ticket tracking number."
    "Open a ticket then. Make it P1, urgent. They have an SLA of 20 minutes then."
    "Uh, sir, the asteroid hit the planet."
    "Well, TRIBBLE."
    "Offensive Operations says the phaser provisioning is ready, but the target is no longer in scope. Do we want to phaser the planet anyway?"
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  • gradii
    gradii Member Posts: 2,817 Arc User
    It's not just an army though it handles other duties too. I think that's the distinction. but really this is just sci fi and it is whatever the writers insist it is :expressionless:

    "He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
    Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
    he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
    In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
    He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
    He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
    He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
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  • artan42
    artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    Non-military starship:

    "Fire phasers at that asteroid!"
    "Offensive Operations says they need an approved purchase order for the expenditure of the sarium-krellide to shoot at the asteroid. Also they want to know how much phaser to use and suggest we engage Offensive Capacity Planning to put together the order."
    "Tell Offensive Operations to put it in as a trust case or that they're violating the Offensive Service Level Agreement, which stipulates we have 1 Terajoule per day of freely dispositionable phaser provisioning."
    "They want a ticket tracking number."
    "Open a ticket then. Make it P1, urgent. They have an SLA of 20 minutes then."
    "Uh, sir, the asteroid hit the planet."
    "Well, ****."
    "Offensive Operations says the phaser provisioning is ready, but the target is no longer in scope. Do we want to phaser the planet anyway?"

    Yeah, discipline and chain of command are concepts completely and utterly alien to any organisation that is not a military.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • talonxv
    talonxv Member Posts: 4,250 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    khan5000 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    Didn't David explicitly refer to Starfleet as "the military" in TWoK?

    A guy not in Starfleet, with daddy issues, and a chip on his shoulder from them constantly shutting down his research?

    He's hardly the captain of the Flagship of Starfleet is he.

    So only people in Starfleet can determine if Starfleet is a military or not?

    No. Only the opinions of people in Starfleet count. Kirk feels like a soldier, Picard says he's a diplomat and that Starfleet isn't a military. O'Brien is an engineer not a soldier, he left the army to join Starfleet.
    nikeix wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    Because Court Martial is a common term used in other organizations.

    Really? Can you name three that aren't military? Because I can't. Probably because the words themselves tell you its a "martial" court.

    Considering it's an informal term not a formal one it doesn't matter. But yes I can. There was disciplinary hearing for two firefighters and one police officer here in Yorkshire, referred to in the papers as a court martial. So that's two.
    khan5000 wrote: »
    The only thing that truly sets the military and other organizations apart is that they go to war. Police don't go to war. Coast Guard don't go to war.
    If in TOS the Klingons declared war and launched an invasion of Federation space...who would respond?
    If in TNG the Romulans declared war and launched an invasions of Federation space...who would respond?
    if in DS9 the founders declared....see the final seasons of DS9

    Sorry but for all the high sounding words they use...if they are the fighting force of the Federation...they are a military.

    Starfleet would respond obviously. They have ships with guns, why wouldn't they respond? Some countries have home guards and a provision for Police to become militias in the case on an invasion, it doesn't make them militaries.
    The Federation has a research and colonisation fleet with big guns that would likely be required by Federation law to form a militia if invaded.
    nikeix wrote: »
    angrytarg wrote: »
    The literal same discussion with the sxact same words used by both sides and it got really boring. Just watch the shows, it is literally spelled out in this very words "Starfleet is not a military organization".

    It is HI-****-larious that an avowed student of canon would say that like it is something not contradicted repeatedly in setting, on screen, starting with a rank structure no non-military organization would ever bother with and moving on steadily from there.

    There are plenty of groovy, hippy "I wish we were explorers and nothing but" characters in the spotlight, but every time the camera pulls back a little, it's plainly evident that the rest of star fleet doesn't share that outlook.

    For me the problem is 95% of the American public along with an equal or higher percentage of Star Trek writers don't know a goddamn thing about how their own military actually functions and just spew random tropes at the page. So we get these weird, dogmatic caricatures of a pseudo-military with a few buzz words thrown at it.

    I'm not sure if you're blind or not. But you have seen the American Police right? Hell, they even have guns.​​

    You really think the American Police could stop a major invasion? That's cute.
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  • bernatk
    bernatk Member Posts: 1,089 Bug Hunter
    artan42 wrote: »
    Yeah, discipline and chain of command are concepts completely and utterly alien to any organisation that is not a military.​​

    That's also not true. Case in point The salvation army or Scouting. Not really military but modeled after armies yes.
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  • artan42
    artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    talonxv wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    khan5000 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    Didn't David explicitly refer to Starfleet as "the military" in TWoK?

    A guy not in Starfleet, with daddy issues, and a chip on his shoulder from them constantly shutting down his research?

    He's hardly the captain of the Flagship of Starfleet is he.

    So only people in Starfleet can determine if Starfleet is a military or not?

    No. Only the opinions of people in Starfleet count. Kirk feels like a soldier, Picard says he's a diplomat and that Starfleet isn't a military. O'Brien is an engineer not a soldier, he left the army to join Starfleet.
    nikeix wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    Because Court Martial is a common term used in other organizations.

    Really? Can you name three that aren't military? Because I can't. Probably because the words themselves tell you its a "martial" court.

    Considering it's an informal term not a formal one it doesn't matter. But yes I can. There was disciplinary hearing for two firefighters and one police officer here in Yorkshire, referred to in the papers as a court martial. So that's two.
    khan5000 wrote: »
    The only thing that truly sets the military and other organizations apart is that they go to war. Police don't go to war. Coast Guard don't go to war.
    If in TOS the Klingons declared war and launched an invasion of Federation space...who would respond?
    If in TNG the Romulans declared war and launched an invasions of Federation space...who would respond?
    if in DS9 the founders declared....see the final seasons of DS9

    Sorry but for all the high sounding words they use...if they are the fighting force of the Federation...they are a military.

    Starfleet would respond obviously. They have ships with guns, why wouldn't they respond? Some countries have home guards and a provision for Police to become militias in the case on an invasion, it doesn't make them militaries.
    The Federation has a research and colonisation fleet with big guns that would likely be required by Federation law to form a militia if invaded.
    nikeix wrote: »
    angrytarg wrote: »
    The literal same discussion with the sxact same words used by both sides and it got really boring. Just watch the shows, it is literally spelled out in this very words "Starfleet is not a military organization".

    It is HI-****-larious that an avowed student of canon would say that like it is something not contradicted repeatedly in setting, on screen, starting with a rank structure no non-military organization would ever bother with and moving on steadily from there.

    There are plenty of groovy, hippy "I wish we were explorers and nothing but" characters in the spotlight, but every time the camera pulls back a little, it's plainly evident that the rest of star fleet doesn't share that outlook.

    For me the problem is 95% of the American public along with an equal or higher percentage of Star Trek writers don't know a goddamn thing about how their own military actually functions and just spew random tropes at the page. So we get these weird, dogmatic caricatures of a pseudo-military with a few buzz words thrown at it.

    I'm not sure if you're blind or not. But you have seen the American Police right? Hell, they even have guns.

    You really think the American Police could stop a major invasion? That's cute.

    Are they armed like Starfleet is? I was replying to the ridiculous insanity whereby you pretended that only militaries have military ranks.
    bernatk wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    Yeah, discipline and chain of command are concepts completely and utterly alien to any organisation that is not a military.

    That's also not true. Case in point The salvation army or Scouting. Not really military but modeled after armies yes.

    I was being sarcastic. Their post was just being silly.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • sharpie65
    sharpie65 Member Posts: 679 Arc User
    Non-military starship:

    "Fire phasers at that asteroid!"
    "Offensive Operations says they need an approved purchase order for the expenditure of the sarium-krellide to shoot at the asteroid. Also they want to know how much phaser to use and suggest we engage Offensive Capacity Planning to put together the order."
    "Tell Offensive Operations to put it in as a trust case or that they're violating the Offensive Service Level Agreement, which stipulates we have 1 Terajoule per day of freely dispositionable phaser provisioning."
    "They want a ticket tracking number."
    "Open a ticket then. Make it P1, urgent. They have an SLA of 20 minutes then."
    "Uh, sir, the asteroid hit the planet."
    "Well, ****."
    "Offensive Operations says the phaser provisioning is ready, but the target is no longer in scope. Do we want to phaser the planet anyway?"

    I think the purpose of this post was to mock how different a non-military starship would act in comparison to a military starship, specifically in how each would react to destroying a threatening asteroid. Being that the crew of a Starfleet cruiser would not hesitate to blast that rock out of the stars, in comparison to a civilian freighter who would most likely need to file a report based on the situation, and THEN fire away depending on the response of the bureaucrats.

    Also, Starfleet ships are better equipped than a freighter to deal with something like that.
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  • nikeix
    nikeix Member Posts: 3,972 Arc User
    edited June 2016
    nikeix wrote: »
    I'm not sure if you're blind or not. But you have seen the American Police right?

    Yeah, and I even have some idea where they got that rank structure from, since they cribbed many of their rank titles wholesale... :)

    But its a good line of inquiry - "Does Starfleet make more sense as the Federation's Cops?" There's certainly plenty of episodes that come off as "you're gonna do what I say because of the obviously superior morality of my system and not the naked display of force" so yeah, cops probably is a good lens to peer through :wink:.

    It still leaves you with a glaring whole in the setting of "so where is the real military for a nation that is under nigh-constant threat of outright annihilations by its neighbors?"

    Since Star Fleet does have quite militant captains show up on screen in canon (and OMG the admirals... ruthless TRIBBLE left, right, and center) and there is no other agency to fulfill the absolutely essential role of national defense... Yeah. Star Fleet. Military.
    Hell, they even have guns.​​

    Which would actually put them more in the martial camp. Though I suppose in the USA where the distinction between military and police is very carefully enforced, it might not be obvious that in many places the police are essentially an auxiliary of the military.
  • angrytarg
    angrytarg Member Posts: 10,808 Arc User
    bernatk wrote: »

    If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

    Starfleet is military. In the academy there are cadets. When they start serving on a ship they have ranks (ensign, lieutenant, lt cmdr, cpt, etc). Then there are admirals who refer to civil politician like in a real army since the roman times. Then there are civil corps like in any army.

    It's not paramilitary, Starfleet is a full blown army.

    Yeah, about ducks... http://www.whatbird.com/browse/objs/all/birds_na_147/20/body shape/303/duck-like

    I mean I'm not messing with anyone's headcanon. If it is necessary for you or others to enjoy STO by all means. This discussion is really stale and still after so many times we're at "they have ranks, noone ever had that but militaries".

    If so please look through the forum archive and refer to a random Starfleet military discussion, they all contain the same postings. Literally.
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  • markhawkman
    markhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    gradii wrote: »
    It's not just an army though it handles other duties too. I think that's the distinction. but really this is just sci fi and it is whatever the writers insist it is :expressionless:
    Pretty much... the writers of each individual episode made whatever claims they felt like and didn't pay attention to what the other writers had said.
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  • darakoss
    darakoss Member Posts: 850 Arc User
    [quote="nikeix;12973297"][quote="nikeix;12973258"]I'm not sure if you're blind or not. But you have seen the American Police right?[/quote]

    Yeah, and I even have some idea where they got that rank structure [i]from[/i], since they cribbed many of their rank titles wholesale... :)

    But its a good line of inquiry - "Does Starfleet make more sense as the Federation's Cops?" There's certainly plenty of episodes that come off as "you're gonna do what I say because of the obviously superior morality of my system and not the naked display of force" so yeah, cops probably [i]is[/i] a good lens to peer through :wink:.

    It still leaves you with a glaring whole in the setting of "so where is the [u]real[/u] military for a nation that is under nigh-constant threat of outright annihilations by its neighbors?"

    Since Star Fleet does have quite militant captains show up on screen in canon (and OMG the admirals... ruthless **** left, right, and center) [b]and[/b] there is no other agency to fulfill the absolutely essential role of national defense... Yeah. Star Fleet. Military.

    [quote]Hell, they even have guns.​​[/quote]

    Which would actually put them more in the martial camp. Though I suppose in the USA where the distinction between military and police is very carefully enforced, it might not be obvious that in many places the police are essentially an auxiliary of the military.[/quote]

    The distinction here is becoming very blurred. American police now like to wear tactical vests, carry m4 rifles and m9 tactical helmets. That's not just limited to SWAT anymore. He'll even police chiefs wear four stars like a general.
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  • thekodanarmada#7342
    thekodanarmada#7342 Member Posts: 1,631 Arc User
    The word you're looking for is 'paramilitary.'
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  • eldarion79
    eldarion79 Member Posts: 1,679 Arc User
    Starfleet is a military organization. It is the primary defense of the Federation. Picard only said Starfleet is a Military in a one off line, but he counted being a battlefield commander as one of his accomplishments. Starfleet is more like 19th Century Navy such as the Royal and American, where they were sent on anti-piracy/anti-slavery patrols, set up stations (coaling), showing the flag to other countries, founding colonies, humanitarian aid, and oceanographic research.

  • khan5000
    khan5000 Member Posts: 3,005 Arc User
    eldarion79 wrote: »
    Starfleet is a military organization. It is the primary defense of the Federation. Picard only said Starfleet is a Military in a one off line, but he counted being a battlefield commander as one of his accomplishments. Starfleet is more like 19th Century Navy such as the Royal and American, where they were sent on anti-piracy/anti-slavery patrols, set up stations (coaling), showing the flag to other countries, founding colonies, humanitarian aid, and oceanographic research.

    Actually the current US Navy does a lot of the same things...save for the founding colonies
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  • ktonof1aq
    ktonof1aq Member Posts: 210 Arc User
    Coast Guard is military so it is all really a moot point. Seems we're getting to stuck on the idea of "military" as a function of war and forgetting all the various roles that the military does perform. This really has been a much more interesting post than expected.

    Here is an interesting link: http://allhands.coastguard.dodlive.mil/2014/02/05/from-the-homefront-top-10-things-we-wish-people-knew-about-coast-guard-life/
  • darakoss
    darakoss Member Posts: 850 Arc User
    Forget Marines. We need 23rd century spacedock security with the funny caps. Maybe even get a "Tiny" purple doff to boot.
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  • hyefather
    hyefather Member Posts: 1,286 Arc User
    my ships ran by oompa loompas. We kick TRIBBLE and when we don't they sing and dance this weird TRIBBLE song that makes me paranoid and scared.
  • markhawkman
    markhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    edited June 2016
    khan5000 wrote: »
    eldarion79 wrote: »
    Starfleet is a military organization. It is the primary defense of the Federation. Picard only said Starfleet is a Military in a one off line, but he counted being a battlefield commander as one of his accomplishments. Starfleet is more like 19th Century Navy such as the Royal and American, where they were sent on anti-piracy/anti-slavery patrols, set up stations (coaling), showing the flag to other countries, founding colonies, humanitarian aid, and oceanographic research.
    Actually the current US Navy does a lot of the same things...save for the founding colonies
    Enh, they'd probably do that if there was anywhere to colonize.

    But yeah, the general public watches war movies and thinks that's all the military does... not even close.
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  • artan42
    artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    eldarion79 wrote: »
    Starfleet is a military organization. It is the primary defense of the Federation. Picard only said Starfleet is a Military in a one off line, but he counted being a battlefield commander as one of his accomplishments. Starfleet is more like 19th Century Navy such as the Royal and American, where they were sent on anti-piracy/anti-slavery patrols, set up stations (coaling), showing the flag to other countries, founding colonies, humanitarian aid, and oceanographic research.

    It's the only defence of the Federation. Still doesn't make it a military.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • shahadem
    shahadem Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    edited June 2016
    STO ships do have something like Marines. Starfleet ships have always served the dual purpose of navy/peacekeeping and diplomacy/exploration/science.

    There is a reason why every mission I get from Starfleet results in combat, and it isn't because Starfleet is a peaceful organization. It is because Starfleet is an interplanetary militarized organization. You can deny this all you want but the clear evidence shows that Starfleet is Earth's military even though it isn't the military of other planet's which are part of Starfleet. There are other organization's on Earth which exist purely for peaceful purposes, but Starfleet isn't one of those organizations. Yes Starfleet does have ships which aren't armed, the U.S. military also has vehicles which aren't armed. Having vehicles which aren't armed doesn't mean that your organization isn't a militarized organization, it just means that you have some vessels which aren't armed.

    Think back to TNG. The Enterprise ship sometimes performed the activities of a diplomatic service and sometimes performed the activities of a military. Starfleet serves a dual purpose.

    So yes your vessel would carry marines because Starfleet acts as both the military and diplomatic service of Earth. If you look at your DOFFs, you will see that some of them are specialized ground combat DOFFs. Tactical officers call down tactical DOFFs to assist them in combat. There are some missions in STO which require you to call down your troops either to assist you in combat, to help keep the peace or as a show of force. These missions wouldn't exist in their current form if the ships flown by players didn't have "marines" on them as these objectives would be incompleteable by some or all players.

    MACO is a specialized anti-borg taskforce within the ArcGames Star Trek universe. There are also specialized combat forces within real militaries, it is the same concept.
  • shahadem
    shahadem Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    ioneon wrote: »
    No. Starfleet is an organization based on exploration and peace, There would be no "marines" or otherwise dedicated military combatants with the exception of shipboard security. Use ENT as an example all you like, MACOs are earth military, and those were the days before the Federation existed. No single television show or movie has ever, repeat EVER, shown a dedicated military combat force serving on board a Federation vessel.

    Where were the marines when Voyager got sucked into the Delta quadrant? Where was SEAL team 6 when the BORG boarded the Enterprise D? I hate to break it to you, they didn't exist.

    Starfleet holds to it's ideals on being peaceful, and as such does not carry a contingent of warriors on board, sorry to break it to you.

    I'm calling TRIBBLE on this. The shows and movies prove that Starfleet is a military. Starfleet orders the ships in the shows to perform the role of naval vessels. Starfleet operates like a navy, from command structure to duties to training to activities. Starfleet operates as Earth's military to the point of being the only true organization that is ever shown being used to defend Earth from military threats. When a borg cube was approaching Earth, it was Starfleet that provided the ships and officers which were used to defend Earth, it was Starfleet vessels and officers who gave their lives to defend Earth from the Borg. If Starfleet was a peaceful organization then it would not be called upon to perform the activities of a military.
  • darakoss
    darakoss Member Posts: 850 Arc User
    shahadem wrote: »
    STO ships do have something like Marines. Starfleet ships have always served the dual purpose of navy/peacekeeping and diplomacy/exploration/science.

    There is a reason why every mission I get from Starfleet results in combat, and it isn't because Starfleet is a peaceful organization. It is because Starfleet is an interplanetary militarized organization. You can deny this all you want but the clear evidence shows that Starfleet is Earth's military even though it isn't the military of other planet's which are part of Starfleet. There are other organization's on Earth which exist purely for peaceful purposes, but Starfleet isn't one of those organizations. Yes Starfleet does have ships which aren't armed, the U.S. military also has vehicles which aren't armed. Having vehicles which aren't armed doesn't mean that your organization isn't a militarized organization, it just means that you have some vessels which aren't armed.

    Think back to TNG. The Enterprise ship sometimes performed the activities of a diplomatic service and sometimes performed the activities of a military. Starfleet serves a dual purpose.

    So yes your vessel would carry marines because Starfleet acts as both the military and diplomatic service of Earth. If you look at your DOFFs, you will see that some of them are specialized ground combat DOFFs. Tactical officers call down tactical DOFFs to assist them in combat. There are some missions in STO which require you to call down your troops either to assist you in combat, to help keep the peace or as a show of force. These missions wouldn't exist in their current form if the ships flown by players didn't have "marines" on them as these objectives would be incompleteable by some or all players.

    MACO is a specialized anti-borg taskforce within the ArcGames Star Trek universe. There are also specialized combat forces within real militaries, it is the same concept.

    MACOs are actually under the jurisdiction of the United Earth government. Not Starfleet. And Starfleet is not just for Earth anymore but rather the entire Federation.
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  • shahadem
    shahadem Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    darakoss wrote: »
    shahadem wrote: »
    STO ships do have something like Marines. Starfleet ships have always served the dual purpose of navy/peacekeeping and diplomacy/exploration/science.

    There is a reason why every mission I get from Starfleet results in combat, and it isn't because Starfleet is a peaceful organization. It is because Starfleet is an interplanetary militarized organization. You can deny this all you want but the clear evidence shows that Starfleet is Earth's military even though it isn't the military of other planet's which are part of Starfleet. There are other organization's on Earth which exist purely for peaceful purposes, but Starfleet isn't one of those organizations. Yes Starfleet does have ships which aren't armed, the U.S. military also has vehicles which aren't armed. Having vehicles which aren't armed doesn't mean that your organization isn't a militarized organization, it just means that you have some vessels which aren't armed.

    Think back to TNG. The Enterprise ship sometimes performed the activities of a diplomatic service and sometimes performed the activities of a military. Starfleet serves a dual purpose.

    So yes your vessel would carry marines because Starfleet acts as both the military and diplomatic service of Earth. If you look at your DOFFs, you will see that some of them are specialized ground combat DOFFs. Tactical officers call down tactical DOFFs to assist them in combat. There are some missions in STO which require you to call down your troops either to assist you in combat, to help keep the peace or as a show of force. These missions wouldn't exist in their current form if the ships flown by players didn't have "marines" on them as these objectives would be incompleteable by some or all players.

    MACO is a specialized anti-borg taskforce within the ArcGames Star Trek universe. There are also specialized combat forces within real militaries, it is the same concept.

    MACOs are actually under the jurisdiction of the United Earth government. Not Starfleet. And Starfleet is not just for Earth anymore but rather the entire Federation.

    In the ArcGames Star Trek universe, MACO is a special organization of specialized Starfleet officers according to the ingame text. This might be an ArcGames retcon, but we are talking about whether our ArcGames Starfleet ships have marines on them and the answer is yes they do.

    However we probably don't have many marines onboard a ship because the reality is that ground forces simply are not going to be as prevalent in a world where we are flying starship's with enough firepower to blow up worlds or destroy suns. Technology has outpaced the capacity of infantry to perform its role when threatened by destruction from a starship in orbit.
  • angrytarg
    angrytarg Member Posts: 10,808 Arc User
    khan5000 wrote: »
    Actually the current US Navy does a lot of the same things...save for the founding colonies

    And why do you think they do that? Help out in humanitarian missions, scientific research, transportation and all that? Because they have the resources and possiblities. No military is founded with the intention of performing research and humanitarian aid, you'd found different organization for that.

    With Starfleet it is simply the other way around. They were founded to explore strange new worlds (it is the friggin headline of the show(s)...) but since they have the big ships, the big guns to defend themselves they simply adopt defense in function but not as their primary itnend, they just do so because it makes sense.

    In the world of Star Trek, the mindset is different. That is all. If it is required for some people's enjoyment to reject what actually is said ín the show and supplement it with their own headcanon that's one thing, but all the real world comparisons and how awesomesauce militaries are miss the point.​​
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    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • nikeix
    nikeix Member Posts: 3,972 Arc User
    What's said in the show by a biased observer vs. what is shown ALSO in the show... Hmm.
  • kelshando
    kelshando Member Posts: 887 Arc User
    Why do people think that Star Fleet isn't military?

    Just because its purpose in peace time is exploration and humanitarian efforts does not mean that it does not function as a military force.

    Star Fleet is the military arm of the Federation.. this is fact. When the Federation goes to war its Star Fleet that fights it.

    Just because it's the military arm and is structured as a military force does not mean that it also can't be used for exploration and humanitarian efforts. One doesn't exclude the other...

  • yreodred
    yreodred Member Posts: 3,527 Arc User
    "Would your STO ship have marines?"
    no.
    "...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--" - (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie

    A tale of two Picards
    (also applies to Star Trek in general)
  • angrytarg
    angrytarg Member Posts: 10,808 Arc User
    edited June 2016
    kelshando wrote: »
    Why do people think that Star Fleet isn't military?

    Because it is literally spelled out this way.
    Just because its purpose in peace time is exploration and humanitarian efforts does not mean that it does not function as a military force.

    Star Fleet is the military arm of the Federation.. this is fact. When the Federation goes to war its Star Fleet that fights it.

    Just because it's the military arm and is structured as a military force does not mean that it also can't be used for exploration and humanitarian efforts. One doesn't exclude the other...

    Aside from the little adjustment (it's purpose doesn't change in war time) you are right. Nobody denies that. That still doesn't make them a military (again, it's spelled out they aren't). They adapt the function when it's necessary, but it's academy credo is "Ex Astris, scientia". Their organization is paramilitary, as is their combatant status.

    As above, just because the military does condone humanitarian missions and scientific research it doesn't mean the military is a humanitarian or scientific institution. It's still a military. In Trek, Starfleet is a humanitarian and scientific institution which happens to also perform military duties because they have the equipment, resources and training. The difference is the mindset. We today think the first thing we have to do is defend ourselves and everything is secondary after security concerns. Starfleet's purpose is to evolve knowledge and people first and then of course protect these achievements second.

    What's left is simply bickering over semantics. I'll stick with what intend is shown and spelled out in the shows.

    EDITED, reason: words.​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • gradii
    gradii Member Posts: 2,817 Arc User
    All this over what basically comes down to semantics.

    "He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
    Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
    he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
    In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
    He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
    He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
    He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
    He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."