apparently not when he went after voyagers subspace field device and sacrificed more of those creatures, reprogramming the doctor to extract info from 7 of 9 forcefully with the intention that it would kill her. then claiming "he had no choice". if he really felt as if it was a burden, why compound one failure with another and attack another federation ship and crew for?
People in holes tend to dig themselves deeper... Given the state of the Equinox and the conditions he and the crew had been living under, some of those behaviours would have become second nature (consider how Archer backslid during their time in the expanse...) Eventually though, Ransom's conscience did reassert itself, and he redeemed himself by sacrificing himself to save the crew(s)... A flawed hero indeed, but a hero none the less, IMHO...
ransom had one redeeming feature about him though, he went down with the ship, saved some of his crew. however i doubt janeway would let this happen to her, she would like do a voyager kamikaze before giving up, and causing yet another bad choice and more destruction.
Exactly. She would have to take everyone else with her, not have the stones to do it alone like Ransom did...
People in holes tend to dig themselves deeper... Given the state of the Equinox and the conditions he and the crew had been living under, some of those behaviours would have become second nature (consider how Archer backslid during their time in the expanse...) Eventually though, Ransom's conscience did reassert itself, and he redeemed himself by sacrificing himself to save the crew(s)... A flawed hero indeed, but a hero none the less, IMHO...
i saw him as a traitor and death was too worthy of him, however he at least redeemed himself in part. but if ransom was tired of this whole journey, he should of come clean the moment he had the chance on voyager instead of hiding it and causing more issues, at that point all he did wrong was killing a few creatures and violating the prime directive. it didnt make any sense to add treason to his list of crimes and almost sacrifice not one but two sets of crews. had it been me and i was this wearied of this burdened i would want to tell someone my crime and take this problem off my shoulders and just accept the fact i got this far at all, so what if it takes a few more years, the equinox can be repaired, both ships could transfer crew and cargoes, heck i may even get the chance to command the equinox again with a good crew with a chance to redeem myself for my lousy actions at the start of the journey.
Ransoms conscience kicked in way too late. then there is the bit about his death, he was wearng the neck device to escape into a virtual world, thats symbolic in that hes not facing his responsibility for his actions but rather hiding from it in that virtual world.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
And the Borg had shown on numerous occasions on numerous episodes and a feature film that they can adapt. Perfectly.
They have shown the ability to adapt to energy weapons and that they can survive hard vacuum. Nothing else.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
How so? I've simply offered a different opinion and point of view.
Without answering their question. The question was 'did Janeway do anything wrong?', not 'did Starfleet punish Janeway for doing anything wrong?'. All you have to do is give a yes/no answer, and everybody's happy. So;
Did Janeway commit treason against the Federation by siding with the Borg in 'Scorpion'?
They've also been shown to adapt to tactics. Admittedly, only in TNG, but they did adapt to tactics.
I've seen BOBW. They didn't do anything in that episode that they didn't do any other time,* i.e. bull right through enemy fire on a straight-line course and blast anything directly in their path. The show may have said they can adapt to tactics, but they do not demonstrate it.
* Other than beaming through shields and kidnapping Picard, I mean.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I've seen BOBW. They didn't do anything in that episode that they didn't do any other time,* i.e. bull right through enemy fire on a straight-line course and blast anything directly in their path. The show may have said they can adapt to tactics, but they do not demonstrate it.
* Other than beaming through shields and kidnapping Picard, I mean.
They did adapt to the shifting phaser modulations, and, to their credit, they knew Starfleet couldn't stop them in BOBW, so there was no need to adapt. They steamrolled the Federation Fleet.
i saw him as a traitor and death was too worthy of him, however he at least redeemed himself in part. but if ransom was tired of this whole journey, he should of come clean the moment he had the chance on voyager instead of hiding it and causing more issues, at that point all he did wrong was killing a few creatures and violating the prime directive. it didnt make any sense to add treason to his list of crimes and almost sacrifice not one but two sets of crews. had it been me and i was this wearied of this burdened i would want to tell someone my crime and take this problem off my shoulders and just accept the fact i got this far at all, so what if it takes a few more years, the equinox can be repaired, both ships could transfer crew and cargoes, heck i may even get the chance to command the equinox again with a good crew with a chance to redeem myself for my lousy actions at the start of the journey.
Ransoms conscience kicked in way too late. then there is the bit about his death, he was wearng the neck device to escape into a virtual world, thats symbolic in that hes not facing his responsibility for his actions but rather hiding from it in that virtual world.
I can't disagree with you, but I'm trying to remember, was it Ransom or his XO who wanted to confess to Janeway, only to be told by the other that she wouldn't understand? I admit, he dug himself in deep, but he did pull himself back at the end, and as above, Janeway would be incapable of sacrificing herself as Ransom did...
Except I share your opinion. How hard is it to just say 'no' so those two will stop arguing with you and we can get back on topic?
And, worffan, starsword, to his credit, he has answered your question in that post.
What I see in that post is him saying "Well, Sisko and Picard did it, too." That's not the question I asked.
EDIT: Strike that, I see what he's looking at now.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
TNG: Lwaxana Troi - hunting picard as a boyfriend and "Dark Page".
DS9: Reese - Expert soldier, kept his head in extended combat, snglehandedly took down many jem'hadar on AR-558.
TOS: Pavel Chekov - Comical Russian character who developed into fine senior officer of Starfleet.
VOY: Neelix - because everyone else hates him. i like his cheeriness, his willingness to prove himself, even going so far to throw fruits, veg and pans at a kazon in the messhall.
ENT: Charles Tucker III - best regular character on Enterprise.
FILMS PRIME: James Kirk - mostly because of his epic one liner "what does god want with a starship?"
FILMS JJCRAP: Hikaru Sulu - The most anonymous and sane crewmember on the bridge.
Worst-
TNG: Wesley Crusher - "Shut up Wesley" as stated by Picard sums him up nicely.
DS9: Ezri Dax - didnt really like her character even though points in her favor for helping Garak.
TOS: Harcourt Mudd - his dress sense is awful and never really added anything to TOS.
VOY: Katherine Janeway - Reckless beyond reason.
ENT: Hoshi Sato - Not becauses a bad actress, but the role she was given was too much complaining and not enough showing anything special. most of the time she was just a wooden ornament in the corner.
FILMS PRIME: Ahdar Ru'afo - his character was just mediocre upto the "no!" scream from the holoship veiw point, at that point his character took a nosedive imo.
FILMS JJCRAP: James Kirk - Hes not a captain and hes not ready for the role, now he has superman blood in his veins. its not just a fail, its not just an epic fail, its an cataclysmic failure so bad its beyond our comprehension of the worst thing we can think of.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
The trouble wasn't so much that Janeway broke regulations. It's that she did it for stupid reasons, and refused to do so when it would actually have helped the situation. I have no problem with taking extreme measures; to be honest, I fully support ItPML and Sisko's actions there. But constantly obstructing any plans of getting home, while in other cases causing mass destruction for no real reason? That's just rubbish.
And I think the whole Janeway-is-nuts thing does have to do with her gender, Valoreah, although perhaps not in the way you're thinking. I think that the writers were so concerned with having a female captain that they were afraid to portray her in the wrong, but since they couldn't write, wound up having her in the wrong incessantly, but never acknowledged it. It's a credit to DS9's writing that Sisko never fell into this pitfall.
Yeah, but Bush and Cheney can't leave the country for fear of arrest. And nobody's disputing the fact that Bush, Cheney, and to a lesser extent Blair are bad people.
I dispute that. If I recall correctly, there was reason to believe that there were WMDs there, since the former ruler of said country wouldn't even allow U.N. inspectors in to take a look.
--Janeway openly aided and abetted the Borg, the single most destructive, morally repulsive organization in the galaxy, in the attempted assimilation and/or destruction of a species that she had literally just encountered. That is high treason, a war crime, and a crime against humanity (or the equivalent). If Janeway were a Klingon, her first officer would've challenged her on the spot.
It's been a couple of years since I've watched Voyager. However, didn't Janeway meet Species 8472 a few episodes earlier than the one where she makes a decision to barter for a short passage through a war zone rather than travel the several years it would take to go around? And, frankly, for those of you stating that she should have made a run for it through the passage, you're fooling yourselves.
The same could be said of working with 8472 against the Borg.
The Borg are a known evil. 8472, as of Scorpion, are unknown.
I would think it would be more logical to side with a known enemy (that you know will betray you at its earliest convenience) that you can plan defenses against, than an unknown enemy that you can't plan a defense against. Knowns can be predicted. Unknowns will TRIBBLE you every time.
But constantly obstructing any plans of getting home, while in other cases causing mass destruction for no real reason? That's just rubbish.
That is indeed rubbish. Since she didn't do that. She didn't "constantly" obstruct plans for getting home.
And I think the whole Janeway-is-nuts thing does have to do with her gender, Valoreah, although perhaps not in the way you're thinking.
Nah, there's an inherent sexism related to a lot of the Janeway bashing that takes place on the internet, this thread included.
I notice not a single poster has had any criticism of Galina "Red" Reznikov for instance. But that could be because she's a cook and not a captain of anything?
Comments
OK, I apologize. I was pissed off at the troll, I will go back and fix my comment. Thank you for helping cool off my head.
People in holes tend to dig themselves deeper... Given the state of the Equinox and the conditions he and the crew had been living under, some of those behaviours would have become second nature (consider how Archer backslid during their time in the expanse...) Eventually though, Ransom's conscience did reassert itself, and he redeemed himself by sacrificing himself to save the crew(s)... A flawed hero indeed, but a hero none the less, IMHO...
Exactly. She would have to take everyone else with her, not have the stones to do it alone like Ransom did...
i saw him as a traitor and death was too worthy of him, however he at least redeemed himself in part. but if ransom was tired of this whole journey, he should of come clean the moment he had the chance on voyager instead of hiding it and causing more issues, at that point all he did wrong was killing a few creatures and violating the prime directive. it didnt make any sense to add treason to his list of crimes and almost sacrifice not one but two sets of crews. had it been me and i was this wearied of this burdened i would want to tell someone my crime and take this problem off my shoulders and just accept the fact i got this far at all, so what if it takes a few more years, the equinox can be repaired, both ships could transfer crew and cargoes, heck i may even get the chance to command the equinox again with a good crew with a chance to redeem myself for my lousy actions at the start of the journey.
Ransoms conscience kicked in way too late. then there is the bit about his death, he was wearng the neck device to escape into a virtual world, thats symbolic in that hes not facing his responsibility for his actions but rather hiding from it in that virtual world.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
No problem. Valoreah is being a little bit of troll, I'll admit.
Now, can everyone agree that Voyager was the least well-written Trek series (next to TOS) and get this thread back on topic? Great!
Best (TOS): Kirk, Spock, McCoy
Worst (TOS): Charlie X.
Best (TNG): Picard, Data, Tasha, Geordi, Worf, Pulaski, Tomalak.
Worst (TNG): Ralph Offenhouse.
Best (DS9): Sisko, O'Brien, Bashir, Garak, Ezri, Odo, Kira, Damar.
Worst (DS9): Kai Winn, hands down.
Best (VOY): The Doctor, Tuvok.
Worst (VOY): Seska.
Best (ENT): Trip, Phlox, Archer, Shran.
Worst (ENT): Mayweather, Hoshi (not their fault, but they got so little character development compared to the other characters).
Best (reboot): Scotty, Spock Prime (not to be confused with Sentinel Prime! :cool:).
Worst (reboot): Chekov.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
They have shown the ability to adapt to energy weapons and that they can survive hard vacuum. Nothing else.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
They've also been shown to adapt to tactics. Admittedly, only in TNG, but they did adapt to tactics.
That was before Voyager made them mindless automatons.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Without answering their question. The question was 'did Janeway do anything wrong?', not 'did Starfleet punish Janeway for doing anything wrong?'. All you have to do is give a yes/no answer, and everybody's happy. So;
Did Janeway commit treason against the Federation by siding with the Borg in 'Scorpion'?
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
I've seen BOBW. They didn't do anything in that episode that they didn't do any other time,* i.e. bull right through enemy fire on a straight-line course and blast anything directly in their path. The show may have said they can adapt to tactics, but they do not demonstrate it.
* Other than beaming through shields and kidnapping Picard, I mean.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
They did adapt to the shifting phaser modulations, and, to their credit, they knew Starfleet couldn't stop them in BOBW, so there was no need to adapt. They steamrolled the Federation Fleet.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Except I share your opinion. How hard is it to just say 'no' so those two will stop arguing with you and we can get back on topic?
And, worffan, starsword, to his credit, he has answered your question in that post.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
What I see in that post is him saying "Well, Sisko and Picard did it, too." That's not the question I asked.
EDIT: Strike that, I see what he's looking at now.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Best-
TNG: Lwaxana Troi - hunting picard as a boyfriend and "Dark Page".
DS9: Reese - Expert soldier, kept his head in extended combat, snglehandedly took down many jem'hadar on AR-558.
TOS: Pavel Chekov - Comical Russian character who developed into fine senior officer of Starfleet.
VOY: Neelix - because everyone else hates him. i like his cheeriness, his willingness to prove himself, even going so far to throw fruits, veg and pans at a kazon in the messhall.
ENT: Charles Tucker III - best regular character on Enterprise.
FILMS PRIME: James Kirk - mostly because of his epic one liner "what does god want with a starship?"
FILMS JJCRAP: Hikaru Sulu - The most anonymous and sane crewmember on the bridge.
Worst-
TNG: Wesley Crusher - "Shut up Wesley" as stated by Picard sums him up nicely.
DS9: Ezri Dax - didnt really like her character even though points in her favor for helping Garak.
TOS: Harcourt Mudd - his dress sense is awful and never really added anything to TOS.
VOY: Katherine Janeway - Reckless beyond reason.
ENT: Hoshi Sato - Not becauses a bad actress, but the role she was given was too much complaining and not enough showing anything special. most of the time she was just a wooden ornament in the corner.
FILMS PRIME: Ahdar Ru'afo - his character was just mediocre upto the "no!" scream from the holoship veiw point, at that point his character took a nosedive imo.
FILMS JJCRAP: James Kirk - Hes not a captain and hes not ready for the role, now he has superman blood in his veins. its not just a fail, its not just an epic fail, its an cataclysmic failure so bad its beyond our comprehension of the worst thing we can think of.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Go back and read the last line. He says:
I'd say that constitutes a 'no', wouldn't you?
Now, what did everyone think of my comprehensive series-by-series best/worst character list?
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
This^^^
I'd just add Jadzia to the Best list and New Kirk and Neelix to the Worst list. And New Bones is awesome, if criminally underused.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
No harm done. Now, can we leave the Voyager argument alone? Or make a separate thread for it, so this one can get back on topic?
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
I'll start one...
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Highest post count in a week wins? :P
your on!
best get going to avoid derailing this thread further.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
And I think the whole Janeway-is-nuts thing does have to do with her gender, Valoreah, although perhaps not in the way you're thinking. I think that the writers were so concerned with having a female captain that they were afraid to portray her in the wrong, but since they couldn't write, wound up having her in the wrong incessantly, but never acknowledged it. It's a credit to DS9's writing that Sisko never fell into this pitfall.
I dispute that. If I recall correctly, there was reason to believe that there were WMDs there, since the former ruler of said country wouldn't even allow U.N. inspectors in to take a look.
It's been a couple of years since I've watched Voyager. However, didn't Janeway meet Species 8472 a few episodes earlier than the one where she makes a decision to barter for a short passage through a war zone rather than travel the several years it would take to go around? And, frankly, for those of you stating that she should have made a run for it through the passage, you're fooling yourselves.
I would think it would be more logical to side with a known enemy (that you know will betray you at its earliest convenience) that you can plan defenses against, than an unknown enemy that you can't plan a defense against. Knowns can be predicted. Unknowns will TRIBBLE you every time.
That is indeed rubbish. Since she didn't do that. She didn't "constantly" obstruct plans for getting home.
Nah, there's an inherent sexism related to a lot of the Janeway bashing that takes place on the internet, this thread included.
I notice not a single poster has had any criticism of Galina "Red" Reznikov for instance. But that could be because she's a cook and not a captain of anything?