Key word there; 'forced'. Data had already violated the Prime Directive. What Picard did, he did because Data put him in a position where his morals came into conflict with the Prime Directive and where the majority of his Bridge Crew didn't agree with the Prime Directive in that instance.
Data emotionally blackmailed Picard into the decision by putting Sarjenka 'on speaker'. That his crew didn't agree with it in that instance is irrelevant. I believe it was in this very episode, that Picard comments that the Prime Directive is an absolute which personal feelings have no part in. Arguably, he should have refused to be emotioanally drawn in, and disciplined Data (but that wouldn't've made much of an episode :P )
Does the US Government have the right to 'evict' micro-nations within the US? Because that's the same case with the Ba'ku, except the Ba'ku had been there longer than the Federation, meaning they had the better claim to the planet. Therefore, the Prime Directive did apply as the planet was, according to today's international law, Ba'ku property.
I'm not familiar with the term 'micro-nations' beyond Sealand of the cost of Britain, do you mean when a person sets up their own country in another's sovereign territory?
If so they yes they had the right.
I haven't watched the film for a while so I can't remember it been said that the Ba'ku were there first (I'll take your word for it).
However that does bring up rather uncomfortable parallels with the Americans (well British, French, and Duch at the time) taking the natives land.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I'm not familiar with the term 'micro-nations' beyond Sealand of the cost of Britain, do you mean when a person sets up their own country in another's sovereign territory?
If so they yes they had the right.
I haven't watched the film for a while so I can't remember it been said that the Ba'ku were there first (I'll take your word for it).
However that does bring up rather uncomfortable parallels with the Americans (well British, French, and Duch at the time) taking the natives land.
You have a good point there. The UFP is basically an idealized Space America.
And the Ba'ku are a bunch of Space Apaches just trying to live their lives in the Space Middle of Nowhere.
I will always have a sweet spot for Insurrection as a morally-gray drama with a lot of Worf badassery.
You're making the obvious fallacy that that comment was directed specifically at you and not others. Again. If it says 'some' in this thread, it means 'some', NOT you.
I actually wasn't taking it as a personal comment, but I still find it offensive when people carelessly throw around accusations of bigotry when none is present in a discussion...
Data emotionally blackmailed Picard into the decision by putting Sarjenka 'on speaker'. That his crew didn't agree with it in that instance is irrelevant. I believe it was in this very episode, that Picard comments that the Prime Directive is an absolute which personal feelings have no part in. Arguably, he should have refused to be emotioanally drawn in, and disciplined Data (but that wouldn't've made much of an episode :P )
Except, in the film, the Planet was in Federation territory, which is why the Son'a needed Federation help. The Son'a had the technology, but the planet was under Federation jurisdiction.
Also, until later on the Federation didn't even know the Son'a and the Ba'ku were the same race, so that doesn't wash.
It was known that the Son'a had conquered two other species and integrated them into their society, so again, it may have been believed that the Ba'ku were under Son'a jurisdiction, and, it was not as if anyone was going to be killed, even when Ru'afo sent his fighters and drones down, they were using isolines tags to beam people off the planet, not just slaughtering on site...
Personally, I don't care how long the Ba'ku had been living there -- they were not native to the planet, and had warp capability. The Prime Directive did not apply, and the Ba'ku were selfishly keeping their immortality themselves, where the plan which Dougherty was authorised by the Council, would have benefited all members of the Federation, not just a few dozen squatters.
It was known that the Son'a had conquered two other species and integrated them into their society, so again, it may have been believed that the Ba'ku were under Son'a jurisdiction, and, it was not as if anyone was going to be killed, even when Ru'afo sent his fighters and drones down, they were using isolines tags to beam people off the planet, not just slaughtering on site...
Personally, I don't care how long the Ba'ku had been living there -- they were not native to the planet, and had warp capability. The Prime Directive did not apply, and the Ba'ku were selfishly keeping their immortality themselves, where the plan which Dougherty was authorised by the Council, would have benefited all members of the Federation, not just a few dozen squatters.
Most Americans weren't native to America, either!
Besides, the film made it clear that there had been multiple generations born on the planet since the Ba'ku arrived. Those people would be natives and, in the absence of a true homeworld, that planet would serve as such.
And the Ba'ku weren't even ASKED! Dougherty and the Son'a basically went 'okay, we're taking your rings, making your planet uninhabitable, and you don't have a say in the matter, because you're only 600 people and we don't care that you have a greater claim on this planet than us because we're more advanced and can do whatever we want'.
Also, the Romulans were native to Vulcan! Therefore, by your logic, the Romulans are also subjects of the Federation!
And the Ba'ku weren't even ASKED! Dougherty and the Son'a basically went 'okay, we're taking your rings, making your planet uninhabitable, and you don't have a say in the matter, because you're only 600 people and we don't care that you have a greater claim on this planet than us because we're more advanced and can do whatever we want'.
Well to start with they didn't know the Bak'u were WC (well the Son'a did, not not the feds).
I was kind to them to move them to an identical place whilst the old planet was turned into the cure for death.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Well to start with they didn't know the Bak'u were WC (well the Son'a did, not not the feds).
I was kind to them to move them to an identical place whilst the old planet was turned into the cure for death.
Do you realise what you just said? If the Feds didn't know they were WC, then the Prime Directive did apply, making the relocation illegal under Federation Law!
Do you realise what you just said? If the Feds didn't know they were WC, then the Prime Directive did apply, making the relocation illegal under Federation Law!
Yeah I just realised that.
I change my opinion, Dougherty should be court marshalled.
Though I do still accept that it was the 'right' thing to do even if it wasn't the 'legal' thing to do, 600 people vs. the entire federation, and it's not as though they would all be killed instantly without the rings.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I change my opinion, Dougherty should be court marshalled.
Though I do still accept that it was the 'right' thing to do even if it wasn't the 'legal' thing to do, 600 people vs. the entire federation, and it's not as though they would all be killed instantly without the rings.
I still think Picard did the right thing. I once made a speech from 2 of Picard's on this subject:
How many does it take, before it becomes wrong? A hundred? A thousand? A million? How many does it take?
The answer; one. Just one.
With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied chains us all irrevocably. Any time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged.
Besides, the film made it clear that there had been multiple generations born on the planet since the Ba'ku arrived. Those people would be natives and, in the absence of a true homeworld, that planet would serve as such.
And the Ba'ku weren't even ASKED! Dougherty and the Son'a basically went 'okay, we're taking your rings, making your planet uninhabitable, and you don't have a say in the matter, because you're only 600 people and we don't care that you have a greater claim on this planet than us because we're more advanced and can do whatever we want'.
Also, the Romulans were native to Vulcan! Therefore, by your logic, the Romulans are also subjects of the Federation!
Actually, the Federation Council made that decision, not Admiral Dougherty...
Also, the Romulans were native to Vulcan! Therefore, by your logic, the Romulans are also subjects of the Federation!
I don't know about your logic, but mine says that the Romulans left Vulcan long before the inception of the Federation, so that is a ludicrous point to make...
I still think Picard did the right thing. I once made a speech from 2 of Picard's on this subject:
How many does it take, before it becomes wrong? A hundred? A thousand? A million? How many does it take?
The answer; one. Just one.
With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied chains us all irrevocably. Any time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged.
However, let's just agree to disagree.
Oh I do agree with that speech, the fact that it was 'wrong' at 600, however it was something that needed to be done IMO.
'The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.'.
As long as no one actually has to die, I think mine is more appropriate.
But fair enough,
'When the facts have all been reconciled, all that remains is your own interpretation of them'.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Irrelevant... White Guilt is not going to change my opinion...
Actually, the Federation Council made that decision, not Admiral Dougherty...
I don't know about your logic, but mine says that the Romulans left Vulcan long before the inception of the Federation, so that is a ludicrous point to make...
Except, as I stated, the Ba'ku were there before the Federation. According to present day international law, that means they have the better claim to the planet, not the Son'a, and not the Federation. That means the Prime Directive does apply to them.
Except, as I stated, the Ba'ku were there before the Federation. According to present day international law, that means they have the better claim to the planet, not the Son'a, and not the Federation. That means the Prime Directive does apply to them.
As artan42 said above, none of the Ba'ku were going to die or be killed as a result of their relocation (and as Admiral Dougherty pointed out to Picard: They were never meant to be immortal) so I can quite happily reconcile Picard's little rant with 'the needs of the many...". I appreciate that that was the point of the film, but in all honesty, the Plot Necessity over-ruled the rationality of the situation...
As artan42 said above, none of the Ba'ku were going to die or be killed as a result of their relocation (and as Admiral Dougherty pointed out to Picard: They were never meant to be immortal) so I can quite happily reconcile Picard's little rant with 'the needs of the many...". I appreciate that that was the point of the film, but in all honesty, the Plot Necessity over-ruled the rationality of the situation...
You haven't addressed my point. Do you deny that the Ba'ku had the better claim on the planet?
I can honestly only blame the different writers at this point. Picard and Janeway suffered heavily from inconsistencies in how they dealt with the PD.
Remember that episode were Riker becomes Q? Picard lets the little child die rather than having Riker save her, 'how many lives captain'? 'Before it become wrong'?.
That is why Janeway is disliked so much not because of moral greyness (as Sisko is almost universally loved for the very same), but because of inconsistences in just how she applied the PD.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Nothing beats Janeway for recklessness, first there is allying with the Borg and then there was the Vaad'duar incident which was Seven's mistake as well
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
I had a think about Janeway ailing with the Borg. I was against it before and I'm still not in favour of it, however 8472 were a bigger threat.
Janeway would have been better off modifying the nanoprobes to self-destruct after a bit, and asked the Borg for the use of a TW conduit back home rather than just passage through Borg-Space.
Maybe the Borg and 8472 would have wiped each other out, either way Janeway would not have give the Borg an advantage that strengthened the collective.
Maybe after wiping out the Borg (who provoked them) 8472 would have gone back to fluidic space.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
the best:garak,quark all episodes with him and conected to him were super fun,,spock,kirks doctor cant remember his name atm,kirk
the worst:whole voyager crew,whole new trak movies crew,
No. You want to debate something, then debate it without throwing around slurs and accusations of bigotry where none exists.
The 23rd post in this thread admits to sexism:
This was probably more to do with politically correct men trying to write a strong woman without knowing what a strong woman is, or looks like. (yeah, sexism, I went there.)
There is sexism in this thread. I'm sorry you don't see it, but it exists. It continually pops up in almost every fan discussion of Janeway, and really most media stories written about that character.
It definitely shows up quite often in much of the dislike for the character on a sub level. The vitriol for actions she took, which when stripped down are similar to actions Kirk took, is really fascinating, and does point to an inherent bias against her because she was a she.
Anyways, she's not my favorite character. Voyager's not my favorite Trek. So I'm not really keen on spending to much effort defending her.
I just think quite a few posts in this thread are hilarious. Not even the sexism ones. But rather the ones that come up with all of these ideas on how she could have gotten home quicker. Like "Let Q do it."
When the artificial construct of the show's PREMISE was to keep them stranded.
It's like you folks NEVER WATCHED GILLIGAN'S ISLAND. Even once.
There is sexism in this thread. I'm sorry you don't see it, but it exists. It continually pops up in almost every fan discussion of Janeway, and really most media stories written about that character.
Have to admit, I saw patrickngo's comment as being tongue in cheek reference to the Politically Correct Brigade, rather than actual sexism, or critique of Janeway for being female...
It definitely shows up quite often in much of the dislike for the character on a sub level. The vitriol for actions she took, which when stripped down are similar to actions Kirk took, is really fascinating, and does point to an inherent bias against her because she was a she.
The difference though, is for all Kirk's reputation as a cowboy, he was actually a very by the book officer, and would usually find creative interpretations to the rules rather than outright breaking them, other than in situations where Spock was somehow imperilled. Janeway, on the other hand, often took opposing sides of the moral debate on different occasions.
When the artificial construct of the show's PREMISE was to keep them stranded.
It's like you folks NEVER WATCHED GILLIGAN'S ISLAND. Even once.
I always took the premise of the series being to get home... Equally, I've seen comment on other threads, that of all the series, Voyager actually visited Earth the most
Never seen Gilligan's Island though... Well, maybe in a past life, but not this time round :cool:
There is sexism in this thread. I'm sorry you don't see it, but it exists. It continually pops up in almost every fan discussion of Janeway, and really most media stories written about that character.
It definitely shows up quite often in much of the dislike for the character on a sub level. The vitriol for actions she took, which when stripped down are similar to actions Kirk took, is really fascinating, and does point to an inherent bias against her because she was a she.
Anyways, she's not my favorite character. Voyager's not my favorite Trek. So I'm not really keen on spending to much effort defending her.
I just think quite a few posts in this thread are hilarious. Not even the sexism ones. But rather the ones that come up with all of these ideas on how she could have gotten home quicker. Like "Let Q do it."
When the artificial construct of the show's PREMISE was to keep them stranded.
It's like you folks NEVER WATCHED GILLIGAN'S ISLAND. Even once.
Yeah like Marcus said. That particular comment was not saying that the poster was sexist, but rather saying that "ooh, sexism, gender in writing!" It was just mentioning that that's part of why the character was poorly written.
Yes, we all know about this trope. And I can't speak for anyone else, but I loathe it with every fiber of my being. If you want being stranded to be the premise, make sure they're actually stranded, and not just there because of the stupidity of whoever's in charge. Or, actually, you could just make Janeway the villain. Acknowledge her insanity, and have the show be about her crew's attempts to get them home in spite of it. That actually might have been awesome.
Oh yeah and about the sexism. People hate Archer too, right? Why do they hate Archer? I'll tell you why. It's not because they have a bias against white males, just like hating Janeway isn't because people have a bias against white females. It's because he's inconsistent, obnoxious, and sanctimonious...he's the same character as Janeway. Except slightly less annoying, IMO, because the narrative doesn't quite focus on him always being right even when he's not as much as Janeway's does, and because in certain limited situations (like the conclusion of the Xindi incident) he's quite well written, unlike Janeway, who was only ever written mediocre-ly at best.
Yeah like Marcus said. That particular comment was not saying that the poster was sexist, but rather saying that "ooh, sexism, gender in writing!" It was just mentioning that that's part of why the character was poorly written.
Yes, we all know about this trope. And I can't speak for anyone else, but I loathe it with every fiber of my being. If you want being stranded to be the premise, make sure they're actually stranded, and not just there because of the stupidity of whoever's in charge. Or, actually, you could just make Janeway the villain. Acknowledge her insanity, and have the show be about her crew's attempts to get them home in spite of it. That actually might have been awesome.
THIS^^^^^^^
Status Quo Is God is my LEAST favorite trope. At least Orcus On His Throne is good for DMing...
Oh yeah and about the sexism. People hate Archer too, right? Why do they hate Archer? I'll tell you why. It's not because they have a bias against white males, just like hating Janeway isn't because people have a bias against white females. It's because he's inconsistent, obnoxious, and sanctimonious...he's the same character as Janeway. Except slightly less annoying, IMO, because the narrative doesn't quite focus on him always being right even when he's not as much as Janeway's does, and because in certain limited situations (like the conclusion of the Xindi incident) he's quite well written, unlike Janeway, who was only ever written mediocre-ly at best.
Agreed, again.
Archer is usually an obnoxious, sanctimonious idiot. But I can think of five or six episodes when he actually acts like a Captain.
Yeah like Marcus said. That particular comment was not saying that the poster was sexist, but rather saying that "ooh, sexism, gender in writing!" It was just mentioning that that's part of why the character was poorly written.
Yes, we all know about this trope. And I can't speak for anyone else, but I loathe it with every fiber of my being. If you want being stranded to be the premise, make sure they're actually stranded, and not just there because of the stupidity of whoever's in charge. Or, actually, you could just make Janeway the villain. Acknowledge her insanity, and have the show be about her crew's attempts to get them home in spite of it. That actually might have been awesome.
Oh yeah and about the sexism. People hate Archer too, right? Why do they hate Archer? I'll tell you why. It's not because they have a bias against white males, just like hating Janeway isn't because people have a bias against white females. It's because he's inconsistent, obnoxious, and sanctimonious...he's the same character as Janeway. Except slightly less annoying, IMO, because the narrative doesn't quite focus on him always being right even when he's not as much as Janeway's does, and because in certain limited situations (like the conclusion of the Xindi incident) he's quite well written, unlike Janeway, who was only ever written mediocre-ly at best.
Actually writing Janeway the way she was written was sexism IMO. I mean they did have a fine actress and everything, still they didn't thing that a female character can be strong/a good leader and human and flawed beeing at the same time.
About Archer, I really didn't like him too, at all. But he has going for him that at his time, space exploration was something entirely new and he didn't been have a real rule book.. while at Janeways time space travel has been a common thing for 200 years...
If you or anyone else has spent anytime in this thread suggesting that Q could have just winked Voyager home, then no, you're not really giving the trope it's due.
Voyager was stuck in the same situation as Gilligan's Island.
Could Q have blinked everything back? Absolutely.
Then what?
Voyager got home just in time to end the series.
That's how it was always planned to go. Was it a writing obstacle? Absolutely. Was it Janeway's fault? Not even in the slightest.
Oh yeah and about the sexism.
Yeah, about that, it's here in this thread too. Subtle and not so subtle. There is hatred of Janeway that is rooted in her being a female. Wether some realize it or not, it's there. It's in EVERY Janeway discussion, unfortunately.
People hate Archer too, right? Why do they hate Archer?
Mostly people hate things that are different. People loathed Picard when TNG debuted. Loathed him. He wasn't Kirk. He was too old. Too bald. Too stiff.
Eventually he saw four lights and people were like, "Woah, give this dude an emmy."
But people don't like things to change. So they hated on Picard. They absolutely hated on Janeway because of that. They hated on DS9 because it wasn't about a ship. And they hated on Enterprise because it wasn't very Trek-like at first and Archer wasn't like any of the previous captains.
Guess why people loathe Pine?
Anyways, like I said, Voyager and Janeway weren't my favorite. I just am a little fascinated by how you're so quick to write off the inherent sexism that's obviously followed Mulgrew around since she first put on her communicator pin. But hey, whatever.
Keep on chugging out ways Voyager could have been done different over 10 years ago, with Q like beings or suspended animation tubes or whatever. That's my favorite bit here. Folks coming up with plot ideas that would have ended the show YEARS before it was going to end.
You really want a good idea on how they could have gotten home quicker?
Professor Janeway could have made a transwarp engine out of coconuts and bamboo and Neelix and his little buddy Paris could have flown the ship back to Hawaii!
--I never hated Picard or Sisko. They were both awesome from the start (especially Picard)
--I hated Janeway because she was a complete and utter idiot. Same with Archer, the sanctimonious fool.
--I hate New Kirk because he's not just a horny, drunken frat boy who think's he's a genius, but he's an arrogant, poorly-acted horny, drunken frat boy who think's he's a genius.
Seriously. New Kirk harasses random women in the street. No WONDER New Spock gets the only decent love interest.
In a nutshell, you're making sweeping generalizations with a condescending tone. Would you please rephrase those statements in a less arrogant fashion?
If you or anyone else has spent anytime in this thread suggesting that Q could have just winked Voyager home, then no, you're not really giving the trope it's due.
Voyager was stuck in the same situation as Gilligan's Island.
Could Q have blinked everything back? Absolutely.
Then what?
Voyager got home just in time to end the series.
That's how it was always planned to go. Was it a writing obstacle? Absolutely. Was it Janeway's fault? Not even in the slightest.
Oh but it was her fault... Tuvok told her that he could use the array to return them to Federation space. Janeway decides that the Ocampa suddenly need her protection, and decides to destroy the array stranding Voyager. Her fault. I understand that that was the premise, but that was her fault. To make it worse, she didn't care about the Ocampa enough to actually stay around long enough to do anything about the Kazon, instead, she just upset the balance of power in the system, then flew off on her merry way...
Actually, Voyager getting home would not have had to be the end of the series... The show was written so it could be shown out of sequence in syndication, essentially as TNG II. So Voyager gets home... Cue an episode of Cloud Atlas/Modern Family interviews with the crew being de-briefed... The Maquis were wanted fugutives (although of course, they likely wouldn't've been put in a penal colony) Paris was released from prison into Janeway's custody, and would have been cut free after he'd assisted on the original mission, so he wouldn't've been going back to New Zealand (even with his reactivated commission) Crewman Harran could've done a nice middle finger salute to the camera, before saying "TRIBBLE you guys -- I'm going home!" And then the series could have continued in the Alpha Quadrant however the cards lay. It would still be the adventures of the USS Voyager, and given many episodes did not actually deal with them being isolated from the Federation, it would have made no difference. Maybe Tuvok could have visited Janeway in New Zealand from time to time...
Yeah, about that, it's here in this thread too. Subtle and not so subtle. There is hatred of Janeway that is rooted in her being a female. Wether some realize it or not, it's there. It's in EVERY Janeway discussion, unfortunately.
Examples, please... I've not seen anyone criticising Janeway for making poor decisions because it was her time of the month, or any other such sh*te which would validate such a deflective straw man argument. Infact, the only sexism, has come from a feminist who gives the concept a bad name...
Mostly people hate things that are different. People loathed Picard when TNG debuted. Loathed him. He wasn't Kirk. He was too old. Too bald. Too stiff.
Eventually he saw four lights and people were like, "Woah, give this dude an emmy."
But people don't like things to change. So they hated on Picard. They absolutely hated on Janeway because of that. They hated on DS9 because it wasn't about a ship. And they hated on Enterprise because it wasn't very Trek-like at first and Archer wasn't like any of the previous captains.
Guess why people loathe Pine?
People hate on Voyager because it's poorly written sh*te... Are there some good episodes in there? Sure, but you've got to sift through some real TRIBBLE to find them...
Oh, and people hate PineKirk because he's a douchebag. He's not Kirk, he's a pastiche of Kirk's hyped up reputation. Bedding two chicks at the same time -- conduct unbecoming... 'Introducing' himself to the women outside command (with the intent of getting 'the hookup') conduct unbecoming, sexual harassment and possibly abuse of rank... The guy's a jerk who should have been booted from the Academy for cheating (conduct unbecoming) and sent back to Iowa, not enabled by Pike (who equally had no business wearing the uniform once he was unable to walk without a cane, as his disability made him unfit for duty... He couldn't even haul his own TRIBBLE out of a firing line... How much good would such a person be on a starship once things hit the fan?? And as for Spock then mind-r**ping him by forcing a mind-meld while he was dying -- that was just f**ked up! :eek:
Keep on chugging out ways Voyager could have been done different over 10 years ago, with Q like beings or suspended animation tubes or whatever. That's my favorite bit here. Folks coming up with plot ideas that would have ended the show YEARS before it was going to end.
Oh but this is the thing, they did put the crew on ice for an episode where it suited them to do so...
And what's wrong with freeze tubes? They're good enough for the Alien franchise to use all the time... Hell, the Engineers have clearly been using them for millennia, and that shows something rather disappointing about them... For all their bioengineering genious and beautiful holography, the bald TRIBBLE don't even have FTL drives Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha
So yeah, freeze tubes to get the crew round Borg space without having to commit treason by allying with the Borg, and next episode, they wake up and continue on their merry way...
Aaand, as I pointed out at the top of this post, Voyager returning to Federation space does not have to mean the end of the series...
Comments
Data emotionally blackmailed Picard into the decision by putting Sarjenka 'on speaker'. That his crew didn't agree with it in that instance is irrelevant. I believe it was in this very episode, that Picard comments that the Prime Directive is an absolute which personal feelings have no part in. Arguably, he should have refused to be emotioanally drawn in, and disciplined Data (but that wouldn't've made much of an episode :P )
I'm not familiar with the term 'micro-nations' beyond Sealand of the cost of Britain, do you mean when a person sets up their own country in another's sovereign territory?
If so they yes they had the right.
I haven't watched the film for a while so I can't remember it been said that the Ba'ku were there first (I'll take your word for it).
However that does bring up rather uncomfortable parallels with the Americans (well British, French, and Duch at the time) taking the natives land.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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You have a good point there. The UFP is basically an idealized Space America.
And the Ba'ku are a bunch of Space Apaches just trying to live their lives in the Space Middle of Nowhere.
I will always have a sweet spot for Insurrection as a morally-gray drama with a lot of Worf badassery.
I actually wasn't taking it as a personal comment, but I still find it offensive when people carelessly throw around accusations of bigotry when none is present in a discussion...
That was Worf, not Picard.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
It was known that the Son'a had conquered two other species and integrated them into their society, so again, it may have been believed that the Ba'ku were under Son'a jurisdiction, and, it was not as if anyone was going to be killed, even when Ru'afo sent his fighters and drones down, they were using isolines tags to beam people off the planet, not just slaughtering on site...
Personally, I don't care how long the Ba'ku had been living there -- they were not native to the planet, and had warp capability. The Prime Directive did not apply, and the Ba'ku were selfishly keeping their immortality themselves, where the plan which Dougherty was authorised by the Council, would have benefited all members of the Federation, not just a few dozen squatters.
I'm sure Picard also said that at some point, perhaps another episode... Either way, Data emotionally blackmailed Picard into the course of action...
Most Americans weren't native to America, either!
Besides, the film made it clear that there had been multiple generations born on the planet since the Ba'ku arrived. Those people would be natives and, in the absence of a true homeworld, that planet would serve as such.
And the Ba'ku weren't even ASKED! Dougherty and the Son'a basically went 'okay, we're taking your rings, making your planet uninhabitable, and you don't have a say in the matter, because you're only 600 people and we don't care that you have a greater claim on this planet than us because we're more advanced and can do whatever we want'.
Also, the Romulans were native to Vulcan! Therefore, by your logic, the Romulans are also subjects of the Federation!
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Well to start with they didn't know the Bak'u were WC (well the Son'a did, not not the feds).
I was kind to them to move them to an identical place whilst the old planet was turned into the cure for death.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Do you realise what you just said? If the Feds didn't know they were WC, then the Prime Directive did apply, making the relocation illegal under Federation Law!
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Yeah I just realised that.
I change my opinion, Dougherty should be court marshalled.
Though I do still accept that it was the 'right' thing to do even if it wasn't the 'legal' thing to do, 600 people vs. the entire federation, and it's not as though they would all be killed instantly without the rings.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I still think Picard did the right thing. I once made a speech from 2 of Picard's on this subject:
How many does it take, before it becomes wrong? A hundred? A thousand? A million? How many does it take?
The answer; one. Just one.
With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied chains us all irrevocably. Any time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged.
However, let's just agree to disagree.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Actually, the Federation Council made that decision, not Admiral Dougherty...
I don't know about your logic, but mine says that the Romulans left Vulcan long before the inception of the Federation, so that is a ludicrous point to make...
Oh I do agree with that speech, the fact that it was 'wrong' at 600, however it was something that needed to be done IMO.
'The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.'.
As long as no one actually has to die, I think mine is more appropriate.
But fair enough,
'When the facts have all been reconciled, all that remains is your own interpretation of them'.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Except, as I stated, the Ba'ku were there before the Federation. According to present day international law, that means they have the better claim to the planet, not the Son'a, and not the Federation. That means the Prime Directive does apply to them.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
You haven't addressed my point. Do you deny that the Ba'ku had the better claim on the planet?
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Remember that episode were Riker becomes Q? Picard lets the little child die rather than having Riker save her, 'how many lives captain'? 'Before it become wrong'?.
That is why Janeway is disliked so much not because of moral greyness (as Sisko is almost universally loved for the very same), but because of inconsistences in just how she applied the PD.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I'm not denying it, I simply don't care... IMHO, the benefit to the Federation supersedes the desire of the Ba'ku to be immortal...
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Janeway would have been better off modifying the nanoprobes to self-destruct after a bit, and asked the Borg for the use of a TW conduit back home rather than just passage through Borg-Space.
Maybe the Borg and 8472 would have wiped each other out, either way Janeway would not have give the Borg an advantage that strengthened the collective.
Maybe after wiping out the Borg (who provoked them) 8472 would have gone back to fluidic space.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
the worst:whole voyager crew,whole new trak movies crew,
The 23rd post in this thread admits to sexism:
There is sexism in this thread. I'm sorry you don't see it, but it exists. It continually pops up in almost every fan discussion of Janeway, and really most media stories written about that character.
It definitely shows up quite often in much of the dislike for the character on a sub level. The vitriol for actions she took, which when stripped down are similar to actions Kirk took, is really fascinating, and does point to an inherent bias against her because she was a she.
Anyways, she's not my favorite character. Voyager's not my favorite Trek. So I'm not really keen on spending to much effort defending her.
I just think quite a few posts in this thread are hilarious. Not even the sexism ones. But rather the ones that come up with all of these ideas on how she could have gotten home quicker. Like "Let Q do it."
When the artificial construct of the show's PREMISE was to keep them stranded.
It's like you folks NEVER WATCHED GILLIGAN'S ISLAND. Even once.
The difference though, is for all Kirk's reputation as a cowboy, he was actually a very by the book officer, and would usually find creative interpretations to the rules rather than outright breaking them, other than in situations where Spock was somehow imperilled. Janeway, on the other hand, often took opposing sides of the moral debate on different occasions.
I always took the premise of the series being to get home... Equally, I've seen comment on other threads, that of all the series, Voyager actually visited Earth the most
Never seen Gilligan's Island though... Well, maybe in a past life, but not this time round :cool:
Yeah like Marcus said. That particular comment was not saying that the poster was sexist, but rather saying that "ooh, sexism, gender in writing!" It was just mentioning that that's part of why the character was poorly written.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StatusQuoIsGod
Yes, we all know about this trope. And I can't speak for anyone else, but I loathe it with every fiber of my being. If you want being stranded to be the premise, make sure they're actually stranded, and not just there because of the stupidity of whoever's in charge. Or, actually, you could just make Janeway the villain. Acknowledge her insanity, and have the show be about her crew's attempts to get them home in spite of it. That actually might have been awesome.
Oh yeah and about the sexism. People hate Archer too, right? Why do they hate Archer? I'll tell you why. It's not because they have a bias against white males, just like hating Janeway isn't because people have a bias against white females. It's because he's inconsistent, obnoxious, and sanctimonious...he's the same character as Janeway. Except slightly less annoying, IMO, because the narrative doesn't quite focus on him always being right even when he's not as much as Janeway's does, and because in certain limited situations (like the conclusion of the Xindi incident) he's quite well written, unlike Janeway, who was only ever written mediocre-ly at best.
Status Quo Is God is my LEAST favorite trope. At least Orcus On His Throne is good for DMing...
Agreed, again.
Archer is usually an obnoxious, sanctimonious idiot. But I can think of five or six episodes when he actually acts like a Captain.
Actually writing Janeway the way she was written was sexism IMO. I mean they did have a fine actress and everything, still they didn't thing that a female character can be strong/a good leader and human and flawed beeing at the same time.
About Archer, I really didn't like him too, at all. But he has going for him that at his time, space exploration was something entirely new and he didn't been have a real rule book.. while at Janeways time space travel has been a common thing for 200 years...
If you or anyone else has spent anytime in this thread suggesting that Q could have just winked Voyager home, then no, you're not really giving the trope it's due.
Voyager was stuck in the same situation as Gilligan's Island.
Could Q have blinked everything back? Absolutely.
Then what?
Voyager got home just in time to end the series.
That's how it was always planned to go. Was it a writing obstacle? Absolutely. Was it Janeway's fault? Not even in the slightest.
Yeah, about that, it's here in this thread too. Subtle and not so subtle. There is hatred of Janeway that is rooted in her being a female. Wether some realize it or not, it's there. It's in EVERY Janeway discussion, unfortunately.
Mostly people hate things that are different. People loathed Picard when TNG debuted. Loathed him. He wasn't Kirk. He was too old. Too bald. Too stiff.
Eventually he saw four lights and people were like, "Woah, give this dude an emmy."
But people don't like things to change. So they hated on Picard. They absolutely hated on Janeway because of that. They hated on DS9 because it wasn't about a ship. And they hated on Enterprise because it wasn't very Trek-like at first and Archer wasn't like any of the previous captains.
Guess why people loathe Pine?
Anyways, like I said, Voyager and Janeway weren't my favorite. I just am a little fascinated by how you're so quick to write off the inherent sexism that's obviously followed Mulgrew around since she first put on her communicator pin. But hey, whatever.
Keep on chugging out ways Voyager could have been done different over 10 years ago, with Q like beings or suspended animation tubes or whatever. That's my favorite bit here. Folks coming up with plot ideas that would have ended the show YEARS before it was going to end.
You really want a good idea on how they could have gotten home quicker?
Professor Janeway could have made a transwarp engine out of coconuts and bamboo and Neelix and his little buddy Paris could have flown the ship back to Hawaii!
--I hated Janeway because she was a complete and utter idiot. Same with Archer, the sanctimonious fool.
--I hate New Kirk because he's not just a horny, drunken frat boy who think's he's a genius, but he's an arrogant, poorly-acted horny, drunken frat boy who think's he's a genius.
Seriously. New Kirk harasses random women in the street. No WONDER New Spock gets the only decent love interest.
In a nutshell, you're making sweeping generalizations with a condescending tone. Would you please rephrase those statements in a less arrogant fashion?
Oh but it was her fault... Tuvok told her that he could use the array to return them to Federation space. Janeway decides that the Ocampa suddenly need her protection, and decides to destroy the array stranding Voyager. Her fault. I understand that that was the premise, but that was her fault. To make it worse, she didn't care about the Ocampa enough to actually stay around long enough to do anything about the Kazon, instead, she just upset the balance of power in the system, then flew off on her merry way...
Actually, Voyager getting home would not have had to be the end of the series... The show was written so it could be shown out of sequence in syndication, essentially as TNG II. So Voyager gets home... Cue an episode of Cloud Atlas/Modern Family interviews with the crew being de-briefed... The Maquis were wanted fugutives (although of course, they likely wouldn't've been put in a penal colony) Paris was released from prison into Janeway's custody, and would have been cut free after he'd assisted on the original mission, so he wouldn't've been going back to New Zealand (even with his reactivated commission) Crewman Harran could've done a nice middle finger salute to the camera, before saying "TRIBBLE you guys -- I'm going home!" And then the series could have continued in the Alpha Quadrant however the cards lay. It would still be the adventures of the USS Voyager, and given many episodes did not actually deal with them being isolated from the Federation, it would have made no difference. Maybe Tuvok could have visited Janeway in New Zealand from time to time...
Examples, please... I've not seen anyone criticising Janeway for making poor decisions because it was her time of the month, or any other such sh*te which would validate such a deflective straw man argument. Infact, the only sexism, has come from a feminist who gives the concept a bad name...
People hate on Voyager because it's poorly written sh*te... Are there some good episodes in there? Sure, but you've got to sift through some real TRIBBLE to find them...
Oh, and people hate PineKirk because he's a douchebag. He's not Kirk, he's a pastiche of Kirk's hyped up reputation. Bedding two chicks at the same time -- conduct unbecoming... 'Introducing' himself to the women outside command (with the intent of getting 'the hookup') conduct unbecoming, sexual harassment and possibly abuse of rank... The guy's a jerk who should have been booted from the Academy for cheating (conduct unbecoming) and sent back to Iowa, not enabled by Pike (who equally had no business wearing the uniform once he was unable to walk without a cane, as his disability made him unfit for duty... He couldn't even haul his own TRIBBLE out of a firing line... How much good would such a person be on a starship once things hit the fan?? And as for Spock then mind-r**ping him by forcing a mind-meld while he was dying -- that was just f**ked up! :eek:
Oh but this is the thing, they did put the crew on ice for an episode where it suited them to do so...
And what's wrong with freeze tubes? They're good enough for the Alien franchise to use all the time... Hell, the Engineers have clearly been using them for millennia, and that shows something rather disappointing about them... For all their bioengineering genious and beautiful holography, the bald TRIBBLE don't even have FTL drives
So yeah, freeze tubes to get the crew round Borg space without having to commit treason by allying with the Borg, and next episode, they wake up and continue on their merry way...
Aaand, as I pointed out at the top of this post, Voyager returning to Federation space does not have to mean the end of the series...