"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
BEST ST CHARACTERS: Data; Picard; Kirk (the original, not Abrams'); Spock; Sisko; Janeway; Seven of Nine; Neelix; McCoy; Sulu; Uhura; Q; and Scotty
LEAST FAVORITES (INSTEAD OF WORST): Tasha Yar; Sela; the entirety of the new Star Trek franchise (yep, that's right, I don't like any of it!); Liberache as The Squire of Gothos (I actually enjoyed his role, but I didn't see too much of a difference between his t.v. role and his real life persona. I mean a fruitcake is a fruitcake, right?); Christopher Pike (I hate people who just sit there and blink at you); Charlie X (spoiled brat); son of Q (Infinite spoiled brat); any Federation captain who bucked the Prime Directive and set himself up as a god over an underdeveloped civ (remember the TRIBBLE Party and Kirk and Spock crash it?); Admiral Edward Jellico (what an a-hole!); any alien race that shapeshifts (even the 'good' one that Wesley Crusher fell in love with); Jonathan Archer and his entire crew, including the out-of-place doctor (hey, I love Scott Bakula, the actor, but he's no Starship captain); all of the Bajoran Vedeks (no-good schemers); Tal Shiar; and finally, my least favorite would be any of the huge cosmozoan creatures that threatened the safety of planet Earth (who remembers Star Trek 4, The Voyage Home? I never want to see Leonard Nimoy in leg warmers again!).
Remember that the Undine come from what is effectively a different dimension, are mostly unfamiliar with non-organic technology, and have a completely alien biology.
To them, all humanoids and all "regular" technology SHOULD look the same, and I'd be surprised if that was not the case.
You're forgetting something. The Undine are telepaths. They can tell the difference. The problem was that they didn't care. They had no interest in peace. Peace had no value to them because they thought of everyone else as inferiors that could be just as easily destroyed.
Yeah while I usually agree with everything according voyager chuck says, I feel he is pretty nitpicking when it comes to enterprise.
But his reviews are just opinions after all^^
TNG: the whole cast (including Wesley, DEAL WITH IT) plus Tasta Yar, Barclay, Guinan, Q, and Gowron
DS9: Odo & Quark
VOY: Tuvok, Janeway, Paris, Harry Kim, and The Doctor
ENT: Trip Tucker
WORST:
TOS: Minor characters and red shirts. Oh, and the Klingons.
TNG: Kate Pulaski (although I still like her, she didn't do well), and Ralph Offenhouse (he's an *******)
DS9: Dr. Bashir, Rom (he's afraid of his own shadow)
VOY: Kes (too innocent for my tastes), Seven-of-Nine (true story for this: When Seven came on the show, my Dad was attracted to her TRIBBLE and butt, and he started calling Voyager "The Seven-of-Nine Show"), the Kazon (Klingon regects), The Caretaker
TNG: the whole cast (including Wesley, DEAL WITH IT) plus Tasta Yar, Barclay, Guinan, Q, and Gowron
DS9: Odo & Quark
VOY: Tuvok, Janeway, Paris, Harry Kim, and The Doctor
ENT: Trip Tucker
WORST:
TOS: Minor characters and red shirts. Oh, and the Klingons.
TNG: Kate Pulaski (although I still like her, she didn't do well), and Ralph Offenhouse (he's an *******)
DS9: Dr. Bashir, Rom (he's afraid of his own shadow)
VOY: Kes (too innocent for my tastes), Seven-of-Nine (true story for this: When Seven came on the show, my Dad was attracted to her TRIBBLE and butt, and he started calling Voyager "The Seven-of-Nine Show"), the Kazon (Klingon regects), The Caretaker
ENT: The whole cast except Trip Tucker
Okay, I laughed at the Worst list for Voyager.
As for Enterprise... what about Shran or Phlox? Shran's automatically awesome!
You're forgetting something. The Undine are telepaths. They can tell the difference. The problem was that they didn't care. They had no interest in peace. Peace had no value to them because they thought of everyone else as inferiors that could be just as easily destroyed.
Debatable. Remember, in Scorpion they're new to the galaxy. They've had little to no contact with humanoid minds, and they quite possibly cannot make contact with the Borg.
Also, they're pissed off that beings such as the Borg, which are very obviously physically and technologically inferior, are attempting to attack them. Since fluidic space seems to be a bit of a "wild west" environment, this clashes completely with the Undine worldview.
Essentially, they see the Borg as mosquitoes that just bit them.
With experience, of course, the Undine recognize that humanoids are complex creatures in their own right. CF the terradome.
Point being, first contact needs to focus on standing very, very far away from the Borg, and convincing the Undine that the Federation is really just fine with coexistence.
Failing that, run like hell, ditch the starship and hide on a jungle planet. Build a subspace transponder out of parts of the starship, call home, and tell them that First Contact with a vastly superior species failed utterly.
Another thing to consider with the Undine reaction and Kes' contact...
Kes' abilities had previously been unpredictable and uncontrollable (anyone remember when she boiled Tuvok's blood in his body during a meditation exercise?) There is no guarantee that her interpretation of the context of the contact was reliable. Especially when:
Contact an enemy combatant during combat, and they are going to be in full 'kill the infidels' mode. Later contact showed that the Undine were capable of negotiation and reason, when dealt with with respect, rather than being hit with weapons of mass destruction...
Janeway should have just backed out and escaped, even, as suggested, put everyone in freeze and let the ship get them round the battlefront (a plan which was used in a later episode to pass some kind of spatial anomaly...) By collaborating with the Borg, she went against Starfleet's standing order to engage the Borg in any manner possible, and was guilty of all the charges patrickngo pointed out upthread.
The ideal situation, should have been Chakotay or Tuvok relieving her of duty and assuming command. This should definitely have happened for her actions towards Captain Ransom and the Equinox...
DS9: Sisko, Garak, Quark ( honourable mention for Martok )
VOY: Doctor, Tuvok, Janeway
WORST:
TOS: I never hated any of the mains on TOS, but they weren't really developed much at all to hate
TNG: Riker, Tasha, Wesley
DS9: Mirror Kira, Ezri, Bashir
VOY: Neelix, Harry, as someone said all of Fairhaven, Chakotay, (Seven*)
Chakotay, not because I disliked him, but because he and Harry are the worst developed in the show, for their potential, Chakotay more so than Harry. Seven because he character was overfocused on at the expense of others, and because her character often got away with things for no reason.
Another thing to consider with the Undine reaction and Kes' contact...
Kes' abilities had previously been unpredictable and uncontrollable (anyone remember when she boiled Tuvok's blood in his body during a meditation exercise?) There is no guarantee that her interpretation of the context of the contact was reliable. Especially when:
Contact an enemy combatant during combat, and they are going to be in full 'kill the infidels' mode. Later contact showed that the Undine were capable of negotiation and reason, when dealt with with respect, rather than being hit with weapons of mass destruction...
Janeway should have just backed out and escaped, even, as suggested, put everyone in freeze and let the ship get them round the battlefront (a plan which was used in a later episode to pass some kind of spatial anomaly...) By collaborating with the Borg, she went against Starfleet's standing order to engage the Borg in any manner possible, and was guilty of all the charges patrickngo pointed out upthread.
The ideal situation, should have been Chakotay or Tuvok relieving her of duty and assuming command. This should definitely have happened for her actions towards Captain Ransom and the Equinox...
This is poorly thought out. First, the crew chose to do the suspended animation thing as trying to go around that anomaly would have taken months/years. There was a clear path through Borg space (the "Northwest Passage") and they decided to try for it as it got them through Borg space quickly.
The Northwest Passage was not a clear path through Borg space though. When the crew realised that, they should have turned back, put themselves in stasis, and programmed the ship to skirt the perimeter. Simple commands: Too strong gravity pull, change course away from it. Inhabited systems, change course away from them. Warp signatures, change course away from them. Nothing a current day cruise missile couldn't handle. I agree, doesn't make for interesting viewing, but having a commanding officer who was incompetent, and behaved in such a manner as to deserve court-martial does nothing to engage its audience either.
You all keep bringing up this episode, yet I don't think you paid much attention to what happened in it.
Here's what happened in it:
Janeway made up a regulation on the spot to manipulate Captain Ransom into allowing her a position of seniority. This is not like Kirk making up fizzbin to confuse a couple of guards long enough to escape, this was a Starfleet captain lying to and manipulating a fellow Starfleet captain. Ransom was not a three pip commander, or even some unfortunate soul who had been thrust into a position of command, who legitimately would have been out ranked by Janeway, he was a four pip captain, just like her. They were equals, and to treat him thus, was conduct unbecoming an officer on Janeway's part. Later, she crossed the line again by lowering the forcefield in the cargo bay to get a confession from the crewman. I'll have to check the UCMJ, but I'm sure mistreatment of a prisoner is on there somewhere. At least Chakotay had the stones to do the right thing.
Janeway took umbrage at Ransom's methods, even though he was following a directive to do whatever was necessary to protect his crew. That wouldn't be so bad, if it didn't expose her own hypocrisy, given she would violate orders whenever is suited her opinion, and then slap down others who did so when it didn't.
Janeway almost let an execution happen with Noah Lessing, by letting those creatures kill him in that cargo bay, had Chakotay not been there, Noah would of been killed. Janeway fell off the tracks like she usually does, in so doing she completely disregarded what she did with Lon Suder who was a known killer after that whole Darwin incident and Tuvok mind melding with him and discussing the ethics of what should be done with Suder.
When it suited her questionable ethics she almost threw out one of regulations about prisoners, that they can not be executed, but rather be rehabilitated.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Janeway almost let an execution happen with Noah Lessing, by letting those creatures kill him in that cargo bay, had Chakotay not been there, Noah would of been killed. Janeway fell off the tracks like she usually does, in so doing she completely disregarded what she did with Lon Suder who was a known killer after that whole Darwin incident and Tuvok mind melding with him and discussing the ethics of what should be done with Suder.
When it suited her questionable ethics she almost threw out one of regulations about prisoners, that they can not be executed, but rather be rehabilitated.
One of the many things Voyager failed to follow up on was Janeway going off the rails in that episode. The ramifications of murdering Tuvix is another one.
Though I'll give the writers of Tuvix this much: At least they bothered to show her as hating herself for it at the end of the episode. In TOS they would have brushed it off with Spock insulting Bones and freeze-framing on the crew laughing.
Obviously we all know the problems with Voyager all came down to the inconsistent writing and clueless show-runners. But if you take a holistic approach to it, what you get with Janeway is a woman who absolutely hated herself for stranding the ship in the DQ. That's why she would overreact when her crew was in danger, and why she would never allow herself to have a relationship. That's also why she thought nothing of beaming over and risking getting assimilated by the Borg at every opportunity. And why she was so obsessed with redeeming Seven. She was redeeming herself.
She was depressed, suicidal, and her obsession with getting the crew home was both the cause of it and the only thing that kept her going.
If you look at her as a character instead of the result of sloppy writing, she's a lot more complicated than Sisko, who was basically Jesus of Bajor. Better writers could have made something great out of these contradictions and Janeway would have been something a lot more than she was.
The Northwest Passage was not a clear path through Borg space though. When the crew realised that, they should have turned back, put themselves in stasis, and programmed the ship to skirt the perimeter. Simple commands: Too strong gravity pull, change course away from it. Inhabited systems, change course away from them. Warp signatures, change course away from them. Nothing a current day cruise missile couldn't handle. I agree, doesn't make for interesting viewing, but having a commanding officer who was incompetent, and behaved in such a manner as to deserve court-martial does nothing to engage its audience either.
Here's what happened in it:
Janeway made up a regulation on the spot to manipulate Captain Ransom into allowing her a position of seniority. This is not like Kirk making up fizzbin to confuse a couple of guards long enough to escape, this was a Starfleet captain lying to and manipulating a fellow Starfleet captain. Ransom was not a three pip commander, or even some unfortunate soul who had been thrust into a position of command, who legitimately would have been out ranked by Janeway, he was a four pip captain, just like her. They were equals, and to treat him thus, was conduct unbecoming an officer on Janeway's part. Later, she crossed the line again by lowering the forcefield in the cargo bay to get a confession from the crewman. I'll have to check the UCMJ, but I'm sure mistreatment of a prisoner is on there somewhere. At least Chakotay had the stones to do the right thing.
Janeway took umbrage at Ransom's methods, even though he was following a directive to do whatever was necessary to protect his crew. That wouldn't be so bad, if it didn't expose her own hypocrisy, given she would violate orders whenever is suited her opinion, and then slap down others who did so when it didn't.
Was this before or after Janeway found out that Ransom had chosen to commit genocide to power his ship?
You missed the point of the episode entirely. You also neglected (or forgot) to mention Ransom himself reminding Janeway of Starfleet Regulation 3, paragraph twelve, which stated: "in the event of imminent destruction, a Starfleet captain is authorized to preserve the lives of his crew by any justifiable means." This regulation applies to Janeway as well.
You may feel her actions were incompetent, but again, in the opinion of the (fictional) people whose opinions are the only ones who matter (eg. Starfleet and the Federation Council), her actions were justifiable and she didn't do anything worthy of a court martial.
1. Scorpion had a point? It was a ****ty episode, much like JJ's first movie in terms of plot contrivances, outright stupidity, and poor acting.
2. Note that word "Justifiable". Allying with the Borg is NEVER justifiable, under any circumstances.
And Janeway only evaded court martial due to plot necessity. The Narrative is all-powerful, and supersedes intellect, logic, and even common sense.
Seriously though, Troi, Wesley, and most of the Enterprise-D crew were kind of boring, the whole NX-01 crew was a snore too. I found Jake Sisko really annoying. Best is probably The Doctor, he has so many good lines.
Obviously we all know the problems with Voyager all came down to the inconsistent writing and clueless show-runners. But if you take a holistic approach to it, what you get with Janeway is a woman who absolutely hated herself for stranding the ship in the DQ. That's why she would overreact when her crew was in danger, and why she would never allow herself to have a relationship. That's also why she thought nothing of beaming over and risking getting assimilated by the Borg at every opportunity. And why she was so obsessed with redeeming Seven. She was redeeming herself.
She was depressed, suicidal, and her obsession with getting the crew home was both the cause of it and the only thing that kept her going.
If you look at her as a character instead of the result of sloppy writing, she's a lot more complicated than Sisko, who was basically Jesus of Bajor. Better writers could have made something great out of these contradictions and Janeway would have been something a lot more than she was.
Agreed with all of this, especially the writing and show-runners piece.
Janeway is basically a psychopath in charge of a giant FTL-capable weapons platform.
And she has a transparently obvious death wish, like a Klingon captain would have in the same situation.
Huh. If she'd been better-written, I can easily see Janeway pulling off some of the insane stunts that I write Three through. Utterly focused on a goal, does morally reprehensible and often outright evil things in pursuit of that goal, sees achieving that goal as paramount...
Like a Nemesis unit gone off the rails due to personal loss. No wonder the Delta Quadrant ended up being terrified of Voyager; its captain is a monomaniacal psychopath who lets morals and codes of behavior go hang.
This is irrelevant because, any acts or omissions on the part of Captain Ransom, do not justify the greater violations by Captain Janeway, which I shall be posting below...
This is irrelevant because, any acts or omissions on the part of Captain Ransom, do not justify the greater violations by Captain Janeway, which I shall be posting below...
For all intents and purposes, it was. Watch the episode again. It was devoid of Borg activity, which the crew did not understand why at first. Gravity anomalies were present yes, but they didn't understand why at first and didn't see much problem with them. The crew later found out why and discovered Species 8472 which, by the way, were bent on destroying the rest of the galaxy once they finished with the Borg.
So once they discovered the presence of the Undine, they should have reversed course. Not entered into an alliance with the Borg...
You missed the point of the episode entirely. You also neglected (or forgot) to mention Ransom himself reminding Janeway of Starfleet Regulation 3, paragraph twelve, which stated: "in the event of imminent destruction, a Starfleet captain is authorized to preserve the lives of his crew by any justifiable means." This regulation applies to Janeway as well.
You may feel her actions were incompetent, but again, in the opinion of the (fictional) people whose opinions are the only ones who matter (eg. Starfleet and the Federation Council), her actions were justifiable and she didn't do anything worthy of a court martial.
On the contrary, I got the point of the episode entirely... R3 P12 does not justify the behaviour Captain Janeway performed toward Crewman Lessing...
As for your naive notion that she didn't do anything worthy of a court martial, here is a list of the charges which could be brought against her as a result of her actions during the Equinox Debacle. More than enough for her to be removed from command. Also, don't forget, this is just a single instance of her misbehaviour as an officer. Going episode by episode through Voyager's run, would highlight more of the same...
Art. 83. Fraudulent enlistment, appointment, or separation
Any person who- (1) procures his own enlistment or appointment in the armed forces by knowingly false representation or deliberate concealment as to his qualifications for that enlistment or appointment and receives pay or allowances there under; or (2) procures his own separation from the armed forces by knowingly false representation or deliberate concealment as to his eligibility for that separation;
shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Art. 92. Failure to obey order or regulation
Any person subject to this chapter who- (1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation; (2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by a member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or (3) is derelict in the performance of his duties;
shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Art. 93. Cruelty and maltreatment
Any person subject to this chapter who is guilty of cruelty toward, or oppression or maltreatment of, any person subject to his orders shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Art. 98. Noncompliance with procedural rules
Any person subject to this chapter who- (1) is responsible for unnecessary delay in the disposition of any case of a person accused of an offense under this chapter; or (2) knowingly and intentionally fails to enforce or comply with any provision of this chapter regulating the proceedings before, during, or after trial of an accused;
shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Art. 107. False official statements
Any person subject to this chapter who, with intent to deceive, signs any false record, return, regulation, order, or other official document, knowing it to be false, or makes any other false official statement knowing it to be false, shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Art. 128. Assault
(a) Any person subject to this chapter who attempts or offers with unlawful force or violence to do bodily harm to another person, whether or not the attempt or offer is consummated, is guilty of assault and shall be punished as a court-martial may direct. (b) Any person subject to this chapter who-
(1) commits an assault with a dangerous weapon or other means or force likely to produce death or grievous bodily harm; or (2) commits an assault and intentionally inflicts grievous bodily harm with or without a weapon;
is guilty of aggravated assault and shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Art. 133. Conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman
Any commissioned officer, cadet, or midshipman who is convicted of conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Art. 134. General article
Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special, or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court.
And as he was reminded, that doesn't include or justify mass murder. Sorry, you're wrong once again.
Correction: It did not justify it in Janeway's personal opinion... General Order 24 allows a starship captain to eradicate all life on a planet if justified, which would count as 'genocide or mass murder', so R3 P12, would indeed allow for Captain Ransom's actions...
Comments
Um...
Debatable.
Definitely better than Threshold, though.
Then again, Spock's Brain was better than Threshold.
In fact, there are things clinging to the undersides of trees that can write a better episode than Threshold.
I think everybody's in agreement that, with the possible exception of "A Night in Sickbay"*, "Threshold" is the worst episode in the entire franchise.
* Chuck rated that one worse because it directly contributed to the death of its series.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
BEST ST CHARACTERS: Data; Picard; Kirk (the original, not Abrams'); Spock; Sisko; Janeway; Seven of Nine; Neelix; McCoy; Sulu; Uhura; Q; and Scotty
LEAST FAVORITES (INSTEAD OF WORST): Tasha Yar; Sela; the entirety of the new Star Trek franchise (yep, that's right, I don't like any of it!); Liberache as The Squire of Gothos (I actually enjoyed his role, but I didn't see too much of a difference between his t.v. role and his real life persona. I mean a fruitcake is a fruitcake, right?); Christopher Pike (I hate people who just sit there and blink at you); Charlie X (spoiled brat); son of Q (Infinite spoiled brat); any Federation captain who bucked the Prime Directive and set himself up as a god over an underdeveloped civ (remember the TRIBBLE Party and Kirk and Spock crash it?); Admiral Edward Jellico (what an a-hole!); any alien race that shapeshifts (even the 'good' one that Wesley Crusher fell in love with); Jonathan Archer and his entire crew, including the out-of-place doctor (hey, I love Scott Bakula, the actor, but he's no Starship captain); all of the Bajoran Vedeks (no-good schemers); Tal Shiar; and finally, my least favorite would be any of the huge cosmozoan creatures that threatened the safety of planet Earth (who remembers Star Trek 4, The Voyage Home? I never want to see Leonard Nimoy in leg warmers again!).
My character Tsin'xing
Yeah while I usually agree with everything according voyager chuck says, I feel he is pretty nitpicking when it comes to enterprise.
But his reviews are just opinions after all^^
TOS: Spock, McCoy, Khan, and Scotty
TAS: M'ress & Arex (love these two)
TNG: the whole cast (including Wesley, DEAL WITH IT) plus Tasta Yar, Barclay, Guinan, Q, and Gowron
DS9: Odo & Quark
VOY: Tuvok, Janeway, Paris, Harry Kim, and The Doctor
ENT: Trip Tucker
WORST:
TOS: Minor characters and red shirts. Oh, and the Klingons.
TNG: Kate Pulaski (although I still like her, she didn't do well), and Ralph Offenhouse (he's an *******)
DS9: Dr. Bashir, Rom (he's afraid of his own shadow)
VOY: Kes (too innocent for my tastes), Seven-of-Nine (true story for this: When Seven came on the show, my Dad was attracted to her TRIBBLE and butt, and he started calling Voyager "The Seven-of-Nine Show"), the Kazon (Klingon regects), The Caretaker
ENT: The whole cast except Trip Tucker
View My gallery at http://captricosakara.deviantart.com
Okay, I laughed at the Worst list for Voyager.
As for Enterprise... what about Shran or Phlox? Shran's automatically awesome!
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Debatable. Remember, in Scorpion they're new to the galaxy. They've had little to no contact with humanoid minds, and they quite possibly cannot make contact with the Borg.
Also, they're pissed off that beings such as the Borg, which are very obviously physically and technologically inferior, are attempting to attack them. Since fluidic space seems to be a bit of a "wild west" environment, this clashes completely with the Undine worldview.
Essentially, they see the Borg as mosquitoes that just bit them.
With experience, of course, the Undine recognize that humanoids are complex creatures in their own right. CF the terradome.
Point being, first contact needs to focus on standing very, very far away from the Borg, and convincing the Undine that the Federation is really just fine with coexistence.
Failing that, run like hell, ditch the starship and hide on a jungle planet. Build a subspace transponder out of parts of the starship, call home, and tell them that First Contact with a vastly superior species failed utterly.
Make the best of a bad situation, basically.
Phlox is pretty cool, but Shran is played by Jeffery Combs.
That makes him the best character in Enterprise by default.
Kes' abilities had previously been unpredictable and uncontrollable (anyone remember when she boiled Tuvok's blood in his body during a meditation exercise?) There is no guarantee that her interpretation of the context of the contact was reliable. Especially when:
Contact an enemy combatant during combat, and they are going to be in full 'kill the infidels' mode. Later contact showed that the Undine were capable of negotiation and reason, when dealt with with respect, rather than being hit with weapons of mass destruction...
Janeway should have just backed out and escaped, even, as suggested, put everyone in freeze and let the ship get them round the battlefront (a plan which was used in a later episode to pass some kind of spatial anomaly...) By collaborating with the Borg, she went against Starfleet's standing order to engage the Borg in any manner possible, and was guilty of all the charges patrickngo pointed out upthread.
The ideal situation, should have been Chakotay or Tuvok relieving her of duty and assuming command. This should definitely have happened for her actions towards Captain Ransom and the Equinox...
BEST
TOS: Kirk, Spock, McCoy
TNG: Picard, Data, Worf
DS9: Sisko, Garak, Quark ( honourable mention for Martok )
VOY: Doctor, Tuvok, Janeway
WORST:
TOS: I never hated any of the mains on TOS, but they weren't really developed much at all to hate
TNG: Riker, Tasha, Wesley
DS9: Mirror Kira, Ezri, Bashir
VOY: Neelix, Harry, as someone said all of Fairhaven, Chakotay, (Seven*)
Chakotay, not because I disliked him, but because he and Harry are the worst developed in the show, for their potential, Chakotay more so than Harry. Seven because he character was overfocused on at the expense of others, and because her character often got away with things for no reason.
THIS^^^^^^^^^
Good job summarizing it, marcusdkane.
You know what they say -- even a broken clock is right twice a day :cool:
Here's what happened in it:
Janeway made up a regulation on the spot to manipulate Captain Ransom into allowing her a position of seniority. This is not like Kirk making up fizzbin to confuse a couple of guards long enough to escape, this was a Starfleet captain lying to and manipulating a fellow Starfleet captain. Ransom was not a three pip commander, or even some unfortunate soul who had been thrust into a position of command, who legitimately would have been out ranked by Janeway, he was a four pip captain, just like her. They were equals, and to treat him thus, was conduct unbecoming an officer on Janeway's part. Later, she crossed the line again by lowering the forcefield in the cargo bay to get a confession from the crewman. I'll have to check the UCMJ, but I'm sure mistreatment of a prisoner is on there somewhere. At least Chakotay had the stones to do the right thing.
Janeway took umbrage at Ransom's methods, even though he was following a directive to do whatever was necessary to protect his crew. That wouldn't be so bad, if it didn't expose her own hypocrisy, given she would violate orders whenever is suited her opinion, and then slap down others who did so when it didn't.
When it suited her questionable ethics she almost threw out one of regulations about prisoners, that they can not be executed, but rather be rehabilitated.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
One of the many things Voyager failed to follow up on was Janeway going off the rails in that episode. The ramifications of murdering Tuvix is another one.
Though I'll give the writers of Tuvix this much: At least they bothered to show her as hating herself for it at the end of the episode. In TOS they would have brushed it off with Spock insulting Bones and freeze-framing on the crew laughing.
Obviously we all know the problems with Voyager all came down to the inconsistent writing and clueless show-runners. But if you take a holistic approach to it, what you get with Janeway is a woman who absolutely hated herself for stranding the ship in the DQ. That's why she would overreact when her crew was in danger, and why she would never allow herself to have a relationship. That's also why she thought nothing of beaming over and risking getting assimilated by the Borg at every opportunity. And why she was so obsessed with redeeming Seven. She was redeeming herself.
She was depressed, suicidal, and her obsession with getting the crew home was both the cause of it and the only thing that kept her going.
If you look at her as a character instead of the result of sloppy writing, she's a lot more complicated than Sisko, who was basically Jesus of Bajor. Better writers could have made something great out of these contradictions and Janeway would have been something a lot more than she was.
My character Tsin'xing
1. Scorpion had a point? It was a ****ty episode, much like JJ's first movie in terms of plot contrivances, outright stupidity, and poor acting.
2. Note that word "Justifiable". Allying with the Borg is NEVER justifiable, under any circumstances.
And Janeway only evaded court martial due to plot necessity. The Narrative is all-powerful, and supersedes intellect, logic, and even common sense.
Seriously though, Troi, Wesley, and most of the Enterprise-D crew were kind of boring, the whole NX-01 crew was a snore too. I found Jake Sisko really annoying. Best is probably The Doctor, he has so many good lines.
Agreed with all of this, especially the writing and show-runners piece.
Janeway is basically a psychopath in charge of a giant FTL-capable weapons platform.
And she has a transparently obvious death wish, like a Klingon captain would have in the same situation.
Huh. If she'd been better-written, I can easily see Janeway pulling off some of the insane stunts that I write Three through. Utterly focused on a goal, does morally reprehensible and often outright evil things in pursuit of that goal, sees achieving that goal as paramount...
Like a Nemesis unit gone off the rails due to personal loss. No wonder the Delta Quadrant ended up being terrified of Voyager; its captain is a monomaniacal psychopath who lets morals and codes of behavior go hang.
Irrelevant. Ransom quoted Starfleet Regulation 3, paragraph twelve.
This is irrelevant because, any acts or omissions on the part of Captain Ransom, do not justify the greater violations by Captain Janeway, which I shall be posting below...
Case in point. Marcus wins the IntraWeebs again.
On the contrary, I got the point of the episode entirely... R3 P12 does not justify the behaviour Captain Janeway performed toward Crewman Lessing...
As for your naive notion that she didn't do anything worthy of a court martial, here is a list of the charges which could be brought against her as a result of her actions during the Equinox Debacle. More than enough for her to be removed from command. Also, don't forget, this is just a single instance of her misbehaviour as an officer. Going episode by episode through Voyager's run, would highlight more of the same...
Art. 83. Fraudulent enlistment, appointment, or separation
Any person who- (1) procures his own enlistment or appointment in the armed forces by knowingly false representation or deliberate concealment as to his qualifications for that enlistment or appointment and receives pay or allowances there under; or (2) procures his own separation from the armed forces by knowingly false representation or deliberate concealment as to his eligibility for that separation;
shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Art. 92. Failure to obey order or regulation
Any person subject to this chapter who- (1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation; (2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by a member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or (3) is derelict in the performance of his duties;
shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Art. 93. Cruelty and maltreatment
Any person subject to this chapter who is guilty of cruelty toward, or oppression or maltreatment of, any person subject to his orders shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Art. 98. Noncompliance with procedural rules
Any person subject to this chapter who- (1) is responsible for unnecessary delay in the disposition of any case of a person accused of an offense under this chapter; or (2) knowingly and intentionally fails to enforce or comply with any provision of this chapter regulating the proceedings before, during, or after trial of an accused;
shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Art. 107. False official statements
Any person subject to this chapter who, with intent to deceive, signs any false record, return, regulation, order, or other official document, knowing it to be false, or makes any other false official statement knowing it to be false, shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Art. 128. Assault
(a) Any person subject to this chapter who attempts or offers with unlawful force or violence to do bodily harm to another person, whether or not the attempt or offer is consummated, is guilty of assault and shall be punished as a court-martial may direct. (b) Any person subject to this chapter who-
(1) commits an assault with a dangerous weapon or other means or force likely to produce death or grievous bodily harm; or (2) commits an assault and intentionally inflicts grievous bodily harm with or without a weapon;
is guilty of aggravated assault and shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Art. 133. Conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman
Any commissioned officer, cadet, or midshipman who is convicted of conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
Art. 134. General article
Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special, or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court.
Best: Q, Kirk, Spock, Spock Mirror, Barclay, Wes, Picard, Guinan, Beverly, Data, B4, Lore, Arrik Soong and thebAugments, Khan original, Franklin Drake, the Romulan Republic guy whoose name escapes mewhile I type, Paris, Torres, Kes, Tuvok.
WORST: Q in-game (smugness is worse then Q) , Dr.Cooper in-game, All oF DS9 save O'Brien and Siskos alternate universe persona, Enterprise.
Correction: It did not justify it in Janeway's personal opinion... General Order 24 allows a starship captain to eradicate all life on a planet if justified, which would count as 'genocide or mass murder', so R3 P12, would indeed allow for Captain Ransom's actions...