Lol, but riddle me this. Why would a peaceful organization commit ESPIONAGE. Considering Mr. Peace himself has done it what 3 times, and sanctioned another mission against the Cardassians that got that young Bajorian Ensign killed?
When someone can explain that to me, then you can sit there and say "Starfleet is not a military."
I'd say it falls under collecting intelligence? I mean, why do you assume being peaceful means being passive and completely oblivious to your surroundings?
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Lol, but riddle me this. Why would a peaceful organization commit ESPIONAGE. Considering Mr. Peace himself has done it what 3 times, and sanctioned another mission against the Cardassians that got that young Bajorian Ensign killed?
When someone can explain that to me, then you can sit there and say "Starfleet is not a military."
I'd say it falls under collecting intelligence? I mean, why do you assume being peaceful means being passive and completely oblivious to your surroundings?
that reminded me that TOS episode "Enterprise incident"....
but then if you ask me - starfleet is clearly to me military although not in 100% of the meaning we are currently attaching to the word - think of SDF mashed up with exploration fleet.
the quotes from picard stating starfleet is not military - considering their context may be to avoid misunderstanding on starfleet priorities [exploration and defence of federation] and take it as an usuall navy thing
the dude joining starfleet to stop being military - well starfleet has alot of personel that is not military focused so....
btw maybe next time when such discuss will occur maybe you should guys looks for explanation working for all onscreen evidence instead of assuming that if quotes from different characters seems to go against each other then it must be plot inconsistency?
There has been no rebuttal of O'Brien leaving the militry to join Starfleet to stop being a soldier. .
What the... talk about making TRIBBLE up.. O'Brien never left the "military" he was in Starfleet as a Tactical officer on the USS Rutledge during the Cardassian War (The TNG episode "The Wounded"). He was a Tactical officer and switched to engineering. Very similar to Worf switching from a Security officer to a command officer.. he didn't leave anything he changed his classification with in Starfleet to do a different job.... So using your argument faulty as it is he left one military job and posting for a different military job as you said he was in the military.. well the only military he was in was Starfleet.
Oh also there are many times in the show they patrolled the DMZ even of minor factions... funny how you totally left out the multiple times the Enterprise D was called to patrol the romulan DMZ or as well the Defiant was also ordered to patrol many times even before the Dominion war... or do you thing all those lines in the show where they said "the defient is on patrol" or Captain logs of "we are returning from patrolling" you think those were what.. mistakes?
Also there is no official anything on the relationship between UESPA and Starfeet so using UESPA is subjective.
There have been no rebuttals of the UESPA. There has been no rebuttal of Picard as flagship captian explicitly stating Starfleets purpose.
Gotta wait for a new Star Trek show/movie to come along with something completely different (that suits its own plot) before anyone can come up with a rebuttal =P
No I want beamable ninja assassins who are based on Data.
"based on" as in they're living in a tent on his back I presume
Lol, but riddle me this. Why would a peaceful organization commit ESPIONAGE. Considering Mr. Peace himself has done it what 3 times, and sanctioned another mission against the Cardassians that got that young Bajorian Ensign killed?
When someone can explain that to me, then you can sit there and say "Starfleet is not a military."
hey, genius? you ARE aware, i hope, that CIVILIAN (aka 'peaceful') organizations commit espionage all the time against each other
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
I suspect all my Federation ships would have at least some form of military on-board who specialize in ground combat, in the 25th century it would be pretty much required with the continuous conflict with Iconians, Undine, Borg, Voth etc.
Both the Airwolf (captain String Fellow Hawke) and the Athena (captain Jack Bauer) would very likely have highly trained marines on board as there ships primary function is combat on the front lines. The Themyscira (captain Wonder Woman) would have an army of amazonian demi-goddess who specialize in melee combat (one of whom is half klingon, good luck trying to assimilate them). The Prodigy (captain Jack Pearman) is an experimental science ship (Aventine class), since the ship carries such powerful experimental weaponry vital to the defense of the federation, you can bet there would be some serious protection on board in case of hostile boarding parties. The Gysbertina (captain Edwin), although more of a ship for diplomacy/exploration, you can bet with all the conflicts the federation has been involved in recently there would be marines on board.
Lol, but riddle me this. Why would a peaceful organization commit ESPIONAGE. Considering Mr. Peace himself has done it what 3 times, and sanctioned another mission against the Cardassians that got that young Bajorian Ensign killed?
When someone can explain that to me, then you can sit there and say "Starfleet is not a military."
I'd say it falls under collecting intelligence? I mean, why do you assume being peaceful means being passive and completely oblivious to your surroundings?
No I want beamable ninja assassins who are based on Data.
"based on" as in they're living in a tent on his back I presume
Lol, but riddle me this. Why would a peaceful organization commit ESPIONAGE. Considering Mr. Peace himself has done it what 3 times, and sanctioned another mission against the Cardassians that got that young Bajorian Ensign killed?
When someone can explain that to me, then you can sit there and say "Starfleet is not a military."
hey, genius? you ARE aware, i hope, that CIVILIAN (aka 'peaceful') organizations commit espionage all the time against each other
To you two gentlemen. Those Civilian agencies that do espionage and intel gathering are specific agencies who are purpose built to do so like CIA, NSA DSGE, MI5, FSB etc.
Starfleet is not purpose built to do such things. Though they do have an organic Intel branch which is just like gee, the US Military. Each branch of the Military has it's own military intelligence service, gee just like what I used to do in the US Marine Corps. I was a 2621 Ground Electronic Warfare, Signals Intelligence Collector/Analyst. Military Intelligence, much LtCmdr Kyla VanZyl who is an intelligence operative and answers to Star Fleet.
Come one guys killing me here.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
To you two gentlemen. Those Civilian agencies that do espionage and intel gathering are specific agencies who are purpose built to do so like CIA, NSA DSGE, MI5, FSB etc.
Starfleet is not purpose built to do such things. Though they do have an organic Intel branch which is just like gee, the US Military. Each branch of the Military has it's own military intelligence service, gee just like what I used to do in the US Marine Corps. (...)
I'm not a gentleman. Soemtimes I'm a gentletarg, though.
Aside from that, you can conclude whatever you want as Starfleet is not the club you were in. It makes sense for the defensive service to be informed about intelligence of neighbouring powers. The non military and primary mission definitions are on the table though and they do not get rewritten no matter how many parallels (that exist, nobody doubted that, although none of them are exclusive) you point out. Whatever you conclude ignores the canonical exposition and is a lot brain acrobatics to compensate for whatever it is you feel is inappropriate about a service providing defense as a secondary function. Literally nothing in the continuity changes. If it weren't writtend own and stated in canon I wouldn't even have this discussion
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Words mean nothing if the actions don't back up the words. Example: In Voyager it's mentioned they only had 36 photon torpedoes. Throughout the course of the show they use 150 (numbers are off but they used more than they state they have). It doesn't matter how many times they state 36 it's just not true. Just like no matter how many times they say they aren't a military their actions prove them to be one. It doesn't matter what their primary mission is...if their mission is to defend the Federation...they are a military. I also think that part of the disconnect is people see the military as a bad thing...and most of the people who were in the military (myself included) don't see much of a difference between why they did on screen and what we did in the service. I am willing to bet I can take one of my "adventures" and paint it in a Star Trek setting and it would not be off.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Lol, but riddle me this. Why would a peaceful organization commit ESPIONAGE. Considering Mr. Peace himself has done it what 3 times, and sanctioned another mission against the Cardassians that got that young Bajorian Ensign killed?
When someone can explain that to me, then you can sit there and say "Starfleet is not a military."
I'd say it falls under collecting intelligence? I mean, why do you assume being peaceful means being passive and completely oblivious to your surroundings?
No I want beamable ninja assassins who are based on Data.
"based on" as in they're living in a tent on his back I presume
Lol, but riddle me this. Why would a peaceful organization commit ESPIONAGE. Considering Mr. Peace himself has done it what 3 times, and sanctioned another mission against the Cardassians that got that young Bajorian Ensign killed?
When someone can explain that to me, then you can sit there and say "Starfleet is not a military."
hey, genius? you ARE aware, i hope, that CIVILIAN (aka 'peaceful') organizations commit espionage all the time against each other
To you two gentlemen. Those Civilian agencies that do espionage and intel gathering are specific agencies who are purpose built to do so like CIA, NSA DSGE, MI5, FSB etc.
Starfleet is not purpose built to do such things. Though they do have an organic Intel branch which is just like gee, the US Military. Each branch of the Military has it's own military intelligence service, gee just like what I used to do in the US Marine Corps. I was a 2621 Ground Electronic Warfare, Signals Intelligence Collector/Analyst. Military Intelligence, much LtCmdr Kyla VanZyl who is an intelligence operative and answers to Star Fleet.
Come one guys killing me here.
Are we at Section 31 yet or not?
I will check back to the thread when we are at Section 31. Ty. Carry on guys.
Lol, but riddle me this. Why would a peaceful organization commit ESPIONAGE. Considering Mr. Peace himself has done it what 3 times, and sanctioned another mission against the Cardassians that got that young Bajorian Ensign killed?
When someone can explain that to me, then you can sit there and say "Starfleet is not a military."
I'd say it falls under collecting intelligence? I mean, why do you assume being peaceful means being passive and completely oblivious to your surroundings?
No I want beamable ninja assassins who are based on Data.
"based on" as in they're living in a tent on his back I presume
Lol, but riddle me this. Why would a peaceful organization commit ESPIONAGE. Considering Mr. Peace himself has done it what 3 times, and sanctioned another mission against the Cardassians that got that young Bajorian Ensign killed?
When someone can explain that to me, then you can sit there and say "Starfleet is not a military."
hey, genius? you ARE aware, i hope, that CIVILIAN (aka 'peaceful') organizations commit espionage all the time against each other
To you two gentlemen. Those Civilian agencies that do espionage and intel gathering are specific agencies who are purpose built to do so like CIA, NSA DSGE, MI5, FSB etc.
Starfleet is not purpose built to do such things. Though they do have an organic Intel branch which is just like gee, the US Military. Each branch of the Military has it's own military intelligence service, gee just like what I used to do in the US Marine Corps. I was a 2621 Ground Electronic Warfare, Signals Intelligence Collector/Analyst. Military Intelligence, much LtCmdr Kyla VanZyl who is an intelligence operative and answers to Star Fleet.
Come one guys killing me here.
Are we at Section 31 yet or not?
I will check back to the thread when we are at Section 31. Ty. Carry on guys.
Section 31. The intelligence arm of the Federation. A fully official and legitimised organisation with headquarters in the Daystrom Institute in London and a Starbase in orbit around Jupiter. They receive their orders directly from the Federation Council and not in anyway from Starfleet (who have Starfleet Intelligence) however are able to utilise Federation resources and personnel and give orders to high ranking officers (such as Ross). They are heavily funded and have the resources to build the Dreadnought Class USS Vengence which is under S31's direct control and not related to Starfleet in any way.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Point was that they did it because of pressure from outside forces. What outside forces would cause the UFP to do the same? Also... The Germans have no reason to NEED to defend themselves because the treaty gives them protection.
I get the point, but it's not relevant in this case. The only reason I brought it up in the first is that there is a RL precedent (not only in Germany) where the setup works. The UFP wouldn't need anyone to pressure them but simply choose the model voluntarily as they do not want a military outside representation (the ships' armament have often enough caused diplomatic concerns, though). And the need for defense is of course given, but it's also what Starfleet does. You don't need a formal military to defend yourself, you can also use a functional equivalent service that doesn't identify as military which definitely applies to Starfleet according to canonical exposition and world building.
The argument that Picard is an exception or somehow deluded is also not correct. Picard's statements serve as exposition and world building. If it had been a singular opinion someone had to fight him on it. If a character tells misleading information for a reason the medium has to tell the audience so like it did with basically everything Dukat said, for example. Aside from Picard you also have O'Brien literally stating he's not a soldier serving Starfleet, you have the defining catchphrase of the show (for crying out loud) setting the tone and premise as well as a number of in-universe hints like the Academy's credo. On the other hoof you have a single sentence of Kirk that, for some reason, weighs more than contrary statements (plural) or complete silence on the matter in the rest of canon. I find it more likely to view it as a metaphorical statement.
I would in principle not really want to argue with "if the body fights for a government it's a military" (ignoring that historically and factually it doesn't have to be that way), however in Star Trek's case it is very much on record that it isn't and conclusions can be drawn as made in this thread in addition to the fact that Star Trek is not real life and Starfleet is the product of a fictional artistic vision of something which is defined by what we're told through the medium.
Well, I've yet to see an example of a country that VOLUNTARILY forgoes having a military when they actually need one. Also... the "artistic vision" is kinda muddled since the presentation is erratic at best. Especially in Picard's case. As Q was fond of pointing out, what Picard said and what he actually DID were not always aligned with each other.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Comments
I'd say it falls under collecting intelligence? I mean, why do you assume being peaceful means being passive and completely oblivious to your surroundings?
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that reminded me that TOS episode "Enterprise incident"....
but then if you ask me - starfleet is clearly to me military although not in 100% of the meaning we are currently attaching to the word - think of SDF mashed up with exploration fleet.
the quotes from picard stating starfleet is not military - considering their context may be to avoid misunderstanding on starfleet priorities [exploration and defence of federation] and take it as an usuall navy thing
the dude joining starfleet to stop being military - well starfleet has alot of personel that is not military focused so....
btw maybe next time when such discuss will occur maybe you should guys looks for explanation working for all onscreen evidence instead of assuming that if quotes from different characters seems to go against each other then it must be plot inconsistency?
What the... talk about making TRIBBLE up.. O'Brien never left the "military" he was in Starfleet as a Tactical officer on the USS Rutledge during the Cardassian War (The TNG episode "The Wounded"). He was a Tactical officer and switched to engineering. Very similar to Worf switching from a Security officer to a command officer.. he didn't leave anything he changed his classification with in Starfleet to do a different job.... So using your argument faulty as it is he left one military job and posting for a different military job as you said he was in the military.. well the only military he was in was Starfleet.
Oh also there are many times in the show they patrolled the DMZ even of minor factions... funny how you totally left out the multiple times the Enterprise D was called to patrol the romulan DMZ or as well the Defiant was also ordered to patrol many times even before the Dominion war... or do you thing all those lines in the show where they said "the defient is on patrol" or Captain logs of "we are returning from patrolling" you think those were what.. mistakes?
Also there is no official anything on the relationship between UESPA and Starfeet so using UESPA is subjective.
Gotta wait for a new Star Trek show/movie to come along with something completely different (that suits its own plot) before anyone can come up with a rebuttal =P
hey, genius? you ARE aware, i hope, that CIVILIAN (aka 'peaceful') organizations commit espionage all the time against each other
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Both the Airwolf (captain String Fellow Hawke) and the Athena (captain Jack Bauer) would very likely have highly trained marines on board as there ships primary function is combat on the front lines. The Themyscira (captain Wonder Woman) would have an army of amazonian demi-goddess who specialize in melee combat (one of whom is half klingon, good luck trying to assimilate them). The Prodigy (captain Jack Pearman) is an experimental science ship (Aventine class), since the ship carries such powerful experimental weaponry vital to the defense of the federation, you can bet there would be some serious protection on board in case of hostile boarding parties. The Gysbertina (captain Edwin), although more of a ship for diplomacy/exploration, you can bet with all the conflicts the federation has been involved in recently there would be marines on board.
S**t, I think about this stuff too much.
To you two gentlemen. Those Civilian agencies that do espionage and intel gathering are specific agencies who are purpose built to do so like CIA, NSA DSGE, MI5, FSB etc.
Starfleet is not purpose built to do such things. Though they do have an organic Intel branch which is just like gee, the US Military. Each branch of the Military has it's own military intelligence service, gee just like what I used to do in the US Marine Corps. I was a 2621 Ground Electronic Warfare, Signals Intelligence Collector/Analyst. Military Intelligence, much LtCmdr Kyla VanZyl who is an intelligence operative and answers to Star Fleet.
Come one guys killing me here.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
I'm not a gentleman. Soemtimes I'm a gentletarg, though.
Aside from that, you can conclude whatever you want as Starfleet is not the club you were in. It makes sense for the defensive service to be informed about intelligence of neighbouring powers. The non military and primary mission definitions are on the table though and they do not get rewritten no matter how many parallels (that exist, nobody doubted that, although none of them are exclusive) you point out. Whatever you conclude ignores the canonical exposition and is a lot brain acrobatics to compensate for whatever it is you feel is inappropriate about a service providing defense as a secondary function. Literally nothing in the continuity changes. If it weren't writtend own and stated in canon I wouldn't even have this discussion
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I also think that part of the disconnect is people see the military as a bad thing...and most of the people who were in the military (myself included) don't see much of a difference between why they did on screen and what we did in the service. I am willing to bet I can take one of my "adventures" and paint it in a Star Trek setting and it would not be off.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Are we at Section 31 yet or not?
I will check back to the thread when we are at Section 31. Ty. Carry on guys.
Section 31. The intelligence arm of the Federation. A fully official and legitimised organisation with headquarters in the Daystrom Institute in London and a Starbase in orbit around Jupiter. They receive their orders directly from the Federation Council and not in anyway from Starfleet (who have Starfleet Intelligence) however are able to utilise Federation resources and personnel and give orders to high ranking officers (such as Ross). They are heavily funded and have the resources to build the Dreadnought Class USS Vengence which is under S31's direct control and not related to Starfleet in any way.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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My character Tsin'xing
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
And in "Tomorrow is Yesterday", and in Voyager
original join date 2010
Member: Team Trekyards. Visit Trekyards today!