its a JJ movie.
they'l probably end up as glam-rock disco demons.:rolleyes:
after all, he turned khan into a sparkling emo vampire with magic healing blood...
Glam Rock disco demons sounds kind of fun. Scotty will help the crew to be stayin' alive, or their street cred will be assimilated! Spock will unleash the Vulcan Hustle. We know Uhura will spruce up nice in bell bottoms and go go boots. And Carl Urban can totally deliver "Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor not a solid gold dancer!"
This thread certainly took a turn for the surreal while I was off getting dinner...
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
No, I'm saying that she has very clear first contact protocols, and that she disobeyed orders. Also, she took the side of a known, implacable enemy over that of said enemy's opponent in an ongoing conflict.
Yes it was very clear.... The Undine had told us what they wanted to do and made clear their stance regarding humanoids.... namely that they planned to eradicate them all.
Short version: Janeway saved the entire galaxy from the Undine invasion. What your explanation conveniently ignores, is that the Undine weren't planning to stop when they wiped out the Borg. They were planning to continue their genocidal reign of terror until every humanoid race in the entire galaxy was extinct.
For Janeway to NOT act to stop that would have been treason.
And the idea that we should forgive the Undine for their blatant aggression is ludicrous.
I and others already provided proof. I am now demanding that the defense, such as it is, present its case instead of hiding behind, "well, Starfleet must not have thought she did wrong", because I can point to a half-dozen instances or more that demonstrate Starfleet's military justice system is blatantly incompetent.
On the board where I learned to debate sci-fi, repeated failure to respond to repeated calls for evidence is a bannable offense. Oh, how I wish this thread was on StarDestroyer.net.
Your 'proof' was feeble rhetoric. See above for ONE example^
Kes DID attempt to contact the Undine. The Undine responded by declaring war on the entire galaxy. So no.... the idea that a peaceful resolution could have been reached by negotiation is folly.
The ends do not justify the means. If you do something horrible that saves the galaxy, you still did a horrible thing.
Sure, the galaxy lives on, but your actions are not justified. They may be pardoned by an appropriate authority, but they are not justified.
Just my personal philosophy.
Irrelevant. It's called a hard choice for a reason. you must decide which course of action is worst. Janeway decided that allowing the Undine to eradicate the sentient races in the galaxy was the worst outcome. Thus she acted to prevent it.
only works if the undine where mindless automatons.
It also works if they have a single-minded obsession with killing people.
And let's face.... as of Scorpion, that's pretty much all Janeway knew about the Undine. That they were a race that considered no life but their own as worthy of existence and had declared an intention to wipe out all of the races in the galaxy.
I mean really... What would you do when you encounter a previously unknown race that tries to kill you on sight and declares war on the galaxy when you try to talk to them? Sit down for tea perhaps?
Absolutely, and if she'd been following that logic, and not committing treason, she'd have been offering aid to 8472, not the Borg.
What she did, in practical terms, is akin to aiding the TRIBBLE against Argentina in 1944.
the Federation was At WAR with the Borg-standing orders, Picard got in to trouble for not releasing a sabotage virus, can you dig it? Janeway had ONE bad first contact with 8472, but the Federation had LOTS of bad contact (i.e. high bodycount) and repeated invasion attempts re; the Borg.
With the power balance where it was at prior to Janeway's actions, the Borg (and species 8472) would have been locked in a stalemate pretty much indefinitely-her actions exposed the Federation to the potential of renewed aggression from a revitalized Borg Collective that no longer had a major threat on it's flank.
this would be similar in practice to giving Hitler an A-Bomb to fight the Russians with.
The United States executed people for supplying atomic weapons information to the Soviet Union-a nominal ally that sacrificed a lot to end the threat of the third reich. Janeway's actions are far less ambiguous than what Julius and Ethel Rosenburg did, and her motive (to cut through Borg space unmolested on the way home) actually constitutes doing those actions for personal gain (She wanted to go home too.)
in a very real, solid sense, her time-travelling self's actions could be seen accurately as being an attempt to cover her own TRIBBLE by altering history in violation of the Temporal prime directive, in a manner that allows her some means of obtaining pardon for what amounts to aggravated high treason.
your entire post is predicated on the assumption that the Undine were willing to negotiate. As many people have pointed out several times, Janeway's attempts to do so were very violently rejected.
your entire post is predicated on the assumption that the Undine were willing to negotiate. As many people have pointed out several times, Janeway's attempts to do so were very violently rejected.
No, his post is not reliant on the willingness of the Undine to negotiate.
The best option is to run like hell and/or aid the Undine.
None of this changes the fact that the entire episode royally sucked.
So check this out. There's this game right. It's called Star Trek Online. And in it, the Undine infiltrate and invade the Federation. Which sends them into all out war.
IN which case, her best (meaning Legally and morally justifiable) action would have been...
Do Nothing. Put everyone in cold-sleep and sneak around the fringe. It adds years to the trip, but doesn't endanger the Federation.
What she did, was increase the danger to the Federation and weaken any hypothetical future defense OF the Federation, by aiding a known enemy of the Federation that has already struck AT the Federation to the tune of millions of lives-against a relatively unknown race whose native environment is completely alien and isolated from normal space.
IOW she aided a known hostile enemy, an enemy that is openly keen to destroy or assimilate all humanoid life-forms, against an unknown entity that was only present because the Borg attacked them, and wasn't interested in contact.
So check this out. There's this game right. It's called Star Trek Online. And in it, the Undine infiltrate and invade the Federation because the Iconians tricked them into thinking that the Federation violated their promises to stay out of Undine territory. Which sends them into all out war.
IN which case, her best (meaning Legally and morally justifiable) action would have been...
Do Nothing. Put everyone in cold-sleep and sneak around the fringe. It adds years to the trip, but doesn't endanger the Federation.
What she did, was increase the danger to the Federation and weaken any hypothetical future defense OF the Federation, by aiding a known enemy of the Federation that has already struck AT the Federation to the tune of millions of lives-against a relatively unknown race whose native environment is completely alien and isolated from normal space.
IOW she aided a known hostile enemy, an enemy that is openly keen to destroy or assimilate all humanoid life-forms, against an unknown entity that was only present because the Borg attacked them, and wasn't interested in contact.
huh.
it's still treason.
Uh, no. Why? Because.... regardless of why the Undine attacked the Borg, they had no intention of stopping their genocidal extermination of humanoids after the destruction of the Borg. They made it quite clear that they planned to wipe out the Federation eventually.
IF Janeway had tried your plan the Federation would have had no defense against the Undine when they eventually found Earth. Worse... it would have almost certainly failed.
Uh, no. Why? Because.... regardless of why the Undine attacked the Borg, they had no intention of stopping their genocidal extermination of humanoids after the destruction of the Borg. They made it quite clear that they planned to wipe out the Federation eventually.
IF Janeway had tried your plan the Federation would have had no defense against the Undine when they eventually found Earth. Worse... it would have almost certainly failed.
Easy solution? Run like hell, call the Federation to warn them, and then try to get back.
Hope that the Borg and the Undine beat each other up. Pass along all the data you can next time you contact the Federation, and hope like hell that they can get some weapons tech to fight whoever wins the war.
So check this out. There's this game right. It's called Star Trek Online. And in it, the Undine infiltrate and invade the Federation, because they're too dumb to know the difference between humans and Iconians. Which sends them into all out war.
Easy solution? Run like hell, call the Federation to warn them, and then try to get back.
Hope that the Borg and the Undine beat each other up. Pass along all the data you can next time you contact the Federation, and hope like hell that they can get some weapons tech to fight whoever wins the war.
Which is made of fail. Why? Voyager isn't fast enough. The basic premise of the show is that Janeway CAN'T run to the Federation for help.... ever.
And as we saw in Scorpion, the Undine were winning. Expecting the winner to be "softened up" is at best optimistic. Your approach would have almost certainly doomed Voyager and the Federation to eradication by the Undine.
Also.... Janeway didn't have enough data to formulate an effective defense against undine attacks. she didn't get the data needed until AFTER the alliance with the Borg.
Which is made of fail. Why? Voyager isn't fast enough. The basic premise of the show is that Janeway CAN'T run to the Federation for help.... ever.
And as we saw in Scorpion, the Undine were winning. Expecting the winner to be "softened up" is at best optimistic. Your approach would have almost certainly doomed Voyager and the Federation to eradication by the Undine.
Also.... Janeway didn't have enough data to formulate an effective defense against undine attacks. she didn't get the data needed until AFTER the alliance with the Borg.
Voyager is one ship, and a small ship. The idea is to get past Borg battle lines as quickly as possible.
Warning the Federation about these superpowered new guys and telling them to work out some new pewpew guns is the best move. Allying with the Borg is morally unforgivable and just plain stupid.
Allying with the Undine and showing them that not all humanoids are Borg is another good move. Show them that there are people out there who will NOT attack the Undine unprovoked, and get them to differentiate Borg from non-Borg, and you've got an awesomely powerful ally.
The central point is that Scorpion was a terrible episode with awful writing, and that Janeway's actions in it are morally suspect at BEST.
Remember that the Undine come from what is effectively a different dimension, are mostly unfamiliar with non-organic technology, and have a completely alien biology.
To them, all humanoids and all "regular" technology SHOULD look the same, and I'd be surprised if that was not the case.
And how would the Federation get these new weapons to Voyager in time?
Not the point. In any reasonably well-written episode, Voyager would've been toast. It's only through Plot Armor and illogical Undine-go-pow torps that they survived at all.
Contacting the Federation (which IIRC was impossible at the time) to make some kind of magical pew pew gun isn't what I'd call logical or reasonable. It would in no way be what I'd consider well written either and wouldn't make for a compelling, dramatic television program.
Well, Scorpion was not well-written, dramatic, or even compelling. I've only watched it once, and I had to stop and drink two bottles of eggnog while doing so to simulate intoxication.
Comments
The Borg will likely be the villains in the next Trek movie. So we'll see them spruced up and made scary again.
Glam Rock disco demons sounds kind of fun. Scotty will help the crew to be stayin' alive, or their street cred will be assimilated! Spock will unleash the Vulcan Hustle. We know Uhura will spruce up nice in bell bottoms and go go boots. And Carl Urban can totally deliver "Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor not a solid gold dancer!"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Short version: Janeway saved the entire galaxy from the Undine invasion. What your explanation conveniently ignores, is that the Undine weren't planning to stop when they wiped out the Borg. They were planning to continue their genocidal reign of terror until every humanoid race in the entire galaxy was extinct.
For Janeway to NOT act to stop that would have been treason.
And the idea that we should forgive the Undine for their blatant aggression is ludicrous. Your 'proof' was feeble rhetoric. See above for ONE example^
Kes DID attempt to contact the Undine. The Undine responded by declaring war on the entire galaxy. So no.... the idea that a peaceful resolution could have been reached by negotiation is folly. Irrelevant. It's called a hard choice for a reason. you must decide which course of action is worst. Janeway decided that allowing the Undine to eradicate the sentient races in the galaxy was the worst outcome. Thus she acted to prevent it.
My character Tsin'xing
Oh, Q, please no.
And let's face.... as of Scorpion, that's pretty much all Janeway knew about the Undine. That they were a race that considered no life but their own as worthy of existence and had declared an intention to wipe out all of the races in the galaxy.
I mean really... What would you do when you encounter a previously unknown race that tries to kill you on sight and declares war on the galaxy when you try to talk to them? Sit down for tea perhaps?
My character Tsin'xing
My character Tsin'xing
No, his post is not reliant on the willingness of the Undine to negotiate.
The best option is to run like hell and/or aid the Undine.
None of this changes the fact that the entire episode royally sucked.
So check this out. There's this game right. It's called Star Trek Online. And in it, the Undine infiltrate and invade the Federation. Which sends them into all out war.
Hyperbole? Really?
This^^
/10char
Fixed that for you.
IF Janeway had tried your plan the Federation would have had no defense against the Undine when they eventually found Earth. Worse... it would have almost certainly failed.
My character Tsin'xing
Easy solution? Run like hell, call the Federation to warn them, and then try to get back.
Hope that the Borg and the Undine beat each other up. Pass along all the data you can next time you contact the Federation, and hope like hell that they can get some weapons tech to fight whoever wins the war.
My character Tsin'xing
And as we saw in Scorpion, the Undine were winning. Expecting the winner to be "softened up" is at best optimistic. Your approach would have almost certainly doomed Voyager and the Federation to eradication by the Undine.
Also.... Janeway didn't have enough data to formulate an effective defense against undine attacks. she didn't get the data needed until AFTER the alliance with the Borg.
My character Tsin'xing
BWAHAHAHAHAHA
AHAHAHAHA
MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!
*dies laughing*
Jesus, dude. Try googling the phrase "logical fallacy". It will show a picture of your face.
While you're at it, look up "Passive-aggressive".
Voyager is one ship, and a small ship. The idea is to get past Borg battle lines as quickly as possible.
Warning the Federation about these superpowered new guys and telling them to work out some new pewpew guns is the best move. Allying with the Borg is morally unforgivable and just plain stupid.
Allying with the Undine and showing them that not all humanoids are Borg is another good move. Show them that there are people out there who will NOT attack the Undine unprovoked, and get them to differentiate Borg from non-Borg, and you've got an awesomely powerful ally.
The central point is that Scorpion was a terrible episode with awful writing, and that Janeway's actions in it are morally suspect at BEST.
Remember that the Undine come from what is effectively a different dimension, are mostly unfamiliar with non-organic technology, and have a completely alien biology.
To them, all humanoids and all "regular" technology SHOULD look the same, and I'd be surprised if that was not the case.
Not the point. In any reasonably well-written episode, Voyager would've been toast. It's only through Plot Armor and illogical Undine-go-pow torps that they survived at all.
Well, Scorpion was not well-written, dramatic, or even compelling. I've only watched it once, and I had to stop and drink two bottles of eggnog while doing so to simulate intoxication.