It sure is. And this is something that should have been explored. The show runners were not good enough to recognize the sort of character they had accidentally created and use it to full effect.
But to call her a psychopath on par with Ransom is incorrect. That is not the character that was created.
First paragraph: Agreed, completely.
Second: I disagree. Ransom and Janeway are in the same situation. What Janeway did in Scoprion is arguably worse than what Ransom did. Why do you consider Ransom to be more insane/evil than Janeway?
Second: I disagree. Ransom and Janeway are in the same situation. What Janeway did in Scoprion is arguably worse than what Ransom did. Why do you consider Ransom to be more insane/evil than Janeway?
Arguably, Ransom was in a worse situation than Janeway... I love the Nova Class (hense the avatar) but in the episodes, the Equinox was trashed beyond what the Enterprise endured in Wok and SfS, half th crew was dead, and they had been operating way longer than the Starfleet regulation for frontline action as mentioned in the DS-9 episode... He truly had extenuating circumstances for falling back on some very harsh regulations. Janeway had none of that to deal with... Look how much she fell apart in Year of Hell... Ransom was never that insane...
Arguably, Ransom was in a worse situation than Janeway... I love the Nova Class (hense the avatar) but in the episodes, the Equinox was trashed beyond what the Enterprise endured in Wok and SfS, half th crew was dead, and they had been operating way longer than the Starfleet regulation for frontline action as mentioned in the DS-9 episode... He truly had extenuating circumstances for falling back on some very harsh regulations. Janeway had none of that to deal with... Look how much she fell apart in Year of Hell... Ransom was never that insane...
You have a point here--Voyager comes home triumphantly *****-and-span, whereas Equinox is trashed.
I actually like Ransom. More consistent than Janeway.
I actually like Ransom. More consistent than Janeway.
Neelix was more consistent than Janeway. (He was consistently stupid, but he was consistent.)
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
You have a point here--Voyager comes home triumphantly *****-and-span, whereas Equinox is trashed.
I actually like Ransom. More consistent than Janeway.
(then again, Ransom only got 1 episode)
Yup, the Equinox was totally out of it's depth, yet was still (just about) flying, but the conditions on board would have been hell, and would've had Janeway crying in her coffee or slashing her wrists with Tuvok's cut-throat razor (a truly beautiful personal grooming device)...
And yeah, I really liked Ransom as well. It was clear that he did not enjoy anything that he had to do, but did it all for his crew...
Yup, the Equinox was totally out of it's depth, yet was still (just about) flying, but the conditions on board would have been hell, and would've had Janeway crying in her coffee or slashing her wrists with Tuvok's cut-throat razor (a truly beautiful personal grooming device)...
And yeah, I really liked Ransom as well. It was clear that he did not enjoy anything that he had to do, but did it all for his crew...
Three is honestly a lot like Ransom. Just human enough, psychologically, to hate herself, but driven by an overriding imperative to protect her people.
I would've preferred to watch a show about Equinox, TBH. That would've been grimdark, but interesting.
valoreah, I am no longer responding to you until you apologize for trolling. Congratulations. You have successfully raised my blood pressure by about 20 points.
Three is honestly a lot like Ransom. Just human enough, psychologically, to hate herself, but driven by an overriding imperative to protect her people.
I would've preferred to watch a show about Equinox, TBH. That would've been grimdark, but interesting.
valoreah, I am no longer responding to you until you apologize for trolling. Congratulations. You have successfully raised my blood pressure by about 20 points.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, they (the writers) should have either killed Janeway or had her removed from command, and had Ransom, as the highest ranking Starfleet officer, assume command of Voyager. Would have been a whole new dynamic to the series :cool:
Correction: It did not justify it in Janeway's personal opinion... General Order 24 allows a starship captain to eradicate all life on a planet if justified, which would count as 'genocide or mass murder', so R3 P12, would indeed allow for Captain Ransom's actions...
...in direct violation of the prime directive by interfering in other cultures, not so much.
Janeway killed trillions on her way out of the quadrant, such was her fixation to get home and in the attempt violated several regulations and the prime directive dealing with the borg in that attempt. shes the worst mass murderer in history.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, they (the writers) should have either killed Janeway or had her removed from command, and had Ransom, as the highest ranking Starfleet officer, assume command of Voyager. Would have been a whole new dynamic to the series :cool:
...damn, that's a good idea.
Ransom still did awful things, and probably would've been jailed for life when he got back (save for Plot necessity, of course). Would've been more than just the Seven Of Nine's Chest show, though.
TOS Best: McCoy Worst: Chekov (despite the great acting just a little too comical)
TNG Best: Picard Worst: Wesley
DS9 Best: Sisko and Quark, can't pick one, Worst: Rom or Jake
VOY Best: Tuvok, Worst: Neelix
ENT Best: Phlox, Worst: Merryweather
Worst Villans:
TOS: Daystrom
TOS Movies: Sybok
TNG: Duras
TNG Movies: Ru'Afo
DS9: Kai Win
VOY: Maj Cullah
ENT: The Xindi as a whole
Best Villans:
TOS: Khan
TNG: Tomalak
TNG Movies: Borg Queen
DS9: Weyoun
VOY: Borg Queen with honorable mention to Annorax
ENT: they were all really wishy washy, can't pick a single "best".
...in direct violation of the prime directive by interfering in other cultures, not so much.
Captain Ransom did not interfere with the Ankari culture though, his crew simply participated in a blessing (and Starfleet General Order thirty four specifically states that Starfleet captains will honor, respect, and display extreme tolerance for species-based customs and practices insofar as the safety of the vessel is not threatened by such practices) and then utilised that opportunity as regulations allowed...
Janeway killed trillions on her way out of the quadrant, such was her fixation to get home and in the attempt violated several regulations and the prime directive dealing with the borg in that attempt. shes the worst mass murderer in history.
So. Here's what the prosecution has concluded so far:
Janeway is a mentally-unstable megalomaniacal mass-murderer who uses a convoluted version of Starfleet regulations to get her way and commits appallingly evil acts like aiding and abetting the Borg in the attempted assimilation of a species that she literally just encountered, on the basis of a vague message received telepathically by an unreliable and emotionally unstable telepath who later tries to exterminate the entire crew of Voyager.
I would like to add that Janeway is clearly depressed and monomanically obsessed with returning her ship to the Alpha Quadrant, and is clearly infatuated with Seven of Nine but refuses to actually recognize her feelings (due to the aforementioned monomania), which likely caused emotional damage to Seven (who is equally clearly interested in Janeway). Seven later entered into an unrealistic and untenable relationship with Commander Chakotay (who did, in fact, deserve a hot date, but the fact remains that the relationship made no sense), a relationship that she was likely emotionally unready for.
Add to that that Janeway committed murder personally, as well as both negligent and active genocide, and you've got a psychotic, emotionally abusive, domineering killer who looks good because Plot.
Worst Villans:
TOS: Daystrom
TOS Movies: Sybok
TNG: Duras Aaw, c'mon, he was a fun dirtbag to see die.
TNG Movies: Ru'Afo Oh, but he could scream "NNNNOOOOO!!!!!!" really well...
DS9: Kai Win
VOY: Maj Cullah
ENT: The Xindi as a whole
I agree with most of this (snipped for space reasons). I commented on the ones I disagree with for personal reasons.
Ransom still did awful things, and probably would've been jailed for life when he got back (save for Plot necessity, of course). Would've been more than just the Seven Of Nine's Chest show, though.
The broken clock is right twice a day
True, what he did was certainly as low as a Starfleet officer could go within the regulations. I'm not sure if he would have been imprisoned, due to the circumstances, but it is certainly not a foregone conclusion he would walk free from a court-martial, and I would not deny that he might be imprisoned...
And absolutely, his treatment of Seven would certainly provide for an interesting dynamic. Knowing how she had done reprehensible things herself, would she have eventually understood Ransom's reasoning...
Second: I disagree. Ransom and Janeway are in the same situation. What Janeway did in Scoprion is arguably worse than what Ransom did. Why do you consider Ransom to be more insane/evil than Janeway?
Ransom didn't show remorse or apprehension. Janeway never intended to exterminate the Undine and only went into their space because, as I have repeatedly stated, the BORG WOULD HAVE TAKEN THE SHIP AND ASSIMILATED THE ENTIRE CREW if she didn't.
Psychopaths don't show remorse orapprehension for their actions. Janeway did.
Captain Ransom did not interfere with the Ankari culture though, his crew simply participated in a blessing (and Starfleet General Order thirty four specifically states that Starfleet captains will honor, respect, and display extreme tolerance for species-based customs and practices insofar as the safety of the vessel is not threatened by such practices) and then utilised that opportunity as regulations allowed...
tell that to ransoms crew when he fell in with the krowtonan guard, his ship violating their space, which itself if provocation enough violated the prime directive by just being there and failure to heed any further instruction.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Ransom didn't show remorse or apprehension. Janeway never intended to exterminate the Undine and only went into their space because, as I have repeatedly stated, the BORG WOULD HAVE TAKEN THE SHIP AND ASSIMILATED THE ENTIRE CREW if she didn't.
Psychopaths don't show remorse orapprehension for their actions. Janeway did.
Good point. So she's just mentally unstable, not really a psychopath.
Also...Ransom looked sick, in an emotional way, like someone who's got enough human left in them to hate themselves but does the evil stuff anyway because they feel they have to.
And Janeway did have several options that did not include colluding with the Borg, which never would've worked anyway in any reasonably well-written episode.
The central problem with Janeway is that she does unbelievably horrible things that are presented as heroic or "tough choices". When Kirk, Picard, and Sisko do morally questionable or outright evil things, they get called out on it. Janeway doesn't, because the writers were too afraid to criticize their Strong Female Hero.
Never mind that you can get a strong female hero by taking Picard, gender-swapping him, and have the "new" character played by Judi Dench.
In the Voyager situation, any decently-written character would be criticized at least once and would be found wanting at least once. Janeway was always the Perfect Strong Female Hero.
tell that to ransoms crew when he fell in with the krowtonan guard, his ship violating their space, which itself if provocation enough violated the prime directive by just being there and failure to heed any further instruction.
Good point. So she's just mentally unstable, not really a psychopath.
Also...Ransom looked sick, in an emotional way, like someone who's got enough human left in them to hate themselves but does the evil stuff anyway because they feel they have to.
And Janeway did have several options that did not include colluding with the Borg, which never would've worked anyway in any reasonably well-written episode.
ransom had one redeeming feature about him though, he went down with the ship, saved some of his crew. however i doubt janeway would let this happen to her, she would like do a voyager kamikaze before giving up, and causing yet another bad choice and more destruction.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
apparently not when he went after voyagers subspace field device and sacrificed more of those creatures, reprogramming the doctor to extract info from 7 of 9 forcefully with the intention that it would kill her. then claiming "he had no choice". if he really felt as if it was a burden, why compound one failure with another and attack another federation ship and crew for?
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Ransom didn't show remorse or apprehension. Janeway never intended to exterminate the Undine and only went into their space because, as I have repeatedly stated, the BORG WOULD HAVE TAKEN THE SHIP AND ASSIMILATED THE ENTIRE CREW if she didn't.
Psychopaths don't show remorse orapprehension for their actions. Janeway did.
I disagree... I felt that the weight of his conscience was very heavy upon him. There came a point where he could no longer continue, and his executive officer mutinied against him. He then sacrificed himself and his ship, so his crew could continue aboard Voyager... I think he was deeply remorseful of his actions. Janeway, on the other hand, did whatever she wanted in an inconsistent manner, treated her crew in an inconsistent manner, and justified it all by flimsy means which were again, inconsistent... I think Kate Mulgrew did a great job, but was being straightjacketed by poor writing and inconsistent characterisation...
Ransom didn't show remorse or apprehension. Janeway never intended to exterminate the Undine and only went into their space because, as I have repeatedly stated, the BORG WOULD HAVE TAKEN THE SHIP AND ASSIMILATED THE ENTIRE CREW if she didn't.
As she showed in the episode, she had a countermeasure for the Borg trying to assimilate the ship. And it worked. Perfectly. The Borg's threat to take the ship was empty rhetoric.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
First paragraph: Agreed, completely.
Second: I disagree. Ransom and Janeway are in the same situation. What Janeway did in Scoprion is arguably worse than what Ransom did. Why do you consider Ransom to be more insane/evil than Janeway?
Arguably, Ransom was in a worse situation than Janeway... I love the Nova Class (hense the avatar) but in the episodes, the Equinox was trashed beyond what the Enterprise endured in Wok and SfS, half th crew was dead, and they had been operating way longer than the Starfleet regulation for frontline action as mentioned in the DS-9 episode... He truly had extenuating circumstances for falling back on some very harsh regulations. Janeway had none of that to deal with... Look how much she fell apart in Year of Hell... Ransom was never that insane...
Ignoring the trolling and the accusations of sexism to get to the only actual point in the mess of your idiotic comment:
No, it's not OK. But what Janeway did is astronomically worse.
You have a point here--Voyager comes home triumphantly *****-and-span, whereas Equinox is trashed.
I actually like Ransom. More consistent than Janeway.
(then again, Ransom only got 1 episode)
Neelix was more consistent than Janeway. (He was consistently stupid, but he was consistent.)
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
...point, that.
Consistently annoying, consistently mind-numbingly stupid...
Actually, Janeway was an idiot, too, but she had moments of clarity (when the Narrative let up a little).
Yup, the Equinox was totally out of it's depth, yet was still (just about) flying, but the conditions on board would have been hell, and would've had Janeway crying in her coffee or slashing her wrists with Tuvok's cut-throat razor (a truly beautiful personal grooming device)...
And yeah, I really liked Ransom as well. It was clear that he did not enjoy anything that he had to do, but did it all for his crew...
Three is honestly a lot like Ransom. Just human enough, psychologically, to hate herself, but driven by an overriding imperative to protect her people.
I would've preferred to watch a show about Equinox, TBH. That would've been grimdark, but interesting.
valoreah, I am no longer responding to you until you apologize for trolling. Congratulations. You have successfully raised my blood pressure by about 20 points.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, they (the writers) should have either killed Janeway or had her removed from command, and had Ransom, as the highest ranking Starfleet officer, assume command of Voyager. Would have been a whole new dynamic to the series :cool:
...in direct violation of the prime directive by interfering in other cultures, not so much.
Janeway killed trillions on her way out of the quadrant, such was her fixation to get home and in the attempt violated several regulations and the prime directive dealing with the borg in that attempt. shes the worst mass murderer in history.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
...damn, that's a good idea.
Ransom still did awful things, and probably would've been jailed for life when he got back (save for Plot necessity, of course). Would've been more than just the Seven Of Nine's Chest show, though.
TOS Best: McCoy Worst: Chekov (despite the great acting just a little too comical)
TNG Best: Picard Worst: Wesley
DS9 Best: Sisko and Quark, can't pick one, Worst: Rom or Jake
VOY Best: Tuvok, Worst: Neelix
ENT Best: Phlox, Worst: Merryweather
Worst Villans:
TOS: Daystrom
TOS Movies: Sybok
TNG: Duras
TNG Movies: Ru'Afo
DS9: Kai Win
VOY: Maj Cullah
ENT: The Xindi as a whole
Best Villans:
TOS: Khan
TNG: Tomalak
TNG Movies: Borg Queen
DS9: Weyoun
VOY: Borg Queen with honorable mention to Annorax
ENT: they were all really wishy washy, can't pick a single "best".
Totally agree... :cool:
Janeway is a mentally-unstable megalomaniacal mass-murderer who uses a convoluted version of Starfleet regulations to get her way and commits appallingly evil acts like aiding and abetting the Borg in the attempted assimilation of a species that she literally just encountered, on the basis of a vague message received telepathically by an unreliable and emotionally unstable telepath who later tries to exterminate the entire crew of Voyager.
I would like to add that Janeway is clearly depressed and monomanically obsessed with returning her ship to the Alpha Quadrant, and is clearly infatuated with Seven of Nine but refuses to actually recognize her feelings (due to the aforementioned monomania), which likely caused emotional damage to Seven (who is equally clearly interested in Janeway). Seven later entered into an unrealistic and untenable relationship with Commander Chakotay (who did, in fact, deserve a hot date, but the fact remains that the relationship made no sense), a relationship that she was likely emotionally unready for.
Add to that that Janeway committed murder personally, as well as both negligent and active genocide, and you've got a psychotic, emotionally abusive, domineering killer who looks good because Plot.
Voyager's writing suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucked.
I agree with most of this (snipped for space reasons). I commented on the ones I disagree with for personal reasons.
The broken clock is right twice a day
True, what he did was certainly as low as a Starfleet officer could go within the regulations. I'm not sure if he would have been imprisoned, due to the circumstances, but it is certainly not a foregone conclusion he would walk free from a court-martial, and I would not deny that he might be imprisoned...
And absolutely, his treatment of Seven would certainly provide for an interesting dynamic. Knowing how she had done reprehensible things herself, would she have eventually understood Ransom's reasoning...
Ransom didn't show remorse or apprehension. Janeway never intended to exterminate the Undine and only went into their space because, as I have repeatedly stated, the BORG WOULD HAVE TAKEN THE SHIP AND ASSIMILATED THE ENTIRE CREW if she didn't.
Psychopaths don't show remorse orapprehension for their actions. Janeway did.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
tell that to ransoms crew when he fell in with the krowtonan guard, his ship violating their space, which itself if provocation enough violated the prime directive by just being there and failure to heed any further instruction.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Good point. So she's just mentally unstable, not really a psychopath.
Also...Ransom looked sick, in an emotional way, like someone who's got enough human left in them to hate themselves but does the evil stuff anyway because they feel they have to.
And Janeway did have several options that did not include colluding with the Borg, which never would've worked anyway in any reasonably well-written episode.
The central problem with Janeway is that she does unbelievably horrible things that are presented as heroic or "tough choices". When Kirk, Picard, and Sisko do morally questionable or outright evil things, they get called out on it. Janeway doesn't, because the writers were too afraid to criticize their Strong Female Hero.
Never mind that you can get a strong female hero by taking Picard, gender-swapping him, and have the "new" character played by Judi Dench.
In the Voyager situation, any decently-written character would be criticized at least once and would be found wanting at least once. Janeway was always the Perfect Strong Female Hero.
And as such, she is a bad, boring character.
ransom had one redeeming feature about him though, he went down with the ship, saved some of his crew. however i doubt janeway would let this happen to her, she would like do a voyager kamikaze before giving up, and causing yet another bad choice and more destruction.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
So, I'm irrational, despite the fact that I have backed up each and every one of my points when asked, unlike others who shared my opinion?
You know, that is actually the first example of trolling I have seen from you in this thread, but it IS trolling.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
apparently not when he went after voyagers subspace field device and sacrificed more of those creatures, reprogramming the doctor to extract info from 7 of 9 forcefully with the intention that it would kill her. then claiming "he had no choice". if he really felt as if it was a burden, why compound one failure with another and attack another federation ship and crew for?
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
I disagree... I felt that the weight of his conscience was very heavy upon him. There came a point where he could no longer continue, and his executive officer mutinied against him. He then sacrificed himself and his ship, so his crew could continue aboard Voyager... I think he was deeply remorseful of his actions. Janeway, on the other hand, did whatever she wanted in an inconsistent manner, treated her crew in an inconsistent manner, and justified it all by flimsy means which were again, inconsistent... I think Kate Mulgrew did a great job, but was being straightjacketed by poor writing and inconsistent characterisation...
As she showed in the episode, she had a countermeasure for the Borg trying to assimilate the ship. And it worked. Perfectly. The Borg's threat to take the ship was empty rhetoric.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/