Correction: It did not justify it in Janeway's personal opinion... General Order 24 allows a starship captain to eradicate all life on a planet if justified, which would count as 'genocide or mass murder', so R3 P12, would indeed allow for Captain Ransom's actions...
Precisely.
Ransom technically did nothing wrong, according to a strict reading of Starfleet regs, and neither did Janeway.
They both committed outright evil acts for the same reason, though.
And as he was reminded, that doesn't include or justify mass murder. Sorry, you're wrong once again.
You can post what you like until you're blue in the face. All the huffing and puffing, whining and pining and foot stomping isn't going to change the fact that you're wrong. Starfleet and the Federation Council didn't see any wrongdoing in anything Janeway had done. Period.
Oh but they did. That's why she was pulled from active command and sidelined as a desk jockey a command... The fact hat she got Voyager home was probably the only thing that kept her from being dishonourably discharged. Actually, what I've posted explains very clearly why Captain Janeway is unfit to wear a Starfleet uniform, let alone command a starship... And all your pissy whining won't change that fact...
Guess what? Starfleet and the Federation didn't see it that way and they promoted her and theirs is the only opinion that matters.
Why don't you make use of the Foundry and live out your fantasy of removing Janeway from command and executing her? I'll happily give it a try and will be sure to give it 1 star.
Why don't you take your head out of your TRIBBLE and answer the call for evidence I made several pages ago?
Again, provide evidence that Janeway did not commit treason, regardless of whether Starfleet Internal Affairs even idly toyed with a vague notion of taking a cursory glance at some redshirt's half-remembered anecdote on the incident, or Shut. The. ****. Up. How much more clear do I have to be?
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Guess what? Starfleet and the Federation didn't see it that way and they promoted her and theirs is the only opinion that matters.
Not true. Janeway was only promoted due to plot necessity, and we aren't discussing whether the Federation approved of Janeway's actions. We are discussing whether what she did is absolutely legal and/or ethical.
And her actions were neither legal nor ethical under Federation law and conventional humanoid morals.
In your opinion. Others obviously felt differently. Again, in the opinion of the (fictional) people whose opinions are the only ones who matter (eg. Starfleet and the Federation Council), her actions were justifiable and she didn't do anything worthy of a court martial.
And take even longer to get home? No. That wasn't the premise of the show.
The premise for the show? Who cares how long it took them to get there... Stasis was used in an episode when plot dictated, so there is equally no reason why it could not have been used then (other than plot necessity)
Oh but they did. That's why she was pulled from active command and sidelined as a desk jockey a command... The fact hat she got Voyager home was probably the only thing that kept her from being dishonourably discharged. Actually, what I've posted explains very clearly why Captain Janeway is unfit to wear a Starfleet uniform, let alone command a starship... And all your pissy whining won't change that fact...
See, troll boy, this is plain and simple. Plot necessity is the ONLY thing protecting Janeway's psychotic, megalomaniacal TRIBBLE from being kicked out of Starfleet and/or executed outright.
Why don't you take your head out of your TRIBBLE and answer the call for evidence I made several pages ago?
starswordc, because he's trolling and isn't actually interested in what we have to say. Note that he's never noted a single good thing that Janeway did, or even really a reason why the things she did weren't outright evil. He's just pleading extenuating circumstances in every case.
No, no, no, no. She never showed any signs of psychopathy like a lack of remorse. That would be Ransom.
Look at how she's played (Yay for Kate Mulgrew!) when she does something she hates. She's swallowing her self-loathing and remorse for what she has done. That's why her voice was always cracking. When she has to fight a species that could have been friends it's not anger you see as you would with a psychopath, it's sadness. She was tightly wound the entire seven years and a future version of herself commited suicide in Endgame.
That's depression.
Common expressions of depression tend to be anger, risky behaviour, and bouncing between highs and lows. Janeway was depressed. Picard had a ship's counselor to help him. Janeway just had Chakotay saying vague New-age woo at her. Keeping the crew alive was all she had as a support structure. That's why her obsession for Seven. And why Seven always hurt her so easily when she rebelled against the starship's social order.
Better writing and show-running would have recognized and explored the obvious mental stress of the character that emerged over the years of inconsistent writing. They would have explored why Chakotay became so passive so quickly for a rebel leader. Why Paris fell in love with an abusive woman. Why Kim... um... was just there and never grew?
Like I said, Janeway is dark and troubled. Far darker and troubled than anyone on DS9.
That doesn't mean I'm not going to take my arguments seriously. Answer the damn question.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Yes, it was Janeway's opinion and again, it would appear Starfleet and the Federation Council agreed with her decision, so sorry, you're wrong yet again.
You are so way off base with GO 24 it's laughable. It's not an absolute man, just like the Prime Directive isn't an absolute. It's not like GO 24 gives any Captain the OK to just blow up a planet willy nilly.
So...you think that Janeway's justifications are absolute, but nothing else?
TRIBBLE that, you hypocritical troll.
And AGAIN, we're discussing whether what Janeway did is legal and/or ethical, not whether the Federation did anything about it.
Why don't you stop trolling and insulting me? I don't have to provide any evidence beyond what canon already tells us. Canon clearly shows she didn't do anything illegal, unethical or wrong in the eyes of the Federation or Starfleet. You may disagree and that's fine. It's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Stop trying to pass it off as fact though, because it isn't.
Answer the damn question. We are not talking about whether the Federation thought she did anything wrong. We are talking about whether she did anything wrong.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Janeway strikes me as the quintessential Starfleet captain. Inconsistent, inefficient, and worshiped by a crew too afraid to stand up to her. It's no surprise the Federation promoted her.
To be honest, the Tuvix thing doesn't bother me that much, although I admittedly haven't seen the episode itself. Even Scorpion doesn't really get to me, although I would point out that Janeway had no real indication that the Undine were hostile. Her rationale seems to have been, other than the "the weak shall perish" line that could have meant almost anything, and could in fact have been Kes's imagination for all she knew, was that an Undine attacked and nearly killed Harry...when they boarded its ship without permission and started examining it. I mean, I wouldn't say that he deserved it, but you can't really blame the pilot either.
What does get to me is the fact that Janeway constantly gets in the way and does stupid things for no reason. What she should have immediately done upon reaching the Delta Quadrant (if we ignore whatever methods she could have used during the Caretaker incident to get home) was find allies with powerful technology. Actually, an alliance with the Borg could have been a very good idea, although not for the reasons used: they have transwarp, and it seems like they might have been able to come to an arrangement. Then again, that has more to do with my view of the Borg and how they're needlessly destructive when they really don't need to be hostile at all, so.
An alliance with the Undine could have worked too. There might have been a way to use fluidic space to get home, in return for their experience with the Borg. Or, you know, just ask Q nicely, instead of being a moron when he showed up. Or, head into the Gamma Quadrant and try to contact the Dominion. Sure, they're hostile, but at least they know each other.
I dunno. She just constantly took the worst possible course of action for the worst possible reasons.
Oh, and as for strong female characters: the way to write a strong female character is to not try to write a strong female character. If you're trying to be politically correct, you've already failed, because you're engaging in tokenism. Just write realistic characters, and you should be fine. Jadzia, for example, is a case of a female character who was trying way too hard to be strong, and wound up just being an annoying chick with no accountability. Other than, it's true, that one time when Sisko talked to her. I should rewatch that scene; I don't recall whether he pointed out that it wouldn't be fair to Worf...
Oh and I definitely like Ezri much more than Jadzia. Any problems with her are solely because of her connection to the previous host.
No, no, no, no. She never showed any signs of psychopathy like a lack of remorse. That would be Ransom or the Kazon.
...
That's depression.
...
Better writing and show-running would have recognized and explored the obvious mental stress of the character that emerged over the years of inconsistent writing. They would have explored why Chakotay became so passive so quickly for a rebel leader. Why Paris fell in love with an abusive woman. Why Kim... um... was just there and never grew?
Like I said, Janeway is dark and troubled. Far darker and troubled than anyone on DS9.
1. The Kazon are an unrealistic raider culture with an unsustainable society. They were poorly conceived from the get-go, and are pretty much all evil, but psychotic? No. Just terrible people.
2. Ransom and Janeway only differ in how good their ships look.
3. And depression is a clinically-diagnosable, chemically-treatable mental illness.
4. I agree absolutely here; Chakotay, Paris, and Kim especially need better writing. And Torres needs to be written more as a Klingon woman and less as an abusive spouse.
But we've already established that the writing on Voyager sucked major *ss.
5. Sure. And I would say that she goes over the line into psychosis.
See, troll boy, this is plain and simple. Plot necessity is the ONLY thing protecting Janeway's psychotic, megalomaniacal TRIBBLE from being kicked out of Starfleet and/or executed outright.
Precisely...
I only pulled up breaches she committed during the Equinox Debacle... There would be more of the same most episodes... A deeply flawed character...
Janeway strikes me as the quintessential Starfleet captain. Inconsistent, inefficient, and worshiped by a crew too afraid to stand up to her. It's no surprise the Federation promoted her.
I think Janeway getting her crew home safely was a good thing. Is that enough?
No. It's not enough. On her way home, she committed negligent genocide, allied with the f*cking BORG, and openly murdered one of her crewmen. She's no better than Ransom.
I understand what the discussion is. All I'm pointing out is that you all have your opinion on her and then there is the (fictional) reality.
Answer the damn question.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
See, troll boy, this is plain and simple. Plot necessity is the ONLY thing protecting Janeway's psychotic, megalomaniacal TRIBBLE from being kicked out of Starfleet and/or executed outright.
Not to nitpick but I'd venture to guess the Federation doesn't use the death penalty. Life in prison, though...
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Not to nitpick but I'd venture to guess the Federation doesn't use the death penalty. Life in prison, though...
Sure. So the only reason Janeway's not cooling her heels at Facility 4028 is plot necessity.
Damn it, if she were a Klingon...she would've been executed the moment she got home for a whole heap of dishonor. That, or killed by her poorly-written XO in episode 5 (or thereabouts).
Not to nitpick but I'd venture to guess the Federation doesn't use the death penalty. Life in prison, though...
In Nemesis, Janeway's desk kept her tracking anklet from view... 500 yards off the grounds of Starfleet command, and ZzZzZzZzZzzZzzZzZzZzZ!!! Kathy's twitching on the floor and needing a change of underwear
3. And depression is a clinically-diagnosable, chemically-treatable mental illness.
It sure is. And this is something that should have been explored. The show runners were not good enough to recognize the sort of character they had accidentally created and use it to full effect.
But to call her a psychopath on par with Ransom is incorrect. That is not the character that emerged.
And Sisko was an accessory to murder. Kirk violated so many rules and regulations it's hard to keep track of them all. Those 2 guys from the DoTA referred to Kirk as a "menace". Picard violated the Prime Directive on many different occasions.
So what?
They got called out for it. Kirk even got demoted and nearly got his *ss kicked out of Starfleet. Janeway got off due to plot necessity.
Also, being an accessory to murder is to aiding and abetting the Borg in the attempted genocide of the Undine species as a toy sailboat is to the RMS Titanic.
And others say the circumstances do justify her actions. That's the nice thing about forums and open discussion among adults. People can discuss, debate and agree to disagree.
And you're doing none of that. You're just trolling.
And extenuating circumstances do NOT cover allying with the Borg.
Comments
Precisely.
Ransom technically did nothing wrong, according to a strict reading of Starfleet regs, and neither did Janeway.
They both committed outright evil acts for the same reason, though.
Oh but they did. That's why she was pulled from active command and sidelined as a desk jockey a command... The fact hat she got Voyager home was probably the only thing that kept her from being dishonourably discharged. Actually, what I've posted explains very clearly why Captain Janeway is unfit to wear a Starfleet uniform, let alone command a starship... And all your pissy whining won't change that fact...
Why don't you take your head out of your TRIBBLE and answer the call for evidence I made several pages ago?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Not the point. In-universe, what Janeway did was morally wrong. And the show's premise doesn't matter.
Inasmuch as "Scorpion" even HAS a point, marcus got it. Stop just brushing aside peoples' statements.
Not true. Janeway was only promoted due to plot necessity, and we aren't discussing whether the Federation approved of Janeway's actions. We are discussing whether what she did is absolutely legal and/or ethical.
And her actions were neither legal nor ethical under Federation law and conventional humanoid morals.
Not. The. Point. As I said above.
The premise for the show? Who cares how long it took them to get there... Stasis was used in an episode when plot dictated, so there is equally no reason why it could not have been used then (other than plot necessity)
Address the points. Do you deny that Janeway's actions were actionable under those examples of the UCMJ?
See, troll boy, this is plain and simple. Plot necessity is the ONLY thing protecting Janeway's psychotic, megalomaniacal TRIBBLE from being kicked out of Starfleet and/or executed outright.
starswordc, because he's trolling and isn't actually interested in what we have to say. Note that he's never noted a single good thing that Janeway did, or even really a reason why the things she did weren't outright evil. He's just pleading extenuating circumstances in every case.
No, no, no, no. She never showed any signs of psychopathy like a lack of remorse. That would be Ransom.
Look at how she's played (Yay for Kate Mulgrew!) when she does something she hates. She's swallowing her self-loathing and remorse for what she has done. That's why her voice was always cracking. When she has to fight a species that could have been friends it's not anger you see as you would with a psychopath, it's sadness. She was tightly wound the entire seven years and a future version of herself commited suicide in Endgame.
That's depression.
Common expressions of depression tend to be anger, risky behaviour, and bouncing between highs and lows. Janeway was depressed. Picard had a ship's counselor to help him. Janeway just had Chakotay saying vague New-age woo at her. Keeping the crew alive was all she had as a support structure. That's why her obsession for Seven. And why Seven always hurt her so easily when she rebelled against the starship's social order.
Better writing and show-running would have recognized and explored the obvious mental stress of the character that emerged over the years of inconsistent writing. They would have explored why Chakotay became so passive so quickly for a rebel leader. Why Paris fell in love with an abusive woman. Why Kim... um... was just there and never grew?
Like I said, Janeway is dark and troubled. Far darker and troubled than anyone on DS9.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
So...you think that Janeway's justifications are absolute, but nothing else?
TRIBBLE that, you hypocritical troll.
And AGAIN, we're discussing whether what Janeway did is legal and/or ethical, not whether the Federation did anything about it.
Irrelevant, plus deflection. See here:
http://www.springhole.net/writing/responsiblewriting.htm
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
To be honest, the Tuvix thing doesn't bother me that much, although I admittedly haven't seen the episode itself. Even Scorpion doesn't really get to me, although I would point out that Janeway had no real indication that the Undine were hostile. Her rationale seems to have been, other than the "the weak shall perish" line that could have meant almost anything, and could in fact have been Kes's imagination for all she knew, was that an Undine attacked and nearly killed Harry...when they boarded its ship without permission and started examining it. I mean, I wouldn't say that he deserved it, but you can't really blame the pilot either.
What does get to me is the fact that Janeway constantly gets in the way and does stupid things for no reason. What she should have immediately done upon reaching the Delta Quadrant (if we ignore whatever methods she could have used during the Caretaker incident to get home) was find allies with powerful technology. Actually, an alliance with the Borg could have been a very good idea, although not for the reasons used: they have transwarp, and it seems like they might have been able to come to an arrangement. Then again, that has more to do with my view of the Borg and how they're needlessly destructive when they really don't need to be hostile at all, so.
An alliance with the Undine could have worked too. There might have been a way to use fluidic space to get home, in return for their experience with the Borg. Or, you know, just ask Q nicely, instead of being a moron when he showed up. Or, head into the Gamma Quadrant and try to contact the Dominion. Sure, they're hostile, but at least they know each other.
I dunno. She just constantly took the worst possible course of action for the worst possible reasons.
Oh, and as for strong female characters: the way to write a strong female character is to not try to write a strong female character. If you're trying to be politically correct, you've already failed, because you're engaging in tokenism. Just write realistic characters, and you should be fine. Jadzia, for example, is a case of a female character who was trying way too hard to be strong, and wound up just being an annoying chick with no accountability. Other than, it's true, that one time when Sisko talked to her. I should rewatch that scene; I don't recall whether he pointed out that it wouldn't be fair to Worf...
Oh and I definitely like Ezri much more than Jadzia. Any problems with her are solely because of her connection to the previous host.
1. The Kazon are an unrealistic raider culture with an unsustainable society. They were poorly conceived from the get-go, and are pretty much all evil, but psychotic? No. Just terrible people.
2. Ransom and Janeway only differ in how good their ships look.
3. And depression is a clinically-diagnosable, chemically-treatable mental illness.
4. I agree absolutely here; Chakotay, Paris, and Kim especially need better writing. And Torres needs to be written more as a Klingon woman and less as an abusive spouse.
But we've already established that the writing on Voyager sucked major *ss.
5. Sure. And I would say that she goes over the line into psychosis.
Precisely...
I only pulled up breaches she committed during the Equinox Debacle... There would be more of the same most episodes... A deeply flawed character...
Hehe, that's actually pretty funny.
Yup, I agree with all of that (snipped for space).
TEHO, but I preferred Jadzia. She's woman enough for Worf.
I consider any woman who Worf dates to be automatically awesome. Plus the Borg Queen and Troi Senior, because they are super awesome.
Stop deflecting and dodging the question and JUST ANSWER IT ALREADY.
And try to be less of a hypocritical troll.
It doesn't exactly help yours, either. And it's not name-calling, because you are clearly trolling. Now answer starswordc's question or GTFO.
Prove it.
No. It's not enough. On her way home, she committed negligent genocide, allied with the f*cking BORG, and openly murdered one of her crewmen. She's no better than Ransom.
Um...no.
I'm saying that the circumstances don't justify a single thing that Janeway did.
So give us some real, actual arguments in Janeway's defense or GTFO.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Not to nitpick but I'd venture to guess the Federation doesn't use the death penalty. Life in prison, though...
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Sure. So the only reason Janeway's not cooling her heels at Facility 4028 is plot necessity.
Damn it, if she were a Klingon...she would've been executed the moment she got home for a whole heap of dishonor. That, or killed by her poorly-written XO in episode 5 (or thereabouts).
It sure is. And this is something that should have been explored. The show runners were not good enough to recognize the sort of character they had accidentally created and use it to full effect.
But to call her a psychopath on par with Ransom is incorrect. That is not the character that emerged.
Also, being an accessory to murder is to aiding and abetting the Borg in the attempted genocide of the Undine species as a toy sailboat is to the RMS Titanic. And you're doing none of that. You're just trolling.
And extenuating circumstances do NOT cover allying with the Borg.