I think we can all agree as well that the main reason she got promoted to Admiral was because Starfleet knew she'd be much less dangerous driving a desk in comparison to a starship.
No she was promoted so she could have a Cameo in the movie.
I am more interested in why Archer is such a bad character?
My list? I haven;t watched Much TOS but I have watched most of the films and series even one or two TAS episodes.
Form the ENT crew I could only really stand Reed, however he suffered from the same curse of all ST security chiefs, namely the captians always ignore any sudgestions ever.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Nah, there's an inherent sexism related to a lot of the Janeway bashing that takes place on the internet, this thread included.
I think this is very much true, but I agree with them that a lot of the typical Star Trek "The captain is always right even when they're not" writing of her character was a major problem as well.
I'll try to distinguish between characters and series. Voyager and Enterprise were both generally bad. Also, there's a difference between annoying characters and bad characters.
Best: Spock, McCoy (not taking anything away from Shatner's Kirk, but having good supporting characters really made TOS great.) Quark (Slightly annoying, but really built the series)
Worst: Janeway, Movie Picard, New Chechov (So he's wunderkind who's commissioned at 17 now?), New Kirk (So Starfleet just gives starship command to wunderkinds? Why not Chechov?), and New Scotty (gets assigned as chief engineer of a starship with nothing on his resume other than "killed Porthos" but we accept it because it's his destined role)
Surprised that this isn't mentioned more often. Seconded al least concerning Generations, Incurrection and Nemesis.
, New Chechov (So he's wunderkind who's commissioned at 17 now?), New Kirk (So Starfleet just gives starship command to wunderkinds? Why not Chechov?), and New Scotty (gets assigned as chief engineer of a starship with nothing on his resume other than "killed Porthos" but we accept it because it's his destined role)
That are some of the major issues with this movie (at least the 1st one, the second one is... well better as long as you ignore the first... still not "good").
Its also not its because their "destined role", its because its "cooooool".
Best example I can think of off the top of my head is..."State of Flux"? The one with the interstellar transporter that now that I think about it is uncannily similar to the one in ST:ID. She refused to break another nation's laws, for completely harmless purposes, even when she was offered the opportunity to not actually break them herself by having someone from said nation do it for her, letting them deal with their own problem. Sure that never would have worked out to begin with, but that's not pertinent since nobody knew that at the time.
Or what about "Eye of the Needle"? They could have immediately gotten home, but she refused to simply because it would be going back in time. There was an obvious solution: head through, go to the Guardian of Forever (or any of the other couple dozen reliable, undestroyed, and apparently forgotten time-travel methods), and pop back in shortly after the Caretaker incident. Then again, the whole "we have easy and reliable access to time travel but we're not going to actually use it to solve any of these catastrophic problems, except when they involve whales" problem isn't specific to Voyager, so...she really should have just asked what's-his-face to take them to some top-secret Romulan facility where no word of them would get out, and freeze the entire crew in stasis. Sure, some of the Romulan brass might want to mess with them, but they could even just stay in stasis aboard what's-his-face's ship.
Or, just have Q do it. All she had to do was respect the wishes of a sovereign nation over the wishes of a renegade. But I guess...I guess it's understandable that she didn't, since IT'S NOT LIKE SHE REFUSED TO UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES BREAK ANOTHER NATION'S LAWS EVEN WHEN IT WOULD DO NO HARM!
dasl;fhl;j
dh;agelwijhdl;hali
So yeah. She did constantly obstruct efforts to get home.
And please? Don't try to play the sex card here. There is no sexism in this thread that I can see. Not against Janeway, certainly. Maybe somewhere else, but I don't think I've ever run across it. And you really, really don't want to get me started on gender relations. It...just don't open that can of worms, alright? It's not going to end well. I suppose you don't consider the frequent Archer-bashing to be examples of bias against white males?
I guess we haven't been fair to Janeway. Compare the character to the rest of the ones on the show. Half of them start off as Marquis terrorists, and most of the rest commit other crimes of their own over the course of the series. Janeway's ability to maintain any sort of order and discipline on what is essentially a pirate ship is commendable. Also, her cameo on Nemesis where we find she's been promoted to admiral makes sense because every admiral in Starfleet is a criminal.
Also, her cameo on Nemesis where we find she's been promoted to admiral makes sense because every admiral in Starfleet is a criminal.
Or insane .
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Or Nechayev, Hanson and Quinn, who were all legit and sane.
Well, sane for Starfleet Officers, at least.
Nechayev not evil? Really.
The only true Starfleet admiral is Bill Ross.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Bill Ross allied with Section 31 to discredit a Romulan Senator and get an informant into a position of power in direct violation of the Federation Charter! If he's an innocent admiral then so is Dougherty!
Bill Ross allied with Section 31 to discredit a Romulan Senator and get an informant into a position of power in direct violation of the Federation Charter! If he's an innocent admiral then so is Dougherty!
Admiral Dougherty was innocent... He wasn't taking part in Ru'afo's scheme for the lols, but under orders from the Federation Council... He refused to make use of Ru'afo's 'hospitality', specifically stating that he wanted to "wait till they could share the benefits with all the members of the Federation." absolutely no selfish intentions in the man at all.
Dougherty was a good Admiral who got shoehorned into 'villain status' by Plot Necessity...
I disliked Voyager, too, but I think some of the critique levelled against Janeway is a bit... weak.
Helping the Borg is treason? maybe it would be in real life. But Star Trek and the Federation is about an Utopia. The story consequence of the conflict with the Borg is not murder, death, mayhem or genocide, it's armistice, peace, alliance, Federation membership.
Janeway was just a Starfleet captain getting closer to that ideal. You might find it unrealistic, but again, this is Star Trek. It's about a hopeful future.
Picard deciding to not use Hugh to destroy the Collective? Also along the same lines, and we also don't know if the plan would work. Why did they give Hugh back? Because they thought that the individiuality he experienced would transform the collective. The result was a single borg ship falling apart, not the entire collective. Why would we have any reason that that strange shape they wanted to use to take out the collective would have worked any better?
Picard being allowed to be Captain again after having been Locotus - we have nothing in our world that is like Borg assimilation. But if a soldier is captured by the enemy and tortured until he reveals his secrets, I am not sure it would be impossible for him to continue his career after he got free. That said, whatever is true in real life - this is Star Trek. Humanity is more englightened, more advanced - humans can overcome even this type of brainwashing.
It has been a long time since I saw Voyager, that is why I hardly remember details, but I can't shake the feeling that Janeway did act very inconsistently. But overall, that was probably a trait of voyager. I am not sure if they ever really took the premise of the show fully serious and to its logical end. I can't shake the feeling either that if it was Ronald D. Moore instead of Brannon Braga at the helm, the show might have gone differently, and not have an infinite supply of shuttles and torpedoes...
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I disliked Voyager, too, but I think some of the critique levelled against Janeway is a bit... weak.
They're a lot of post-hoc justifications for why they didn't like the show instead of evidence for why Janeway was a bad person and not other captains who also did as they pleased on a regular basis.
Some of it stems from disappointment in the show's inability to pick up the torch after TNG ended. Some of it stems from the fact that it wasn't TNG to begin with. Some of it has to do with ship being run by a uterus owner. A lot of personal baggage goes into making a Star Trek fan's view of the franchise and it takes a lot of effort to separate it from any legit criticism they might have.
They're a lot of post-hoc justifications for why they didn't like the show instead of evidence for why Janeway was a bad person and not other captains who also did as they pleased on a regular basis.
Some of it stems from disappointment in the show's inability to pick up the torch after TNG ended. Some of it stems from the fact that it wasn't TNG to begin with. Some of it has to do with ship being run by a uterus owner. A lot of personal baggage goes into making a Star Trek fan's view of the franchise and it takes a lot of effort to separate it from any legit criticism they might have.
Absolutely nothing to do with it, and do you realise just how offensive that is? That's like saying to a ToS fan "The only reason you don't like Sisko is because he's black!" and accusing someone of being a racist is about as offensive as possible.
My beef with Janeway, is that she was inconsistent. Her adherence or breaches of The Rules fluctuated depending upon Plot Necessity and how she happened to feel about each instance. Her behaviour towards Crewman Lessing in Equinox, in any other circumstance in the Alpha Quadrent, would have had her court-martialled and if not imprisoned, certainly dishonourably discharged for conduct unbecoming an officer. She simply was not fit to command, nor fit to wear the uniform. Kirk, Sisko, Picard etc, broke rules for genuine principles, but tended to be consistent about it. I lost any respect for Picard following the Briar Patch Incident. He had previously relocated a similarly sized group (albeit because he was forced into the situation by Nikolai Rozhenko) but refused to relocate the Ba'ku, because he wanted to hook up with Anij... Equally, he refused to aid Gowron in the Klingon civil war, but was all to happy to throw around his title of Gowron's Aribiter of Succession when he needed a favour. Same double-standards as Janeway, so something I can't respect in a character. Sisko only did morally questionale things when he had absolutely no other choice, and Kirk very rarely broke regulations other than when Spock's well being was concerned, and normally resorted to 'creative interlretation' of said rules, rather than outright breaking them, as Janeway would do
Absolutely nothing to do with it, and do you realise just how offensive that is? That's like saying to a ToS fan "The only reason you don't like Sisko is because he's black!" and accusing someone of being a racist is about as offensive as possible.
My beef with Janeway, is that she was inconsistent. Her adherence or breaches of The Rules fluctuated depending upon Plot Necessity and how she happened to feel about each instance. Her behaviour towards Crewman Lessing in Equinox, in any other circumstance in the Alpha Quadrent, would have had her court-martialled and if not imprisoned, certainly dishonourably discharged for conduct unbecoming an officer. She simply was not fit to command, nor fit to wear the uniform. Kirk, Sisko, Picard etc, broke rules for genuine principles, but tended to be consistent about it. I lost any respect for Picard following the Briar Patch Incident. He had previously relocated a similarly sized group (albeit because he was forced into the situation by Nikolai Rozhenko) but refused to relocate the Ba'ku, because he wanted to hook up with Anij... Equally, he refused to aid Gowron in the Klingon civil war, but was all to happy to throw around his title of Gowron's Aribiter of Succession when he needed a favour. Same double-standards as Janeway, so something I can't respect in a character. Sisko only did morally questionale things when he had absolutely no other choice, and Kirk very rarely broke regulations other than when Spock's well being was concerned, and normally resorted to 'creative interlretation' of said rules, rather than outright breaking them, as Janeway would do
The Nikolai Rozhenko incident was a matter of that civilisation's survival. The Bak'u were being relocated so the Federation could break their own rules and harvest the planet's rings. Slightly different circumstances, eh? And Picard certainly wasn't happy with what Rozhenko did and only went along with it when he had no alternatives.
And the reason he did not aid Gowron during the KCW was because Federation Law prohibited him from doing so, not because it wasn't convenient for him.
There's a difference between double standards and not having an alternative! Same goes for Kirk, Archer, Janeway and Sisko.
The Nikolai Rozhenko incident was a matter of that civilisation's survival. The Bak'u were being relocated so the Federation could break their own rules and harvest the planet's rings. Slightly different circumstances, eh? And Picard certainly wasn't happy with what Rozhenko did and only went along with it when he had no alternatives.
And the reason he did not aid Gowron during the KCW was because Federation Law prohibited him from doing so, not because it wasn't convenient for him.
There's a difference between double standards and not having an alternative! Same goes for Kirk, Archer, Janeway and Sisko.
Federation law prohibited him from saving Sarjenka's planet as well, but he still did that, despite it being an inconvenience forced upon him by Data.
Federation law prohibited him from saving Sarjenka's planet as well, but he still did that, despite it being an inconvenience forced upon him by Data.
Key word there; 'forced'. Data had already violated the Prime Directive. What Picard did, he did because Data put him in a position where his morals came into conflict with the Prime Directive and where the majority of his Bridge Crew didn't agree with the Prime Directive in that instance.
Bill Ross allied with Section 31 to discredit a Romulan Senator and get an informant into a position of power in direct violation of the Federation Charter! If he's an innocent admiral then so is Dougherty!
Dougherty is a 'good guy'. The villains of Insurrection were the crew of the Ent-E. It wasn't the Baku's planet, and the Baku were warp capable (regardless if they used it or not), the prime directive didn't apply to them, and the Federation would have being well within their rights to suck the rings up and use them to save lives in the war.
What I don't get was why working with allies of the Dominon was necessary.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
No. You want to debate something, then debate it without throwing around slurs and accusations of bigotry where none exists.
Oh, and re your avatar...
Whatever the f**k she wants and f**k the consequences, because that's how she rolls...
You're making the obvious fallacy that that comment was directed specifically at you and not others. Again. If it says 'some' in this thread, it means 'some', NOT you.
Dougherty is a 'good guy'. The villains of Insurrection were the crew of the Ent-E. It wasn't the Baku's planet, and the Baku were warp capable (regardless if they used it or not), the prime directive didn't apply to them, and the Federation would have being well within their rights to suck the rings up and use them to save lives in the war.
What I don't get was why working with allies of the Dominon was necessary.
Except the Bak'u were there longer than the Federation, so it was their planet, not the Federation's.
Also, the Voth were originally from Earth, but the Prime Directive still applied to them. Dougherty was using the letter of the law to defy the spirit of the law, as were the Federation Council.
Except the Bak'u were there longer than the Federation, so it was their planet, not the Federation's.
Also, the Voth were originally from Earth, but the Prime Directive still applied to them. Dougherty was using the letter of the law to defy the spirit of the law, as were the Federation Council.
But they were not native, also as far as we could tell the So'na were the government with the Baku falling under their authority, so the planet was Son'a property and they had appealed to the Federation for assistance in mining it.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
But they were not native, also as far as we could tell the So'na were the government with the Baku falling under their authority, so the planet was Son'a property and they had appealed to the Federation for assistance in mining it.
Except, in the film, the Planet was in Federation territory, which is why the Son'a needed Federation help. The Son'a had the technology, but the planet was under Federation jurisdiction.
Also, until later on the Federation didn't even know the Son'a and the Ba'ku were the same race, so that doesn't wash.
Except, in the film, the Planet was in Federation territory, which is why the Son'a needed Federation help. The Son'a had the technology, but the planet was under Federation jurisdiction.
Also, until later on the Federation didn't even know the Son'a and the Ba'ku were the same race, so that doesn't wash.
Oh I forgot it was in Federation territory . No prime directive at all then, they should have evicted them.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Oh I forgot it was in Federation territory . No prime directive at all then, they should have evicted them.
Put it this way:
Does the US Government have the right to 'evict' micro-nations within the US? Because that's the same case with the Ba'ku, except the Ba'ku had been there longer than the Federation, meaning they had the better claim to the planet. Therefore, the Prime Directive did apply as the planet was, according to today's international law, Ba'ku property.
Comments
No she was promoted so she could have a Cameo in the movie.
I am more interested in why Archer is such a bad character?
My list? I haven;t watched Much TOS but I have watched most of the films and series even one or two TAS episodes.
Worst: Lwaxanna Troi, Barclay, Guinan, Chakotay, T'pol
Best: Mcoy(both), Garak, Gul Ducat, Picard, Data, Tuvok, Spock, Quark, Archer
Parallels: my second mission for Fed aligned Romulans.
The whole ENT cast didn't appeal to me right. Trip Tucker,. though ,was my definition of a true "Space Cowboy" with that accent.
View My gallery at http://captricosakara.deviantart.com
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
You misspelled Neelix.
I think this is very much true, but I agree with them that a lot of the typical Star Trek "The captain is always right even when they're not" writing of her character was a major problem as well.
Best: Spock, McCoy (not taking anything away from Shatner's Kirk, but having good supporting characters really made TOS great.) Quark (Slightly annoying, but really built the series)
Worst: Janeway, Movie Picard, New Chechov (So he's wunderkind who's commissioned at 17 now?), New Kirk (So Starfleet just gives starship command to wunderkinds? Why not Chechov?), and New Scotty (gets assigned as chief engineer of a starship with nothing on his resume other than "killed Porthos" but we accept it because it's his destined role)
Surprised that this isn't mentioned more often. Seconded al least concerning Generations, Incurrection and Nemesis.
That are some of the major issues with this movie (at least the 1st one, the second one is... well better as long as you ignore the first... still not "good").
Its also not its because their "destined role", its because its "cooooool".
Or what about "Eye of the Needle"? They could have immediately gotten home, but she refused to simply because it would be going back in time. There was an obvious solution: head through, go to the Guardian of Forever (or any of the other couple dozen reliable, undestroyed, and apparently forgotten time-travel methods), and pop back in shortly after the Caretaker incident. Then again, the whole "we have easy and reliable access to time travel but we're not going to actually use it to solve any of these catastrophic problems, except when they involve whales" problem isn't specific to Voyager, so...she really should have just asked what's-his-face to take them to some top-secret Romulan facility where no word of them would get out, and freeze the entire crew in stasis. Sure, some of the Romulan brass might want to mess with them, but they could even just stay in stasis aboard what's-his-face's ship.
Or, just have Q do it. All she had to do was respect the wishes of a sovereign nation over the wishes of a renegade. But I guess...I guess it's understandable that she didn't, since IT'S NOT LIKE SHE REFUSED TO UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES BREAK ANOTHER NATION'S LAWS EVEN WHEN IT WOULD DO NO HARM!
dasl;fhl;j
dh;agelwijhdl;hali
So yeah. She did constantly obstruct efforts to get home.
And please? Don't try to play the sex card here. There is no sexism in this thread that I can see. Not against Janeway, certainly. Maybe somewhere else, but I don't think I've ever run across it. And you really, really don't want to get me started on gender relations. It...just don't open that can of worms, alright? It's not going to end well. I suppose you don't consider the frequent Archer-bashing to be examples of bias against white males?
Your examples are fine, but they do not prove that she constantly did what it's been said she constantly did.
For that to be true, she'd have had to reject every single opportunity to get home quicker. Which isn't the case.
There certainly is sexism directly at Janeway in this thread. Sorry you can't see it. But it's there.
/sigh
Or insane
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Or Nechayev, Hanson and Quinn, who were all legit and sane.
Well, sane for Starfleet Officers, at least.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Nechayev not evil? Really.
The only true Starfleet admiral is Bill Ross.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Bill Ross allied with Section 31 to discredit a Romulan Senator and get an informant into a position of power in direct violation of the Federation Charter! If he's an innocent admiral then so is Dougherty!
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Admiral Dougherty was innocent... He wasn't taking part in Ru'afo's scheme for the lols, but under orders from the Federation Council... He refused to make use of Ru'afo's 'hospitality', specifically stating that he wanted to "wait till they could share the benefits with all the members of the Federation." absolutely no selfish intentions in the man at all.
Dougherty was a good Admiral who got shoehorned into 'villain status' by Plot Necessity...
Helping the Borg is treason? maybe it would be in real life. But Star Trek and the Federation is about an Utopia. The story consequence of the conflict with the Borg is not murder, death, mayhem or genocide, it's armistice, peace, alliance, Federation membership.
Janeway was just a Starfleet captain getting closer to that ideal. You might find it unrealistic, but again, this is Star Trek. It's about a hopeful future.
Picard deciding to not use Hugh to destroy the Collective? Also along the same lines, and we also don't know if the plan would work. Why did they give Hugh back? Because they thought that the individiuality he experienced would transform the collective. The result was a single borg ship falling apart, not the entire collective. Why would we have any reason that that strange shape they wanted to use to take out the collective would have worked any better?
Picard being allowed to be Captain again after having been Locotus - we have nothing in our world that is like Borg assimilation. But if a soldier is captured by the enemy and tortured until he reveals his secrets, I am not sure it would be impossible for him to continue his career after he got free. That said, whatever is true in real life - this is Star Trek. Humanity is more englightened, more advanced - humans can overcome even this type of brainwashing.
It has been a long time since I saw Voyager, that is why I hardly remember details, but I can't shake the feeling that Janeway did act very inconsistently. But overall, that was probably a trait of voyager. I am not sure if they ever really took the premise of the show fully serious and to its logical end. I can't shake the feeling either that if it was Ronald D. Moore instead of Brannon Braga at the helm, the show might have gone differently, and not have an infinite supply of shuttles and torpedoes...
They're a lot of post-hoc justifications for why they didn't like the show instead of evidence for why Janeway was a bad person and not other captains who also did as they pleased on a regular basis.
Some of it stems from disappointment in the show's inability to pick up the torch after TNG ended. Some of it stems from the fact that it wasn't TNG to begin with. Some of it has to do with ship being run by a uterus owner. A lot of personal baggage goes into making a Star Trek fan's view of the franchise and it takes a lot of effort to separate it from any legit criticism they might have.
Absolutely nothing to do with it, and do you realise just how offensive that is? That's like saying to a ToS fan "The only reason you don't like Sisko is because he's black!" and accusing someone of being a racist is about as offensive as possible.
My beef with Janeway, is that she was inconsistent. Her adherence or breaches of The Rules fluctuated depending upon Plot Necessity and how she happened to feel about each instance. Her behaviour towards Crewman Lessing in Equinox, in any other circumstance in the Alpha Quadrent, would have had her court-martialled and if not imprisoned, certainly dishonourably discharged for conduct unbecoming an officer. She simply was not fit to command, nor fit to wear the uniform. Kirk, Sisko, Picard etc, broke rules for genuine principles, but tended to be consistent about it. I lost any respect for Picard following the Briar Patch Incident. He had previously relocated a similarly sized group (albeit because he was forced into the situation by Nikolai Rozhenko) but refused to relocate the Ba'ku, because he wanted to hook up with Anij... Equally, he refused to aid Gowron in the Klingon civil war, but was all to happy to throw around his title of Gowron's Aribiter of Succession when he needed a favour. Same double-standards as Janeway, so something I can't respect in a character. Sisko only did morally questionale things when he had absolutely no other choice, and Kirk very rarely broke regulations other than when Spock's well being was concerned, and normally resorted to 'creative interlretation' of said rules, rather than outright breaking them, as Janeway would do
The Nikolai Rozhenko incident was a matter of that civilisation's survival. The Bak'u were being relocated so the Federation could break their own rules and harvest the planet's rings. Slightly different circumstances, eh? And Picard certainly wasn't happy with what Rozhenko did and only went along with it when he had no alternatives.
And the reason he did not aid Gowron during the KCW was because Federation Law prohibited him from doing so, not because it wasn't convenient for him.
There's a difference between double standards and not having an alternative! Same goes for Kirk, Archer, Janeway and Sisko.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Cry me a river.
You didn't even think about what you wrote there, did you?
Federation law prohibited him from saving Sarjenka's planet as well, but he still did that, despite it being an inconvenience forced upon him by Data.
No. You want to debate something, then debate it without throwing around slurs and accusations of bigotry where none exists.
Oh, and re your avatar...
Whatever the f**k she wants and f**k the consequences, because that's how she rolls...
Key word there; 'forced'. Data had already violated the Prime Directive. What Picard did, he did because Data put him in a position where his morals came into conflict with the Prime Directive and where the majority of his Bridge Crew didn't agree with the Prime Directive in that instance.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Dougherty is a 'good guy'. The villains of Insurrection were the crew of the Ent-E. It wasn't the Baku's planet, and the Baku were warp capable (regardless if they used it or not), the prime directive didn't apply to them, and the Federation would have being well within their rights to suck the rings up and use them to save lives in the war.
What I don't get was why working with allies of the Dominon was necessary.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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You're making the obvious fallacy that that comment was directed specifically at you and not others. Again. If it says 'some' in this thread, it means 'some', NOT you.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Except the Bak'u were there longer than the Federation, so it was their planet, not the Federation's.
Also, the Voth were originally from Earth, but the Prime Directive still applied to them. Dougherty was using the letter of the law to defy the spirit of the law, as were the Federation Council.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
But they were not native, also as far as we could tell the So'na were the government with the Baku falling under their authority, so the planet was Son'a property and they had appealed to the Federation for assistance in mining it.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Except, in the film, the Planet was in Federation territory, which is why the Son'a needed Federation help. The Son'a had the technology, but the planet was under Federation jurisdiction.
Also, until later on the Federation didn't even know the Son'a and the Ba'ku were the same race, so that doesn't wash.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Oh I forgot it was in Federation territory
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Put it this way:
Does the US Government have the right to 'evict' micro-nations within the US? Because that's the same case with the Ba'ku, except the Ba'ku had been there longer than the Federation, meaning they had the better claim to the planet. Therefore, the Prime Directive did apply as the planet was, according to today's international law, Ba'ku property.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood