The US Coast Guard is a branch of the military, they're not paramilitary. When I talk about a coast guard or a paramilitary coast guard, I not talking about the American one.
Important point. While Star Trek is a US American show, when discussing topics like this it is worthwhile to mention that outside of the US things work differently.
The German Bundesgrenzschutz that existed post WW2 until ca 2005 is a prime example of a paramilitary police force including special forces (GSG-9) that pretty much operated along the lines of what Starfleet could be portrayed of doing. Since 2005 it's Federal Police and lost it's paramilitary function but they still operate within the Coast Guard (in conjunction with other civil branches) which operates (light) Cruisers (albeit unarmed ones, since no paramilitary any more). Germany even has a cruiser type ships that's solely for SAR/Lifeboat duty. There are plenty of countries all over the world not having armed forces at all and Japan doesn't has a formal military but a equivalent defensive service. Starfleet is the same here, being a formal equivalent service. It's still somewhat important to keep the no military thing up (function doesn't equal name) since it's a different approach and mindset which is what Star Trek was (also) about.
Did you read the Potsdam Agreement and the later 2+4 Agreement? There's a specific reason why the Germans do it that way, and it's not because they WANT to. Thus it's a poor example as it's the result of losing a war and accepting terms that were unfavorable to them.
Did you read the Potsdam Agreement and the later 2+4 Agreement? There's a specific reason why the Germans do it that way, and it's not because they WANT to. Thus it's a poor example as it's the result of losing a war and accepting terms that were unfavorable to them.
The why isn't all that important I'd say as long as the precedent, that seems absolutely necessary to accept what a fictional sci-fi service is or does, is intact. Pretty much every case inw hich paramilitaries substitute for standing armies has some reason, of course, but it exists and it works. I didn't say it's the norm, Star Trek asks to open your mind about some things that aren't all that normal by the time it was made and maybe even more alien in our rpesent time when radicalisation got a huge popularity boost.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Yes, of course carry my Andorian ships infantry. Boarding parties are a must have for every military ship. And on the red and green side of things: is that even a question ?
The US Coast Guard is a branch of the military, they're not paramilitary. When I talk about a coast guard or a paramilitary coast guard, I not talking about the American one.
Important point. While Star Trek is a US American show, when discussing topics like this it is worthwhile to mention that outside of the US things work differently.
The German Bundesgrenzschutz that existed post WW2 until ca 2005 is a prime example of a paramilitary police force including special forces (GSG-9) that pretty much operated along the lines of what Starfleet could be portrayed of doing. Since 2005 it's Federal Police and lost it's paramilitary function but they still operate within the Coast Guard (in conjunction with other civil branches) which operates (light) Cruisers (albeit unarmed ones, since no paramilitary any more). Germany even has a cruiser type ships that's solely for SAR/Lifeboat duty. There are plenty of countries all over the world not having armed forces at all and Japan doesn't has a formal military but a equivalent defensive service. Starfleet is the same here, being a formal equivalent service. It's still somewhat important to keep the no military thing up (function doesn't equal name) since it's a different approach and mindset which is what Star Trek was (also) about.
Wow and here comes the moving Goal posts. Just face it you're world is crumbling and you're simply reaching for straws.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
Erm no. That's what the Security department is for. Research organisations don't have ground assault troops.
Research organizations also don't carry firepower sufficient to slag inhabited worlds, but Starfleet does, and has done since the franchise's earliest days; the mere existence of General Order 24 is proof enough of that. Picard is very much an anomaly; Kirk openly admitted he was a soldier.
USS Bajor has a dedicated assault unit drawn from crew members with advanced combat training, and Captain Kanril Eleya is MACO-qualified.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Did you read the Potsdam Agreement and the later 2+4 Agreement? There's a specific reason why the Germans do it that way, and it's not because they WANT to. Thus it's a poor example as it's the result of losing a war and accepting terms that were unfavorable to them.
The why isn't all that important I'd say as long as the precedent, that seems absolutely necessary to accept what a fictional sci-fi service is or does, is intact. Pretty much every case inw hich paramilitaries substitute for standing armies has some reason, of course, but it exists and it works. I didn't say it's the norm, Star Trek asks to open your mind about some things that aren't all that normal by the time it was made and maybe even more alien in our rpesent time when radicalisation got a huge popularity boost.
Point was that they did it because of pressure from outside forces. What outside forces would cause the UFP to do the same? Also... The Germans have no reason to NEED to defend themselves because the treaty gives them protection.
2. I love how people who seem to think that a service that has GENERAL ORDERS, COURT MARSHALS, AND A VERY STRICT CHAIN OF COMMAND is anything but a military.
Sigh. I going to say 'police' again to you because your really don't seem to understand that things like chain of command or ranks or whatnot exist outside the military. I even bolded it for you. You know those time members of various militaries pop up and complain about ranks or promotion or career length in starfleet not been like in a military? Well there's a reason for that.
A militaries prime purpose is to be a military with humanitarian work etc. being secondary. Starfleet is the other way around. You'd no more likely claim the US Navy is a oceanography organisation just because they do some surveying every now and again that you should claim Starfleet is a military because it has to shoot things every now and again.
It's really not that difficult. You know that coast guard's, merchant navies and fishing fleets follow similar protocol to military navies? Turns out it's a really efficient way to fun a bunch of boats. Are they militaries?
And guess what, paramilitary as the Coast Guard is, they're still bound to the Uniform Code of military justice.
The US Coast Guard is a branch of the military, they're not paramilitary. When I talk about a coast guard or a paramilitary coast guard, I not talking about the American one.
In peacetime the US Coast can be considered semi-paramilitary since it is under the U.S. Dept of Homeland Security and a multi-mission force combined with maritime law enforcement. In wartime it can be placed under the Navy if directed by the president. But yes it is the fifth branch of the armed forces.
In peacetime the US Coast can be considered semi-paramilitary since it is under the U.S. Dept of Homeland Security and a multi-mission force combined with maritime law enforcement. In wartime it can be placed under the Navy if directed by the president. But yes it is the fifth branch of the armed forces.
I'm going to need a better definition of what semi-paramilitary is here.
Point was that they did it because of pressure from outside forces. What outside forces would cause the UFP to do the same? Also... The Germans have no reason to NEED to defend themselves because the treaty gives them protection.
I get the point, but it's not relevant in this case. The only reason I brought it up in the first is that there is a RL precedent (not only in Gemrany) where the setup works. The UFP wouldn't need anyone to pressure them but simply choose the model voluntarily as they do not want a military outside representation (the ships' armament have often enough caused diplomatic concerns, though). And the need for defense is of course given, but it's also what Starfleet does. You don't need a formal military to defend yourself, you can also use a functional equivalent service that doesn't identify as military which definitely applies to Starfleet according to canonical exposition and world building.
The argument that Picard is an exception or somehow deluded is also not correct. Picard's statements serve as exposition and world building. If it had been a singular opinion someone had to fight him on it. If a character tells misleading information for a reason the medium has to tell the audience so like it did with basically everything Dukat said, for example. Aside from Picard you also have O'Brien literally stating he's not a soldier serving Starfleet, you have the defining catchphrase of the show (for crying out loud) setting the tone and premise as well as a number of in-universe hints like the Academy's credo. On the other hoof you have a single sentence of Kirk that, for some reason, weighs more than contrary statements (plural) or complete silence on the matter in the rest of canon. I find it more likely to view it as a metaphorical statement.
I would in principle not really want to argue with "if the body fights for a government it's a military" (ignoring that historically and factually it doesn't have to be that way), however in Star Trek's case it is very much on record that it isn't and conclusions can be drawn as made in this thread in addition to the fact that Star Trek is not real life and Starfleet is the product of a fictional artistic vision of something which is defined by what we're told through the medium. Starfleet fights, Picard is a battlefield commander nobody questions that. But Starfleet's purpose is exploration and research, the defense function is integrated because of the resources and manpower given. In the real world these two thing are just inverted, Militaries perform aid missions and help in research because they have the equipment that would otherwise be necessary to provide with a lot more effort and material so they simply help out with it. You wouldn't however really start an argument that a military is founded with the intention of being a humanitarian organization. Star Trek spins that expectation around as we're to believe that the UFP is a pacifistic society with the primary mindset of heading into a bright and peaceful future and even in real life there have been attempts to go there by formally abolishing a military. Should one's personal political believes go contrary to that that's one thing but it doesn't really change what we're looking at. This argument would shift in weight if for example the new show explicitly makes Starfleet a military, if anyone identifies it as military and isn't fought on it. In the movies we have Marcus' statement about the military taking away their research, true. The same movies have the line that an end to the Klingon-UFP war causes some concern that it would mean the end of Starfleet. In the latter case though the worries are disputed by stating that the exploration purpose still persists (why anyone would even question that in the first place is beyond me as it doesn't make sense for any character in-universe to do so) as well as treating the Klingon war as if that's the only conflict Starfleet deals with or that it was founded for that purpose alone. We later have however more occasions and indication vocally and subtly redeeming these points. If that would now happen the other way around, as I said, we had some basis for debate.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Well, the game SFB used to have them as Boarding parties...you could use them to make your
enemy miserable if you where close enough to the enemy ship and both you and the enemy
shields were down.
Due to game mechanics...that was often.
Due to complications...I really can't see it used here.
Well, the game SFB used to have them as Boarding parties...you could use them to make your
enemy miserable if you where close enough to the enemy ship and both you and the enemy
shields were down.
Due to game mechanics...that was often.
Due to complications...I really can't see it used here.
SFB = Starfleet Battles
There are boarding parties in this game
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Well, the game SFB used to have them as Boarding parties...you could use them to make your
enemy miserable if you where close enough to the enemy ship and both you and the enemy
shields were down.
Due to game mechanics...that was often.
Due to complications...I really can't see it used here.
SFB = Starfleet Battles
There are boarding parties in this game
Unfortunately severly underused. Cryptic really needs to revisit them to make them a worthwhile alternative. On my Klingon character I use them a lot but only because it's DOFFed to spawn six shuttles and those are armed with disruptor point defense and really manage to deal some damage.
In my opinion Boarding Party needs at least the following improvements: Shuttles auto-targeting another enemy once the target has been destroyed - now they just sit there and do nothing. Boarding Party disable effects not countered by disable resistance and traits - since a BP disable is people boarding the ship and actually doing something instead of it being a drain or computer virus there had to be other counters. And "TT 1" shouldn't clear out all Boarding Parties. A BP III is more powerful so it should require a TT III to clear, lower TT have a chance to do so but not 100%.
Further it would be great is BPs would get a chance depending on enemy ship health (since they removed crew, good job...) to temporarily take control of the enemy ship. It would mechanically be akin to a prolonged confuse so the captured ship attacks it's allies. And if we'd really wanted to change things around it should be possible to let enemy ships surrender after being boarded, taking them out of the fight and awarding a bit of diplomacy/marauding xp instead of kill xp.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
If one were to look at the Starfleet Technical Manual, Chapter VIII, Article 52, Part 2: it says Starfleet is under the cognizance of the Federation Council and the Military Staff Committee.
Again Starfleet is a military:
1) It's an armed force
2) It's tasked with protecting the Federation from foreign enemies
3) It has authoritative rule consistent with current militaries (Being charged with insubordination and disobeying orders)
4) It has a separate judicial system separate from civilian Federation courts
In Tomorrow is Yesterday...When Christopher asks if the Navy built the Enterprise, Kirk responds that its a combined service.
Again Picard can say they aren't a military until the cows come home but actions speak louder than words.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Erm no. That's what the Security department is for. Research organisations don't have ground assault troops.
Research organizations also don't carry firepower sufficient to slag inhabited worlds, but Starfleet does, and has done since the franchise's earliest days; the mere existence of General Order 24 is proof enough of that. Picard is very much an anomaly; Kirk openly admitted he was a soldier.
How many research organisations can you list that operate near Klingon territory?
Also how many military ships (from any country) will have a five year exploration mandate with the task of seeking out new life and new civilisations?
The Federation has some sort of army, O'Brien was in it, he left the military (and being a soldier) to join Starfleet to become an Engineer.
To others, I understand the military does survey and exploration work, the current Enterprise (H88), is classed as a Survey Vessel - Hydrographic Oceanographic. But that is not the military's primary job.
Starfleet had no ships patrolling the Cardassian DMZ (obviously not in it), they have no ships stationed near the Klingon or Romulan NZ, the had no permanent fleet at DS9, they never have ships stationed at Earth or Vulcan. Why? Because all their ships are out exploring strange worlds, seeking out new life and new civilisations. Because they are a service of explorers, colonisers, humanitarian aid, surveying, and research who often operate in the unknown necessitating big guns. Sometimes they're required to use those big guns in defence of the Federation, but not often. The Federation out sizes the Klingon and Romulan Empires combined, that's enough of a deterrent.
If one were to look at the Starfleet Technical Manual, Chapter VIII, Article 52, Part 2: it says Starfleet is under the cognizance of the Federation Council and the Military Staff Committee.
Again Starfleet is a military:
1) It's an armed force
2) It's tasked with protecting the Federation from foreign enemies
3) It has authoritative rule consistent with current militaries (Being charged with insubordination and disobeying orders)
4) It has a separate judicial system separate from civilian Federation courts
In Tomorrow is Yesterday...When Christopher asks if the Navy built the Enterprise, Kirk responds that its a combined service.
Again Picard can say they aren't a military until the cows come home but actions speak louder than words.
And yet Kirk says Starfleet is under the command of the United Earth Space Probe Agency in Tomorrow is Yesterday. So a canon source (Tomorrow is Yesterday) vs. a non-canon source (some book somewhere), hmm? Seems Starfleet is under the command of an organisation that does stuff with probes.
Looks like Picard (captain of a ship that regularly sends out probes) might know what he's talking about, well besides from being the captain of the flagship of Starfleet.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I'm roleplaying my character as a combat engineer whose squad was put together under a larger program as an answer to the type of threat that the Iconians showed can exist. From their perspective, all of the episodes up until aoy are holo programs meant to further Starfleet's preparedness for the various threats in the universe. The battlezones are active situations which they are regularly deployed to.
If one were to look at the Starfleet Technical Manual, Chapter VIII, Article 52, Part 2: it says Starfleet is under the cognizance of the Federation Council and the Military Staff Committee.
Again Starfleet is a military:
1) It's an armed force
2) It's tasked with protecting the Federation from foreign enemies
3) It has authoritative rule consistent with current militaries (Being charged with insubordination and disobeying orders)
4) It has a separate judicial system separate from civilian Federation courts
In Tomorrow is Yesterday...When Christopher asks if the Navy built the Enterprise, Kirk responds that its a combined service.
Again Picard can say they aren't a military until the cows come home but actions speak louder than words.
And yet Kirk says Starfleet is under the command of the United Earth Space Probe Agency in Tomorrow is Yesterday. So a canon source (Tomorrow is Yesterday) vs. a non-canon source (some book somewhere), hmm? Seems Starfleet is under the command of an organisation that does stuff with probes.
Looks like Picard (captain of a ship that regularly sends out probes) might know what he's talking about, well besides from being the captain of the flagship of Starfleet.
I believe some of those "Starfleet tech manual" books were written by the show creators. But i think the one that Khan is talking was written by some writer who used Tomorrow is Yesterday as a source for his book. Wikipedia even goes on to say that "Although it is fiction, the book is presented as an in-universe collection of factual documents". But of course its wikipedia and <insert meme about everything on the internet being true> so yah. I lost my copy of the tech manual in the Alpha quadrant and i havent watched any ToS episodes in a really long time so i cant say if the book and shows match up or if the writer took a few liberties and made some stuff up. Besides...its not like it would be the first time an official source changed something in another official source.
I believe some of those "Starfleet tech manual" books were written by the show creators. But i think the one that Khan is talking was written by some writer who used Tomorrow is Yesterday as a source for his book. Wikipedia even goes on to say that "Although it is fiction, the book is presented as an in-universe collection of factual documents". But of course its wikipedia and <insert meme about everything on the internet being true> so yah. I lost my copy of the tech manual in the Alpha quadrant and i havent watched any ToS episodes in a really long time so i cant say if the book and shows match up or if the writer took a few liberties and made some stuff up. Besides...its not like it would be the first time an official source changed something in another official source.
The "Starfleet Technical Manual" @khan5000 refers to is written and published by Franz Joseph and is the source book for the Starfleet Universe tabletop- and videogames (Starfleet Command 1-3). It has literally no tie-ins with canon Star Trek and can't be a source for the debate at hoof. The Mauals you mean are the TNG Technical Manual, the DS9 Technical Manual and the unpublished but "leaked" (it was released non-commercially online) Voyager Season One Technical Manual. These books were written by Okuda and others and served as reference books for the show's writers, they're as official as it gets but are, due to the nature of how Canon is handled, trumped by on-screen occurences. Still, they are a valid secondary source in my opinion but not one I have referenced so far.
Starfleet has long been charged with a broad spectrum of responsibilities to the citizens of the Federation and to the lifeforms of the galaxy at large. As the volume of explored space continues to grow, and with it the Federation itself, so do Starfleet's duties. These duties range from relatively mundane domestic and civil missions, to cultural contact and diplomacy, to defense, to our primary mission of exploration and research. Many of these responsibilities are best carried out with relatively small, specialized ships. Yet there continues to be an ongoing need for a small number of larger, multimission vehicles that are capable of implementing the complete range of Starfleet's objectives. This need has in fact grown as the volume of relatively unexplored space within Federation influence continues to expand.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
If one were to look at the Starfleet Technical Manual, Chapter VIII, Article 52, Part 2: it says Starfleet is under the cognizance of the Federation Council and the Military Staff Committee.
Again Starfleet is a military:
1) It's an armed force
2) It's tasked with protecting the Federation from foreign enemies
3) It has authoritative rule consistent with current militaries (Being charged with insubordination and disobeying orders)
4) It has a separate judicial system separate from civilian Federation courts
In Tomorrow is Yesterday...When Christopher asks if the Navy built the Enterprise, Kirk responds that its a combined service.
Again Picard can say they aren't a military until the cows come home but actions speak louder than words.
And yet Kirk says Starfleet is under the command of the United Earth Space Probe Agency in Tomorrow is Yesterday. So a canon source (Tomorrow is Yesterday) vs. a non-canon source (some book somewhere), hmm? Seems Starfleet is under the command of an organisation that does stuff with probes.
Looks like Picard (captain of a ship that regularly sends out probes) might know what he's talking about, well besides from being the captain of the flagship of Starfleet.
I believe some of those "Starfleet tech manual" books were written by the show creators. But i think the one that Khan is talking was written by some writer who used Tomorrow is Yesterday as a source for his book. Wikipedia even goes on to say that "Although it is fiction, the book is presented as an in-universe collection of factual documents". But of course its wikipedia and <insert meme about everything on the internet being true> so yah. I lost my copy of the tech manual in the Alpha quadrant and i havent watched any ToS episodes in a really long time so i cant say if the book and shows match up or if the writer took a few liberties and made some stuff up. Besides...its not like it would be the first time an official source changed something in another official source.
That's not the point. It doesn't matter if the book lines up with the episode or not. The book doesn't count. The episode is canon the book is not.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
If one were to look at the Starfleet Technical Manual, Chapter VIII, Article 52, Part 2: it says Starfleet is under the cognizance of the Federation Council and the Military Staff Committee.
Again Starfleet is a military:
1) It's an armed force
2) It's tasked with protecting the Federation from foreign enemies
3) It has authoritative rule consistent with current militaries (Being charged with insubordination and disobeying orders)
4) It has a separate judicial system separate from civilian Federation courts
In Tomorrow is Yesterday...When Christopher asks if the Navy built the Enterprise, Kirk responds that its a combined service.
Again Picard can say they aren't a military until the cows come home but actions speak louder than words.
And yet Kirk says Starfleet is under the command of the United Earth Space Probe Agency in Tomorrow is Yesterday. So a canon source (Tomorrow is Yesterday) vs. a non-canon source (some book somewhere), hmm? Seems Starfleet is under the command of an organisation that does stuff with probes.
Looks like Picard (captain of a ship that regularly sends out probes) might know what he's talking about, well besides from being the captain of the flagship of Starfleet.
I believe some of those "Starfleet tech manual" books were written by the show creators. But i think the one that Khan is talking was written by some writer who used Tomorrow is Yesterday as a source for his book. Wikipedia even goes on to say that "Although it is fiction, the book is presented as an in-universe collection of factual documents". But of course its wikipedia and <insert meme about everything on the internet being true> so yah. I lost my copy of the tech manual in the Alpha quadrant and i havent watched any ToS episodes in a really long time so i cant say if the book and shows match up or if the writer took a few liberties and made some stuff up. Besides...its not like it would be the first time an official source changed something in another official source.
That's not the point. It doesn't matter if the book lines up with the episode or not. The book doesn't count. The episode is canon the book is not.
Again with moving those goal posts. Cherry picking, throwing out whatever doesn't suit your needs and using examples once blown out of the water you move goal posts.
What is starfleet? Starfleet is basically what would happen if the US Navy absorbed NASA and combined all missions. Starfleet could have multiple arms. Exploration, that's just like the navy's Oceanographic Command. Security/boarding forces, well hell USN has them too before even calling on the Marines since the Marines don't serve on every USN ship anymore. MACO = US Navy SEALS.
Just come to grips already. Starfleet is a MILITARY ORGANIZATION. Just happens to be expanded to do a LOT of non-military functions. And hell Picard on a flagship? What was HMS Hood for the British in between WW1 and WW2? Britians Flagship who did a ton of peaceful flag showing missions. Just like CVN-65 AKA USS ENTERPRISE. Yeah the carrier Enterprise did do a bunch of combat missions just like *gasp* ANY Enterprise from the show, but she also showed the world that she was the first Carrier to sail around the world and not need refueling.
You know this picture:
US Military once again for the umpteenth time, isn't always about going in and blowing stuff up. They do many functions outside of that just like starfleet.
Just give it up already.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
Oh for goodness sake. It seems your not even reading at this point. If you want to headcanon a militry Starfleet with marines and ninjas and other types, go ahead.
If you want to pretend any militry in the world has a mission profile of five years of exploration then go ahead. That's your headcanon for real life.
If you want to ignore any points made by anybody in the thread expect the people screaming that military's survey things occasionally (which include me by the way, which is why it's obvious your not even reading anymore.) Then go ahead. Mostly it's people throwing evidence back and forth not just people like you who have presupposed a militant SF and will hear no evidence to the contary.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Oh for goodness sake. It seems your not even reading at this point. If you want to headcanon a militry Starfleet with marines and ninjas and other types, go ahead.
If you want to pretend any militry in the world has a mission profile of five years of exploration then go ahead. That's your headcanon for real life.
If you want to ignore any points made by anybody in the thread expect the people screaming that military's survey things occasionally (which include me by the way, which is why it's obvious your not even reading anymore.) Then go ahead. Mostly it's people throwing evidence back and forth not just people like you who have presupposed a militant SF and will hear no evidence to the contary.
Your "evidence" has been heard, and shot down. You are doing exactly what I am claiming. Keep going, just comical now.
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Oh for goodness sake. It seems your not even reading at this point. If you want to headcanon a militry Starfleet with marines and ninjas and other types, go ahead.
(...)
That'd be so awesome. I also want Pirates in EV suits being launched from torpedo tubes!
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Oh for goodness sake. It seems your not even reading at this point. If you want to headcanon a militry Starfleet with marines and ninjas and other types, go ahead.
(...)
That'd be so awesome. I also want Pirates in EV suits being launched from torpedo tubes!
No I want beamable ninja assassins who are based on Data.
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No I want beamable ninja assassins who are based on Data.
"based on" as in they're living in a tent on his back I presume
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
No I want beamable ninja assassins who are based on Data.
"based on" as in they're living in a tent on his back I presume
Lol, but riddle me this. Why would a peaceful organization commit ESPIONAGE. Considering Mr. Peace himself has done it what 3 times, and sanctioned another mission against the Cardassians that got that young Bajorian Ensign killed?
When someone can explain that to me, then you can sit there and say "Starfleet is not a military."
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There have been no rebuttals of the UESPA. There has been no rebuttal of Picard as flagship captian explicitly stating Starfleets purpose. There has been no rebuttal of O'Brien leaving the militry to join Starfleet to stop being a soldier. There has been no evidence provided for the military!Starfleets fleets in constant patrolles around DMZs and NZs. No explanation for the unmilitry layout of Starfleet. So far your arguments have ammonted to 'only militaries have ranks', 'militaries explore as well so anyone with guns who explores is a military' and the fantastic 'this non- canon thing says it's a military so I'll ignore canon to keep my 21st views I the future intact'.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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My character Tsin'xing
The why isn't all that important I'd say as long as the precedent, that seems absolutely necessary to accept what a fictional sci-fi service is or does, is intact. Pretty much every case inw hich paramilitaries substitute for standing armies has some reason, of course, but it exists and it works. I didn't say it's the norm, Star Trek asks to open your mind about some things that aren't all that normal by the time it was made and maybe even more alien in our rpesent time when radicalisation got a huge popularity boost.
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Wow and here comes the moving Goal posts. Just face it you're world is crumbling and you're simply reaching for straws.
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Research organizations also don't carry firepower sufficient to slag inhabited worlds, but Starfleet does, and has done since the franchise's earliest days; the mere existence of General Order 24 is proof enough of that. Picard is very much an anomaly; Kirk openly admitted he was a soldier.
USS Bajor has a dedicated assault unit drawn from crew members with advanced combat training, and Captain Kanril Eleya is MACO-qualified.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
My character Tsin'xing
In peacetime the US Coast can be considered semi-paramilitary since it is under the U.S. Dept of Homeland Security and a multi-mission force combined with maritime law enforcement. In wartime it can be placed under the Navy if directed by the president. But yes it is the fifth branch of the armed forces.
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I'm going to need a better definition of what semi-paramilitary is here.
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I get the point, but it's not relevant in this case. The only reason I brought it up in the first is that there is a RL precedent (not only in Gemrany) where the setup works. The UFP wouldn't need anyone to pressure them but simply choose the model voluntarily as they do not want a military outside representation (the ships' armament have often enough caused diplomatic concerns, though). And the need for defense is of course given, but it's also what Starfleet does. You don't need a formal military to defend yourself, you can also use a functional equivalent service that doesn't identify as military which definitely applies to Starfleet according to canonical exposition and world building.
The argument that Picard is an exception or somehow deluded is also not correct. Picard's statements serve as exposition and world building. If it had been a singular opinion someone had to fight him on it. If a character tells misleading information for a reason the medium has to tell the audience so like it did with basically everything Dukat said, for example. Aside from Picard you also have O'Brien literally stating he's not a soldier serving Starfleet, you have the defining catchphrase of the show (for crying out loud) setting the tone and premise as well as a number of in-universe hints like the Academy's credo. On the other hoof you have a single sentence of Kirk that, for some reason, weighs more than contrary statements (plural) or complete silence on the matter in the rest of canon. I find it more likely to view it as a metaphorical statement.
I would in principle not really want to argue with "if the body fights for a government it's a military" (ignoring that historically and factually it doesn't have to be that way), however in Star Trek's case it is very much on record that it isn't and conclusions can be drawn as made in this thread in addition to the fact that Star Trek is not real life and Starfleet is the product of a fictional artistic vision of something which is defined by what we're told through the medium. Starfleet fights, Picard is a battlefield commander nobody questions that. But Starfleet's purpose is exploration and research, the defense function is integrated because of the resources and manpower given. In the real world these two thing are just inverted, Militaries perform aid missions and help in research because they have the equipment that would otherwise be necessary to provide with a lot more effort and material so they simply help out with it. You wouldn't however really start an argument that a military is founded with the intention of being a humanitarian organization. Star Trek spins that expectation around as we're to believe that the UFP is a pacifistic society with the primary mindset of heading into a bright and peaceful future and even in real life there have been attempts to go there by formally abolishing a military. Should one's personal political believes go contrary to that that's one thing but it doesn't really change what we're looking at. This argument would shift in weight if for example the new show explicitly makes Starfleet a military, if anyone identifies it as military and isn't fought on it. In the movies we have Marcus' statement about the military taking away their research, true. The same movies have the line that an end to the Klingon-UFP war causes some concern that it would mean the end of Starfleet. In the latter case though the worries are disputed by stating that the exploration purpose still persists (why anyone would even question that in the first place is beyond me as it doesn't make sense for any character in-universe to do so) as well as treating the Klingon war as if that's the only conflict Starfleet deals with or that it was founded for that purpose alone. We later have however more occasions and indication vocally and subtly redeeming these points. If that would now happen the other way around, as I said, we had some basis for debate.
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enemy miserable if you where close enough to the enemy ship and both you and the enemy
shields were down.
Due to game mechanics...that was often.
Due to complications...I really can't see it used here.
SFB = Starfleet Battles
There are boarding parties in this game
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Unfortunately severly underused. Cryptic really needs to revisit them to make them a worthwhile alternative. On my Klingon character I use them a lot but only because it's DOFFed to spawn six shuttles and those are armed with disruptor point defense and really manage to deal some damage.
In my opinion Boarding Party needs at least the following improvements: Shuttles auto-targeting another enemy once the target has been destroyed - now they just sit there and do nothing. Boarding Party disable effects not countered by disable resistance and traits - since a BP disable is people boarding the ship and actually doing something instead of it being a drain or computer virus there had to be other counters. And "TT 1" shouldn't clear out all Boarding Parties. A BP III is more powerful so it should require a TT III to clear, lower TT have a chance to do so but not 100%.
Further it would be great is BPs would get a chance depending on enemy ship health (since they removed crew, good job...) to temporarily take control of the enemy ship. It would mechanically be akin to a prolonged confuse so the captured ship attacks it's allies. And if we'd really wanted to change things around it should be possible to let enemy ships surrender after being boarded, taking them out of the fight and awarding a bit of diplomacy/marauding xp instead of kill xp.
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Again Starfleet is a military:
1) It's an armed force
2) It's tasked with protecting the Federation from foreign enemies
3) It has authoritative rule consistent with current militaries (Being charged with insubordination and disobeying orders)
4) It has a separate judicial system separate from civilian Federation courts
In Tomorrow is Yesterday...When Christopher asks if the Navy built the Enterprise, Kirk responds that its a combined service.
Again Picard can say they aren't a military until the cows come home but actions speak louder than words.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
How many research organisations can you list that operate near Klingon territory?
Also how many military ships (from any country) will have a five year exploration mandate with the task of seeking out new life and new civilisations?
The Federation has some sort of army, O'Brien was in it, he left the military (and being a soldier) to join Starfleet to become an Engineer.
To others, I understand the military does survey and exploration work, the current Enterprise (H88), is classed as a Survey Vessel - Hydrographic Oceanographic. But that is not the military's primary job.
Military: Defence primary, surveying secondary.
Starfleet: Exploration primary, defence secondary.
Starfleet had no ships patrolling the Cardassian DMZ (obviously not in it), they have no ships stationed near the Klingon or Romulan NZ, the had no permanent fleet at DS9, they never have ships stationed at Earth or Vulcan. Why? Because all their ships are out exploring strange worlds, seeking out new life and new civilisations. Because they are a service of explorers, colonisers, humanitarian aid, surveying, and research who often operate in the unknown necessitating big guns. Sometimes they're required to use those big guns in defence of the Federation, but not often. The Federation out sizes the Klingon and Romulan Empires combined, that's enough of a deterrent.
And yet Kirk says Starfleet is under the command of the United Earth Space Probe Agency in Tomorrow is Yesterday. So a canon source (Tomorrow is Yesterday) vs. a non-canon source (some book somewhere), hmm? Seems Starfleet is under the command of an organisation that does stuff with probes.
Looks like Picard (captain of a ship that regularly sends out probes) might know what he's talking about, well besides from being the captain of the flagship of Starfleet.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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So do I have marines? No, but.....
I believe some of those "Starfleet tech manual" books were written by the show creators. But i think the one that Khan is talking was written by some writer who used Tomorrow is Yesterday as a source for his book. Wikipedia even goes on to say that "Although it is fiction, the book is presented as an in-universe collection of factual documents". But of course its wikipedia and <insert meme about everything on the internet being true> so yah. I lost my copy of the tech manual in the Alpha quadrant and i havent watched any ToS episodes in a really long time so i cant say if the book and shows match up or if the writer took a few liberties and made some stuff up. Besides...its not like it would be the first time an official source changed something in another official source.
The "Starfleet Technical Manual" @khan5000 refers to is written and published by Franz Joseph and is the source book for the Starfleet Universe tabletop- and videogames (Starfleet Command 1-3). It has literally no tie-ins with canon Star Trek and can't be a source for the debate at hoof. The Mauals you mean are the TNG Technical Manual, the DS9 Technical Manual and the unpublished but "leaked" (it was released non-commercially online) Voyager Season One Technical Manual. These books were written by Okuda and others and served as reference books for the show's writers, they're as official as it gets but are, due to the nature of how Canon is handled, trumped by on-screen occurences. Still, they are a valid secondary source in my opinion but not one I have referenced so far.
If I would, it'd read:
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That's not the point. It doesn't matter if the book lines up with the episode or not. The book doesn't count. The episode is canon the book is not.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Again with moving those goal posts. Cherry picking, throwing out whatever doesn't suit your needs and using examples once blown out of the water you move goal posts.
What is starfleet? Starfleet is basically what would happen if the US Navy absorbed NASA and combined all missions. Starfleet could have multiple arms. Exploration, that's just like the navy's Oceanographic Command. Security/boarding forces, well hell USN has them too before even calling on the Marines since the Marines don't serve on every USN ship anymore. MACO = US Navy SEALS.
Just come to grips already. Starfleet is a MILITARY ORGANIZATION. Just happens to be expanded to do a LOT of non-military functions. And hell Picard on a flagship? What was HMS Hood for the British in between WW1 and WW2? Britians Flagship who did a ton of peaceful flag showing missions. Just like CVN-65 AKA USS ENTERPRISE. Yeah the carrier Enterprise did do a bunch of combat missions just like *gasp* ANY Enterprise from the show, but she also showed the world that she was the first Carrier to sail around the world and not need refueling.
You know this picture:
US Military once again for the umpteenth time, isn't always about going in and blowing stuff up. They do many functions outside of that just like starfleet.
Just give it up already.
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http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
If you want to pretend any militry in the world has a mission profile of five years of exploration then go ahead. That's your headcanon for real life.
If you want to ignore any points made by anybody in the thread expect the people screaming that military's survey things occasionally (which include me by the way, which is why it's obvious your not even reading anymore.) Then go ahead. Mostly it's people throwing evidence back and forth not just people like you who have presupposed a militant SF and will hear no evidence to the contary.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Your "evidence" has been heard, and shot down. You are doing exactly what I am claiming. Keep going, just comical now.
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http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
That'd be so awesome. I also want Pirates in EV suits being launched from torpedo tubes!
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No I want beamable ninja assassins who are based on Data.
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http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
"based on" as in they're living in a tent on his back I presume
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Lol, but riddle me this. Why would a peaceful organization commit ESPIONAGE. Considering Mr. Peace himself has done it what 3 times, and sanctioned another mission against the Cardassians that got that young Bajorian Ensign killed?
When someone can explain that to me, then you can sit there and say "Starfleet is not a military."
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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