and yet you can not explain the uniforms or what their purpose is.
It's probably a form of body armour/combat gear, which I even pointed out in the very first post I made regarding them. But that still doesn't mean that it's a special branch, just attire for a purpose. Starfleet issues training gear, desert gear, combat gear, maintenance jumpers, ev-suits, you name it - the right clothes for the right job.
The officers we see in the episode in question aren't identified as being anything but regular officers though. They use the same department colours, rank structure and, aside from the protective clothes, same weaponry as Sisko's party. To me there's literally nothing setting them apart.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
My ships have their own contingent of soldiers. Every Tactical/Science/Engineering Team power I use is me sending the Hazard Team to take care of that problem (afterall, Ensign Munro was fixing a Warp Core Breach, repelling boarders, etc, all things the various Team powers do), so it's easy for me to headcanon that my Hazard Team rushes in to clear boarding parties, set up emergency forcefields to seal hull breaches, isolates computer problems and reroutes things, all while the rest of the crew keeps the main parts of the ship going.
There's probably a squad of MACO and Omega soldiers on the larger ships once they're a part of each group fighting the big end-game enemies too.
I imagine there's more than a few butting heads over who's more important, Hazard Team, MACO, Omega, those two Starfleet Intel spies that nobody on board trusts, that sort of thing.
Oh one other thing, the Marines on my ship have been trained to use the PROPER position of attention in all appropriate situations, not that sloppy half attention/half parade rest thing starfleet officers use in STO.
No. Starfleet is an organization based on exploration and peace, There would be no "marines" or otherwise dedicated military combatants with the exception of shipboard security. Use ENT as an example all you like, MACOs are earth military, and those were the days before the Federation existed. No single television show or movie has ever, repeat EVER, shown a dedicated military combat force serving on board a Federation vessel.
Where were the marines when Voyager got sucked into the Delta quadrant? Where was SEAL team 6 when the BORG boarded the Enterprise D? I hate to break it to you, they didn't exist.
Starfleet holds to it's ideals on being peaceful, and as such does not carry a contingent of warriors on board, sorry to break it to you.
But what about those forces Sisko found on DS9, you know the mission Nog lost his legs? Those are what we called GROUND FORCES, MILITARY FORCES.
Again, I don't agree that the AR-558 personel were Marines. They had no special equipment, no special clothing (heck, they were wearing vests!), had Starfleet ranks and both Dr Bashir and Lieutenant Larkin explicitly stated that their health had sufferred as a result of the situation they were in. And they were NEVER referred to as 'Marines'.
Here's the problem. Most base the term Marine off of the US Marines. I'm going to let you in on a little secret since I AM a US Marine. Know the only real difference between a US Soldier and a US Marine. A uniform and esprit de corps. THAT'S IT.
My drill instructor even told me this once ad it's true. Only reason the US Marine Corps exists as a separate branch, is because the US people want it so. The US Army is capable of doing our job. Infact a few times the Corps almost got absorbed by the Army. Hell Like I stated only difference between a French soldier and a French marine, is the fact a marine is stationed on a ship and part of a specific unit that is designated to be marines. Other than that, same uniform, rank structure, answer to the same chains of command.
Marine when boiled down is a FUNCTION. Fighting from a ship to some other place. That's it. So those soldiers on the grounds, were indeed serving the functions as marines.
Hell the Army divisions assaulting Omaha and Utah beach, serving in the Marine function.
First, @talonxv, Thank-you for your service. I am also a veteran; I was a Fast Attack Submarine sonarman.
From time to time we had US Navy SEALS, SEAL Team 6, Marine Force Recon, and even MARSOC unit members on board to take them to their respective missions, helped and conducted training exercises for/with them. Sometimes we even had members from two or more of these groups at the same time.
This is what I disagree with you about:
"Here's the problem. Most base the term Marine off of the US Marines. I'm going to let you in on a little secret since I AM a US Marine. Know the only real difference between a US Soldier and a US Marine. A uniform and esprit de corps. THAT'S IT."
No. Starfleet is an organization based on exploration and peace, There would be no "marines" or otherwise dedicated military combatants with the exception of shipboard security. Use ENT as an example all you like, MACOs are earth military, and those were the days before the Federation existed. No single television show or movie has ever, repeat EVER, shown a dedicated military combat force serving on board a Federation vessel.
Where were the marines when Voyager got sucked into the Delta quadrant? Where was SEAL team 6 when the BORG boarded the Enterprise D? I hate to break it to you, they didn't exist.
Starfleet holds to it's ideals on being peaceful, and as such does not carry a contingent of warriors on board, sorry to break it to you.
But what about those forces Sisko found on DS9, you know the mission Nog lost his legs? Those are what we called GROUND FORCES, MILITARY FORCES.
Again, I don't agree that the AR-558 personel were Marines. They had no special equipment, no special clothing (heck, they were wearing vests!), had Starfleet ranks and both Dr Bashir and Lieutenant Larkin explicitly stated that their health had sufferred as a result of the situation they were in. And they were NEVER referred to as 'Marines'.
Here's the problem. Most base the term Marine off of the US Marines. I'm going to let you in on a little secret since I AM a US Marine. Know the only real difference between a US Soldier and a US Marine. A uniform and esprit de corps. THAT'S IT.
My drill instructor even told me this once ad it's true. Only reason the US Marine Corps exists as a separate branch, is because the US people want it so. The US Army is capable of doing our job. Infact a few times the Corps almost got absorbed by the Army. Hell Like I stated only difference between a French soldier and a French marine, is the fact a marine is stationed on a ship and part of a specific unit that is designated to be marines. Other than that, same uniform, rank structure, answer to the same chains of command.
Marine when boiled down is a FUNCTION. Fighting from a ship to some other place. That's it. So those soldiers on the grounds, were indeed serving the functions as marines.
Hell the Army divisions assaulting Omaha and Utah beach, serving in the Marine function.
First, @talonxv, Thank-you for your service. I am also a veteran; I was a Fast Attack Submarine sonarman.
From time to time we had US Navy SEALS, SEAL Team 6, Marine Force Recon, and even MARSOC unit members on board to take them to their respective missions, helped and conducted training exercises for/with them. Sometimes we even had members from two or more of these groups at the same time.
This is what I disagree with you about:
"Here's the problem. Most base the term Marine off of the US Marines. I'm going to let you in on a little secret since I AM a US Marine. Know the only real difference between a US Soldier and a US Marine. A uniform and esprit de corps. THAT'S IT."
Yeah, and MACO is none of the above. Also, from what I know of real-world spec ops guys, "spec ops guy" is basically a second job. They all have other skills. They pretty much all have weapons skills, but some are better with some things than others, for example: not everyone really knows demo. Everyone knows how to handle explosives, but careful demo work requires more skill and practice than is the norm. Not everyone is a master driver.... and so on and so forth.
My Fed ships would absolutely have marines... but I tend to agree its a department, not a separate service branch. Keeping at the necessary peak level of fitness and combat proficiency is kind of a full time job coupled with normal shipboard duties (guard rotations on the bridge, transport room, main engineering, the armory, and the brig - all areas you want to be able to deliver maximum violence in a heartbeat if hostile boarders or saboteurs make an appearance). So basically security department with an extra certification in EVA warfare and a higher degree of emphasis on full contact fatal hand-to-hand as opposed to my regular security, who as futuristic MPs are more likely to need non-fatal skills to break up the occasional shipboard scuffle. I'd also be looking at conditioning and integration issues so my marines don't view the rest of the crew as soft so much as "the exact people we're here to protect from any and all threats". Esprit de corps is great and necessary for people you want to leap headlong into the crapper when shooting starts, but being isolated from the rest of the crew is right out on my boat. They take mess with the rest and get to do the shift-shuffle until they know every other crewman on sight.
Whether were talking 10 or 75 out of an overall security department 3-4 times that number is a question for the size of the ship and its mission profile. They probably have their own lead officer, but that person would report to my security chief rather than directly to the captain in most ordinary circumstances.
Yeah, and MACO is none of the above. Also, from what I know of real-world spec ops guys, "spec ops guy" is basically a second job. They all have other skills. They pretty much all have weapons skills, but some are better with some things than others, for example: not everyone really knows demo. Everyone knows how to handle explosives, but careful demo work requires more skill and practice than is the norm. Not everyone is a master driver.... and so on and so forth.
No. "Spec Ops Guy" is NOT a second job. Not at all. It is their PRIMARY job. What they specialize in. nearly everthing else that they know/do is secondary to their primary function.
Example: I was a Fast Attack Submarine sonarman; my primary job. What I specialized in.
I was (as ALL Submariners are trained) also a Damage Control & Shipboard Security expert, cross-trained to do other Submariner's jobs (if they died or became incapacitated) AND as Sonar Division is part of Weapons Department, I was also trained to be "sub-specialized" (i.e. nearly as specialized) to do a Fire Controlman's and a Torpedoman's primary jobs; as they are both trained to do one another's and a Sonarman's job, as an "almost" specialist.
So, no "spec ops guy" is most certainly NOT a secondary job.
No. Starfleet is an organization based on exploration and peace, There would be no "marines" or otherwise dedicated military combatants with the exception of shipboard security. Use ENT as an example all you like, MACOs are earth military, and those were the days before the Federation existed. No single television show or movie has ever, repeat EVER, shown a dedicated military combat force serving on board a Federation vessel.
Where were the marines when Voyager got sucked into the Delta quadrant? Where was SEAL team 6 when the BORG boarded the Enterprise D? I hate to break it to you, they didn't exist.
Starfleet holds to it's ideals on being peaceful, and as such does not carry a contingent of warriors on board, sorry to break it to you.
But what about those forces Sisko found on DS9, you know the mission Nog lost his legs? Those are what we called GROUND FORCES, MILITARY FORCES.
Again, I don't agree that the AR-558 personel were Marines. They had no special equipment, no special clothing (heck, they were wearing vests!), had Starfleet ranks and both Dr Bashir and Lieutenant Larkin explicitly stated that their health had sufferred as a result of the situation they were in. And they were NEVER referred to as 'Marines'.
Here's the problem. Most base the term Marine off of the US Marines. I'm going to let you in on a little secret since I AM a US Marine. Know the only real difference between a US Soldier and a US Marine. A uniform and esprit de corps. THAT'S IT.
My drill instructor even told me this once ad it's true. Only reason the US Marine Corps exists as a separate branch, is because the US people want it so. The US Army is capable of doing our job. Infact a few times the Corps almost got absorbed by the Army. Hell Like I stated only difference between a French soldier and a French marine, is the fact a marine is stationed on a ship and part of a specific unit that is designated to be marines. Other than that, same uniform, rank structure, answer to the same chains of command.
Marine when boiled down is a FUNCTION. Fighting from a ship to some other place. That's it. So those soldiers on the grounds, were indeed serving the functions as marines.
Hell the Army divisions assaulting Omaha and Utah beach, serving in the Marine function.
First, @talonxv, Thank-you for your service. I am also a veteran; I was a Fast Attack Submarine sonarman.
From time to time we had US Navy SEALS, SEAL Team 6, Marine Force Recon, and even MARSOC unit members on board to take them to their respective missions, helped and conducted training exercises for/with them. Sometimes we even had members from two or more of these groups at the same time.
This is what I disagree with you about:
"Here's the problem. Most base the term Marine off of the US Marines. I'm going to let you in on a little secret since I AM a US Marine. Know the only real difference between a US Soldier and a US Marine. A uniform and esprit de corps. THAT'S IT."
That's SPECFOR, that's a whole different ball game. I'm talking the basic rifleman marine vs basic rifleman soldier. Only difference, Uniform and esprit de corps. I mean literally that's the only difference. Hell even in the Birthday message read every year from John A Lejeune called marines "soldiers of the sea".
Specfor, that's a different story. Delta does a different job than SEALS, though SEALS can do some of the jobs DELTA does, and MARSOC, different beast.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
That's basically what I was saying... Your actual job was "Damage Control & Shipboard Security".
No, No, No. LoL
My ACTUAL job was SONAR, Sound Navigation And Ranging & operation/maintenance/repair of SONAR equipment.
Damage Control & Shipboard Security, cross-trained jobs, collateral duties (Divisional/Departmental 3-M, scheduled training sessions, etc.), and Ship-wide tasks are ALL secondary jobs.
The same logic applies to Special Operations Groups and other Unit Commands; Everyone has their Primary responsibility (their job) & everything else that they do is secondary (supplemental, supporting the rest of the Unit Command and/or even other Unit Commands).
SEAL teams do their OWN jobs, Submarines can & do HELP them do their jobs, but Submariners do NOT actually do the SEAL team's job "with" them.
We helped them train, provided transport (via submarine) to where they needed to go to do their ops & maybe picked them up to take them back home (if not us, someone else made sure they got back home). But their "Spec Op" jobs are THEIR responsibility; what THEY were trained for. Not anyone else's.
Yeah, you didn't have that job at all, primary or secondary. It's quite true that SEALS are specially trained to be SEALs. But all SEALs are something else too.
My FED Tac runs a Defiant class, and she has a small specialised squad of highly trained combat soldiers for th eextremely hazardous missions, wear full body armour, assault rifles, the works. They are called the Tactical Response Team (or TRT for short) but in my mind, that's more an individual ship thing that was set up (technically my first Captain made the team for the Sovereign class, but when I created a nwe character to play a different career, I promoted his first officer to full captain status, made her the character and carried the idea over to her).
My Gorn has a squad of Gorn known as the Assault Squad. Again, heavy armour, heavy weapons. But they've become the standard away team.
My Romulans and my other feds don't have any specialised teams, just standard security.
*******************************************
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
This is complete ****. Starfleet is a MILITARY ORGANIZATION. PERIOD. END OF STORY. ALL STOP. If so why did Kirk get court marshaled not once but twice? But guess what buttercup? Military organizations also do what's called HAO. Humanitarian Assistance Operations. Never really hear about them, but Military forces will pull into like a place like Kenya. We'll go ashore, help fix buildings, give free healthcare, free meals etc. Kind of stuff you never hear about, but we do all the time.
So honestly, yes Military type forces do exist, they don't always go out on every ship. Voyager was going out on what a 2 week mission and ship board security is usually good enough to get the job done.
But what about those forces Sisko found on DS9, you know the mission Nog lost his legs? Those are what we called GROUND FORCES, MILITARY FORCES.
Sorry kiddo, Federation does have them.
Because Court Martial is a common term used in other organisations. Informally it is used in the police service for instance. It's not a stretch to it becoming an official term.
Who says militaries don't have humanitarian goals? You just seem to be assuming Starfleet is a military that does humanitarian work rather than a humanitarian organisation that occasionally has to defend.
Those guys at AR-whatsit, SECURITY or TACTICAL DIVISION (see I can all caps too). Excursion jackets are not a new thing in Star Trek, wearing this no more makes a tactical officer a marine than wearing this makes Ezri aa Desert Fox.
That was almost as bad as the post that claimed only militaries have military rank. Made by somebody (judging from their spelling) was American. A country with explicitly military ranked Police.
It's funny how people are so quick to take Kirk's musings on him feeling like a soldier as 'proof' of Starfleet being a military, but ignore Picard's explicit statements to the contrary.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
This is complete ****. Starfleet is a MILITARY ORGANIZATION. PERIOD. END OF STORY. ALL STOP. If so why did Kirk get court marshaled not once but twice? But guess what buttercup? Military organizations also do what's called HAO. Humanitarian Assistance Operations. Never really hear about them, but Military forces will pull into like a place like Kenya. We'll go ashore, help fix buildings, give free healthcare, free meals etc. Kind of stuff you never hear about, but we do all the time.
So honestly, yes Military type forces do exist, they don't always go out on every ship. Voyager was going out on what a 2 week mission and ship board security is usually good enough to get the job done.
But what about those forces Sisko found on DS9, you know the mission Nog lost his legs? Those are what we called GROUND FORCES, MILITARY FORCES.
Sorry kiddo, Federation does have them.
Because Court Martial is a common term used in other organisations. Informally it is used in the police service for instance. It's not a stretch to it becoming an official term.
Who says militaries don't have humanitarian goals? You just seem to be assuming Starfleet is a military that does humanitarian work rather than a humanitarian organisation that occasionally has to defend.
Those guys at AR-whatsit, SECURITY or TACTICAL DIVISION (see I can all caps too). Excursion jackets are not a new thing in Star Trek, wearing this no more makes a tactical officer a marine than wearing this makes Ezri aa Desert Fox.
That was almost as bad as the post that claimed only militaries have military rank. Made by somebody (judging from their spelling) was American. A country with explicitly military ranked Police.
It's funny how people are so quick to take Kirk's musings on him feeling like a soldier as 'proof' of Starfleet being a military, but ignore Picard's explicit statements to the contrary.
People tend to identify with the version of Star Trek they like. I identify with the Nicholas Meyer version which was more militaristic than TNG.
I've never heard of a police court martial but in the US court martials are strictly military
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Didn't David explicitly refer to Starfleet as "the military" in TWoK?
DAVID
I've tried to warn you. Scientists
are always pawns of the military
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Didn't David explicitly refer to Starfleet as "the military" in TWoK?
A guy not in Starfleet, with daddy issues, and a chip on his shoulder from them constantly shutting down his research?
He's hardly the captain of the Flagship of Starfleet is he.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
When the U.S. military isn't busy blowing other people up, we send humanitarian aid where it's needed anywhere around the world.
We sent the Carl Vinson and a whole bunch of other ships to Haiti after the 2010 Earthquake as part of Operation Unified Response.
We sent the Ronald Reagan carrier group to Japan after the 2011 Earthquake/Tsunami as part of Operation Tomodachi.
We're also known for allowing other countries to use our ships, particularly our aircraft carriers for flight exercises by countries who don't have aircraft carriers of their own.
We were also willing to let the UK borrow the Iwo Jima if they ever had an aircraft carrier loss during the Falklands War. This never happened, of course. But it really underlines that all of our armed services are ready to deploy against any humanitarian crisis, a lot like Starfleet. We like to stay friendly with most countries, even countries that tend to hate or despise us.
Didn't David explicitly refer to Starfleet as "the military" in TWoK?
A guy not in Starfleet, with daddy issues, and a chip on his shoulder from them constantly shutting down his research?
He's hardly the captain of the Flagship of Starfleet is he.
So only people in Starfleet can determine if Starfleet is a military or not?
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
The only thing that truly sets the military and other organizations apart is that they go to war. Police don't go to war. Coast Guard don't go to war.
If in TOS the Klingons declared war and launched an invasion of Federation space...who would respond?
If in TNG the Romulans declared war and launched an invasions of Federation space...who would respond?
if in DS9 the founders declared....see the final seasons of DS9
Sorry but for all the high sounding words they use...if they are the fighting force of the Federation...they are a military.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Starfleet is a paramilitary service unifying lots of different singular services in a way we don't have a real world organization that comes close. It's Star Trek, it's the future and it is very much canonical that they're not and not meant to be a military but "something else", no matter what current and ex-servicemen and women in the fandom think their experience tells them about Star Trek.
But I don't even know why this comes up again and again. It's always the same discussion. The literal same discussion with the sxact same words used by both sides and it got really boring. Just watch the shows, it is literally spelled out in this very words "Starfleet is not a military organization". That means that whatever you think from your real world experience in the military applies to Starfleet, it doesn't in the way you know it. That's how the poeple creating the stories and continuity want it. And more importantly, none of this changes anything. It's irrelevant. What happens in canon doesn't change.
For me the main difference is just flavour, basically. Sci-fi is drenched, almost infested with obsessive military terminology and stories and characters it is simply stale. Star Trek, despite HAVING action and HAVING space wars and pews tried to do something different but that difference faded away more and more over time, which is a shame really, if only for the sake of diversity.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
They're a military. Words mean nothing. Actions are everything. If they act like a military....
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
The literal same discussion with the sxact same words used by both sides and it got really boring. Just watch the shows, it is literally spelled out in this very words "Starfleet is not a military organization".
It is HI-TRIBBLE-larious that an avowed student of canon would say that like it is something not contradicted repeatedly in setting, on screen, starting with a rank structure no non-military organization would ever bother with and moving on steadily from there.
There are plenty of groovy, hippy "I wish we were explorers and nothing but" characters in the spotlight, but every time the camera pulls back a little, it's plainly evident that the rest of star fleet doesn't share that outlook.
For me the problem is 95% of the American public along with an equal or higher percentage of Star Trek writers don't know a goddamn thing about how their own military actually functions and just spew random tropes at the page. So we get these weird, dogmatic caricatures of a pseudo-military with a few buzz words thrown at it.
Starfleet is a paramilitary service unifying lots of different singular services in a way we don't have a real world organization that comes close. It's Star Trek, it's the future and it is very much canonical that they're not and not meant to be a military but "something else", no matter what current and ex-servicemen and women in the fandom think their experience tells them about Star Trek.
But I don't even know why this comes up again and again. It's always the same discussion. The literal same discussion with the sxact same words used by both sides and it got really boring. Just watch the shows, it is literally spelled out in this very words "Starfleet is not a military organization". That means that whatever you think from your real world experience in the military applies to Starfleet, it doesn't in the way you know it. That's how the poeple creating the stories and continuity want it. And more importantly, none of this changes anything. It's irrelevant. What happens in canon doesn't change.
For me the main difference is just flavour, basically. Sci-fi is drenched, almost infested with obsessive military terminology and stories and characters it is simply stale. Star Trek, despite HAVING action and HAVING space wars and pews tried to do something different but that difference faded away more and more over time, which is a shame really, if only for the sake of diversity.
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
Starfleet is military. In the academy there are cadets. When they start serving on a ship they have ranks (ensign, lieutenant, lt cmdr, cpt, etc). Then there are admirals who refer to civil politician like in a real army since the roman times. Then there are civil corps like in any army.
It's not paramilitary, Starfleet is a full blown army.
Didn't David explicitly refer to Starfleet as "the military" in TWoK?
A guy not in Starfleet, with daddy issues, and a chip on his shoulder from them constantly shutting down his research?
He's hardly the captain of the Flagship of Starfleet is he.
So only people in Starfleet can determine if Starfleet is a military or not?
No. Only the opinions of people in Starfleet count. Kirk feels like a soldier, Picard says he's a diplomat and that Starfleet isn't a military. O'Brien is an engineer not a soldier, he left the army to join Starfleet.
Because Court Martial is a common term used in other organizations.
Really? Can you name three that aren't military? Because I can't. Probably because the words themselves tell you its a "martial" court.
Considering it's an informal term not a formal one it doesn't matter. But yes I can. There was disciplinary hearing for two firefighters and one police officer here in Yorkshire, referred to in the papers as a court martial. So that's two.
The only thing that truly sets the military and other organizations apart is that they go to war. Police don't go to war. Coast Guard don't go to war.
If in TOS the Klingons declared war and launched an invasion of Federation space...who would respond?
If in TNG the Romulans declared war and launched an invasions of Federation space...who would respond?
if in DS9 the founders declared....see the final seasons of DS9
Sorry but for all the high sounding words they use...if they are the fighting force of the Federation...they are a military.
Starfleet would respond obviously. They have ships with guns, why wouldn't they respond? Some countries have home guards and a provision for Police to become militias in the case on an invasion, it doesn't make them militaries.
The Federation has a research and colonisation fleet with big guns that would likely be required by Federation law to form a militia if invaded.
The literal same discussion with the sxact same words used by both sides and it got really boring. Just watch the shows, it is literally spelled out in this very words "Starfleet is not a military organization".
It is HI-****-larious that an avowed student of canon would say that like it is something not contradicted repeatedly in setting, on screen, starting with a rank structure no non-military organization would ever bother with and moving on steadily from there.
There are plenty of groovy, hippy "I wish we were explorers and nothing but" characters in the spotlight, but every time the camera pulls back a little, it's plainly evident that the rest of star fleet doesn't share that outlook.
For me the problem is 95% of the American public along with an equal or higher percentage of Star Trek writers don't know a goddamn thing about how their own military actually functions and just spew random tropes at the page. So we get these weird, dogmatic caricatures of a pseudo-military with a few buzz words thrown at it.
I'm not sure if you're blind or not. But you have seen the American Police right? Hell, they even have guns.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
"Fire phasers at that asteroid!"
"Offensive Operations says they need an approved purchase order for the expenditure of the sarium-krellide to shoot at the asteroid. Also they want to know how much phaser to use and suggest we engage Offensive Capacity Planning to put together the order."
"Tell Offensive Operations to put it in as a trust case or that they're violating the Offensive Service Level Agreement, which stipulates we have 1 Terajoule per day of freely dispositionable phaser provisioning."
"They want a ticket tracking number."
"Open a ticket then. Make it P1, urgent. They have an SLA of 20 minutes then."
"Uh, sir, the asteroid hit the planet."
"Well, TRIBBLE."
"Offensive Operations says the phaser provisioning is ready, but the target is no longer in scope. Do we want to phaser the planet anyway?"
It's not just an army though it handles other duties too. I think that's the distinction. but really this is just sci fi and it is whatever the writers insist it is
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
"Fire phasers at that asteroid!"
"Offensive Operations says they need an approved purchase order for the expenditure of the sarium-krellide to shoot at the asteroid. Also they want to know how much phaser to use and suggest we engage Offensive Capacity Planning to put together the order."
"Tell Offensive Operations to put it in as a trust case or that they're violating the Offensive Service Level Agreement, which stipulates we have 1 Terajoule per day of freely dispositionable phaser provisioning."
"They want a ticket tracking number."
"Open a ticket then. Make it P1, urgent. They have an SLA of 20 minutes then."
"Uh, sir, the asteroid hit the planet."
"Well, ****."
"Offensive Operations says the phaser provisioning is ready, but the target is no longer in scope. Do we want to phaser the planet anyway?"
Yeah, discipline and chain of command are concepts completely and utterly alien to any organisation that is not a military.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Comments
It's probably a form of body armour/combat gear, which I even pointed out in the very first post I made regarding them. But that still doesn't mean that it's a special branch, just attire for a purpose. Starfleet issues training gear, desert gear, combat gear, maintenance jumpers, ev-suits, you name it - the right clothes for the right job.
The officers we see in the episode in question aren't identified as being anything but regular officers though. They use the same department colours, rank structure and, aside from the protective clothes, same weaponry as Sisko's party. To me there's literally nothing setting them apart.
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There's probably a squad of MACO and Omega soldiers on the larger ships once they're a part of each group fighting the big end-game enemies too.
I imagine there's more than a few butting heads over who's more important, Hazard Team, MACO, Omega, those two Starfleet Intel spies that nobody on board trusts, that sort of thing.
LOVE IT!
We come in peace, SHOOT TO KILL!
First, @talonxv, Thank-you for your service. I am also a veteran; I was a Fast Attack Submarine sonarman.
From time to time we had US Navy SEALS, SEAL Team 6, Marine Force Recon, and even MARSOC unit members on board to take them to their respective missions, helped and conducted training exercises for/with them. Sometimes we even had members from two or more of these groups at the same time.
This is what I disagree with you about:
"Here's the problem. Most base the term Marine off of the US Marines. I'm going to let you in on a little secret since I AM a US Marine. Know the only real difference between a US Soldier and a US Marine. A uniform and esprit de corps. THAT'S IT."
And here's why:
Here are the differences between all the US military's elite special-ops units
My character Tsin'xing
Whether were talking 10 or 75 out of an overall security department 3-4 times that number is a question for the size of the ship and its mission profile. They probably have their own lead officer, but that person would report to my security chief rather than directly to the captain in most ordinary circumstances.
No. "Spec Ops Guy" is NOT a second job. Not at all. It is their PRIMARY job. What they specialize in. nearly everthing else that they know/do is secondary to their primary function.
Example: I was a Fast Attack Submarine sonarman; my primary job. What I specialized in.
I was (as ALL Submariners are trained) also a Damage Control & Shipboard Security expert, cross-trained to do other Submariner's jobs (if they died or became incapacitated) AND as Sonar Division is part of Weapons Department, I was also trained to be "sub-specialized" (i.e. nearly as specialized) to do a Fire Controlman's and a Torpedoman's primary jobs; as they are both trained to do one another's and a Sonarman's job, as an "almost" specialist.
So, no "spec ops guy" is most certainly NOT a secondary job.
My character Tsin'xing
That's SPECFOR, that's a whole different ball game. I'm talking the basic rifleman marine vs basic rifleman soldier. Only difference, Uniform and esprit de corps. I mean literally that's the only difference. Hell even in the Birthday message read every year from John A Lejeune called marines "soldiers of the sea".
Specfor, that's a different story. Delta does a different job than SEALS, though SEALS can do some of the jobs DELTA does, and MARSOC, different beast.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
No, No, No. LoL
My ACTUAL job was SONAR, Sound Navigation And Ranging & operation/maintenance/repair of SONAR equipment.
Damage Control & Shipboard Security, cross-trained jobs, collateral duties (Divisional/Departmental 3-M, scheduled training sessions, etc.), and Ship-wide tasks are ALL secondary jobs.
The same logic applies to Special Operations Groups and other Unit Commands; Everyone has their Primary responsibility (their job) & everything else that they do is secondary (supplemental, supporting the rest of the Unit Command and/or even other Unit Commands).
SEAL teams do their OWN jobs, Submarines can & do HELP them do their jobs, but Submariners do NOT actually do the SEAL team's job "with" them.
We helped them train, provided transport (via submarine) to where they needed to go to do their ops & maybe picked them up to take them back home (if not us, someone else made sure they got back home). But their "Spec Op" jobs are THEIR responsibility; what THEY were trained for. Not anyone else's.
My character Tsin'xing
My Gorn has a squad of Gorn known as the Assault Squad. Again, heavy armour, heavy weapons. But they've become the standard away team.
My Romulans and my other feds don't have any specialised teams, just standard security.
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
Because Court Martial is a common term used in other organisations. Informally it is used in the police service for instance. It's not a stretch to it becoming an official term.
Who says militaries don't have humanitarian goals? You just seem to be assuming Starfleet is a military that does humanitarian work rather than a humanitarian organisation that occasionally has to defend.
Those guys at AR-whatsit, SECURITY or TACTICAL DIVISION (see I can all caps too). Excursion jackets are not a new thing in Star Trek, wearing this no more makes a tactical officer a marine than wearing this makes Ezri aa Desert Fox.
That was almost as bad as the post that claimed only militaries have military rank. Made by somebody (judging from their spelling) was American. A country with explicitly military ranked Police.
It's funny how people are so quick to take Kirk's musings on him feeling like a soldier as 'proof' of Starfleet being a military, but ignore Picard's explicit statements to the contrary.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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People tend to identify with the version of Star Trek they like. I identify with the Nicholas Meyer version which was more militaristic than TNG.
I've never heard of a police court martial but in the US court martials are strictly military
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
DAVID
I've tried to warn you. Scientists
are always pawns of the military
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
A guy not in Starfleet, with daddy issues, and a chip on his shoulder from them constantly shutting down his research?
He's hardly the captain of the Flagship of Starfleet is he.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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We sent the Carl Vinson and a whole bunch of other ships to Haiti after the 2010 Earthquake as part of Operation Unified Response.
We sent the Ronald Reagan carrier group to Japan after the 2011 Earthquake/Tsunami as part of Operation Tomodachi.
We're also known for allowing other countries to use our ships, particularly our aircraft carriers for flight exercises by countries who don't have aircraft carriers of their own.
We were also willing to let the UK borrow the Iwo Jima if they ever had an aircraft carrier loss during the Falklands War. This never happened, of course. But it really underlines that all of our armed services are ready to deploy against any humanitarian crisis, a lot like Starfleet. We like to stay friendly with most countries, even countries that tend to hate or despise us.
So only people in Starfleet can determine if Starfleet is a military or not?
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Really? Can you name three that aren't military? Because I can't. Probably because the words themselves tell you its a "martial" court.
If in TOS the Klingons declared war and launched an invasion of Federation space...who would respond?
If in TNG the Romulans declared war and launched an invasions of Federation space...who would respond?
if in DS9 the founders declared....see the final seasons of DS9
Sorry but for all the high sounding words they use...if they are the fighting force of the Federation...they are a military.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
But I don't even know why this comes up again and again. It's always the same discussion. The literal same discussion with the sxact same words used by both sides and it got really boring. Just watch the shows, it is literally spelled out in this very words "Starfleet is not a military organization". That means that whatever you think from your real world experience in the military applies to Starfleet, it doesn't in the way you know it. That's how the poeple creating the stories and continuity want it. And more importantly, none of this changes anything. It's irrelevant. What happens in canon doesn't change.
For me the main difference is just flavour, basically. Sci-fi is drenched, almost infested with obsessive military terminology and stories and characters it is simply stale. Star Trek, despite HAVING action and HAVING space wars and pews tried to do something different but that difference faded away more and more over time, which is a shame really, if only for the sake of diversity.
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Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
It is HI-TRIBBLE-larious that an avowed student of canon would say that like it is something not contradicted repeatedly in setting, on screen, starting with a rank structure no non-military organization would ever bother with and moving on steadily from there.
There are plenty of groovy, hippy "I wish we were explorers and nothing but" characters in the spotlight, but every time the camera pulls back a little, it's plainly evident that the rest of star fleet doesn't share that outlook.
For me the problem is 95% of the American public along with an equal or higher percentage of Star Trek writers don't know a goddamn thing about how their own military actually functions and just spew random tropes at the page. So we get these weird, dogmatic caricatures of a pseudo-military with a few buzz words thrown at it.
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
Starfleet is military. In the academy there are cadets. When they start serving on a ship they have ranks (ensign, lieutenant, lt cmdr, cpt, etc). Then there are admirals who refer to civil politician like in a real army since the roman times. Then there are civil corps like in any army.
It's not paramilitary, Starfleet is a full blown army.
No. Only the opinions of people in Starfleet count. Kirk feels like a soldier, Picard says he's a diplomat and that Starfleet isn't a military. O'Brien is an engineer not a soldier, he left the army to join Starfleet.
Considering it's an informal term not a formal one it doesn't matter. But yes I can. There was disciplinary hearing for two firefighters and one police officer here in Yorkshire, referred to in the papers as a court martial. So that's two.
Starfleet would respond obviously. They have ships with guns, why wouldn't they respond? Some countries have home guards and a provision for Police to become militias in the case on an invasion, it doesn't make them militaries.
The Federation has a research and colonisation fleet with big guns that would likely be required by Federation law to form a militia if invaded.
I'm not sure if you're blind or not. But you have seen the American Police right? Hell, they even have guns.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
"Fire phasers at that asteroid!"
"Offensive Operations says they need an approved purchase order for the expenditure of the sarium-krellide to shoot at the asteroid. Also they want to know how much phaser to use and suggest we engage Offensive Capacity Planning to put together the order."
"Tell Offensive Operations to put it in as a trust case or that they're violating the Offensive Service Level Agreement, which stipulates we have 1 Terajoule per day of freely dispositionable phaser provisioning."
"They want a ticket tracking number."
"Open a ticket then. Make it P1, urgent. They have an SLA of 20 minutes then."
"Uh, sir, the asteroid hit the planet."
"Well, TRIBBLE."
"Offensive Operations says the phaser provisioning is ready, but the target is no longer in scope. Do we want to phaser the planet anyway?"
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Yeah, discipline and chain of command are concepts completely and utterly alien to any organisation that is not a military.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!